Shane Ross: Reduce Corporation Tax to 9.9%

HellFireClub

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Do you own a business?

Yes I started up my own business last year and I've a huge issue with the lack of support I've personally encountered in getting off the ground. Do not read what I just said there as, "I expect state handouts", the experience that I had just trying to get access to start up capital nearly put me in the river.

I've a huge issue with the whole national discussion on job creation being taken up by an unnecessary debate that is being entertained on CT rates. It's a distraction to the real debate that needs to take place, there are apparently 1.8 million people working in Ireland, only around 100K of those are jobs that are directly provided by US MNC's, who appear to be the one's doing the loudest shouting on the CT subject.

I can tell you from experience that we will be an awful long time creating any jobs with the current government policy which is, "throw money at the IDA to try to import enterpreneurship and we'll provide Paddy to put the stickers on the Dell boxes"...

Every week, I get an e-mail from InsolvencyJournal.ie, listing the dozens and dozens of companies that are for liquidation in the same week, behind every line on the list is a business with numerous employees who have loans, mortgages, etc.

People like myself will create jobs if the access is there to seed capital, this happens like night follows day. What can't happen is that jobs can't be created when we have a banking system that is literally bamboozled and not supporting businesses, despite being bailed out by billions and when we are tolerating a completely needless discussion running for months on CT tax, when the majority of businesses in this state are losing money so therefore the CT rate and the associated discussion is irrelevant.

Little Alex

This is not a forum that I usually post in, but this thread caught my eye.

I am at a loss as to understand why Germany is concerned with our corporation tax rate. Germany has a central, federal corporation tax, but it is left to the individual regions to decide how much tax they actually charge. In many cases they charge little or actually no corporation tax. In fact, I remember reading an article in Der Spiegel in 2002 or 2003 which exclaimed that the previous year had been the first in decades in which the federal government had collected more corporation tax than dog licence revenue.

bryaner

Scofflaw wrote: »

To make it fully correct, then - a richer neighbour begging his poorer neighbours for money to keep putting truffles on his plate and cover his pal's gambling losses. It was the Irish government that decided to absorb the Irish banks' debts, after all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

And who funded the pal with his gambling losses while it was clear he was losing his bollox..

hmmm

bryaner wrote: »

And who funded the pal with his gambling losses while it was clear he was losing his bollox..

A certain Mr Bond, the local Mafia leader. Your pal can choose not to pay back his losses, but if he does he's going to have his legs broken, his business destroyed and his kids are going to run away. I claim all rights for this book btw

Idbatterim

"Why does Europe have a responsibility for our plight? Because we're an EU country and we were stupid enough to let our banks build up debts that dwarfed our economy - and then stupid enough to guarantee those debts entirely off our own bat?"

"Scofflaw, I would totally agree if this were sovereign debt, and we were borrowing billions of French and German taxpayers money to pay ridiculous welfare, PS pay and keep 50% from paying PAYE! but we are really screwed because we are paying back their banks and bondholders ridiculous lending."

Why do people insist on putting the blame on those who are only lending us the money to cover the debts our government freely chose to take on?"

Also if this is the case, should we continue on with the mistake and have the country ruined, or just say the bank gurantee was a mistake, one far to big to just continue on with and look at our options? Is honesty not the best policy? why continue with a mistake?

unforseen circumstances now apply to more than just the CPA!

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Why does Europe have a responsibility for our plight? Because we're an EU country and we were stupid enough to let our banks build up debts that dwarfed our economy - and then stupid enough to guarantee those debts entirely off our own bat?

What about the idiots who loaned money to lying, dodgy, corrupt banks ?

Why do we have responsibility for their stupidity ?

Scofflaw

Little Alex wrote: »

This is not a forum that I usually post in, but this thread caught my eye.

I am at a loss as to understand why Germany is concerned with our corporation tax rate. Germany has a central, federal corporation tax, but it is left to the individual regions to decide how much tax they actually charge. In many cases they charge little or actually no corporation tax. In fact, I remember reading an article in Der Spiegel in 2002 or 2003 which exclaimed that the previous year had been the first in decades in which the federal government had collected more corporation tax than dog licence revenue.

