Joan Burton's cabinet post (victim of sexism or not?)

Sponge Bob

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I was told this weekend that this was the nub of it. Joan constantly and seemingly deliberately rubbed Noonan up the wrong way while negotiating the PfG last week and Noonan told Enda he could not work side by side with her in Finance but had no problems working with Howlin who was another of the negotiators..Rabbitte being the third.

So Howlin got the job...largely at the behest of Noonan. I assume Gilmore was informed during the final negotiations between himself and Enda of why Joan had to be given something else.

Personality politics in sensitive positions do matter. Many competent people can't stand each other and cannot work closely ....while they can in a Cabinet where the Taoiseach chairs.

So it wasn't her performance on Vinceno after all, which is what I thought all along. :cool: That should have kept her out of government altogether.

Anywhoodle

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I personally don't think the Social Welfare brief is the best use of her particular skills but yeah, 'lowly' isn't the right word at all.. Burton has never been subtle in trying to kick lumps out of the opposition but that doesn't mean she'd go after the unions the same way. If anything, I think she's wired to have a lot of sympathy for the unions and would deal with them reasonably.. Just speculating though..

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I was told this weekend that this was the nub of it. Joan constantly and seemingly deliberately rubbed Noonan up the wrong way while negotiating the PfG last week and Noonan told Enda he could not work side by side with her in Finance but had no problems working with Howlin who was another of the negotiators..Rabbitte being the third.

So Howlin got the job...largely at the behest of Noonan. I assume Gilmore was informed during the final negotiations between himself and Enda of why Joan had to be given something else.

Personality politics in sensitive positions do matter. Many competent people can't stand each other and cannot work closely ....while they can in a Cabinet where the Taoiseach chairs.

So it wasn't her performance on Vinceno after all, which is what I thought all along. :cool: That should have kept her out of government altogether.

This would make a lot of sense, I reckon.. Lol, as for the VB debacle, it was beyond cringey but if we were condemning politicians on dodgy TV performances then Enda Kenny shouldn't be in Gov. either- let alone in the role of Taoiseach!

CDfm

Anywhoodle wrote: »

I personally don't think the Social Welfare brief is the best use of her particular skills but yeah, 'lowly' isn't the right word at all.. Burton has never been subtle in trying to kick lumps out of the opposition but that doesn't mean she'd go after the unions the same way. If anything, I think she's wired to have a lot of sympathy for the unions and would deal with them reasonably.. Just speculating though..

And what particular skills are those.

I might even agree with you if we knew what her job spec is to be.

The Chief Secretary of the Department does the day to day management.

Her job is broad policymaking.

With the FAS accounting/ slush fund/ issues and problems getting courses accredited etc there is a huge problem.

There is also a problem with wrestling control of the department from civil service and making it accountable for spending cuts.

She has a very difficult role and if she performs it well -she may be a hero.

It will be very difficult to be a popular Minister for Social Protection.

So to be a success she has to be brutal and it is not a popularity contest.

Can she stand not being popular.

This would make a lot of sense, I reckon.. Lol, as for the VB debacle, it was beyond cringey but if we were condemning politicians on dodgy TV performances then Enda Kenny shouldn't be in Gov. either- let alone in the role of Taoiseach!

But the adoption story today is violin & vomit bag stuff

Anywhoodle

CDfm wrote: »

And what particular skills are those.

I've already explained what I think her capabilities and strengths are.. It's all there in my earlier posts.

I might even agree with you if we knew what her job spec is to be.

The Chief Secretary of the Department does the day to day management.

Her job is broad policymaking.

With the FAS accounting/ slush fund/ issues and problems getting courses accredited etc there is a huge problem.

There is also a problem with wrestling control of the department from civil service and making it accountable for spending cuts.

She has a very difficult role and if she performs it well -she may be a hero.

It will be very difficult to be a popular Minister for Social Protection.

So to be a success she has to be brutal and it is not a popularity contest.

Can she stand not being popular.

True. None of the Cabinet Members are going to be able to avoid alienating some portions of the electorate. Brutal decisions will have to be made... I'm sure they're all well aware of that pretty stark reality. I'd imagine you don't get into politics unless you have a thick enough skin to handle all that..

But the adoption story today is violin & vomit bag stuff

That's harsh IMO. You say it's 'violin' stuff, but I think (title aside- that was tacked on by the journalist..) it's a pretty positive story. Just a nice tribute to her adoptive parents and a little expression of solidarity with other adopted people who've been through a similar "voyage of discovery." I certainly don't see anything objectionable in it. It's hardly as though she was using it as an election ploy, trying to win votes with a sob story. *Shrug*

CDfm

Anywhoodle wrote: »

I've already explained what I think her capabilities and strengths are.. It's all there in my earlier posts.

But we do not know if she was a good accountant.

I can find nothing on her career and I wish I could.

It's hardly as though she was using it as an election ploy, trying to win votes with a sob story.

The VB & sexist stuff has damaged her.

She is trying to be popular.

She is adopted and at her age 61 or 62 -even if the story is true (on getting a photo handed to her) & I doubt it-she should be over it.

