Moment of truth for leftists (except scumlord because he likes The Zohan)

Overheal

The Israeli wrote: »

"Yes, imagine, Palestinians who hate the people who are occupying their land and settling it. Lets think of the poor soldiers, who lose more to suicide than Palestinian action most years......."

Ok.. Still, murdering citizens (I'm even not mentioning soldiers) isn't a legitimate way in now days for anyone..
Suicides? You aren't correct if talking about average, and it's not relevant.

---

" O I don't know....maybe if you sent that lot with the guns....the IDF, thats them, and had them close the settlements down..."

Over 359 thousand people. How many people live in Cork? How? Where would you put them? Can the country afford it? Are all the territories belong to the Palestinians or part of them (should be checked. I'm not sure)? How can you move so much citizens against their will. Even the Palestinians don't expect to get everything back.
Have you met settlers in your life? Guns? What for? Most of them are not any less peaceful than you.
What about the points about jeopardizing the border and letting them closer without a solid agreement?

---

" Absolute crap, I'm afraid. Abbas has essentially dropped his trousers for Israel, and its still not deemed enough."

No, he didn't.. If you know something that I don't, you can show.

---

" About the closest they get in the West Bank to medical services from Israel is being run over by a military ambulance, generally speaking."
I meant to Western Jerusalem.


You are so so not right. They are being operated in Israel on regular bases, hospitalized for a long term. You know how pays for that in many cases? Israel. Cancer treatments and all.. Search that out.
Have you seen my link from yesterday? Happens too.. Not exactly a bullet in the head.

---

" The biggest leak of confidential documents in the history of the Middle East conflict has revealed that Palestinian negotiators secretly agreed to accept Israel's annexation of all but one of the settlements built illegally in occupied East Jerusalem. This unprecedented proposal was one of a string of concessions that will cause shockwaves among Palestinians and in the wider Arab world."

Yea, but I still remember reading about it, and it wasn't so sweet as presented. I don't remember what. I will read about it again later, if you'd like.

---

" Whats the excuse for expanding in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?"

The six days war opened up after very miserable years for the people in that area and mostly in Jerusalem. Constant fear, bombarding and sniping at the citizens by the Jordanians.
At that time, there were much fewer Palestinians in the area and many of the lands were no man lands, even that they didn't belong to the Israelis by law – and for that, we should return them under a solid peace process.

---

---

Maybe if the Palestinians and the arab nations agreed to the UN resolution regarding the Israeli and The Palestinian states, we wouldn't have been here.
If they hadn't attacked in 1948, If the Egyptians hadn't attacked in 56, if the Egyptians, Jordanians and the Syrians hadn't constantly bombarded and terrorized the borders before 67. Do you have any word about the consequences that led to this occupation?

Your English is much better I notice.

karma_

Overheal wrote: »

Your English is much better I notice.

Shift change.

The Israeli

The thing that people in Israel are embittered about is seriosly: How come Israel gets so much fire, while much more radical countries and organizations don't. I can assure you, that even on this forum, you don't criticis other countries as much you criticis Israel.
Also, there are many people here that know every detail about Israel. They take stuff so personally. Why is that? Learn the enemy so you could find its weaknesses?
I admit that we are wrong in many ways. There is no possible way that after so many years of conflict that has started long before 48 we would be flawless.

That's why people call it Antisemitism, even if it's not right.
Just heard to understand it in any other way.. When was the last time you have you opened a discussion about human rights in China, Thibet, many countries in Africa, Russia(at times) and even Iran and others?
It's always Israel, Israel, Israel..

Don't get me wrong.. I do like European people, and Irish specifically. It's just this obsession with Israel.
Sorry for generalising. I know that there are many people who have objective opinions who understand in what cases the Palestinians wong and when the Israelis are wrong and mention both.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

Suicides? You aren't correct if talking about average, and it's not relevant.

Its entirely relevant, as it shows the myth of a 'war'. Its an occupation
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3916239,00.html

The Israeli wrote: »

Over 359 thousand people. How many people live in Cork? How? Where would you put them? Can the country afford it? Are all the territories belong to the Palestinians or part of them (should be checked. I'm not sure)? How can you move so much citizens against their will. Even the Palestinians don't expect to get everything back.


Have you met settlers in your life? Guns? What for? Most of them are not any less peaceful than you.


What about the points about jeopardizing the border and letting them closer without a solid agreement?

Israel has managed to subjugate the population of the West Bank, Golan and Arab East Jerusalem, which is in excess of 2 million persons, for 40 years, so coming on here bleating about not being able to deal with the numbers is a bit much.

