Joan Burton's cabinet post (victim of sexism or not?)

The Waltzing Consumer

Temporary quotas? Joke

Stop with the sexism. If we should change anything, then cap spending on elections to give a more equal footing for all. But this nonsense of quotas. Women have the exact same chance as men. They might even have more since they outperform males in school/universities and they are far more women then men in teaching positions (which is one of the biggest ex-professions of TDs) so stop with sour grapes.

If a woman wants to run, then run, she will get the votes or she won't, like anyone else. Joan Burton was the first TD elected this year. We don't give a damn if she is a woman or man. This minority of women and men who want gender quotas are just so anti-sexist, they have become sexist.

PeakOutput

Macha wrote: »

You don't have to assume - it's the truth.

I've referred to some of the causes in our gendered primary and secondary school system in terms of careers that women and men choose. I think there's definitely more motivation for men to do well as they feel a sense of duty to be the bread-winner for their families. Plus the fact that men can't take any parental leave means that women take all the maternity leave.

In terms of sharing child care after that, I'm not sure it's so equally divided. Often, at that stage men are already earning more than their partners (the fact that men are normally older than their partners is a factor in this) and so it makes economic sense for the woman's career to go ion the the back burner. Maybe the attitudes of managers towards men looking for more flexibility is any issue? And our government isn't too bothered about subsidising childcare facilities for parents.

There is also research that shows that women are punished by men and women when asking for a raise or bonus. I'll try to find the link again. Let's be clear - women are very good at perpetuating old gender divides just as well as men. This isn't a blame game - it's about finding solutions that make things better for everyone concerned.

More generally, I think there are issues around confidence. There was a study done a few years ago whereby a job was advertised with a salary of €80k. No women applied. But when the same job was advertised with a salary of €40k, a number of women applied. Women are brought up to be the supporter, the nurturer, not the main attraction.

Of course these cultural values vary wildly from family to family all over the place but I think we're still very much behind the curve when it comes to gender equality. Family law very much discriminates against men and we still have a reference to the woman's work in the home in our constitution. I think most Scandinavians would be shocked at Article 41.2.

If your talking about attitudes fair enough but i think its important to acknowledge that there is no iegal or institutional impediment preventing women from doing exactly what they want.

I totally agree about parental leave though it should be open to both parents with a bonus of a few weeks if they split the time equally.

PeakOutput

metrovelvet wrote: »

You keep pointing to third level education as the marker of who is faring better and who isn't when we all know third level education means very little anymore.

how do we all know that? I certainly don't, there are plenty of third level qualifications that are a total waste but there are also plenty that are very important.

also the lack of respect for third level is not an international trend it is an irish one, world wide a third level education is still very relevant and important.

I would like to be shown one piece of research that shows a third level education makes little or no difference in a persons medium to long term income and quality of life

Im Only 71Kg

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Temporary quotas? Joke

Stop with the sexism. If we should change anything, then cap spending on elections to give a more equal footing for all. But this nonsense of quotas. Women have the exact same chance as men. They might even have more since they outperform males in school/universities and they are far more women then men in teaching positions (which is one of the biggest ex-professions of TDs) so stop with sour grapes.

If a woman wants to run, then run, she will get the votes or she won't, like anyone else. Joan Burton was the first TD elected this year. We don't give a damn if she is a woman or man. This minority of women and men who want gender quotas are just so anti-sexist, they have become sexist.

so very true. it's a sad way to live one life.

metrovelvet

PeakOutput wrote: »

how do we all know that? I certainly don't, there are plenty of third level qualifications that are a total waste but there are also plenty that are very important.

also the lack of respect for third level is not an international trend it is an irish one, world wide a third level education is still very relevant and important.

I would like to be shown one piece of research that shows a third level education makes little or no difference in a persons medium to long term income and quality of life

In the US aswell, maybe moreso, especiallly in the Humanities, they have become fairly redundant pieces of paper. Unless you want med school they are pointless outside of alumni clubs. Even law school is no guarantee of a job. 120k debt to work as a shoe salesman in Lord and Taylor. Ive seen it happen.

