Moment of truth for leftists (except scumlord because he likes The Zohan)

gcgirl

I don't know if it's a coincidence but the last couple of weeks I read up a little on Palistine and really opened my eyes, post 1945 Jewish agency's were sending people to Palistine regardless of what they actually wanted, there was a case of Austrian Jews who wanted to go back to Austria and had to fight the Jewish agency to go back to their home.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Let me tell you: In Ireland people in this age commit suicides too, and you don't such have an army service as we have.
There are many reasons for that. Since 48, about 28500 Israelis have been killed in wars and terror attacks. How many commited suicides?
.

We're talking about the occupation. Since Abbas quietened down the West Bank, the casualties are far more likely to be self inflicted than caused by the Palestinian side.

The Israeli wrote: »

When you say that, what do you mean? + The Druse population in the Golan are citizens and do enjoy of all the benefits. They wouldn't get a better life in any other arab state.
.

The majority of the Arab residents disagree with the occupation.

Most of the Arabs in Golan are Druze, members of a sect that split from Islam centuries ago and has large followings in Lebanon, Syria and Israel. Unlike most of the Druze in Israel, those here identify themselves as Arabs and do not serve in the Israeli military. The vast majority consider themselves citizens of Syria, although a small percentage support Israel's presence here.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/29/AR2006102900926.html

The Israeli wrote: »

again, you are ignoring of the facts that led us to that situation. That isn't important in your eyes.
If the arabs would have agreed to take the majority of the land in 48', everything would be looking different. Sorry that we have won despite of all statistic odds, and secured our borders.
Why don't you mention how it has all started. I wonder what do you think about our modern history starting from 1880.
Who contributed more to this situation: we or the arabs?
.

The question is who is contributing more to it now.

The Israeli wrote: »

I'm a bit tired, but I read some of it. The guardian isn't so pro Israeli. Right. There are non Israeli sources that say other things too. The peace process has started a long ago. Israel has offered a lot during Ehud Barak's cadence which resulted in the second Intifadeh and the bloodiest mess that has ever been with the Palestinians. 2000-2003.
Please refer to the link at the bottom.
.

They are leaked documents from negotiations. They say what they say if they appear in the Jerusalem Post or Al Arabiya.

The Israeli wrote: »

The Jordenians don't want them there.. remember Black September?.

And whats that to do with the fact that they fled from the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem (which rather undermines your previous claim), exactly?

The Israeli wrote: »

You try to shut your eyes on the reallity so hard. wake up, it's the reallity calling. we have a reallity here. You haven't given any solutions. If you want, go over the summeries of all the peace negotiations and tell your conclusions. I'm taking about years 93-2010.. Pay attention to the "wonderful" time between 93 -97, 2000-2002. Israel has tried many different approaches. Sadly enough, the current approach saves the most amount of Israeli lives.?.

I've been following this issue a few years (well over 20). Even in my span, its been very noticable that though the excuses change, and the violence peaks and troughs, the settlements creep onward.

A solution is the two state one, with a contiguous West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, no 'right of return' and a land swap for settlements on or immediately adjacent to the 1967 border. All other settlements to be removed. Golan is something that has to be settled between Syria and Israel seperately.

The Israeli wrote: »

The civilian population was and is partly still hostile..?.

After 44 years of occupation and settlement, I'd say 'mostly' rather than "partly".

The Israeli wrote: »

It was a part of the campaign against Israel. They didn't accept the UN
Guys, you can read see and judge the REAL (direct sources) evidances to the fact the Palestinian leadership is not truly commited (saying the least) to the peace process!

http://www.palwatch.org/Home.aspx
...

Thats a site dedicated to slagging off the Palestinians. I provided you with direct evidence of the recent negotiations already. I'd suggest addressing the contents.

The Israeli

Overheal wrote: »

Anti-Israel != Anti-Semite
.

Are you a programer?

( != )

Nodin

nacho libre wrote: »

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/me...ast.observers/

that was a mistake?

the killing of Tom Hurndall that was also a mistake.

Rachel Corrie's killing was another unfortunate mistake

the bombing of a un compound in Lebanon in 1996. another mistake

http://almashriq.hiof.no/lebanon/300/350/355/april-war/un-report/qana2.html

it seems clear your engaging in distortion to justify crimes.

It would appear that there are no spec savers in Israel....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/suffolk/4534620.stm

suicide_circus

People who use the phrase "moments of truth" should be shot.

