XF-S vs. 535d

VolvoMan

-Chris- wrote: »

How so?

Well the fact that all the best selling cars seem to hail from Germany tells that they weren't chosen on their strengths.

The Jag XF for instance is a better car than the 5 Series and twice as good as the A6.

Matt Simis

VolvoMan wrote: »

Well the fact that all the best selling cars seem to hail from Germany tells that they weren't chosen on their strengths.

Well thats a weird sort of logic.. Does the fact everycar in that list is European also hint at something negative!?

VolvoMan

Matt Simis wrote: »

Well thats a weird sort of logic.. Does the fact everycar in that list is European also hint at something negative!?

No, it's just that German cars have become so much the default choice in this segment that soon there will nearly be no alternative. I don't want to see that happen.

You see cars like the Granada/Scorpio and Opel Omega have disappeared, next we'll be seeing the likes of the S80 and 9-5 being discontinued. I don't know about you, but I value my ability to be individual.

Matt Simis

All true, but IMO a reflection on their competition and their poor Market suitability. I grew up with monza's and Omega's but they don't have the USP's of the audi or BMW.

Leonard Hofstadter

VolvoMan wrote: »

It goes to show, there are a lot of misguided people out there.

In fairness, with 95% of 5 series sold this year being the poverty spec 520d with only four rather than six cylinders, it is no surprise that the XF simply cannot compete with the 5 series on sales.

That the XF is a considerably better car than the 5 series I have no doubt, but the fact remains that the entry level XF is competing with the 530d and while that may be fine elsewhere, it does not work in Ireland. I'm sure the XF will sell much better when the four cylinder model, which will hopefully be in VRT band B, arrives in Ireland, and it should be available for next year's deliveries.

I think you're right on your general contention about the narrow mindedness of buyers in the category though. The executive car market begins and ends with BMW, Audi and Merc for most people, especially the chattering classes who want to be seen in the 'right' car, no matter how good or bad that car may be.

The XF could be half the price of a 5 series/E-class/A6 and about three times as good but I have no doubt that a substantial number of people will walk past the Jaguar dealer and straight into the premium German dealer instead, simply because the Jaguar doesn't have the 'heritage'/'prestige' or whatever made up excuse the sheep have decided to invent to convince themselves that a German car is best.

RedorDead

VolvoMan wrote: »

Well the fact that all the best selling cars seem to hail from Germany tells that they weren't chosen on their strengths.

The Jag XF for instance is a better car than the 5 Series and twice as good as the A6.

The Jaguar also sells for a much higher base price. Simple economics. When people dont need the horsepower of the Jaguar why would you pay the extra money for the 3.0 engine?

VolvoMan wrote: »

No, it's just that German cars have become so much the default choice in this segment that soon there will nearly be no alternative. I don't want to see that happen.

You see cars like the Granada/Scorpio and Opel Omega have disappeared, next we'll be seeing the likes of the S80 and 9-5 being discontinued. I don't know about you, but I value my ability to be individual.

No offence but probably for good reason. In this segment, with the exception of the Jaguar the germans do it better than anyone else.

VolvoMan

Matt Simis wrote: »

I grew up with monza's and Omega's but they don't have the USP's of the audi or BMW.

The sad thing is, the last Omega was easily a match for its German rivals. The quality and engineering was definitely there.

I don't know if anyone remembers the Senator, but that was at least as good as a 6 cylinder E34. It truly was a lovely thing with a silky smmoth engine and a sophisticated RWD chassis.

VolvoMan

RedorDead wrote: »

No offence but probably for good reason. In this segment, with the exception of the Jaguar the germans do it better than anyone else.

I can understand Mercedes and BMW, but what does Audi offer over the competition in this segment?

The A6 handles poorly, has a rock hard ride and is about to be replaced by a new model that looks the exact same. It is also the only FWD car out of the three.

RedorDead

VolvoMan wrote: »

I can understand Mercedes and BMW, but what does Audi offer over the competition in this segment?

The A6 handles poorly, has a rock hard ride and is about to be replaced by a new model that looks the exact same. It is also the only FWD car out of the three.

I take it you have driven the new car then to qualify that statement? :rolleyes:

You could also look at it the other way by saying it is also the only four wheel drive car out of the three.

Remember last December and January? RWD is always an advantage you know.

Ali Babba

The only time to buy a Jaguar is about 5-6 years down the road when the first owner has taken the hit on depreciation etc. I bought mine for pennies with a service history and the car never failed me to be fair. I know mine is the older model but I doubt they'll ever command any serious market share in Ireland, not nowadays anyway.

J77

Here's an up to date comparison of the f10 530d, e350 cdi and xf-s.

Would love to know where she's getting the 0-100 times though. The jag is meant to be 6.4 seconds. It's hardly a whole second off!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_be9bVpUqak

Casati

I have'nt been in the new 5 series but have been a passenger in both XF-S and E60 535d on the autobann. If you can live with the slightly smaller space and the likely higher depreciation then the Jag is really super - turn on the Sport selector and suspension lowers, pedal response changes and gear changes at max power, turn it to normal and it has the luxury and ride of a car a class above a 5 series.

535D prob has more poke but not enough to really make a difference/ Dash, seats and trim in the Jag are amazing. I like the 5 series but the 520d has cheapened the image a lot, something not likely to happen with the Jag- cant see them sticking a 2.0 TDCI from a Mondeo into it anytime soon.