Macha

PeakOutput wrote: »

If your talking about attitudes fair enough but i think its important to acknowledge that there is no iegal or institutional impediment preventing women from doing exactly what they want.

I totally agree about parental leave though it should be open to both parents with a bonus of a few weeks if they split the time equally.

Well..I would argue that the fact that women have to take the maternity leave and that men have done does lead to discrimination in the work force. A survey in the UK revealed that 70% of clients had asked recruitment agencies not to hire women of child-bearing age. I can't imagine it's much different here.

The removal of Article 42.1 and a change in the definition of the family would also help remove legal barriers to gender equality.

But don't underestimate the power of cultural norms and social attitudes. Just look at the crap stay-at-home dads have to put up with. Everywhere they turn, the whole system is aimed at women - so much so, one guy set up this website: www.dad.ie Well done to him.

metrovelvet

It moves beyond maternity leave to overall childcare. If you have a child they think you cant commit to the job in the same way someone who is childless can.

CDfm

Centaur wrote: »

What I am saying is that I have addressed your question in the thread that I pointed you towards. I don't think it is necessary to repeat myself here and take this thread completely off topic.

I thought the topic was that the Labour Party and Gilmore are sexist and thats why Burton did'nt get the job.

It is a fairly defined group of people being sexist here.

The Unions presumably give their backing to Gilmore and the "boys" who supported a "safe pair of balls" according to the National Womens Council who backed Burton.

Here is a list of the National Womens Council Members lots of unions etc are members

http://www.nwci.ie/members/memberslist.html

It is very interesting that the NWCI leader came out.

Is what McKay of the NWCI true ??

Why want to discuss airy fairy stuff about society that you can discuss anytime when the real deal has unfolded before our eyes.

So Gilmore is Sexist.

sdanseo

Vincent Browne confuses me.

I can't decide whether he's a legend or a whingy grumpy old man. :P

Jesus Wept

What are the main difficulties stay at home dads face?

Macha wrote: »

I was speaking to an American undergrad the other day, who told me it's a serious problem in the US. She majors in politics but feels she can't discuss current affairs issues with fellow students as she's frequently mocked for being a nerd. Terrifying!

I imagine that is to do with the personalities of the fellow students in question rather than her gender.

Macha

metrovelvet wrote: »

It moves beyond maternity leave to overall childcare. If you have a child they think you cant commit to the job in the same way someone who is childless can.

That's true and I think that's the big lie that was sold to women (by other women) in the 1990s - that they can have it all, do it all - the super woman idea who's the perfect mum and has a high-flying career.

What's important is that parents are given the flexibility to share the burden of childcare however they want to, instead of assuming that the woman is better at it and that the man isn't interested (or any good).

Macha

The-Rigger wrote: »

What are the main difficulties stay at home dads face?

Well, I think there's a general assumption made that the guy isn't going to be any good or is only doing it because he can't get any work. Most of the support groups and advice are aimed towards women. I'm sure it can feel quite bit alienating and insulting.

The-Rigger wrote: »

I imaigne that is to do with the personalities of the fellow students in question rather than her gender.

Oh with that anecdote, I wasn't drawing any gender-based conclusions. I was just commenting on the general phenomenon of ignorance being cool among some groups.

CDfm

sdonn wrote: »

Vincent Browne confuses me.

I can't decide whether he's a legend or a whingy grumpy old man. :P

Apparently he is a Sexist Patriarch just like these two





I don't know - maybe they are the Patriarchy & are Sexist

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

PeakOutput

metrovelvet wrote: »

In the US aswell, maybe moreso, especiallly in the Humanities, they have become fairly redundant pieces of paper. Unless you want med school they are pointless outside of alumni clubs. Even law school is no guarantee of a job. 120k debt to work as a shoe salesman in Lord and Taylor. Ive seen it happen.

I know it happens and more so because of the last few years obviously, however, that does not mean that the majority of people with third level education have better opportunities then the majority of those without.

If you have a child they think you cant commit to the job in the same way someone who is childless can.