Zebra3

Katkatim wrote: »

Actually most settlers are ordinary people who ended up living in the West Bank for economic reason, not ideological reasons. They live there because they can afford it. Governments that made mistakes and allowed settling there are to blame, not the people.

The people are to blame, they are breaking international law and they know it.

They are criminals.

irishconvert

The Israeli, can you explain why Israel has expanded so much as per the map below?

How much further will it expand?

Why is it expanding so much?

Do you believe God promised this land to Jews?

Overheal

The Israeli wrote: »

Are you a programer?

I'm someone who knows the difference between an Israeli and a Jew

gcgirl

Excuses excuses excuses thats all you'll ever hear off the Israeli government

Zebra3

irishconvert wrote: »

Why is it expanding so much?

Because of the zionists' policy of ethnic cleansing.

arybvtcw0eolkf

TheRevolution wrote: »

Also to those Irish posters supporting the OP, its a disgrace to support the IDF if you're Irish considering how many Irish peacekeepers Israel have killed.

So how many Irish soldiers would you say its ok to kill before it gets to a level where we should feel disgusted?.

RichieC

irishconvert wrote: »

The Israeli, can you explain why Israel has expanded so much as per the map below?

How much further will it expand?

Why is it expanding so much?

Do you believe God promised this land to Jews?

"facts on the ground"

The Israeli

A quick respond just to the map posts, and some words:

The settelments are marked in blue.
Palestinian territories in brown.
Territories that Israel holds but without settelments are marked in grey.

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Heb.pdf

It's from 2002, but if you have a real updated map from now, but not this green big spot, you can show.
This map is really detailed, and from by Betzelem, means you should be ok with it.


Any objective comments to the mattereal on this site?

http://www.palwatch.org/Home.aspx
It looks really bad for the palestinians over there, but surprise surprise, no one relates to it.

I'm slightly disappointed. I though we would have a real discussion over here, in which we would try to understand both sides. Apperantely, all what I do is fighting back.
Seams like that I'm of the very few here (but glad that there are some) that are willing to see both sides: The palestinians that want their land back and suffer daily at security posts and more, and the Israeli security needs + the circumstances that led it in that situation. Also, I told my opinion about the difficulty of a permanent stable solution, but most of the writers aren't willing to think about what is possible, but only about what is desirable.
Maybe we should agree not to agree, and that's all.

I'll answer on some of your posts later , though I don't see a reason fr doing that, since it stopped being a real discussion where both sides read and refer.
I'm not offended or something, guys. It's just tiring.

The whole reason for posting this thread was to show the Israeli mainstream opinion. Hope I have done it truthfully.

Overheal

The Israeli wrote: »

A quick respond just to the map posts, and some words:

The settelments are marked in blue.
Palestinian territories in brown.
Territories that Israel holds but without settelments are marked in grey.

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Heb.pdf

It's from 2002, but if you have a real updated map from now, but not this green big spot, you can show.
This map is really detailed, and from by Betzelem, means you should be ok with it.

It's a good thing I can read Hebrew! I always knew that would be useful.

You know as well as I do the settlements have expanded a lot since 2002. Hell when Vice President Biden visited you greeted him by announcing more expansions. Well done.

I'm slightly disappointed. I though we would have a real discussion over here, in which we would try to understand both sides. Apperantely, all what I do is fighting back.
Seams like that I'm of the very few here (but glad that there are some) that are willing to see both sides: The palestinians that want their land back and suffer daily at security posts and more, and the Israeli security needs + the circumstances that led it in that situation. Also, I told my opinion about the difficulty of a permanent stable solution, but most of the writers aren't willing to think about what is possible, but only about what is desirable.
Maybe we should agree not to agree, and that's all.

I'll answer on some of your posts later , though I don't see a reason fr doing that, since it stopped being a real discussion where both sides read and refer.
I'm not offended or something, guys. It's just tiring.

The whole reason for posting this thread was to show the Israeli mainstream opinion. Hope I have done it truthfully.

You've successfully shown the Israeli Mainstream Delusion, yes.

The Israeli

Overheal wrote: »

It's a good thing I can read Hebrew! I always knew that would be useful.

You know as well as I do the settlements have expanded a lot since 2002. Hell when Vice President Biden visited you greeted him by announcing more expansions. Well done.

I explained what is where. How about hebrew lessons? I give for free.

Your map is from 2000.. How about that.

You've successfully shown the Israeli Mainstream Delusion, yes.

