Cornish Wrestling

KevinH

Nice demo of traditional Cornish wrestling here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyuKXGAXbVI

Does anyone in Ireland do this or similar traditional celtic wrestling ?

looks like bad judo

Chris89

lolf

arybvtcw0eolkf

KevinH wrote: »

Nice demo of traditional Cornish wrestling here:

Does anyone in Ireland do this or similar traditional celtic wrestling ?

Out of shape white belt Judoka do something similar

RNO

Celtic wrestling is still alive in Brittany:
http://www.mangoovideo.net/accueil-mainmenu-110/3-newsflash/67-le-gouren.html
They call it Gouren, I never see it myself but it's well know in this area.
Only two weigh category in traditional competition.

Niall Keane

Looked to me like a "fun" demo, I didn't expect to see any amazing changes or such, as the lads are probably related and just having a bit of craic at a fair not goin in for a European competition or such. A real wrestling match would be too slow to entertain the general public.
Really nice to see, the set up, a mainstream cultural celebration of martial arts, unfortunately Irish culture became too anglicised centuries ago and we don't have local festivals with turn up and try martial arts events. Well bar bull**** uniform / pyjama demos of dances etc. Celebrating other cultures.
I'd pay no heed to the negative comments OP as I said delivery of techniques looks relaxed but that's understandable, however the leverage points and techniques look similar to a lot of other martial arts but they would, liked the hip throws, we do it similarly in Wudang martial arts ie get right in with hip and throw him in direction of our strong leg so as not to fall down with him in a sloppy way. We do this as our empty hand throws translate directly into weapon work, not much point landing on top of a blade even if you slam and wind him ;-)

RNO

Is that "Irish Collar and Elbow Wrestling" is completely dead?
http://www.clannada.org/culture_wrestling.php

Sid_Justice

Every type of stand up grappling i've seen in a shirt/top/gi looks like good/bad judo. This includes that chinese jacket wrestling stuff.

Every type of stand up grappling i've seen that is barechested looks like good/bad freestyle.

RNO

That is to be narrow in a width world:
What about Kurash wrestling?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaH--CICAMI

Or Senegal:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so43Gndfegk&feature=related

Just two example, it's hundred of style with or without jacket and all as good but no media at all about it.

RNO

BTW, say that a style is bad wrestling or bad judo show that you watch it without understand that's not wrestling or judo...it's different.
It's something else, rules make the style, the area as well.
If the traditional style is playing in the mood, sandpit or sawdust that will make a big difference with your position, technically and stance.
And I don't even talk about some folk wrestling, like turkish one, with oily body.

One day I saw a judo competitor got submit again and again at training by a BJJ blue belt.
I never thought that judo was bad for ground work, I knew that rules in judo don't emphasis as much as BJJ.
Question of rules.
Simple as that.
When I watch BJJ, I don't say that it's bas judo.
When I watch judo I don't say that is bad sambo.
ect...

Doug Cartel

RNO wrote: »

BTW, say that a style is bad wrestling or bad judo show that you watch it without understand that's not wrestling or judo...it's different.
It's something else, rules make the style, the area as well.
If the traditional style is playing in the mood, sandpit or sawdust that will make a big difference with your position, technically and stance.
And I don't even talk about some folk wrestling, like turkish one, with oily body.

One day I saw a judo competitor got submit again and again at training by a BJJ blue belt.
I never thought that judo was bad for ground work, I knew that rules in judo don't emphasis as much as BJJ.
Question of rules.
Simple as that.
When I watch BJJ, I don't say that it's bas judo.
When I watch judo I don't say that is bad sambo.
ect...

I don't think they were making fun of the style itself, but rather the guys in the video who are making a pig's ear of it.

Dave Joyce

One of my lads from the Gaeltacht used to do Celtic wrestling and as far as I remember, it's part of the Highland Games. Unfortunately it seems to be far more popular in the other Celtic countries than this one.

Doug Cartel

They do Backhold style wrestling in the Highland games. It's fairly different as both competitors have to keep an under-over bear-hug grip the whole time, and as soon as any part of your body - aside form your feet - touches the ground, you lose.

Jumpy

I see the same thing outside supermacs every friday night.

Doesnt appear to be much skill as more "survival of the fattest"

arybvtcw0eolkf

RNO wrote: »

BTW, say that a style is bad wrestling or bad judo show that you watch it without understand that's not wrestling or judo...it's different.
It's something else, rules make the style, the area as well.
If the traditional style is playing in the mood, sandpit or sawdust that will make a big difference with your position, technically and stance.
And I don't even talk about some folk wrestling, like turkish one, with oily body.

