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Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

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  • Registered Users Posts: 707 ✭✭✭Luxie


    bradlente wrote: »
    Fair dues to the lads updating this thread,it's been better than any news coverage I've been watching.

    Totally agree.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭Brenireland


    It would be really handy if some links to the sources of these updates were posted. :)

    :) I agree


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    Kyodo:

    # NEWS ADVISORY: Seawater pumping resumes at 2 reactors of Fukushima nuke plant: Edano (21:09)
    # BREAKING NEWS: Fuel rods of No. 2 reactor of Fukushima plant may have partially melted: TEPCO (21:08)


  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭That username is already in use.


    It would be really handy if some links to the sources of these updates were posted. :)
    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,778 ✭✭✭✭ninebeanrows


    Don't know lads.

    At first i thought the media was exaggerating this but then i thought about it.

    We have three reactors in series trouble. One possible in meltdown.

    The authorities cannot evacuate people, there is nowhere to go.

    The US ship 200km away recording that radiation rise also raises skepticism.

    It is a difficult situation but i would not be surprised if the local Authorities are not telling us the full truth.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Le King wrote: »
    But the potential for a huge disaster is there.

    Not really. Even if the core is completely compromised, the entire mass falls into a concrete containment enclosure. It would have to be a runaway fission reaction to be hot enough to melt through that, and that is fundamentally impossible because of the type of reactor. The facility could be completely ruined, which would cost billions and deprive them of a power generating facility, but the fallout is minimal.

    I am going to take a nap now, if there has been a disaster by the time I wake up I will eat my hat.


  • Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭daelight


    It would be really handy if some links to the sources of these updates were posted. :)

    My updates are coming from a TV in Tokyo, difficult to link to am afraid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭Setun


    For anybody looking for specific answers re the nuclear situation, the guardian has a live Q&A session with experts at 1pm: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/14/japan-tsunami-nuclear-alert-live-coverage#block-37


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Sparks43


    daelight wrote: »
    My updates are coming from a TV in Tokyo, difficult to link to am afraid.


    Some of these might help


    TBS: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/tbstv
    TV Asahi: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/annnews
    NHK: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-gtv


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭Le King


    Zillah wrote: »
    Not really. Even if the core is completely compromised, the entire mass falls into a concrete containment enclosure. It would have to be a runaway fission reaction to be hot enough to melt through that, and that is fundamentally impossible because of the type of reactor. The facility could be completely ruined, which would cost billions and deprive them of a power generating facility, but the fallout is minimal.

    I am going to take a nap now, if there has been a disaster by the time I wake up I will eat my hat.

    Structurally it's done the job. I'm not talking about a major release disaster. I'm talking about the cost of reparations. Which is a huge disaster. I'll reserve any judgement until we know the water levels etc. The plant is already a write off. This is a disaster.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,525 ✭✭✭kona


    Confab wrote: »
    It'd just boil off instantly and create a steam explosion and resulting radioactive release. That's IF the core is in the middle of a full meltdown. A loss of coolant accident (LOCA) is the worst case scenario for any nuclear reactor.

    They dont put water into the cooling system at 1Bar , they need to put it in at 150BAr this will raise the Boiling point up around 400 degrees. If you have the figures you could work out how much water you need to cool the plant effectivley, Im sure their Engineers have all this worked out.

    The reactor core is 6 inch thick Steel, Inside a 4ft steel reinforced concrete dome, which is inside a 6ft thick Steel reinforced Building. As explosive as high pressure steam is, I doubt it will blow the place apart.

    Confab wrote: »
    They would be, but without any coolant it's academic. The rods are only able to absorb 1-2% of the neutrons, not nearly enough to control a runaway meltdown.

    Once the control rods are fully in the reaction effectivley stops. Add in the Boron they are putting in, I doubt there is much reaction going on. The reactors are shut down, the issue is that the Fuel is so hot and remains extremely hot even after shut down. The longer we go without a major incident the better it looks.
    The Reactor in Question is a Boiling water Reactor I dont know a whole lot about the Nuclear physics side but Id know abit about the Thermodynamic side, Its coolant that is in direct contact with the core is used to turn to Superheated steam and turn the Turbines. This coolant itself is radioactive, however it quickley decays when vented, Id suspect this venting is accountable for alot of the radiation detected. Eitherway there will be no runaway reaction as the control rods are in and neutron absorbtion is happening.

    The media are creating drama in a already overly dramatic situation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    More details here in this new article :

    http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/77870.html

    It seems the explosion at No.3 damaged the 5 fire pumps that were pumping seawater and now only 1 is working.


  • Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭daelight


    Rolling blackouts were supposed to be enforced throughout Tokyo today - 3 hours at a time in 5 groups. Today however, it was a bit of a mess of confusion and so they did not implement.

    From tomorrow they implement. People are being asked to reduce light usage, heating etc as well. Convenience stores are switching off lights and unplugging superfluous advertising.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    There are some photographs of the Fukushima I nuclear power site, taken after the second explosion hosted on ABC Good Morning America's facebook :

    http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150106688152061&set=a.10150106688057061.279900.59306617060&pid=6978235&id=59306617060

    They are absolutely terrifying looking! Reactor #3's building looks extensively damaged after that explosion.