Well, it's your opinion. There are more than 8000 views. I'm more curious what the silence majority think. It can't get much worse :P

Zebra3

The Israeli wrote: »

The whole reason for posting this thread was to show the Israeli mainstream opinion. Hope I have done it truthfully.

You have.

You've shown that Israeli mainstream opinion doesn't give a toss about the people whose land you illegally occupy and illegally settle as well as international law.

You must be so disappointed that we're not as gullible as those who believe your propaganda as spewed by the likes of CNN and Faux News.

America will soon be bankrupt and will not be able to afford to bailout Israel.

If a new regime in Egypt tears up the peace deal, your economy is finished (Israel defence spending as a %age of GDP dropped from 30% to 8% following the peace accord with Egypt).

Israel needs to complete a just and lasting peace with the Palestinians soon.

RichieC

Zebra3 wrote: »

Israel needs to complete a just and lasting peace with the Palestinians soon.

I can totally see that happening!! :pac:

Overheal

The Israeli wrote: »

Your map is from 2000.. How about that.

Not my map, but are you saying you've withdrawn from those 2000 borders?

The Israeli

Overheal wrote: »

Not my map, but are you saying you've withdrawn from those 2000 borders?

I'm saying that it's not accurate. My map isn't accurate since it's from 2002, but much more than the green one.
If you think that my map is biased, so be it.

RichieC

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XRyDF3c2S-s/SwmpnREC44I/AAAAAAAADVs/wSdONGVKBKU/s1600/israel_two_state_solution_map.jpg

K-9

I'd heard Egypt gets more US money than Israel, I'd say they'd be reluctant to endanger that.

Chuck Stone

Hello there, global leftist:
Almost every day, Israel's citizens are told of more displays of hostility by you against us. Often we are informed of various boycotts imposed on Israeli goods, the cancellation of cultural events in Israel, and even attempts to boycott Israeli academia.

The boycotts are mostly against Israeli goods produced on Palestinian territory and companies involved in the oppression of Palestinians.

The most prominent argument was Israel's portrayal as a racist "apartheid state" that sets up a wall separating Arabs and Jews.

Not just the wall. Palestinians do not have the same rights as Isrealis and are subject to daily opression. This is aparthied and racism by any normal measure.

Now, listen to what happened Saturday. One or more terrorists infiltrated the community of Itamar, which is located beyond the protective fence. They butchered five family members with knives, including an 11-year-old child, a four-year-old boy, and a three-months-old baby girl.

This is a horriffic brutal act and I hope these people are caught and punished; I'm sure the vast majority of people would agree.. However, this is no less brutal than Gazan men women & children being blown to pieces and burned alive by banned weapons

Gaza residents celebrated the massacre, so this is not a case of individual madness. These are the same Palestinians who celebrated the death of thousands at the Twin Towers.

So let's get this straight. You are saying that this is not a case of individual madness? So what.. collective degeneracy.. a sub-species of degenerate not like us? Sounds vaguely familiar to a viewpoint held by the Nazis in 1930's Germany.

Let's put ideology aside for a moment and only talk numbers. Before the fence was built, premeditated acts of horror were perpetrated within Israel regularly. In 2002 alone, some 189 Israelis were massacred in 53 terror attacks. As the fence kept expanding, hostilities declined, until in 2009 they stood at zero. So these are the numbers.
My conclusions, which are only premised on the data presented above, are simple: With a fence in place, there are no massacres. Without a fence, hundreds of civilians are massacred. Hence, those interested in removing the fence support the slaughter of Israelis. So why do you, dear leftist, endorse massacres in practice?

Everyone supports a reduction in the killing and this could be construed as a success. However the wall has been used to grab land and although it has shown to reduce the attacks it does little to tackle the issues - if anything it probably causes more sesentment and hatred.

Ask yourself the following question: Why do you compare the premeditated slaughter of civilians to unintentional harm to civilians who serve as a human shield for rocket launchers and suicide bombers? There are two possible answers here.

As if the attacks on Lebanon and Gaza were not a premeditated attack on civilians.

If anything these assaults were designed to punish civilians for 'voting the wrong way'.

You are being exploited by global Islam in a bid to eliminate a democratic state.

See above. Israel hates democracy that doesn't suit it's view. Israel finds friends in undemocratic police states such as Egypt and is actively opposed to democracy in Egypt.

There is no state like Israel, surrounded by an ocean of billions of people calling for its extermination.

Spare us the drama. There aren't billions of people calling for your Extermination. Extremists calling for 'death to Isreal' is not billions of people. Also, the Iranian PM never called for Israel to be wiped off the map this is utter rubbish - he called for the end of Zionism. A little intellectual rigour will expose this lie.