As regards to "less peaceful" than me, I might point out that I'm not part of a colonial enterprise.

No, he didn't.. If you know something that I don't, you can show

I already did, but if I must.....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession#start-of-comments

The Israeli wrote: »

The six days war opened up after very miserable years for the people in that area and mostly in Jerusalem. Constant fear, bombarding and sniping at the citizens by the Jordanians.


At that time, there were much fewer Palestinians in the area and many of the lands were no man lands, even that they didn't belong to the Israelis by law – and for that, we should return them under a solid peace process.

Don't start the "fewer palestinians" crap, please. It's offensive. Jordanians become a minority in their country overnight because of the influx of refugees from the West Bank.

Israel has been whittling down the Arab Numbers in Arab East Jerusalem for years now.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Jerusalem/

I am however glad you concede it should be handed back.

The Israeli wrote: »

Maybe if the Palestinians and the arab nations agreed to the UN resolution regarding the Israeli and The Palestinian states, we wouldn't have been here.


If they hadn't attacked in 1948, If the Egyptians hadn't attacked in 56, if the Egyptians, Jordanians and the Syrians hadn't constantly bombarded and terrorized the borders before 67. Do you have any word about the consequences that led to this occupation?

Maybe if the Romans hadn't destroyed the Temple in CE70?

The fact is that the civillian population of the occupied areas has suffered for over 40 years. Any action by the dictatorships surrounding Israel can hardly be blamed on them.

Nodin

The Israeli wrote: »

The thing that people in Israel are embittered about is seriosly: How come Israel gets so much fire, while much more radical countries and organizations don't. .........

I'll answer this again, despite being sick of it.

Iran = under international sanctions
Syria = under international sanctions
Libya = under international sanctions
Burma = under international sanctions
North Korea = under international sanctions

Israel = ne'er a bother....

There have been and are protests and campaigns against China, Indonesia, Morrocco and Turkey.

The Israeli wrote: »

When was the last time you have you opened a discussion about human rights in China, Thibet, many countries in Africa, Russia(at times) and even Iran and others?.........

I don't know...why not click on my username and take a look.....go to "statistics" and then "Find all threads started by Nodin"

The Israeli

Nodin, I'll to answer on your posts tomorrow. I'm not running away heh.

Originally Posted by Overheal
Your English is much better I notice.

Originally Posted by karma_

Shift change.

You two are funny skeptics, ah..

Katkatim

dvpower wrote: »

I'm sure many settlers are perfectly nice people. Now if only they would go and move off the land they have no legitimate claim to...

That's a great idea. Shame Israel hasn't thought of it before. Now if only all of the unemployed Irish people would go and get jobs, imagine how much better off the Irish economy would be.

Now on a more serious note. Suppose all the settlers were willing to leave the West Bank. Where would they go? Where would they work? Where would their children study?
Removing a population of almost half a million people from their homes, if we ignore the politics behind it, requires building new towns for them elsewhere, creating jobs for them, building facilities (schools, medical centers, etc). You think it's as simple as "pack your bags and go"? And now think about the politics. Remember what happened when Sharon evacuated the Gaza Strip? Israel was on the verge of a civil war. What, in your opinion, would happen if Israel tries to remove almost half a million people (some are much more radical then the ones that lived in Gaza)?
As I said before, the settlements are Israel's biggest problem and be sure - there is no simple solution.
You know the saying "Understanding the problem is half the solution"? Try to understand the problem. It might help you see another angle of the conflict.

Ectoplasm

The Israeli wrote: »

The international law doesn't protect Israeli security needs. The international law can't guarantee peaceful borders, so if anything goes wrong from the Israeli point of view, Israel is responsible for itself.

So....what you're saying here is that because someone might attack your actual borders, you've decided to grab more land, land which doesn't belong to you and then you use the defence that the people whose land you grabbed are attacking you. Ever heard of provocation? You are claiming the right to defend yourself, but you deny it of the people who you stole from? Circular logic in the absolute extreme here.

Also, where does it stop? How long before you decide that the current settlements are not enough of a defense and you push further out again - because by your logic, that's the only obvious solution. Continue until the enemy doesn't exist any longer and your borders are 'safe'.

I hate to break it to you but Israel is not really 'responsible for itself' at all. It is and has been propped up by the might of the US military for generations. In fact, Israel is in a far, far better posistion than many countries in the world if 'anything goes wrong' as you say.

The Israeli wrote: »

As I have mentioned before, Israel is ready to retreat from some territories (if they aren't too built) and compensate the Palestinians with other territories instead the ones it can't returned (too built). It's fair and realistic after so many years of Israeli presents there.

