Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

snubbleste

Was anyone just watching the NHK World english news? The newsreader was about to talk about the nuclear plant explosion today and a hand reached in to the desk, just above the bottom of the camera shot, ruffled some papers on the desk and jabbed at some other story..which the reader then began to read.
It was comical..maybe they are on a shoestring budget

maquiladora

(Reuters) - Nuclear fuel rods at a quake-stricken Japanese nuclear reactor are now fully exposed, Jiji news agency said, quoting the plant's operator, Tokyo Eletcric Power Co .

The report referred to the Fukushima Daiichi complex's No.2 reactor, where levels of water coolant around the reactor core had been reported as falling earlier in the day.

The Jiji report said a meltdown of the fuel rods could not be ruled out. A meltdown raises the risk of damage to the reactor vessel and a possible radioactive leak, experts say.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/japan-quake-rods-idUSTKB00733720110314

@couriermail Tokyo Electric now saying they cannot rule out the possibility that Fukushima No. 2 Reactor is in the midst of full meltdown.

mike65

Anyone know if liquid hydrogen would be effective? Could it be used in enough quantity?

Hank Scorpio

Not looking positive at the moment is it

Rob A. Bank

How long before we get another nuclear comical Ali telling us that
'these explosions are good'
'all is under control'.
'Ignore the evidence of your eyes'
'There is no significant radiation' just as the American carrier scurries away from the coast to avoid exposing its crew to further radiation.

We are being fed a tissue of lies and the nuclear industry are doing themselves no favours by continuing with this shoddy deception.

Mr Benevolent

Damn it. If that report is correct there's no way back now.

fakearms123

Ireland is the perfect place for Nuclear plants, we have wide open space, no earthquakes or other natural disaters and we're surrounded by water

Mr Benevolent

mike65 wrote: »

Anyone know if liquid hydrogen would be effective? Could it be used in enough quantity?

No, it'd just explode (well, burn very rapidly). Temps will be climbing well beyond water's boiling point now. The only way to solve this now is sand, lead and boron. The Chernobyl way. That said, as long as there isn't another explosion while the fuel is melting the radiation might be contained. Onces the temps pass steel's melting point it's going to breach the reactor containment though.

Le King

Don't understand why Japan are playing down the health risk here.

Low-level radiation has been detected as far as 200 KM off shore.

The potential for a Chernobyl is there but not nearly as likely.

This is very bad news for Japan.

Does anyone know if the Diesel generators are operating? and are all the rods fully inserted.

maquiladora

Confab wrote: »

Damn it. If that report is correct there's no way back now.

Maybe they can get water back in there.

Mr Benevolent

maquiladora wrote: »

Maybe they can get water back in there.

It'd just boil off instantly and create a steam explosion and resulting radioactive release. That's IF the core is in the middle of a full meltdown. A loss of coolant accident (LOCA) is the worst case scenario for any nuclear reactor.

are all the rods fully inserted.

They would be, but without any coolant it's academic. The rods are only able to absorb 1-2% of the neutrons, not nearly enough to control a runaway meltdown.

SeaFields

mike65 wrote: »

Anyone know if liquid hydrogen would be effective? Could it be used in enough quantity?

I think you mean liquid nitrogen? the really really cold stuff?

yeah, I wonder if that would be any use?

daelight

The fuel in the pump had run out.. they have re-fueled it and now water inside is rising again.

The Sparrow

SeaFields wrote: »

I think you mean liquid nitrogen? the really really cold stuff?

yeah, I wonder if that would be any use?

I presume that if that was a possibility it would have been considered by now. I've no idea how nitrogen would react to the extreme heat in a reactor, but my guess is not well.

And adding more hydrogen would just be a complete disaster and cause more explosions AFAIK.

maquiladora

daelight wrote: »

The fuel in the pump had run out.. they have re-fueled it and now water inside is rising again.

Good news.

Storm 10

Video of the Japanese Air Force base and damaged F18 fighter jets

Link: http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=2973&thisSection=military

Le King

Confab wrote: »

No, it'd just explode (well, burn very rapidly). Temps will be climbing well beyond water's boiling point now. The only way to solve this now is sand, lead and boron. The Chernobyl way. That said, as long as there isn't another explosion while the fuel is melting the radiation might be contained. Onces the temps pass steel's melting point it's going to breach the reactor containment though.

Seriously? The reactor at Fukushima is around 450 megawatt not like Chernobyl's 1000 megawatt.

Molten fuel is obviously going to be expected to spread out. Radiation? You quite simply don't grasp the word if you think it might be contained.

Also 2200 deg F and the clad will melt.

Soviets tried Liquid Nitrogen for Chernobyl. Let's just say it was a disaster.

Mr Benevolent

Le King wrote: »

Seriously? The reactor at Fukushima is around 450 megawatt not like Chernobyl's 1000 megawatt.

Molten fuel is obviously going to be expected to spread out. Radiation? You quite simply don't grasp the word if you think it might be contained.

I was being fairly conservative. I agree it's not likely that the radiation will be contained. I know what's going to happen.