Anti-Semitism

The second and less flattering possibility is that you're not a "useful idiot," but rather, a mere anti-Semite.

This word is and it's connotations are used to stifle criticism of Israel. This is a shameless leveraging of the collective guilty conscious of humanity for it's failings which resulted in the holocaust. Individuals like you are disrespecting the memory of the people who were killed when you try to stifle criticism - no state is above reproach. Personally I don't recognise the word Anti-Semitism - for me hate, prejudice and discrimination already have Jews covered. There should be no special type of prejudice.

Is there another way for you to explain your obsession with Israel? Do you show the same determined disapproval towards China, Iran, Syria, Venezuela or North Korea?

Absolutely when it comes to abuse of human rights and oppression.

I too admit that the Jews are an especially annoying people.

How can you speak for 13 million Jewish people - this isn't funny.

Yet we do not tend to explode on buses as a form of revenge; not even in Germany. At most we'll argue with you until you die of boredom.

True, Israeli tends to use airstrikes to kill civilians .

Perhaps you believe that you'd be able to clear you conscience of the persecution of Jews and the Holocaust if only you prove that we're worse than you.

What?

Perhaps the fact that the annoying Jews, according to the Bible at least, introduced to the world the morality which Islam and Christianity are premised on drives you nuts. Maybe you are interested in highlighting our injustices because someone branded us as the "Chosen People."

What?

By the way, guess what the next target for extermination is? You really don't know? Go ahead and look in the mirror. In Brussels, Paris, London and Malmo you shall soon be an extinct species fighting for its survival under Islamic laws.

Over my dead body. Seriously.

And while you're at it at the mirror, look at yourself and say the following: "Now, after I read this, I am no longer a useful idiot. Rather, I am an anti-Semite who is assisting the murder of Jews, in practice."
Does it seem exaggerated to you? Maybe so. But in the bottom line, as far as the outcome is concerned, this is precisely what you're doing.

No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ME_NpnH7jDc

.

Nodin

K-9 wrote: »

I'd heard Egypt gets more US money than Israel, I'd say they'd be reluctant to endanger that.

The main expression of Congressional support for Israel has been foreign aid, with Israel being the largest recipient of US aid from 1976 to 2004;[1] Congress monitors this aid closely, along with other issues in bilateral relations. Congressional concerns have affected different administrations' policies over the last 60 years

(my bold)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations

Of course the most important aid the US renders to Israel is 'diplomatic cover', support at the UN, that kind of thing. Without that, they'd be in the situation of facing consequences for their actions in terms of sanctions, lack of trade agreements in certain quarters.

The Israeli

Chuck Stone, I really liked your youtube link. funny

RichieC, your map isn't bad but carries a problematic headline.
Also, it doesn't show which territories Israel just holds, and which are settled down with settlements.
Also, the left map is a nonesense, since it's completely not true.

The Egyptian authorities have declared recently that they respect the peace agreament with Israel. You can relax.

RichieC

The Israeli wrote: »

RichieC, your map isn't bad but carries a problematic headline.
Also, it doesn't show which territories Israel just holds, and which are settled down with settlements.
Also, the left map is a nonesense, since it's completely not true.

Sure thing payed Israeli propaganda.

K-9

Nodin wrote: »

(my bold)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations

Of course the most important aid the US renders to Israel is 'diplomatic cover', support at the UN, that kind of thing. Without that, they'd be in the situation of facing consequences for their actions in terms of sanctions, lack of trade agreements in certain quarters.

Well obviously from 76-04.

I think one of the conditions was fair elections in Egypt. That went well.

NTMK

I wonder has the OP ever heard the Palestinians side of the story in person because if he did he would hear how the countries being strangled of supplies the 2008-2009 attack destroyed most of their infrastructure how the idf killed 1,000 civillians, used white phosphorous as a weapon, carried out bombing attacks on schools

dont know how it can be described as defence when This shows the idf killed more Palestinians in the run up to that slaughter

Phill Ewinn

Plenty of emotions being stirred here. All negative. Anger, resentment, pity and fear. The kind of feelings Satan feeds on. I doubt the OP is even aware he's being used by the very person Jewish people normally shun.
You're time would be better served praying to God OP.

Nodin

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Plenty of emotions being stirred here. All negative. Anger, resentment, pity and fear. The kind of feelings Satan feeds on. I doubt the OP is even aware he's being used by the very person Jewish people normally shun.
You're time would be better served praying to God OP.