Such stories hurt her credibility as a person and gives the impression that she cannot handle stress and lacks judgement.

Anywhoodle

CDfm wrote: »

But we do not know if she was a good accountant.

I can find nothing on her career and I wish I could.

The VB & sexist stuff has damaged her.

She is trying to be popular.

VB crucifies everyone. Kinda his schtick. I personally had greater respect for Burton's bizarre, bull-in-a-china-shop clash with VB (car-crash TV at its best..) than Kenny's run and hide response. Anyway, like I said, I think people have totally over-emphasised that one panel appearance...

She is adopted and at her age 61 or 62 -even if the story is true (on getting a photo handed to her) & I doubt it-she should be over it.

Such stories hurt her credibility as a person and gives the impression that she cannot handle stress and lacks judgement.

Wow. That's just plain insensitive. :rolleyes: What has following up a totally natural curiosity about your roots got to do with personal credibility, poor stress-management and a lack of judgement? Bizarre... You're completely trivialising something that many people feel is fundamental to their sense of identity.

Anyway, I've given my two cents on this topic. Nothing more to add to what I've already said...

hatrickpatrick

I'm starting to think that an accusation of "sexism" in this election campaign is starting to become the "card" that, say, accusations of anti semitism is when used against Pro Palestinian debaters.

In other words, it's a cop out. It's a catchall, cheap card to be played. Any time something bad happens to a woman in politics? Of course it's sexism. It couldn't have anything to do with there being a better person for the job, or with her atrocious ranting on Vincent Browne, or anything actually related to performance. Oh no - if a woman misses out, the only possible explanation os misogyny. Off with some guy's head, please. :rolleyes:

metrovelvet

Well, I've never heard of a male candidate being discounted or disliked or scrutinised on the basis he was 'shrill.'

Tragedy

metrovelvet wrote: »

Well, I've never heard of a male candidate being discounted or disliked or scrutinised on the basis he was 'shrill.'

Can you point us out to a male election candidate being shrill for an hour on national tv?

No?

Awesome comparison.

metrovelvet

Tragedy wrote: »

Can you point us out to a male election candidate being shrill for an hour on national tv?

No?

Awesome comparison.

I don't know many men who have high pitched voices or sound like banshees.

CDfm

Anywhoodle wrote: »

VB crucifies everyone. Kinda his schtick. I personally had greater respect for Burton's bizarre, bull-in-a-china-shop clash with VB (car-crash TV at its best..)

I dont think the appearence was good and few people watched it.

It is the sexist accusation that has drawn the attention.

Then turning her attention to her cabinet colleagues she let go.

Other people have not been damaged she has.

Wow. That's just plain insensitive. :rolleyes: What has following up a totally natural curiosity about your roots got to do with personal credibility, poor stress-management and a lack of judgement? Bizarre... You're completely trivialising something that many people feel is fundamental to their sense of identity.

It is not insensitive, it is stating my position.

Its a reasonable by-stander test. If a policeman suspects someone of a crime, but hasnt witnressed it, that suspicion must be such that an ordinary person faced with the same situation would reasonably suspect that the person was guilty of the crime.

Thats reasonable suspicion.

I reasonably suspect that this story is a contrived spin.She is starting heading a new department and what do her staff and the staff at the semi states believe.

It does not matter what I believe.

Before she had an air of mystery & invincibility about her.

Thats gone.

Self-inflicted.

Focalbhach

metrovelvet wrote: »

I don't know many men who have high pitched voices or sound like banshees.

So... she is shriller than most (if not all) of her peers, and most of the country for that matter. You've answered your own question. She is singled out for her shrillness because she shrills louder than anyone else.

Centaur

The attempt to deconstruct Joan Burton’s career to try and discredit her and make it seem she was not capable for the finance ministry is pathetic. She has been a finance front bench spokesperson since 2002 and has consistently been completely on top of her brief. To imply that she is just a number cruncher is patronising.

Marc Coleman, a former economist in the Department Of Finance and subsequently the ECB, had no such reservations.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/economic-tsunamis-are-coming-2577430.html

“A final point, if I may. As ministers who have seen and dealt with earlier crises, the appointment of Michael Noonan and Brendan Howlin to the Department of Finance is welcome. Having said that, on leaving the Department of Finance in 1997 to join the ECB, I was suddenly struck by how -- apart from having more skilled staff -- the ECB had a much greater representation of women.

Reeking of testosterone, if one department badly needed a woman in charge, it was Finance -- and not appointing Joan Burton is a missed opportunity to not just restructure the department, but reculture it.”

CDfm

Good point -reculture I like - but my feeling is Burton is the wrong person for that.

Though i agree with everything else he says .

I am not trying to deconstruct Burtons career to discredit her - I am trying to find a positive to justify peoples support of her.

I do not think Burton or any of the economic spokespersons (or ministers) have been on top of their brief. So its not just Burton. Howlin is personable and likeable.


Lots of the issue's seem to be down to Burtons recent handling of events and her "people skills".

My gut instinct is that there is sexism there but because of everything else and how its played out its unproveable.

Centaur

Fair enough, but I still don't think sexism was at play here.

Maybe it should've been.