One day I saw a judo competitor got submit again and again at training by a BJJ blue belt.
I never thought that judo was bad for ground work, I knew that rules in judo don't emphasis as much as BJJ.
Question of rules.
Simple as that.
When I watch BJJ, I don't say that it's bas judo.
When I watch judo I don't say that is bad sambo.
ect...

You think too much.

RNO

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Every type of stand up grappling i've seen in a shirt/top/gi looks like good/bad judo. This includes that chinese jacket wrestling stuff.

Every type of stand up grappling i've seen that is barechested looks like good/bad freestyle.

That was not about the video. But about every folk style.

I keep thinking Makikomi.

OLDMAN1

Camilo Thankful Chip wrote: »

You think too much.

You will never be accused of that!

Doug Cartel

So you see all these different styles. Some good, some bad, but none of them all that different. Is this really any surprise? We all have two arms and two legs, the mechanics of getting somebody to the ground is going to be the same, regardless of where you come from.

arybvtcw0eolkf

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

You will never be accused of that!

I'm paid from the neck down.

OLDMAN1

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Every type of stand up grappling i've seen in a shirt/top/gi looks like good/bad judo. This includes that chinese jacket wrestling stuff.

Every type of stand up grappling i've seen that is barechested looks like good/bad freestyle.

thanks for the clips RNO, here are some chinese wrestling clips, the judo guys should check the first one , the warm up???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d11musZQEk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZwdvkDeh7A


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKo1iyGYGOA

Sid_Justice

what's your point?

if it wasn't for the funny jackets those clips would be judo

Niall Keane

Maybe and I stress maybe, as I'm not going to assume his take on it, but from a shaui jiao background an art that's 4000 years old that influenced Nei Jia Chuan which was brought to Nagasaki in the 1600's by two Chen brothers to become jujitsu which transformed into Judo 150 years ago that to some - Judo looks like good/bad shaui jiao with funny "long sleeve" jackets!
As an earlier poster stated all such arts have their base, their objectives and in a sports context rules to develop such angles of understanding and skills, as such there are differences that the unaware and blinkered might see as weakness. I would rather see each art for it's positives and learn from it's angle of understanding, that's why when I competed I tried out jacket wrestling - shaui jioa, "no-gi" wrestling - tui shou, and kickboxing with throws - sanda , the competitions were open to all styles so you never knew what you would face which taught me to respect difference and try to increase my understanding, not assume i knew everything and view the world from a single viewpoint at the bottom of the proverbial well.
Btw the clips of african wrestling were very interesting, those guys probably never heard of Judo or any style practiced by board members here, and their entire village probably couldn't afford a single Judo Gi! Considering we all came out of Africa maybe only those guys would have the right to say what they see is good/ bad african martial arts :-)

Sid_Justice

as usual niall you fail to grasp what we're actually discussing and instead take an opportunity to go on a aimless rant about irrelevant nonsense.

Take irish, japanese, african, chinese and jamacian men and get them to practice jacket wrestling, regardless of culture the same successful approaches will dominate. Judo is the most refined and studied form of jacket wrestling. Every thought, principle, idea, strategy or other quasi-military gibberish you like to apply to martial arts that Shuai Jiao has, judo also has, but better. Why? because there has been more people practicing judo for longer.

RNO

We also could say that modern judo is a bad judo compare at Kano's judo.
What is different between them?
Rules, competition.
And that come from Kano, not from me.

Now, to be honest I don't know a lot about this sport.

OLDMAN1

Sid_Justice wrote: »

as usual niall you fail to grasp what we're actually discussing and instead take an opportunity to go on a aimless rant about irrelevant nonsense.

Take irish, japanese, african, chinese and jamacian men and get them to practice jacket wrestling, regardless of culture the same successful approaches will dominate. Judo is the most refined and studied form of jacket wrestling. Every thought, principle, idea, strategy or other quasi-military gibberish you like to apply to martial arts that Shuai Jiao has, judo also has, but better. Why? because there has been more people practicing judo for longer.

Once again sid , with the insults, i know Niall can go on a bit some times, but i would hardly call that a aimless rant, you wrestler, that weares those funny long sleeve jackets,there will be a small Shuai Jiao competition on in june , why dont you enter and give it a go? your more than welcome....

RNO- if your the same RNO im thinking of that has the freestyle background, your more than welcome as well...

RNO

@Oldman1, I'm the RNO you know if you're the old man I know.
Hope you didn't give me the same invite that you gave to Sidjustice.

Thanks for the invite but I'm not a "jacket guy", I come from a country were we live naked with cherry tree every where....the lala land...
Could you send me the date and the venue on my FB of this competition, I really would enjoy to see that.