Ye wha...?

Ellian

Nodin wrote: »

Ye wha...?

i think it's actually pronounced Yahweh

karma_

Ellian wrote: »

i think it's actually pronounced Yahweh

Yahweh outta that.

ScumLord

Swap ebony for Palestine



Swap ivory for Israel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmALA8miQY8

Katkatim

Zebra3 wrote: »

Israel's settlers are armed criminals who are breaking international law.

Killing civilians is also illegal according to international law. So is killing soldiers that are off duty and if I'm not mistaken, even an armed soldiers that is in no way threatening you and walking away from you - you're not allowed to kill (but this last part I'm not 100% certain of). That doesn't stop you from justifying it.
Also, I don't know how many settlers you met, but I'm pretty sure I've met more than you have, and I can tell you that most settlers aren't armed, and most aren't familiar with international law to the level you would like to think they are. I can also tell you that just like anywhere else, most of them are regular people who would help anyone who needs help (in case of injury, etc), regardless of whether it's an Arab or a Jew, just as most Arabs would do the same.
I think I've experienced Palestinians' terrorism more than you've experienced settlers' violence, and still I can't imagine myself hating anyone half as much as you hate settlers. It's quite sad. You should work on that.

I've been to Hebron and the WB and seen the misery that has been brought upon the local people by the occupying Israeli military and it's resident criminals.

Have you been to Sderot?

They reap what they sow.

Unfortunately that applies for everyone, everywhere.

Nodin

Katkatim wrote: »

Killing civilians is also illegal according to international law. So is killing soldiers that are off duty and if I'm not mistaken, even an armed soldiers that is in no way threatening you and walking away from you - you're not allowed to kill (but this last part I'm not 100% certain of). That doesn't stop you from justifying it.
Also, I don't know how many settlers you met, but I'm pretty sure I've met more than you have, and I can tell you that most settlers aren't armed, and most aren't familiar with international law to the level you would like to think they are. I can also tell you that just like anywhere else, most of them are regular people who would help anyone who needs help (in case of injury, etc), regardless of whether it's an Arab or a Jew, just as most Arabs would do the same. .

...none of which really addresses the fact that they, generally, are part of the problem, and their presence outside Israels borders exacerbates the situation greatly.

Katkatim

Nodin wrote: »

...none of which really addresses the fact that they, generally, are part of the problem, and their presence outside Israels borders exacerbates the situation greatly.

I've never justified settlements and I think you saw in my first post (and maybe one or two after that) that I mentioned they're Israel's biggest problem. But portraying them as criminals and monsters, justifying killing them by saying they're breaking international law, while ignoring the fact that killing them is also breaking international law...that's just being a hypocrite.

Nodin

Katkatim wrote: »

I've never justified settlements and I think you saw in my first post (and maybe one or two after that) that I mentioned they're Israel's biggest problem. But portraying them as criminals and monsters, justifying killing them by saying they're breaking international law, while ignoring the fact that killing them is also breaking international law...that's just being a hypocrite.

Not all of them are monsters. All are engaged in a "criminal act". Some are extremists, are armed, and attack Palestinians.

The Israeli

Nodin and a few others:
Are you sure that getting back to 67' line will bring an end to the conflict? What about other Palestinian demands? We have been talking about the settelments only, but there are other critical problems that Israel can't agree on, that alone can fail the process.
What about the Palestinian fighters that want the whole Israeli territory and millions of Palestinian descendants back in Israel?
They will not stop the violance even if Israel gets back to 67's borders.
What are your opinions about that?

Overheal

The Israeli wrote: »

Nodin and a few others:
Are you sure that getting back to 67' line will bring an end to the conflict? What about other Palestinian demands? We have been talking about the settelments only, but there are other critical problems that Israel can't agree on, that alone can fail the process.
What about the Palestinian fighters that want the whole Israeli territory and millions of Palestinian descendants back in Israel?
They will not stop the violance even if Israel gets back to 67's borders.
What are your opinions about that?

You don't think that by getting back behind the 1967 borders and winning back support from the international community won't keep Palestine in line?

If you withdraw to the 67 line, and Palestine attacks, Palestine becomes the antagonist: the one that the International community is most likely to take action against. Right now, it's the opposite, and you find the UN trying to take actions against Israel but your only saving grace is the US favor. But **** it, even they want you back behind the line. How long do you want to keep pressing that?

You sound like a child who doesnt understand if you get down off the table and let your brother eat his cereal too he isn't going to get to stand on the table instead of you.