MayoForSam

The Sparrow wrote: »

I presume that if that was a possibility it would have been considered by now. I've no idea how nitrogen would react to the extreme heat in a reactor, but my guess is not well.

And adding more hydrogen would just be a complete disaster and cause more explosions AFAIK.

Adding cryogenic cooling like liquid nitrogen to the mix would not work as it would just flash off and cause an even greater pressure increase inside the chamber. Water works best as it won't boil immediately and under normal circumstances you can keep it flowing over the rods transferring heat into the liquid medium (which has a much higher heat capacity than a gaseous material). However, continuous pumping won't work here very well as what do you do with the highly radioactive outflow?

I read in the NY Times article that the back-up diesel generators for the coolant were located at a lower level in the plant surrounded by sea walls. Someone decided that the sea walls were high enough to protect the generators in the event of tsunami - obviously they were not. Now the whole area is submerged including the switchgear needed if they can get the power back on. Talk about a FUBAR.

opinion guy

mike65 wrote: »

Anyone know if liquid hydrogen would be effective? Could it be used in enough quantity?

Liquid hydrogen vaporises at 20Kelvin i.e. -253 celsius. You poor it into a melting down nuclear core, assuming you could get the large quantities of stupdily expensive and hard to make liquid hydrogen, there would be just one result - BOOM

daelight wrote: »

The fuel in the pump had run out.. they have re-fueled it and now water inside is rising again.

What ? Are you ****ting me ? have you a source for this ?

Zillah

It is physically impossible for a modern reactor like the ones in Japan to have a disaster like Chernobyl. To make a disaster like that we would literally have to stop the current melt down, rebuild the power plant with an entirely different/older design and trigger a new meltdown and watch it go. Chernobyl was a perfect storm of stupidity and terrible design.

The media loves talking about nuclear disaster, but mark my words: Worst case scenario is a small amount of localised radiation. The reactor used in Fukushima is a light water reactor...the hotter it gets the more the reaction slows down, the exact opposite of Chernobyl.

Fuck the media whenever they try to report anything about science.

Le King

MayoForSam wrote: »

Adding cryogenic cooling like liquid nitrogen to the mix would not work as it would just flash off and cause an even greater pressure increase inside the chamber. Water works best as it won't boil immediately and under normal circumstances you can keep it flowing over the rods transferring heat into the liquid medium (which has a much higher heat capacity than a gaseous material). However, continuous pumping won't work here very well as what do you do with the highly radioactive outflow?

I read in the NY Times article that the back-up diesel generators for the coolant were located at a lower level in the plant surrounded by sea walls. Someone decided that the sea walls were high enough to protect the generators in the event of tsunami - obviously they were not. Now the whole area is submerged including the switchgear needed if they can get the power back on. Talk about a FUBAR.

I agree but that is speculation as it has never been tested on a large scale basis as it has the potential to make a bad situation worse.

If the Diesel generators are not working then they are pretty much fcuked. The temp will eventually increase above 2200 and the clad will melt without the pumps.

AFAIK they are just pumping in water through diesel fire pumps. Only a matter of time tbh.

Best case is it's another TMI.

Bad news is that an off shore US Base have detected Iodine-131. They moved out immediately. This way 160KM off shore from the plant. Signs are very bad I'm afraid.

daelight

[QUOTE=

What ? Are you ****ting me ? have you a source for this ?[/QUOTE]

TEPCO said this in a press conference tonight - I am not sh****ting you.

Would you like a refund?

Brenireland

maquiladora wrote: »

I don't think things are quite that bad.

maybe not,who knows...:p

mike65

opinion guy wrote: »

Liquid hydrogen vaporises at 20Kelvin i.e. -253 celsius. You poor it into a melting down nuclear core, assuming you could get the large quantities of stupdily expensive and hard to make liquid hydrogen, there would be just one result - BOOM

I didn't think mixing very cold and very hot would be clever but thought I'd ask!

That username is already in use.

12:03 Possible damage to fuel rod - nkh

maquiladora

NEWS ADVISORY: Steam being released at No. 2 reactor of Fukushima nuke plant (20:57)

mandrake04

Le King wrote: »

Bad news is that an off shore US Base have detected Iodine-131. They moved out immediately. This way 160KM off shore from the plant. Signs are very bad I'm afraid.

Thats not good.

Le King

Zillah wrote: »

It is physically impossible for a modern reactor like the ones in Japan to have a disaster like Chernobyl. To make a disaster like that we would literally have to stop the current melt down, rebuild the power plant with an entirely different/older design and trigger a new meltdown and watch it go. Chernobyl was a perfect storm of stupidity and terrible design.

The media loves talking about nuclear disaster, but mark my words: Worst case scenario is a small amount of localised radiation. The reactor used in Fukushima is a light water reactor...the hotter it gets the more the reaction slows down, the exact opposite of Chernobyl.

Fuck the media whenever they try to report anything about science.

While I agree, I think you are underestimating. This power plant has no use of the diesel generators. An absolutely shocking design flaw. We aren't facing Chernobyl. But the potential for a huge disaster is there. Just not the level or scale of Chernobyl.

The Sparrow

It would be really handy if some links to the sources of these updates were posted.