You dont think that is a fairly reasonable assumption for certain jobs? weather its the man or the woman who the primary child carer it stands to reason that they will not be able to commit to a career the same way as someone who is not the primary carer or someone who is childless.

a ceo of a large company, for example, needs to put in huge hours, that makes that position unsuitable to someone who needs to spend however many hours a week looking after a child.

the way I see it is life is full of choices, one of those choices is weather or not to have a child, another one is which of the parents will be the primary carer(not necessarily a stay at home parent but who will the school call if the child gets sick and has to go home). there are consequences to these choices and one of those consequences may be that you will never get to a certain position in your career. imo thats just tough.

if there are two candidates for a job(male or female) the candidate who chose not to have a family in favour of their career should have the advantage imo.

but to bring it back on topic, joan burton is a clown and should be ashamed of herself for insinuating the sexism card. she sealed her fate with her performance on VB

sceptre

I've merged this thread with a more recent thread on the same topic from the main Politics forum.

Kindly keep in mind that staying on topic is a good thing - straying away as recent parts of this thread have done makes the thread discussion worth less than it should be.

metrovelvet

PeakOutput wrote: »

I know it happens and more so because of the last few years obviously, however, that does not mean that the majority of people with third level education have better opportunities then the majority of those without.



You dont think that is a fairly reasonable assumption for certain jobs? weather its the man or the woman who the primary child carer it stands to reason that they will not be able to commit to a career the same way as someone who is not the primary carer or someone who is childless.

a ceo of a large company, for example, needs to put in huge hours, that makes that position unsuitable to someone who needs to spend however many hours a week looking after a child.

the way I see it is life is full of choices, one of those choices is weather or not to have a child, another one is which of the parents will be the primary carer(not necessarily a stay at home parent but who will the school call if the child gets sick and has to go home). there are consequences to these choices and one of those consequences may be that you will never get to a certain position in your career. imo thats just tough.

if there are two candidates for a job(male or female) the candidate who chose not to have a family in favour of their career should have the advantage imo.

but to bring it back on topic, joan burton is a clown and should be ashamed of herself for insinuating the sexism card. she sealed her fate with her performance on VB

I agree that you cant have both. ALso working hours have changed. They are not 9-5 anymore. Creche's close at 6pm. Guess you could hire two day nannies and a night nanny but what would be the point?

I didnt see the VB episode people with Burton but I have seen his show before and I noticed that if he doesn't like a particular guest he will ask a question and not let them answer and start interrupting after they utter the first syllable, so my guess is he doesnt like Burton, but whether thats because she is a woman, who can ever know that?

Jesus Wept

Macha wrote: »

The Atlantic ran an influential article last year called "The End of Men," tracing this shift in the American context. I'll try to dig something up for you.

What a complete and utter wagon.
I was half way through the article when it occurred to me that the writer shared none of my concerns and that the tone of the article was one of cheerleading and fist pumping.

To that point I hadn't even considered whether a man or a woman had written it or their viewpoint might be unhelpful and retarded.

I guess the title (The End of Men) should have given me a clue however I'm still waking up and I presumed it to be a warning call rather than a delirious declaration of victory.

There are unfortunately very few people who are actually interested in equal rights and opportunities and aren't merely part of retarded unions which cheerleading and promote their own gender preference.

ho hum.

PeakOutput

metrovelvet wrote: »

I agree that you cant have both. ALso working hours have changed. They are not 9-5 anymore. Creche's close at 6pm. Guess you could hire two day nannies and a night nanny but what would be the point?

I didnt see the VB episode people with Burton but I have seen his show before and I noticed that if he doesn't like a particular guest he will ask a question and not let them answer and start interrupting after they utter the first syllable, so my guess is he doesnt like Burton, but whether thats because she is a woman, who can ever know that?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSnCj_ApI94

thats and edited clip

im not a fan of vb but its worth watching in its entirety for sheer comedic value, the full episode is probably still on tv3.ie

electrictrad

Centaur wrote: »

I don't think women getting the vote could be described as a natural occurrence. They had to fight for it. If 10% representation in the national parliament after 90 years is progress then it is glacial.