Mahatma coat

Ah but Overheal, you are forgetting that ''God":rolleyes: told that Child that it was his manifest RIGHT to stand on the table

Zebra3

Katkatim wrote: »

Killing civilians is also illegal according to international law. So is killing soldiers that are off duty and if I'm not mistaken, even an armed soldiers that is in no way threatening you and walking away from you - you're not allowed to kill (but this last part I'm not 100% certain of). That doesn't stop you from justifying it.

They are not civilians. They are criminals who are a part of Israel's occupying force who are carrying out low level ethnic cleansing and stealing valuable resources such as water. Their settlement outside of Israel's internationally recognised borders is an act of war and ignorance of international law is no defence, not for nazis, not for zionists.

Katkatim wrote: »

I think I've experienced Palestinians' terrorism more than you've experienced settlers' violence, and still I can't imagine myself hating anyone half as much as you hate settlers. It's quite sad. You should work on that.

Nice try with your lies there. I never said I hated them so please withdraw that accusation. I have however no sympathy for those criminals. How come you refer to Palestinian "terrorrism" and settlers "violence"? Why the distinction? Care to explain?

Katkatim wrote: »

Have you been to Sderot?

Yep, I have. Twice. Passed by the sealed border crossing with Gaza on the way there. What's your point? :rolleyes:

Have you been to Ashkelon? What was once an Arab town know as Majdal? Do you want people here to know about the terrorism and ethnic cleansing carried out by the State of Israel seen as you love using the word "terrorism" so much?

Amazing to think that only a few years after jews were being ethnicly cleansed in Europe they were so happy to carry out similar acts on hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages.

Here's what happened in Maidal/Ashkelon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkelon#State_of_Israel

During the 1948 war, the Egyptian army occupied a large part of Gaza including Majdal. Over the next few months, the town was subjected to Israeli air-raids and shelling.[17] All but about 1,000 of the town's residents were forced to leave by the time it was captured by Israeli forces as a sequel to Operation Yoav on November 4, 1948.[17] General Yigal Allon ordered the expulsion of the remaining Arabs but the local commanders did not do so and the Arab population soon recovered to more than 2,500 due mostly to refugees slipping back and also due to the transfer of Arabs from nearby villages.[12][17] Most of them were elderly, women, or children.[12] During the next year or so, the Arabs were held in a confined area surrounded by barbed wire which became commonly known as the "ghetto".[12][18][19] Moshe Dayan and Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion were in favor of expulsion, while Mapam and the Israeli labor union Histadrut objected.[17] The government offered the Arabs positive inducements to leave, including a favorable currency exchange, but also caused panic through night-time raids.[17] The first group was deported to the Gaza Strip by truck on August 17, 1950 after an expulsion order had been served.[20] The deportation was approved by Ben-Gurion and Dayan over the objections of Pinhas Lavon, secretary-general of the Histadrut, who envisioned the town as a productive example of equal opportunity.[21] By October 1950, 20 Arab families remained, most of whom later moved to Lydda or Gaza.[17] According to Israeli records, in total 2,333 Arabs were transferred to the Gaza Strip, 60 to Jordan, 302 to other towns in Israel, and a small number remained in Ashkelon.[12] Lavon argued that this operation dissipated "the last shred of trust the Arabs had in Israel, the sincerity of the State's declarations on democracy and civil equality, and the last remnant of confidence the Arab workers had in the Histadrut."[21]

So what's the excuse for that act of terrorism?

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Nodin and a few others:
Are you sure that getting back to 67' line will bring an end to the conflict? What about other Palestinian demands? (........)in Israel?
They will not stop the violance even if Israel gets back to 67's borders.
What are your opinions about that?

I already stated that the 'right to return' was a non-runner. Yes, theres going to be extreme dissidents who won't stop. They'll fade over time, once the majority are happy, or at least content, with the settlement.

AskMyChocolate

The Israeli wrote: »

I explained what is where. How about hebrew lessons? I give for free.

Your map is from 2000.. How about that.



Well, it's your opinion. There are more than 8000 views. I'm more curious what the silence majority think. It can't get much worse :P

I suppose I would be one of the silent majority , so here goes.

1) We would hope that those Jews and those Muslims on both sides could try to re-engage with their belief in God and realise that they're not so very different. (I'm personally a bit of a child so I believe in the power of God and prayer).

2) We would hope that no more young courageous idealists on either side would be sent to their deaths by greedy parasites that trade on their honourable actions.