-Chris-

Nope, they're apparently going Hybrid instead...


:(:(

J77

-Chris- wrote: »

Nope, they're apparently going Hybrid instead...


:(:(

Isn't it getting the 2.2 diesel?

SmartFox

I'll happily have an XF-S facelift once they have sorted out the Lexus GS front lights! :rolleyes:

Gorgeous car otherwise...

Mr.David

J77 wrote: »

Here's an up to date comparison of the f10 530d, e350 cdi and xf-s.

Would love to know where she's getting the 0-100 times though. The jag is meant to be 6.4 seconds. It's hardly a whole second off!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_be9bVpUqak

There are 3 versions of the 3.0 Diesel and the one she's driving seems to be the lowest. They do 0-60 in 7.6secs, 6.7secs and 5.9 secs.

The XF-S is 5.9 secs.

Mr.David

-Chris- wrote: »

Nope, they're apparently going Hybrid instead...


:(:(

J77 wrote: »

Isn't it getting the 2.2 diesel?

http://www.carsuk.net/jaguar-xf-2-2-litre-diesel-has-adrian-hallmark-confirmed-it/

I'm saying nothing :cool:

J77

Mr.David wrote: »

There are 3 versions of the 3.0 Diesel and the one she's driving seems to be the lowest. They do 0-60 in 7.6secs, 6.7secs and 5.9 secs.

The XF-S is 5.9 secs.

She calls it the XF-S. The 211ps version is pretty new also and doesn't have the kind of torque she's talking about.

VolvoMan

RedorDead wrote: »

I take it you have driven the new car then to qualify that statement? :rolleyes:

You could also look at it the other way by saying it is also the only four wheel drive car out of the three.

Any Audi I've ever been in has been the same, so it's unlikely to be any different. In everything bar the likes of the A3, the engine is mounted ahead of the front axle and nearly always results in a car that handles and rides poorly.

Bloody firm seats don't help either.

You could also look at it the other way by saying it is also the only four wheel drive car out of the three.

The E-Class is available with 4Matic and the 5 Series has some kind of AWD system also. I think it's only available on the continent though.

Mr.David

J77 wrote: »

She calls it the XF-S. The 211ps version is pretty new also and doesn't have the kind of torque she's talking about.

Yeah, but it could still be the lower powered version badged differently for the Indian market.

Either that or she's just got her 0-100kph figures completely wrong!

-Chris-

Mr.David wrote: »

http://www.carsuk.net/jaguar-xf-2-2-litre-diesel-has-adrian-hallmark-confirmed-it/

I'm saying nothing :cool:

J77 wrote: »

Isn't it getting the 2.2 diesel?

Cheers lads, I'm obviously looking at the wrong websites...

Any idea what VRT band that would put the XF into?

Hopefully it won't end up in Paddy spec with a loss of toys, a dechrome and 17" alloys.

Matt Simis

VolvoMan wrote: »

Any Audi I've ever been in has been the same, so it's unlikely to be any different. In everything bar the likes of the A3, the engine is mounted ahead of the front axle and nearly always results in a car that handles and rides poorly.

Bloody firm seats don't help either.

Your info is out of date, the A4 B8 and A5 platforms have the revised Engine placement (via the modular longitudinal architecture) which moves the engine rearward. This was brought in around 2008.
The front weight issue is only evident on FWD Audi's as their platform is designed for AWD, which is how they should be compared (and bought..).
I dont know what a boggo spec FWD Audi drives like, but none of the real Audi's I have had are in anyway represented by your comments.

Its a moot point, people who actually buy low spec FWD Audi's dont care about drive quality or else they would have bought the quattro model or something else.

VolvoMan wrote: »

The E-Class is available with 4Matic and the 5 Series has some kind of AWD system also. I think it's only available on the continent though.

4Matic is meant to be the worst AWD system out there. My understanding is its very heavily focused on electric diffs which eats brakes.
Regarding BMWs "X" AWD.. talking about Ireland/UK therefore not an option here.

Neither of them is comparable to actual quattro anyhow.

Leonard Hofstadter

Mr.David wrote: »

http://www.carsuk.net/jaguar-xf-2-2-litre-diesel-has-adrian-hallmark-confirmed-it/

I'm saying nothing :cool:

Half of me says it is a sad day that Jaguar have to put a common as muck four cylinder engine into the XF. Certainly a proper Jag has a minimum of six cylinders. I'm waiting for the day the XJ will once again have a V12!

But it makes a huge amount of sense in Europe - even in the UK it's the four cylinder diesels that make up the lion's share of sales in these type of cars these days - 70% of 5 series in the UK are 520ds now, and Audi says that 75% of new A6s will be the four cylinder 2.0 TDI. Obviously, Ireland being Ireland, that figure is even higher.

As long as Jaguar doesn't start replacing six cylinder engines with four cylinder engines (like BMW will soon be doing with their petrol engines) and doesn't go and make a front wheel drive car again (which BMW will also be doing), or start making cars that are not good to drive (which BMW managed with the F10), I don't really mind them doing this.

They don't really have a choice if they want to remain in business in the EU. Also, they cannot ignore the reality that it's what an ever increasing number of buyers are looking for. Given that Audi sells poshed up Polos and Golfs, and BMW will soon be selling wrong wheel drive cars, which go against everything a BMW stands for, I don't see how offering a four cylinder XF will drag them down - they've a long way to go if they want to cheapen their brand the way BMW and Audi have cheapened theirs.