I'm not sure why it annoys the French as such, but the attitude in Germany seems to be that Ireland stands as a symbol for the profligacy of the periphery that German taxpayers feel they're being forced to bail out, contrary to the promises they were given at the adoption of the euro - and our refusal to raise taxes while taking their bailout money for fear of "damaging" an economy we've so comprehensively screwed up as to endanger our common currency is basically just adding insult to injury.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Idbatterim wrote: »

"Scofflaw, I would totally agree if this were sovereign debt, and we were borrowing billions of French and German taxpayers money to pay ridiculous welfare, PS pay and keep 50% from paying PAYE! but we are really screwed because we are paying back their banks and bondholders ridiculous lending."

But that's the point - we're not, or at least nobody has presented any evidence that we are. Everybody just says it, nobody proves it - and it's pretty clear the rest of Europe doesn't believe it.

So, as far as they're concerned, we're borrowing billions of their money to bail out our own profligate banks, not theirs - and to pay the wages of public servants and politicians who are paid far more than their European counterparts.

Literally all the evidence I've been able to source for who lent what and to whom shows that the eurozone banks were only bit players in the Irish bubble - the main players seem to have been the risk-hungry and less conservative banks of the Anglo-American financial world. If someone can offer me evidence that the contrary is true, then I'll revise that view - but at the moment, I have to disagree with the common wisdom you're citing, because the available evidence points the other way.

What evidence convinced you that eurozone banks played a large part in Ireland's bubble?

Idbatterim wrote: »

Also if this is the case, should we continue on with the mistake and have the country ruined, or just say the bank gurantee was a mistake, one far to big to just continue on with and look at our options? Is honesty not the best policy? why continue with a mistake?

unforseen circumstances now apply to more than just the CPA!

Because at this stage, we've kind of made our banks the measure of the euro. I know it doesn't do to over-estimate our importance, and I'm sure Greek media have a similar curved-mirror view of the effect they're having - but their crisis is not bank-dominated in the same way ours is. Europe as a whole has banking issues - indeed, the "first world" as a whole has banking issues - and ours are seen, I think, as the canary in the coalmine. If we default on our banks, there's a reasonable expectation that other European countries will do likewise. And if that default is accepted by the major European countries, then it's a dead cert that other countries with banking problems will default too - and if Europe is to go down that road, it will go down it together.

At this stage, no action Ireland takes in respect of its banks is of purely Irish dimensions. So we can be as honest as we like - we cannot be seen to be allowed to default, because we've made our bank debt a sovereign issue, and a European issue.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What about the idiots who loaned money to lying, dodgy, corrupt banks ?

Why do we have responsibility for their stupidity ?

Because the Irish government guaranteed their debts. It's not a moral issue, it's a legal one - they did it, and now we're stuck with it unless we can undo it.

That doesn't make it someone else's responsibility, though - other than those who originally bought the debt, and who have been paid off, and somewhat more perhaps those at agencies like Moody's who gave banks like Anglo investment grade ratings. And of course the regulators that didn't regulate, the government that didn't make them or let them do so - and, in the final analysis, the people who voted for those governments. But where it suddenly becomes the moral responsibility of the German taxpayer is a mystery to me - as it is apparently to the German taxpayer.

cordially,
Scofflaw

hmmm

Scofflaw wrote: »

So, as far as they're concerned, we're borrowing billions of their money to bail out our own profligate banks, not theirs - and to pay the wages of public servants and politicians who are paid far more than their European counterparts.

Graphically illustrated by the comment today about Kenny still being paid more than Cameron. And the head of the Irish defence forces being paid more than the head of the UK defence forces.

We look completely and utterly craven begging for a bailout while at the same time having very high social welfare rates and a highly paid public sector. Look at it through German eyes and you can imagine they would love to cut up the Irish government's credit card as we are just hopelessly incompetent with money.

Tea drinker

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Oh I think the way our Government has handled this country over the past decade has been a complete joke. And I think the way people paid crazy money for crappy property is a joke. We are an embarrassment.

But forgetting all that, we cannot afford to pay back the debt, and the EU cannot afford to let us default.