    I am wondering how are they physically accessing the reactor at all given how bad it looks!

    Really terrifying stuff. I hope we are not looking at a really nasty nuclear mess over the coming days.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    mike65 wrote: »
    I didn't think mixing very cold and very hot would be clever but thought I'd ask!

    Its not really about the hot and cold aspect of it - more the fact that hydrogen is explosive. To be honest with you I'm not sure if liquid hydrogen can explode...perhaps it could burn like burning oil.....but certainly once it goes above -253C it woudl vaporise and could explode....and it would go above -253C pretty darn quickly if you poured it onto a melting nuclear reactor!


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,264 ✭✭✭✭Standard Toaster


    Some interesting reading here re the earthquake:

    Day the Earth moved: How the earthquake tilted the world's axis by 25cm (and could even cost us a microsecond a day)

    (Dailymail....I know I know!)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭Aldebaran




  • Posts: 6,025 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Small report here about the US 7th fleet . 17 US Navy crew members contaminated with Low levels of radiation.

    link from RSOE EDIS


    .
    Seventeen U.S. Navy crew members have been contaminated with low-levels of radiation during disaster relief missions in Japan, military officials said Monday. The radioactivity was detected when the service members returned to the aircraft carrier Ronald Reagan aboard three helicopters. They were treated with soap and water and their clothes were discarded. "No further contamination was detected," the military said. The helicopters were also decontaminated. The U.S. 7th Fleet, positioned about 100 miles northeast of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant to deliver aid to Japan's coastal region, moved its ships further away due to "airborne radioactivity" and contamination found on its planes. The military noted, however, that the level of contamination was very low, and the ship movement was merely a precaution. "For perspective, the maximum potential radiation dose received by any ship's force personnel aboard the ship when it passed through the area was less than the radiation exposure received from about one month of exposure to natural background radiation from sources such as rocks, soil, and the sun," the Navy said. The Fukushima nuclear power plant suffered a second explosion Sunday. At least six workers at the plant were injured in the blast, officials said. A smaller explosion rocked the plant on Saturday. Radioactive steam was vented recently from the plant in order to ease pressure on the reactors and prevent another meltdown, CNN reported. It is believe that a meltdown previously occurred in at least one of the reactors in the last few days. "We remain totally committed to our mission of providing assistance to the people of Japan," Navy spokesman Jeff Davis said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,614 ✭✭✭The Sparrow


    Interesting article from the NY Times on the Mechanics of a Partial Meltdown.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,551 ✭✭✭SeaFields


    There seems to be a good few posters who have a good knowledge of the potential nuclear situation and the physics of it all.

    Can I ask how serious is it at the mo in laymans terms?

    Say if Chernobyl was 10, on a scale of 1-10

    -what is the situation now ?
    -what would be the worst case scenario?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,134 ✭✭✭✭maquiladora


    SeaFields wrote: »
    There seems to be a good few posters who have a good knowledge of the potential nuclear situation and the physics of it all.

    Can I ask how serious is it at the mo in laymans terms?

    Say if Chernobyl was 10, on a scale of 1-10

    -what is the situation now ?
    -what would be the worst case scenario?

    There is actually an International Nuclear Event Scale. It runs from 1 -7.

    Chernobyl is the only number 7 event recorded, Fukushima is currently a number 4.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,485 ✭✭✭Thrill


    Is the 20km zone around the plant wide enough?

    USS Ronald Reagan aircraft carrier has suspended aid missions and changed course after radiation amounting to a months worth in one hour was detected, 160km from the plant.


    The distance between Fukushima and Tokyo is somewhere around 250km. Hopefully the wind continues to blow out towards the ocean.





  • Registered Users Posts: 469 ✭✭geetar


    SeaFields wrote: »
    There seems to be a good few posters who have a good knowledge of the potential nuclear situation and the physics of it all.

    Can I ask how serious is it at the mo in laymans terms?

    Say if Chernobyl was 10, on a scale of 1-10

    -what is the situation now ?
    -what would be the worst case scenario?


    just watching sky news, and the "chief-nuclear-something-or-other" guy from the uk was quite clear in stateing, that the worst possible outcome, which is very unlikely, wouldnt compare to chernobyl at all. he made it clear that chernobyl burnt for days, with a fully exposed core and released radioactive fallout tens of thousands of feet into the air.

    he said fukishima would at worst meltdown, burn for a few hours, and release radioactive fallout a few hundred feet into the air.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,536 ✭✭✭Dolph Starbeam


    copy and paste plz
    The difference between a partial meltdown and a full meltdown at a nuclear plant is enormous, both in the degree of damage and in the potential release of radiation, experts in nuclear power said. Enlarge This Image
    meltdown-2-articleInline.jpg
    Kyodo/Reuters

    One of the two nuclear plants in Fukushima Prefecture in northern Japan where partial meltdowns have taken place.