Massimo Giorgianni

KevinH wrote: »

Nice demo of traditional Cornish wrestling here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyuKXGAXbVI

Does anyone in Ireland do this or similar traditional celtic wrestling ?

Hi ,
I practiced Gouren in Britany. The guys there are connected with a lot of traditional wrestling schools all across Europe ( + Senegal )and especially with Celtics ones. Before coming in Ireland I asked them if they knew any school in Ireland and they did not.
If any anybody has information about an Irish school or even a family that still has technical knowledge about Irish wrestling please flag it so I will pass them the info.

BTW: these Gouren guys were absolutely not interested in if their styles works in the street, is better or worse than other grappling styles ect..their first concern is to reintroduce Gouren in local society as part of their Celtic heritage + it s considered as a friendly game with its specific rules. Judoka and Sambo guys cross-trained few times per month with Gouren guys.

Sid_Justice

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Once again sid , with the insults, i know Niall can go on a bit some times, but i would hardly call that a aimless rant, you wrestler, that weares those funny long sleeve jackets,there will be a small Shuai Jiao competition on in june , why dont you enter and give it a go? your more than welcome....

RNO- if your the same RNO im thinking of that has the freestyle background, your more than welcome as well...

if its own at the end of june i'll give it a go

arybvtcw0eolkf

Jesus lads, I thought we were all having a bit of banter yesterday - leave it out with the insults ffs.

To put my own semi-serious head on for a moment..

The OP's clip, I doubt the lads in it are practicing any form of bad anything. I'd hazard a guess and say their having a light hearted, bit of craic demo at a village fair or something similar.

Niall Keane

Judo is the most refined and studied form of jacket wrestling. Every thought, principle, idea, strategy or other quasi-military gibberish you like to apply to martial arts that Shuai Jiao has, judo also has, but better.

No Sid, my dad's bigger than yours!!!:D

Sid, you forget who you a speaking to, most posters here have a fair bit of experience, and we all know for sure, that it’s about absorbing and being able to deliver all said thoughts, principles etc. and only one thing makes that happen, is the big secret.... practice.

leverage principles remain the same in all wrestling, as in the position of such biomechanical levers, sure their length may vary, due to rules or opportunity, gravity remains the same, rules certainly make things slightly different, so for eg. in tui shou I would apply a twisting pressure across the chest of an opponent while sweeping his feet from behind in a Nei Jia technique called "step back and repulse the monkey", there I'm not allowed to touch his face, in sanshou if opportunity allowed I would apply pressure to his face "rolling" it around his head in this same technique for a more efficacious, harder to resist throw. The lever is the same, my hip is the fulcrum, his upper body is moving back and down, his lower up and forward, just I've moved pressure down the lever arm so to speak, and added a neck lock, and so made it a more powerful harder to resist application? I have applied this throw myself in both formats of competition, so - same person, same technique, different rules... thats makes it a FACT that rules alter applications. I can imagine being able to hold on to the long sleeve changes things slightly too? Therefore working under rules no of us have "the" truth, we each of us have "our" truth, stuff that works for us, a mature martial artist knows this!

So when I saw the Op's clip I thought that's really cool, a bit of craic, and I thought that it was really cool that in 2011 in this part of Europe wrestling was on display as local culture, something that connected back to earlier martial culture. That's all. Didn't feel threatened by it, and need to dissmiss it, or contrast it against what I practiced? Really I felt a bit of regret, and thought wouldn't it be far cooler if instead of GAA matches the Gaelic League had instead gone with celebrating Celtic wrestling?

Sid_Justice

Neither threatened nor dismissing it, just it putting it in perspective along side similar martial arts. It has few if any intrinsic thing separating it from it other styles.

When people are presented with things that are virtually identical some people concentrate on the similarities and some people concentrate on the differences. You're the one that's defensive.

Niall Keane

As every artist knows "God is in the detail", maybe you're just a craftsman?

How am I defensive? I see difference and I welcome it, you see similarity and reject it. to welcome is to be open, to reject and dismiss is to defend, maybe its the other way around on your planet?

Sid_Justice

Maybe I'm a Scientist and I don't have much time for people with fetishes about Chinese martial arts and theories. Perhaps I see things for what they are rather than what's most aesthetically pleasing.

RNO

Ahahha....now the scientist come to educate all idiots...
That's good one.

The next episod:
@ing nazis"


Enough for me.
Have a good one.

arybvtcw0eolkf

RNO wrote: »

Ahahha....now the scientist come to educate all idiots...
That's good one.

The next episod:
@ing nazis"



Enough for me.
Have a good one.

Your doing that thinking stuff again!.

Right, there's little point in this thread staying open just so you guys can take pot shots at each other.

LOCKED.