So both Ireland and the EU need to cop on and come to an agreement which works for everyone.

Again with the we and collective responsibility. I didn't buy property in Ireland as it was way too expensive, I managed my money and never voted FF. Infact every opportunity I talked them down, some people listened, many didn't and took the doom monger approach.
I have nothing to be embarassed about. If the well paid german bankers and EU regulators were doing there job they would spotted the risk well paid Irish bankers were creating. They should be embarassed.

about the MNC's, these guys can move extemely quickly when they want, if Ireland raised the rate to 20% I reckon a whole swathe of the economy would leave.

remember you are a small ex-agricultural nation on the outskirts of europe. Without low tax what bloody reason is there to be here?
Sarkozy doesn't care about Ireland at all, our low tax is no threat to France or Germany. His own tax regime sees the MNC's there could pay as low as 8% corp tax. UK has several companies which paid no tax, and Ireland is the problem? Having a laugh etc...

Lame Lantern

But that's the point - we're not, or at least nobody has presented any evidence that we are. Everybody just says it, nobody proves it - and it's pretty clear the rest of Europe doesn't believe it.

So, as far as they're concerned, we're borrowing billions of their money to bail out our own profligate banks, not theirs - and to pay the wages of public servants and politicians who are paid far more than their European counterparts.

You're absolutely right that nobody proves anything. That's the unfortunate nature of dealing with private institutions.

People like myself, who don't possess the mind to every really comprehend the complexity of international finance, are dependent on the commentariat to give us a decent view of the situation, and within Ireland where every commentator and celebreconomist is profiting outrageously because of this situation, this is a very precarious place to be. There are a few voices worth listening to, I think, and Damien Kiberd's articles over the last year have been extremely useful in developing some kind of understanding of what's going on.

Anyway, to play devil's advocate here, I think I can frame the argument in favour of a sinful Europe based on how commentators are thinking. It holds some water I think, but as you've said, it's unprovable. These are private interests. When people say "burn the bondholders" they may inadvertantly be saying "burn the credit unions." Additionally, in terms of aportioning blame, it's anyone's guess. However, I do think the narrative is deserving of some consideration:

1. European financial institutions entering the Irish market fueled the property crisis (or at least kept it buoyant) by offering absurd interest rates and other incentives to borrow that the domestic banks had to match. This was done directly (as in the case of RBS) and indirectly, in the form of larger European banks slashing their costs of borrowing to Irish banks in order to pass on the savings to consumers, resulting in other banks needing to compete and offer further incentives of their own.

2. The banking crisis was precipated by a period of frozen interbank lending. The small/medium banks that relied on larger banks to borrow found their lines of credit choked off, resulting in them being unable to seek our profitable business or to refinance their debts while the larger European financial institutions held on to their cash.

3. In the wake of the guarantee and the establishment of NAMA, financial institutions were supposed to begin lending to our banks again to allow them to do business and work their way out of their debts. However, these banks refused to do business in Ireland, held on to their cash. European leaders refused to engage with the idea of Irish banks defaulting on these debts.

4. Under the EU/IMF deal, NAMA has started to wind down its debts over 4 rather than 10 years (at low valuations) including properties in negative equity that remain good investments (due to rent etc) in order to recover bond capital for these larger institutions. This amounts to the destruction of Irish wealth for the sake of bond holders while the express purpose of NAMA (allow banks to borrow again) has failed entirely. Furthermore, we're liquidating the pension fund at the worst possible time, though the parties that are now in government took this dumbass idea onboard for use in other areas as well.

The argument hangs on the idea banking is an international industry and that European financial institutions at the top of the credit food chain fueled the nonsensical competition in Ireland that, coupled with the weaknesses in our property sector, led to massive banking insolvency, and that their response to our difficulties has been to guard as much of their own exposure as possible. I think there's some merit to it. Is it the whole story? Definitely not. Does Europe deserve the lion's share of the blame? I really don't know.