Correct, but you can't discriminate against men if women don't apply. . . again, imagine insisting that a woman choose a male childminder, or giving a male teacher a job on the basis of gender. . .there would be uproar. . .quotas are not the answer.

CDfm

PeakOutput wrote: »

but to bring it back on topic, joan burton is a clown and should be ashamed of herself for insinuating the sexism card. she sealed her fate with her performance on VB

I have asked several times for evidence of sexism here - lots has been posted but the issue avoided.

InReality

She should have been removed after the VB show if it Gilmore thought less of her after it.

Keeping her in the finance Front bench and then giving the cabinet to howlin
looked very wrong and gilmore should have bit the bullet earlier.

I'm not sure if it was sexism in her case - I have some sympathy though as women always seem to end up in education and SW in ireland.

Centaur

electrictrad wrote: »

Correct, but you can't discriminate against men if women don't apply. . . again, imagine insisting that a woman choose a male childminder, or giving a male teacher a job on the basis of gender. . .there would be uproar. . .quotas are not the answer.

See below.

Centaur wrote: »

This topic is covered more fully in the Gender Quotas thread.

CDfm

InReality wrote: »

She should have been removed after the VB show if it Gilmore thought less of her after it.

Keeping her in the finance Front bench and then giving the cabinet to howlin
looked very wrong and gilmore should have bit the bullet earlier.

Mid election - that would have been a bit of a disaster for labour

I'm not sure if it was sexism in her case - I have some sympathy though as women always seem to end up in education and SW in ireland.

i cannot see how ending up in SW or Education is a bad thing this is a government that is challenged to make cuts and change things

how is being a spokesperson on something a qualification

and is it likely that burton can make the transition from spokesprson to manager

these are both areas that have been resistant to change


interestingly she was in college with McCreavy

Thought-provoking Book about Women in Accountancy Launched by Joan Burton, TD

Friday, September 04, 2009
Chartered Accountants Ireland has published The Minority Interest, a book that examines the experiences of women who make it to the top of the accountancy profession. The book, written by Professor Patricia Barker, was launched last night by CAI President, Tom Fitzpatrick and Deputy Joan Burton (herself a Chartered Accountant).
Women now enter the profession as students in equal numbers to men, but they still encounter obstacles in achieving partnership. Additionally, they 'quit' the partnership track in greater numbers than men. Much has been written about the barriers which prevent women from breaking the glass ceiling, but The Minority Interest takes the ground-breaking approach of focussing instead on women who have overcome the obstacles and achieve partnership in their accountancy firms. The author interviewed 43 women partners from the four largest firms and has drawn common themes from their stories. Some of the common themes were:

• The women came from mixed backgrounds, had mothers who worked full-time in the home and had parents who supported them but did not push them.
• Nearly all the women attended single-sex schools and had good academic records at school and at university.
• They displayed predominantly masculine characteristics, were competitive, and had a need to be financially independent. They typically felt less self-assured than the highly confident personas they projected.
• Many had taken a strategic decision not to have children or to defer motherhood in order to pursue their careers (45% of them had no children and a further 15% had only one child).
• 77% were or had been married and they pointed out the desirability of having a husband:

o for their support,
o to save time that would otherwise be spent meeting men and
o to make socialising with male clients less open to misunderstanding.

• They referred to the importance of having had male mentors themselves. However, they did not feel that they themselves were good mentors to young women.
• Whilst they observed the importance of the 'boys' network' in the profession, they were reluctant to form a women's network lest it be misinterpreted as a 'knitting circle'.
• Although their career track to partnership was heavily planned and structured, their post-partnership career planning was less organised.

The Minority Interest concludes by suggesting food for thought for:

• young women who are contemplating a track to partnership,
• accountancy firms who seek to retain more women, and
• the women partners themselves.