Ah yet another crazy argument. You're saying that you should 'give back' some of the land you stole but not all of it because you like certain bits having spent some money doing the place up. There is nothing, nothing at all 'fair and realistic' about holding onto land you stole.

Furthermore, you complain that here on Boards we don't do enough complaining about China, Africa, Russia, Iran and others abuses of human rights...that it's always about Israel. Well tbh, I'm not sure how reflective of the truth that is.
More important though - are these the countries that you see as your peers in terms of human rights? If so, is that really a group that you want to be part of?

Zebra3

Where do all the settlers in the WB go?

Well, Israel's aggresive want of lebensraum is not the problem of the Palestinians.

They are breaking international law with their presence in the WB (inc. EJ) and the Golan Heights and the State of Israel has backed up these criminals (such a more accurate word than settlers).

If Israel has no space for all these extra people why does it encourage immigration then?

Katkatim

Zebra3 wrote: »

Where do all the settlers in the WB go?

Well, Israel's aggresive want of lebensraum is not the problem of the Palestinians.

They are breaking international law with their presence in the WB (inc. EJ) and the Golan Heights and the State of Israel has backed up these criminals (such a more accurate word than settlers).

If Israel has no space for all these extra people why does it encourage immigration then?

I never said there was no space for them. Read it again.

By the way, are you Palestinian?

Yo soy el burro

Well lads I dont know about ye but I dont buy Israeli avocado's!

Most of the time (not all) they're grown on either Palestinian land or with water diverted from flowing through Palestine hence depriving the Palestine's of water needed to grow their own crops.

FACT NOT PROPAGANDA

Degsy

Hitler wakes up one morning and says to his wife :"You know what,Eva..i really love the jews"

His wife is understandably taken aback..

He continues "Ja..i love the Apple Jews,ze Orange Jews and ze Pineapple Jews hahaha"

Nodin

Katkatim wrote: »

I never said there was no space for them. Read it again.

By the way, are you Palestinian?

Does that somehow invalidate his opinion and post?

Overheal

The_Israeli, return!

I choose you, Katkatim!

/Katkatim uses Race Card!

/It's not very effective...

Katkatim

Nodin wrote: »

Does that somehow invalidate his opinion and post?

Is that why you think I asked?

Katkatim

Overheal wrote: »

The_Israeli, return!

I choose you, Katkatim!

/Katkatim uses Race Card!

/It's not very effective...

That's an interesting comment. I wonder what gave you that idea.

Nodin

Katkatim wrote: »

Is that why you think I asked?

Yep. Who is from where is fairly irrelevant. What they say is true or not regardless of location.

Katkatim

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. Who is from where is fairly irrelevant. What they say is true or not regardless of location.

Actually, I was asking because of what he wrote in posts 150, 177, 184.
Those comments are "a bit" extreme to say even if you're a side in the conflict, so my first thought was that this is a Palestinian who's had very bad experience with settlers, so bad that it made him think they all by default deserve to die.

Nodin

Fair enough.

Edit - Though actually I read those posts and he doesn't quite say that, at all.

Zebra3

Katkatim wrote: »

By the way, are you Palestinian?

No, I'm not from Palestine.

Great place though.

No wonder some Europeans decided to steal it.

Zebra3

Katkatim wrote: »

Actually, I was asking because of what he wrote in posts 150, 177, 184.
Those comments are "a bit" extreme to say even if you're a side in the conflict, so my first thought was that this is a Palestinian who's had very bad experience with settlers, so bad that it made him think they all by default deserve to die.

Israel's settlers are armed criminals who are breaking international law.

I've been to Hebron and the WB and seen the misery that has been brought upon the local people by the occupying Israeli military and it's resident criminals.

The criminal settlers are there from their own free choice. They have chosen to participate in the stealing of land and resources that are not theirs.

So I have no sympathy for those criminals and why should any of us?

They reap what they sow.

Katkatim

Zebra3 wrote: »

Israel's settlers are armed criminals who are breaking international law.

I've been to Hebron and the WB and seen the misery that has been brought upon the local people by the occupying Israeli military and it's resident criminals.

The criminal settlers are there from their own free choice. They have chosen to participate in the stealing of land and resources that are not theirs.

So I have no sympathy for those criminals and why should any of us?

They reap what they sow.