I think they're claims worth engaging, even if the newstalkish narrative of "it's all Europe's fault, sure look at how lovely Enda looks today" is bad for everyone.

ei.sdraob

HellFireClub wrote: »

Yes I started up my own business last year and I've a huge issue with the lack of support I've personally encountered in getting off the ground. Do not read what I just said there as, "I expect state handouts", the experience that I had just trying to get access to start up capital nearly put me in the river.

I've a huge issue with the whole national discussion on job creation being taken up by an unnecessary debate that is being entertained on CT rates. It's a distraction to the real debate that needs to take place, there are apparently 1.8 million people working in Ireland, only around 100K of those are jobs that are directly provided by US MNC's, who appear to be the one's doing the loudest shouting on the CT subject.

I can tell you from experience that we will be an awful long time creating any jobs with the current government policy which is, "throw money at the IDA to try to import enterpreneurship and we'll provide Paddy to put the stickers on the Dell boxes"...

Every week, I get an e-mail from InsolvencyJournal.ie, listing the dozens and dozens of companies that are for liquidation in the same week, behind every line on the list is a business with numerous employees who have loans, mortgages, etc.

People like myself will create jobs if the access is there to seed capital, this happens like night follows day. What can't happen is that jobs can't be created when we have a banking system that is literally bamboozled and not supporting businesses, despite being bailed out by billions and when we are tolerating a completely needless discussion running for months on CT tax, when the majority of businesses in this state are losing money so therefore the CT rate and the associated discussion is irrelevant.

Ah started last year hence excluded from corporation tax, no wonder you are not concerned.

Now here is my story,

started 4-5 years ago,
grew year on year with profits from year 1 paying corpo tax since then despite the recession,
year ending july 10 being a bumper year and ended up having to pay corporation tax well into 5 digits

Unlike you I did not look for handouts nor need them, I dealt with Enterprise Ireland before on unrelated project and have some stories of ongoing waste of money and funding for other companies that where setup as schemes to milk the system.

All of my profits come from abroad, like a good little citizen I paid well into hundreds of thousands Corpo, Income, PRSI, VAT, empoyee side taxes youname it, all because I decided to work hard and put my head down.
This month the split in the business will be finished with most of the business leaving Ireland for good

I am bloody sick of bankrupt and incompetent banks, crooked and wasteful governments, when you finally start turning a profit you might realise that your hard earned money is not going to pay for roads, hospitals and schools but for debt servicing, banks, pensions and waste, dont come here crying.

I congratulate you on your enthusiasm and starting out in these difficult times, but I personally have had enough.

jmayo

whiteonion wrote: »

Why is it that normal countries are able to have normal corporation tax rates without suffering from mass unemployment? The corp tax should be raised. The MMC:s are not going to leave the country because we jack up the corrp tax to 20% such a move would be very costly.

Fairy tale economics. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw wrote: »

Why does Europe have a responsibility for our plight? Because we're an EU country and we were stupid enough to let our banks build up debts that dwarfed our economy - and then stupid enough to guarantee those debts entirely off our own bat?

Ehh and they were stupid enough to give us the ok for that guarantee and the likes of NAMA, funding from ECB and told us no banks should be allowed fold.
Oh and their banks were stupid enough to loan to our banks in the first place. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw wrote: »

Why do people insist on putting the blame on those who are only lending us the money to cover the debts our government freely chose to take on?

I don't blame them for our mess, but I do blame them for forcing us to pay through the nose for trying to solve it.
We are being punished as an example.

Scofflaw wrote: »

Do people simply forget what happened in September 2008? How we outsmarted everybody else with a 'heroic' guarantee of all our banks' debts? No mention of the ECB or the EU then - except the question of whether when presented with our so-clever fait accompli they would have an objection that would prevent us doing it.

Ehhh most of us, the actual citizens, never backed that crazy guarantee.
I do know some of the posts here, including yourself are proponents of such sh**e as NAMA, but don't count all of us in that group. :mad:

Scofflaw wrote: »

That's something I'm 100% behind - but we won't get there by whipping everyone up into a frenzy of "they owe us" and "they're shafting us". They don't owe us a darn thing. They're putting their taxpayers' money on the line for us, and if they want something more in return than a load of whining, that's hardly unfair in princple.