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/General/News-and-Events/News1/2009/September/Thought-provoking-Book-about-Women-in-Accountancy-Launched-by-Joan-Burton-TD/

and this from ask about money in 2007

PAPER PROPHET Joan Burton



Sunday April 15 2007

What car do you drive and do you still have a no-claims bonus? A 2002 Renault Scenic. My good friend John Quilter of Blanchardstown Renault is looking forward to the general election confident of an early post-election sale. No-claims bonus intact thankfully.
Do you have any penalty points?
None
What was your first job and salary?
Checkout girl in Dunnes Stores when I was 17.
Do you have any family connection with business?
My brother-in-law owns a successful education publishing business and now and then lets me know the SME viewpoint on economic and tax matters. My late father was a craftsman moulder in the CIE Foundry for decades and all his family and my mother's family were more in the craft side than in business. I did Commerce in UCD and afterwards qualified as a chartered accountant with Price Waterhouse (then Craig Gardners). I was involved in some really interesting audits like Waterford Glass and BoI. Charlie McCreevy was in my class in both UCD and in Price Waterhouse. Some of my former classmates like Derek Quinlan are now in the billionaire category. Where did I go wrong? Anyway, are they happy?
Who would you like to see as Minister for Finance?
Actually I'd rather fancy that gig myself. Accountants are more innovative finance ministers than lawyers or economists as both Charlies proved. I promise not to frighten the horses too much (just their owners).
Which businessman/woman do you most admire?
I do admire Anita Roddick's intrepid adventure into environment-friendly cosmetics. At home I admire what Freda Hayes achieved first in Blarney Woollen Mills and now in Meadows and Byrne.
Do you own an iPod? If so, what was the last track you downloaded?
I prefer my ever trustworthy Roberts radio attached to my ear while I garden or walk. I have a slight aversion to contemporary gadgets though I was impressed by the sound quality from my husband Pat's iPod when connected to a docking station.
What was your best investment?
My mother died when I was 20. I borrowed to buy out the artisan's house we lived in the year afterwards, as soon as I got a full-time job.
What is the worst investment decision you ever made?
Eircom ,of course.
But my dad's family, who have a strong Fianna Fail streak, never tire of telling me I put my money on the wrong political horse.
Today would you invest in property, shares, cash or other?
A pension, occupational or otherwise is the best investment. The only other investment advice I offer to anyone is to own their home and value it as a home rather than a financial investment. If I had serious money I'd buy pictures. I'd love to be like Gordon Lambert, building a super collection and donating it to the people.
Do you own property abroad?
None at all. I like to travel but wouldn't care at all to own a property far away. We rent the same lovely little house in a French village every summer for a few weeks. Much easier than owning it and Madame hasn't changed the rent for years.
Is your mortgage rate fixed or variable?
Variable. We borrowed to do a substantial renovation two years ago.
Have you switched your bank or moved your mortgage in the last couple of years?
Very indolent in that department, I'm afraid. Same bank since I first borrowed a student loan decades ago.
Has your bank, building society or another financial services company ever overcharged you?
Not personally to my knowledge. The bank did some mad things with Pat's credit card account some years ago. I don't think it was deliberate but we ended up enjoying a pleasant compensation weekend in Parknasilla when they admitted their mistakes.
Do you have an SSIA? Will you splurge or invest the windfall?
Yes. With EBS. The windfall will pay my share of the general election cost. Thank you very much Mr McCreevy. My guess is that he will be astonished by the ingratitude of pesky account holders on election day.
Do you have a will?
Yes. Made one day before I went to work in Africa 20 years ago. Haven't looked at it since.
What is your salary?
€20-50k;
€50-100k;
€100-200k;
€250k+
Category 2 in your list. I'm a full-time TD so my entire income is on the public record.
Which mobile phone provider do you use?
Vodafone.
What would you spend more money on each year, petrol or restaurants?
Not sure really. Petrol probably. I eat in the Dail restaurant twice a week and prefer to eat at home at weekends.
What are your favourite radio and television programmes?
The various current affairs programmes, of course. I listen a lot to the BBC World Service and the Radio 4 Today programme at six every morning. I do like George Hook when I'm in the car at that time. On TV all the gardening programmes, any adaptation of Jane Austen and the Sopranos.
Who makes the financial decisions in your house, you or your spouse/partner?
I'm an accountant, Pat is a mathematician. Imagine the arguments.
What is your best career moment?
The best is yet to come.
What, in your opinion, are the reasons for the Celtic Tiger?
A lot of good luck at the right time, especially the drop in interest rates. Also free education for the masses at every level.
How much is a litre of milk?
Eighty cents I think in the supermarkets. I paid close to €1 in my local Spar recently.
Joan Burton TD is Labour spokesperson on Finance