    Multimedia


    reactor190b.png Interactive Feature
    The Crippled Japanese Nuclear Reactors





    Related


    Related in Opinion


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    A blog about energy and the environment.
    Go to Blog »



    A partial meltdown, like those suspected at two reactors in northeastern Japan over the weekend, may not necessarily mean that any of the uranium fuel in the core has melted, experts said. The fuel rods may be only damaged, a portion of them having been left uncovered by cooling water long enough to crack, allowing the release of some radioactive elements in the fuel.
    But in a full meltdown — which could occur within hours if all cooling water was lost and the rods became completely uncovered — melting is all but guaranteed, as thousands of fuel pellets fall to the bottom of the reactor and heat themselves into a molten pool at several thousand degrees Fahrenheit.
    While it is considered highly unlikely that a full meltdown would result in a nuclear chain reaction, experts said, such lava-like fuel might breach the reactor’s pressure vessel and then its containment, leading to widespread release of radioactivity.
    To avoid such a catastrophe, workers at the two reactors have tried to pump enough seawater into them to keep the cores completely covered. But unless normal cooling systems can be restored, they will have to keep pumping seawater for weeks.
    “You’re looking at several thousands of gallons a day potentially out as long as a year,” said Arnold Gundersen, a former nuclear engineer who worked on reactors of the same design as those in Japan.
    The Japanese reactors, made by General Electric and built in the 1970s, have thousands of thin, 12-foot-long fuel rods stacked like straws inside a pressure vessel made of steel up to 6 inches thick. The rods, tubes made of a zirconium alloy, contain ceramic pellets of uranium oxide that are about the size of a fingertip.
    Ordinarily, this fuel core is kept submerged in water that circulates to remove the heat of nuclear fission, making steam that is used to turn turbines to generate electricity.
    With loss of power and pumps after the earthquake, the fission reactions at the plants were successfully halted. But there is much residual heat in the reactors, both because they operated at about 550 degrees Fahrenheit and because the radioactive elements in the fuel continue to produce heat as they decay. Without pumps to circulate the water, it will boil off quickly.
    That apparently is what happened at least one of the reactors, leaving the upper part of the cores uncovered until technicians, in what has been described as a desperate measure, rigged up a way to pump seawater in. The sea water is laced with boric acid, which would quench a fission reaction if one began.
    Once part of the core is exposed, the zirconium starts to oxidize, or rust, extremely rapidly, becoming brittle and cracking. The rusting also results in the production of explosive hydrogen; the cracking allows the most volatile radioactive elements in the fuel, like iodine and cesium, to escape. To prevent pressure buildup, the gases are allowed to vent into the containment, and in this case must have leaked or were vented through the containment into outside air.
    As the rods crack apart, the pellets inside them can start to fall out, which engineers call a washout.
    “There’s nothing holding them there,” said Margaret Harding, a consultant who worked on reactor designs for General Electric for 27 years. But since lower parts of the core are undamaged, the pellets may end up in various places around the reactor, not necessarily in a clump on the floor. “It’s not guaranteed you’re going to have melting,” she said.
    At the Three Mile Island accident in Pennsylvania in 1979, in which the core was partly uncovered, robotic cameras later determined that melting had occurred. In the Chernobyl accident in 1986, considered the world’s worst, a power surge led to explosions and a reactor fire, sending an enormous plume of radioactive material into the air.
    If a full meltdown were to occur at one of the Japanese reactors — meaning operators were unable to keep pumping water and the core became completely uncovered — molten fuel would soon pool on the floor of the pressure vessel. “The worst case is that the molten mass leaves the vessel and creates a steam explosion,” Mr. Gunderson said. “That would destroy the containment.”

    There


  • Registered Users Posts: 583 ✭✭✭PandyAndy


    copy and paste plz

    *removed text*

    See above :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Saadyst


    It's maddening how much scaremongering is actually present in the media. Obviously to grab as many readers as possible. Really pisses me off.

    Doesn't help when it's regurgitated without independent thought.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,933 ✭✭✭Logical Fallacy


    Saadyst wrote: »
    It's maddening how much scaremongering is actually present in the media. Obviously to grab as many readers as possible. Really pisses me off.

    Doesn't help when it's regurgitated without independent thought.

    This is a good read.

    http://www.informationdissemination.net/2011/03/fukushima-fud.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+InformationDissemination+%28Information+Dissemination%29


  • Registered Users Posts: 535 ✭✭✭Saadyst




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,485 ✭✭✭Thrill


    1. 1406: Concerns about a possible radiation leak from the Fukushima plant have sparked a run on iodine tablets in Finland, AFP reports. The country's nuclear safety chiefs say there is no need for people there to be buying iodine



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,842 ✭✭✭Rob A. Bank



    I was wondering when this article would show up here...

    "This post is by Dr Josef Oehmen, a research scientist at MIT, in Boston.
    He is a PhD Scientist, whose father has extensive experience in Germany’s nuclear industry."

    Turns out its written by a guy with a PhD in mechanical engineering and no qualifications the nuclear area... unless you count what his father did for a living.

    :-/


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