They are putting their taxpayers money on the line for themselves and stop trying to spin some great heroic benevolent storyline.
Actually they are making us Irish taxpayers responsible and not their own.
We are the ones that are being lumped with a very hefty bill.
:rolleyes:

Actually I am beginning to find your posts a bit nauseating and condescending.
You appear to be of the opinion that we should just roll over and be good little boys thankiing our lord and masters in Frankfurt.

Yes our banks were badly run, yes our government was cr** and allowed the banking meltdown, construction bubble, budget deficit and yes we need to get our house in order.
But their so called bailout is not a bailout, but an anchor.

We the citizens and new government have been asked to take on the debts of private sector entities who owe this money to European and world entities.
We are doing them a favour. We are putting our futures on the line to help save the bloody Euro. :rolleyes:


Also please don't forget in your stampede to endorse all things EU that the Euro interest rates have always been set to favour Germany especially, not us or anyone else.

Also don't forget that due to the German influence they have so far discounted quantative easing which is probably the only way out of this mess.

whiteonion wrote: »

If low taxes were good for the economy Finland would be struggling whereas Ireland still would be doing great... just sayin...

Ah ffs stop comparing us to countries with indigenous industry.

HellFireClub wrote: »

Where are these MNC's going to take flight to??? Where are they going to get a lower CT rate if we up ours by 1%??? If France has an apparently lower effective CT rate than us, then in all seriousness, what are these companies doing here to begin with?!?!?

Ehh Cyprus would be one.
Also the other costs of doing business would be less in Eastern European countries.

HellFireClub wrote: »

NO MNC was given any assurance before coming here that our CT rate would remain static, it's a rediculous thing to assume as a businessperson that taxes will remain the same, only an idiot would make a business decision on that basis.

How do you know what assurances were given ?

Go talk to the idiots that bought houses based on sEction 23/section50 grants. :rolleyes:

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm not sure why it annoys the French as such, but the attitude in Germany seems to be that Ireland stands as a symbol for the profligacy of the periphery that German taxpayers feel they're being forced to bail out, contrary to the promises they were given at the adoption of the euro - and our refusal to raise taxes while taking their bailout money for fear of "damaging" an economy we've so comprehensively screwed up as to endanger our common currency is basically just adding insult to injury.

cordially,
Scofflaw

So your opinion is "we should be good little Europeans, raise our corpo tax since the economy is screwed anyway" ?

The more I read your posts in this thread, the more I see the sterotype of the little Irish man who spends most of his time worrying what people think of him.

Yes we as a country screwed up and should be ashamed what a mess our government, with the blessing of a lot of the people (not all of us), made of the economy, but that should not mean we screw ourselves for the next 30 years.
We need to look after no.1 and I couldn't give two f**ks if someone in Germany is offended by that.
They as a race offended enough people in much more grevious ways in their time.

Perhaps the guys in Frankfurt should also be ashamed when they consider how they allowed the lending go uncontrolled throughout the Eurozone.
Look at the European (not alone Eurozone) banking system, it is a shambles.
Look at mess in the UK.

Just remember it is just not us that are royally f***ed.
Take a look at Spain, Portugal, Greece and Italy.

I am not proud we are in that group, but neither am I willing to take the spanking for the rest of them. :mad:

ei.sdraob

How do they expect to get their money back if there is no wealth generating economy left to repay debt with?

At least the IMF are interested in getting their money back, the EU on the other hand are wasting yet more time and concentrating on a distractive subject of corporation tax, it was not corporation tax that got us here for gods sake.

---

Karl Whelan has an interesting article today

THE KEY thing to understand about the current Irish economic crisis is that it’s mainly about the banks. Even without the banks we would have a large fiscal deficit. However, without the banks, we’d also have a debt-GDP ratio of about 80 per cent and a sovereign wealth fund worth about 15 per cent of GDP, a situation that would be sustainable.