3) We would hope that Ireland, given it's troubled history would do it's best to convey the dangers of entrenched ideas and brainwashing, in this scenario.

4) We would hope that the Palestinian people and the Israeli people could open their eyes and see that Hamas are doing their best to drive moderate Israelis back into the arms of Netanyahu and his scum just as Netanyahu and his scum are doing their best to drive moderate Palestinians back into the arms of Hamas and their scum, undermining Fatah and the Israeli Labour party. (There's money to be made in conflict if you're valueless enough.)

I may be a child OP but even I'm not gullible enough to believe that the horrific strikes on Gaza were done with any other possible motive but to put the peace talks off the table until Obama is gone and Israel can get another Bush in place. It's very sad. It has nothing to do with Jewish/Israeli/Palestinian motives. It's about commerce.

From an Irish perspective, could I just say that I don't know where you get the idea that we are anti-Israel. If the Irish Rangers had forged passports of Israeli citizens and then carried out assassinations of our enemies in another sovereign state under those Israeli citizens' names, the Irish ambassador would have been brought into the Israeli minister for Justice's office and given an (utterly deserved) unmerciful bollocking before being brought to Tel Aviv airport and put on the first plane to Dublin. His arse wouldn't have touched the ground (and rightly so).

As it was, the American and British ambassadors asked us not to inflame what we all know to be an incredibly tense and problematic situation. We obliged as we, as a nation, owe a huge debt of gratitude to men like Sen. George Mitchell in their efforts to help the situation here in the North.

I would have to say I am constantly amazed by the lack of gratitude shown by Israel and Palestine that the international community should give up so much of their time to the problems of two relatively small nations.

You stated in an earlier post that you didn't think it was fair that we focus on Israel rather than other conflicts in Africa etc. but you don't realise that we are exposed to an awful lot of American (Jewish controlled) media. We also tend to know an awful lot more about the Holocaust than we know about Stalin's or Mao's purges. This is because it is Jewish policy to keep it to the forefront. Nobody else's.

You can hardly complain about us focusing on Israel when it was you who started this thread.

On a happier note I feel from the progression of your postings that you have listened to both sides of the argument and mellowed slightly from your opening post. Hopefully some hardline Palestinian Hamas supporter will start a thread and we may be able to bring him/her closer to a sense of realism and justice too.:)

On a personal note, could I say that I'm glad you enjoyed your time in Ireland and I hope you come back soon. Bring some of your mates, we could do with the Shekels/Dollars. If it comes to politics we promise to bore ye to death, but if we're going drinking park the politics at the door. They never mix. Let's just talk about a shared sense of humour.

Jerry Seinfeld, Joan Rivers, Jackie Mason and Larry David FTW.:pac:

AMC

Nodin

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

(...................)You stated in an earlier post that you didn't think it was fair that we focus on Israel rather than other conflicts in Africa etc. but you don't realise that we are exposed to an awful lot of American (Jewish controlled) media. (........)

That kind of nutty talk really doesn't help...

RichieC

Nodin wrote: »

That kind of nutty talk really doesn't help...

It doesn't, but it is true. so I don't know why it automatically must be brushed under the carpet.

Some people just don't buy the "faux pas" that's been created around mentioning it outside the states, there, your career is over if you do.

Nodin

RichieC wrote: »

It doesn't, but it is true. so I don't know why it automatically must be brushed under the carpet.

..........

Who says its true? And its two crocks in one, I might add. Apart from assumption that the media is controlled by 'The Jews', it also presumes that all Jews are of a mind on the subject.

Katkatim

Zebra3 wrote: »

They are not civilians. They are criminals who are a part of Israel's occupying force who are carrying out low level ethnic cleansing and stealing valuable resources such as water. Their settlement outside of Israel's internationally recognised borders is an act of war and ignorance of international law is no defence, not for nazis, not for zionists.




Nice try with your lies there. I never said I hated them so please withdraw that accusation. I have however no sympathy for those criminals. How come you refer to Palestinian "terrorrism" and settlers "violence"? Why the distinction? Care to explain?

Wow, with every post you're taking it up another level. So now they're doing ethnic cleansing? I don't know which West Bank you've been to, but it doesn't sound like we're talking about the same one. In any case, since this isn't going anywhere, let's just sum it up by saying that you don't hate settlers, you just think their armed fanatic criminals who are engaging in ethnic cleansing and other violations of international laws (and crimes against humanity?) and therefor deserve to be stabbed to death and have their babies butchered. It's also not a crime to kill them at will since their all potenial soldiers anyway (babies too). Did I cover it?