Actually most settlers are ordinary people who ended up living in the West Bank for economic reason, not ideological reasons. They live there because they can afford it. Governments that made mistakes and allowed settling there are to blame, not the people.
You're judging a almost half a million people based on your experience (or the experience of those who told you things) with the extremist minority. That's pretty much like judging all Palestinians based on the actions of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
You're free, of course, to believe whatever you want, and I have no intention of trying to change your mind, but I doubt this kind of attitude will get anyone very far.

And lastly - your regard of the international law seems to be selective. You might want to ask yourself why.

By the way, I wanted to ask you - There are a lot of Palestinians who enter Israel illegally to work. They don't have permits, they enter the country illegally, work illegally, and many of them stay for long periods of times, illegally. Would it be OK to shoot them too, in your opinion?

TheRevolution

This thread is funny. Mainly because the OP can't see the irony in his accusations.

Firstly, how many armed Israeli settlers have killed Palestinian children recently? You might want to look that up as your whole argument is flawed.

Secondly, you talk of Palestinians firing rockets killing innocents yet there is absolutely no mention of Israel twice bombing a UN school that Israel were aware had 1,300 civilians inside seeking refuge? Or how about when Israel bombed a Mosque during prayer time with over 300 civilians inside with full knowledge? What about bombing Gazan hospitals and using white phosphoros on them? How about Israeli snipers killing unarmed protestors?

Israel makes me sick. If America ever stops private donations to political campaigns your ****ed. The only reason America "supports" you is because they need the financial backing of the Israeli lobby in America to get elected.

By the way someone (I think Wibbs) said Israel is a democracy (and I hear that a lot) well its not. A democracy doesn't prevent people from voting because they're a certain ethnicity. Perhaps its a democracy if your jewish.

Disgusting apartheid country that kills children and imprisons an entire people because they're a different ethnicity.

Ironic how Israel has copied a lot of Hitler's techniques on another ethnic group (prison ghettos, internment without trial, no voting, lebensreum, genocide)

Nodin

Katkatim wrote: »

Actually most settlers are ordinary people who ended up living in the West Bank for economic reason, not ideological reasons. They live there because they can afford it. Governments that made mistakes and allowed settling there are to blame, not the people.

?

"are encouraging settlement there"

Katkatim wrote: »

By the way, I wanted to ask you - There are a lot of Palestinians who enter Israel illegally to work. They don't have permits, they enter the country illegally, work illegally, and many of them stay for long periods of times, illegally. Would it be OK to shoot them too, in your opinion?

If they start throwing Israelis out of their homes, building colonies, using a two tier legal system with severe terms for the natives and enforcing their will on the populace then by all means.

TheRevolution

Also to those Irish posters supporting the OP, its a disgrace to support the IDF if you're Irish considering how many Irish peacekeepers Israel have killed.

The Israeli

Nodin wrote: »

Its entirely relevant, as it shows the myth of a 'war'. Its an occupation
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3916239,00.html

Let me tell you: In Ireland people in this age commit suicides too, and you don't such have an army service as we have.
There are many reasons for that. Since 48, about 28500 Israelis have been killed in wars and terror attacks. How many commited suicides?

Israel has managed to subjugate the population of the West Bank, Golan and Arab East Jerusalem, which is in excess of 2 million persons, for 40 years, so coming on here bleating about not being able to deal with the numbers is a bit much.

As regards to "less peaceful" than me, I might point out that I'm not part of a colonial enterprise.[/LEFT]
[/LEFT]

When you say that, what do you mean? + The Druse population in the Golan are citizens and do enjoy of all the benefits. They wouldn't get a better life in any other arab state. again, you are ignoring of the facts that led us to that situation. That isn't important in your eyes.
If the arabs would have agreed to take the majority of the land in 48', everything would be looking differently. Sorry that we have won despite of all statistic odds, and secured our borders.
Why don't you mention how it has all started. I wonder what do you think about our modern history starting from 1880.
Who contributed more to this situation: we or the arabs?

I already did, but if I must.....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/23/palestine-papers-expose-peace-concession#start-of-comments

I'm a bit tired, but I read some of it. The guardian isn't so pro Israeli. Right. There are non Israeli sources that say other things too. The peace process has started a long ago. Israel has offered a lot during Ehud Barak's cadence which resulted in the second Intifadeh and the bloodiest mess that has ever been with the Palestinians. 2000-2003.
Please refer to the link at the bottom.

Don't start the "fewer palestinians" crap, please. It's offensive. Jordanians become a minority in their country overnight because of the influx of refugees from the West Bank.

Israel has been whittling down the Arab Numbers in Arab East Jerusalem for years now.
http://www.btselem.org/English/Jerusalem/

The Jordenians don't want them there.. remember Black September?