It was banking problems that triggered the EU-IMF bailout deal. Despite having sizeable cash balances, the Irish Government did not have the money to provide the liquidity support to banks that were haemorrhaging deposits and other sources of funding. Instead, the banks were being propped up by massive amounts of funding from the ECB as well as emergency liquidity assistance (ELA) from the Irish Central Bank that required assent from the ECB Governing Council. Ultimately, it was the ECB’s decision to make further funding for the banks conditional on Ireland seeking a bailout that triggered the EU-IMF agreement.

Back in November, the plan to fix the banks was to get the Irish State to put in up to €35 billion (half of this borrowed from the EU and IMF) to recapitalise the banks. It was hoped that this would restore market confidence, thus allowing the banks regain access to market funding and repay the fortune they owe the ECB.

The availability of these funds to recapitalise the banks has not had the desired effect. Large amounts of deposits have left the Irish banking system since November to be replaced by yet more Central Bank funding. The six banks guaranteed by the State now owe about €150 billion to central banks, with about €70 billion of this owed to the Irish Central Bank in the form of loans that were guaranteed by the former minister for finance (without, to my knowledge, any consultation of the Oireachtas).

Consider the magnitude of this funding. Irish GNP is projected to be €128 billion this year. So if every Irish person gave all their income this year to the banks, it would still not be enough to pay back the ECB and the loans due to the Central Bank.

jmayo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

How do they expect to get their money back if there is no wealth generating economy left to repay debt with?

At least the IMF are interested in getting their money back, the EU on the other hand are wasting yet more time and concentrating on a distractive subject of corporation tax, it was not corporation tax that got us here for gods sake.

The EU, in particular sarkozy and merkel are playing politics at the moment.
It plays well to their electorate that they are shafting the irresponsible uppidy paddies.
And part of that is to try and force the Irish to adopt a higher corporation tax rates.
Except these two muppets are neglecting to tell their people that their own corpo tax rates can work out as cheap if not cheaper than Ireland.
I would say something if this mouthing off was coming from Finland or Sweden, but it is coming from Germany and France.
Have the Brits being mouthing off about it, and they have as much if not more reason to ?

Also the ECB and tricket are muppets who have adopted the German policy of no quantative easing come hell or high water.
They have been kicking the can down the road and sooner of later something has to give.
One of the PIIGS is going to default.
There is no way the PIIGS can ever repay all their debts.
We are in that happy group thanks to turning private debts into soverign debts.
To make matters worse the so called bailout they lumped on us makes it matter of when and not if.
So punishing us in order to make an example will have dire consequences for them down the road.

dan_d

It amazes me that they either haven't copped this, or are completely ignoring it.
We will almost certainly have a lot more difficulty paying back the loans if corporation tax is raised, as it's likely we'll lose a lot business that way.
Political posturing on behalf of the Germans in particular is not going to change this fact.
There will have to be some sort of agreement on what happens with the interest rates and time period of the loan - but I'm inclined to think we shouldn't budge on the CT. As I've said in other threads, this needs time. It's not going to be solved or changed straight away. There's no doubt our banks are a total disgrace, and our former Government made a complete pig's ear of the economy and the crisis solution. But equally there's little doubt that we cannot survive without European money at this stage.

HellFireClub

The situation that we are being led into now by this government and their Ibec/American Chamber of Commerce in Ireland(AmCham.ie) monkeys, is that we are literally staring a sovereign default in the face, our banking system is still in bits, 2 years after the crisis first emerged, we are in no position whatsoever to be dictating terms to anyone, in terms of the huge financial support that we will still require on an ongoing basis to keep the lights on in the country, we are still trying to bluff and cod our way to more money, repeating the mantra that we will not change our CT rate, even if a default on the sovereign occurs here!?!?!?!?!?!

The likes of Sarkozy and Merkel are laughing their arses of at us, seeing Kenny & Noonan trying to play hardball on this, it's like watching a drunken goobsh*te trying to bluff at poker as he is hardly able to steady himself in his chair or hold his cards up straight...

In fairness, this whole discussion is a sheer waste of time, swopping a 1% interest rate cut for a 1% CT rax hike is not going to do anything to sort out our problem here, it's like putting a plaster on a heart attack victim, a nice gesture but a waste of time...

K-9

I thought it was CCTB they were trying to introduce?