Yep, I have. Twice. Passed by the sealed border crossing with Gaza on the way there. What's your point? :rolleyes:

What did you think about Sderot when you were there?

Zebra3

Katkatim wrote: »

Wow, with every post you're taking it up another level. So now they're doing ethnic cleansing? I don't know which West Bank you've been to, but it doesn't sound like we're talking about the same one. In any case, since this isn't going anywhere, let's just sum it up by saying that you don't hate settlers, you just think their armed fanatic criminals who are engaging in ethnic cleansing and other violations of international laws (and crimes against humanity?) and therefor deserve to be stabbed to death and have their babies butchered. It's also not a crime to kill them at will since their all potenial soldiers anyway (babies too). Did I cover it?



What did you think about Sderot when you were there?

So why did you ignore what I posted about Ashkelon? Ashamed of the truth? Do you support that ethnic cleansing?

And yes there is ethnic cleansing going on in the West Bank. Very low level and subtle, but ethnic cleansing all the same. It's all about making life unbearable for the Palestinians so that they'll up and leave for Jordan and drive the numbers in favour of a jewish majority in the WB so it can be illegally annexed like as has happened with occupied East Jerusalem.

And once again you are lying about what I've been saying. I never once said babies deserved to be butchered, but yet you claim I have. Shame on you and your lies.

Sderot is a grim kip.

Katkatim

Zebra3 wrote: »

So why did you ignore what I posted about Ashkelon? Ashamed of the truth? Do you support that ethnic cleansing?

Why did I ignore it? What are you expecting me to say? Obviously you brought it up in (yet another) attempt to pull me by the tongue and make me justify something I have no intention justifying or defending. Unlike you, I keep an open mind and have no problem admitting wrongs done by "my side". You might also notice from the quote you posted that I'm not the only one. I see no point in starting to list what each side did to the other because obviously, as you know but refuse to admit Arabs don't have clean hands either. Also, if you noticed, Ashkelon is an ancient city and every rule that was present there was obtained by force. So the Arabs that were there before Israel, they too conquered it from someone else.

And once again you are lying about what I've been saying. I never once said babies deserved to be butchered, but yet you claim I have. Shame on you and your lies.

So is it a crime to kill settlers' babies? And their children? What's your age limit? I mean, when are they too young to be killed and when do they deserve it because they're old enough?

Sderot is a grim kip.

I'm looking for a longer, more detailed and more serious answer. What do you think of what you saw? Have you spoken to people? What was your impression of them? What do you think of how the city looks?

Dudess

Brooklynn Unkempt Postage wrote: »

Your gonna have to find a third unique to me, 'cause I don't tick any of those boxes Dudess.

You've family connections to an Israeli though, don't you Mak? And I'm not saying all non Israelis who would back the Israeli state's policy and have no sympathy for Palestinian civilians are islamophobes/only trying to sock it to the hippies because god forbid they'd ever share a point of view with people who are left-wing, but there's no doubt in my mind they're the majority. Why would a person support the IDF e.g. launching an attack on a civilian settlement? Being opposed to that doesn't make one suddenly supportive of Hamas - it's possible to detest both.

Zebra3

Katkatim wrote: »

Why did I ignore it? What are you expecting me to say? Obviously you brought it up in (yet another) attempt to pull me by the tongue and make me justify something I have no intention justifying or defending. Unlike you, I keep an open mind and have no problem admitting wrongs done by "my side". You might also notice from the quote you posted that I'm not the only one. I see no point in starting to list what each side did to the other because obviously, as you know but refuse to admit Arabs don't have clean hands either. Also, if you noticed, Ashkelon is an ancient city and every rule that was present there was obtained by force. So the Arabs that were there before Israel, they too conquered it from someone else.



So is it a crime to kill settlers' babies? And their children? What's your age limit? I mean, when are they too young to be killed and when do they deserve it because they're old enough?


I'm looking for a longer, more detailed and more serious answer. What do you think of what you saw? Have you spoken to people? What was your impression of them? What do you think of how the city looks?

So you condemn Palestinian "terrorism" but don't really comment on zionists' crimes? :rolleyes:

It is not acceptable to kill criminals babies imo, no more so than it is acceptable for Israel to wipe out families when they try to murder a Palestinian militant.

I gave you a serious answer to Sderot. The people I met there were mixed. Some were sound, others were ignorant religious extemists. None of them were from Israel though, they were all originally from Morocco.