You sure that their numbers in western jerusalem aren't growing all the time nowdays? Even if the numbers of Betzelem are correct, the organization isn't balanced in it's views, so it's not the best source. Sorry, maybe i will look for other data, but you can see it as a "win".

I am however glad you concede it should be handed back.

You see. We do agree on something.

Maybe if the Romans hadn't destroyed the Temple in CE70?

The fact is that the civillian population of the occupied areas has suffered for over 40 years. Any action by the dictatorships surrounding Israel can hardly be blamed on them.

You try to shut your eyes on the reallity so hard. wake up, it's the reallity calling. we have a reallity here. You haven't given any solutions. If you want, go over the summeries of all the peace negotiations and tell your conclusions. I'm taking about years 93-2010.. Pay attention to the "wonderful" time between 93 -97, 2000-2002. Israel has tried many different approaches. Sadly enough, the current approach saves the most amount of Israeli lives.

The civilian population was and is partly still hostile. It was a part of the campaign against Israel. They didn't accept the UN resolution. They are a part of the story. They have a huge share in the mess up.

---

Guys, you can read see and judge the REAL (direct sources) evidances to the fact the Palestinian leadership is not truly commited (saying the least) to the peace process!

http://www.palwatch.org/Home.aspx


my English mistakes strongly depend on the fatigue level, spare time and amount of patience at the moment of writing.
English is only my third language, so give me a break. It's not that bad and it's me throughout the whole thread.
Yevgeny, nice to meet you too.

Morlar

TheRevolution wrote: »

Also to those Irish posters supporting the OP, its a disgrace to support the IDF if you're Irish considering how many Irish peacekeepers Israel have killed.

Always an accident though. Like that time they accidentally used artillery against a un observers outpost. Taking several hours of repeated artillery strikes getting ever closer to their target :

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/26/mideast.observers/

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 Posted: 1223 GMT (2023 HKT)

BEIRUT, Lebanon (CNN) -- The U.N. observers killed when an Israeli bomb hit their bunker in Lebanon Tuesday called an Israeli military liaison about 10 times in the six hours before they died to warn that aerial attacks were getting close to their position, a U.N. officer said.

After each call, the Israeli officer promised to have the bombing stopped, an officer at the U.N. Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) base in Noqoura said.

--

Of couse it was an accident that time too as they were cleared by the military court.

nacho libre

"Even if the numbers of Betzelem are correct, the organization isn't balanced in it's views, so it's not the best source. Sorry, maybe i will look for other data, but you can see it as a "win"."

perhaps they are not the best source because they undermine your skewing of the facts. Betzelem highlight the crimes committed against palestinians by the Israeli military. It's no surprise many right wing Israeli's don't like them.

The Israeli

TheRevolution wrote: »

Secondly, you talk of Palestinians firing rockets killing innocents yet there is absolutely no mention of Israel twice bombing a UN school that Israel were aware had 1,300 civilians inside seeking refuge? Or how about when Israel bombed a Mosque during prayer time with over 300 civilians inside with full knowledge? What about bombing Gazan hospitals and using white phosphoros on them? How about Israeli snipers killing unarmed protestors?

And how about terrorists hiding weapons in HOSPITALS, mosqus, and firing from citizens back yards and HOMES!
The bombing of the UN building that you are talking about in 2008 was a mistake, but there are evidence that Hamas and others launch rockets and fire from schools.
don't be a hypocrite. Check how it was in realitiy.
AND of course, in wars, like in every wars, mistakes are made.
I would like to say from the bottom of my heart and it reflects the Israeli opinion: really sorry for all the innocent people that have been killed during the Israeli actions against terror. Don't think that Israel deliberately is doing it as a way of policy.
Unlike some arab organizations that deliberately fire at civilian population. what for? to free Palestine.

The Israeli

The Israeli wrote: »

And how about terrorists hiding weapons in HOSPITALS, mosqus, and firing from citizens back yards and HOMES!
The bombing of the UN building that you are talking about in 2008 was a mistake, but there are evidence that Hamas and others launch rockets and fire from schools.
don't be a hypocrite. Check how it was in realitiy.
AND of course, in wars, like in every wars, mistakes are made.
I would like to say from the bottom of my heart and it reflects the Israeli opinion: really sorry for all the innocent people that have been killed during the Israeli actions against terror. Don't think that Israel deliberately is doing it as a way of policy.
Unlike some arab organizations that deliberately fire at civilian population. what for? to free Palestine.

Oh, I get ya now

Every time israel does it (e.g. fire at a civilian population) it's a 'mistake', no matter how many times it's done
but if the arabs do the same thing it's 'terror'