France and Germany having cheaper rates doesn't make sense. Sure we would have no advantage to give up then!

Mr. Loverman

dan_d wrote: »

It amazes me that they either haven't copped this, or are completely ignoring it.

Or the third option: they don't care?

Maybe they gain more in the long run from Ireland having a higher corporation tax than they do from Ireland paying back its debts.

ei.sdraob

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Or the third option: they don't care?

Maybe they gain more in the long run from Ireland having a higher corporation tax than they do from Ireland paying back its debts.

Well if all countries in EU have same vat, rates, etc etc then the largest economies win due to simply being larger

being smaller and more flexible is what ireland needs to be, handing over this only advantage is foolish

paddy145

Scofflaw wrote: »

Why does Europe have a responsibility for our plight? Because we're an EU country and we were stupid enough to let our banks build up debts that dwarfed our economy - and then stupid enough to guarantee those debts entirely off our own bat?

Why do people insist on putting the blame on those who are only lending us the money to cover the debts our government freely chose to take on?

Do people simply forget what happened in September 2008? How we outsmarted everybody else with a 'heroic' guarantee of all our banks' debts? No mention of the ECB or the EU then - except the question of whether when presented with our so-clever fait accompli they would have an objection that would prevent us doing it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Maybe im talking out me arse but didnt Europe keep interest rates low about 10 years ago when France and Germany were going through a lull and Ireland was booming. This would have been the time to raise them to cool the building boom in Ireland but it suited the eurozone more to help out the Germans and the French. Now it looks like they will start to raise interest rates again which will be the final push over the edge for the Irish banks. Europe has this idea that one show size fits all which it clearly dose not, and so some of the blame must lie at their door.

kilburn

We need someone to go in there and kick a few tables and bang his fist on the table to Sarkozy whats Roy Keane up to although who knows what sparks and gems might fly out of Noonans mouth " You know what the EU reminds me off..............

K-9

paddy145 wrote: »

Maybe im talking out me arse but didnt Europe keep interest rates low about 10 years ago when France and Germany were going through a lull and Ireland was booming. This would have been the time to raise them to cool the building boom in Ireland but it suited the eurozone more to help out the Germans and the French. Now it looks like they will start to raise interest rates again which will be the final push over the edge for the Irish banks. Europe has this idea that one show size fits all which it clearly dose not, and so some of the blame must lie at their door.

If the banks had been regulated properly and listened to warning, it wouldn't have been as bad. As for interest rates, Iceland had high interest rates and that caused different problems. Given the greed for money and profits a bubble would have happened anyway.

sarumite

irishh_bob wrote: »

euro is strong right now

Depends on your definition of strong....I live in Sweden but earn in euro and I have seen the euro fall from 10.5 SEK (swedish Kroner) to a low of 8.4 SEK in the space of year. Last time I checked it was only 8.8 sek.

fred252

sarumite wrote: »

Depends on your definition of strong....I live in Sweden but earn in euro and I have seen the euro fall from 10.5 SEK (swedish Kroner) to a low of 8.4 SEK in the space of year. Last time I checked it was only 8.8 sek.

its value against the SEK wouldn't be a big barometer. 1.40 against the dollar would be more significant.

HarryPotter41

edwinkane wrote: »

Why 500? I'm not sure you could discriminate against non multinationals or against employers of under 500. But, in principle, I am all for taxing less in the sure knowledge that governments spend our money less efficiently and wisely than we do ourselves.

Yes, because low taxes are not part of what has us in this mess in the first place.

K-9

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

Yes, because low taxes are not part of what has us in this mess in the first place.

Indeed, the Government gave tax reductions so that people could spend, which led to a property and credit bubble. Giving the money to the people hasn't been great either here and other countries!

CDfm

Am I missing something or are people infering that the Euro was a kind of printing press of money to get poorer nations to get into debt but by German goods.

It benefited them and France greatly.

It backfired.

edwinkane

I'd argue that high taxes ( and Ireland is a high tax country) actually act to depress economic activity. Why are most African countries economically depressed? We are all led to believe its down to failed harvests and post colonial legacy, when in fact if you check most African countries have very high taxes.