I cannot see anywhere where she was made partner in an accountancy firm in fact she dropped out and she mentions audit work at bank of ireland


quite coincidental to her chasing info on staff bonuses

here are some ideas for Joan to make her mark as an innovator

coincidentally enough - a major barrier facing womens advancementt is childcare costs - many countries have refocused their welfare spending from providing "lone parent" benefits to translating the payments into subsidised childcare

http://www.abelgium.com/about/the-case-for-building-a-public-child-care-system-in-nova-...

also will she refocus the benefit system allowing men the other parent to stay at home and make it attractive for them

metrovelvet

Are you looking for evidence that VB was sexist when interviewing her or that her appointment to social protection was sexist?

CDfm

No I have my own view.


But the Labour PR Spin Machine has just gone into over drive and from where I am looking it diminishes Burton - stereotypes her as being emotional.

Burton reveals birth mother sadness

Minister given photo on first day of Dail



PARTY PEOPLE: Minister Joan Burton and Labour leader and Tanaiste Eamon Gilmore. Photo: Martin Nolan


By JEROME REILLY

Sunday March 13 2011

New minister Joan Burton yesterday shrugged off controversy over not being appointed to a finance portfolio and revealed her deep emotion about being sent a photograph of her birth mother on the day she was appointed to Cabinet.
The new Minister for Social Protection, who was put up for adoption shortly after her birth in 1949, spoke of trying to trace her mother only to discover that she had died many years before.
She was being pressed by RTE's Charlie Bird on whether she was disappointed with the role she had been given when she revealed that being sent a photograph of her birth mother on the day the new Government was formed had made her deeply reflective.
"I received a little personal note and a photograph just before I walked over to meet Eamon Gilmore to be told about my appointment. I opened the note during the course of the first Dail session and found a picture of my birth mother. I had that letter in my hand when I met Eamon, and that was personally extremely emotional.
"It was the first picture I had seen of her as a woman in her late 40s or 50s. I had seen photographs of her when she was much older but I had never seen her as a woman in her 40s. I felt in a way that this photograph was a talisman,' Ms Burton said.
"I was adopted by the Burtons into a very big Dublin family. My dad was an iron moulder, as his dad had been before him, in the foundry works in Inchicore and my adoptive mother Bridie was a great champion of me," she said.


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/burton-reveals-birth-mother-sadness-2577551.html

I dont believe the story, it may have happened, except I dont believe it.

Centaur

I don’t believe that sexism was involved here. If the full financial portfolio was available there is no doubt it would have gone to Joan Burton and if not then Gilmore would legitimately have been pilloried. However it wasn’t and he made a judgement that the watered down version was better suited to Howlins skill set. I think Gilmore should get some credit for this for surely he must have anticipated the flak that he would get. He made his decision on whom he thought was the best person for the job and no more.

The National Women’s Council reaction was ill judged and unhelpful. They could have toned it down a few notches. Burton was a victim of her own and others expectations. On saying that there is an element of glee in a lot of the postings here which in my opinion is born out of a personal dislike for her and perhaps the Labour Party. I also think that it was handled badly. I don’t know why they have to hand out the lucky bags at the last minute. Surely the incoming ministers could have been primed a bit earlier to give them a chance to compose themselves if things didn’t go their way.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Anywhoodle

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Again, I was never arguing that she should have been given the Finance portfolio. I agreed at the outset that FG, with their overwhelming majority, were always going to hang on to that post. I'm defo not disputing Noonan's competence either. My point was that Burton most certainly should have been given the Public Sector Reform brief (IMO). Clearly, we disagree about her level of competence in terms of economic matters. Fair enough. But, comparatively speaking, how is Howlin better qualified on that front?

Interesting article from Shane Ross today on this by the way... http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/shane-ross-two-teachers-take-finance-2577776.html

Permabear

This post has been deleted.