Stand Up for the Champions - LoI 18 / 19 March

Zebra3

S.R.F.C. wrote: »

Zebra why did Shels make this call,

I don't know, there is no logic behind it.

S.R.F.C. wrote: »

just really desperate to get promoted this year?

Maybe more so than usual as the 2012 season is a bit unclear with what's gonna happen below the Prem.

Edit:Last night's attendance was 812.

TheBigLebowski

CSF wrote: »

Ah yeah sure its always bitterness, whether you go to sligo, dundalk or just stay in tallaght, aby reference to actions of the scum that support your club has to be bitterness. Despite the the fact people were just as loud about it before you won your first trophy of note in nearly 20 years.

Don't let it eat you up.

dreamers75

http://s294.photobucket.com/albums/mm99/Stevem1976/ST%20Pats%202011/St%20Pats%20at%20Sham%20Rovers%2018%20March%202011/?action=view&current=20110318200145.mp4

jebus 24 seconds in , didnt see that last night. Is that Turner jumping in?

/****ing loving that song

major bill

Credit to rovers on the ''drugs dont work'' song quality:pac:

S.R.F.C.

Those toilet signs really are a joke.

_blank_

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't know, there is no logic behind it.

Matthews pretty much said he wants us out of the FD, and they are gambling on it.

Two up automatically this season afaik.

We'll do it.

CSF

S.R.F.C. wrote: »

Yes we know there's scum that attach themselves to our club, you make it out to be the majority of our fans when really you know that couldn't be further from the truth. Also lads at Abbey St, there's not much as a club that we can do about that.

Never said majority, worryingly large proportion was what I said, and I stand by it. My post wasn't in reference to the board and their efforts, it was in reference to the Shamrock Rovers fans on here (stovelid, OhNoYouDidnt, CiaranC) who deny everything and blame everything on someone else.

CiaranC

CSF wrote: »

Never said majority, worryingly large proportion was what I said, and I stand by it. My post wasn't in reference to the board and their efforts, it was in reference to the Shamrock Rovers fans on here (stovelid, OhNoYouDidnt, CiaranC) who deny everything and blame everything on someone else.

More ****e talk from you. We have the best run, safest and most family friendly football experience in the league in Tallaght, despite the likes of you posting lies on the internet every chance you get.

We had more kids at a meet the players event with Hooperman this morning than you had fans at your match last night. We attracted 5913 fans to our game, with 2000+ in our family section, as well as 500 or so noisy away fans, and it passed off without incident in a good atmosphere, as every single match in Tallaght does, thanks to a hugely expensive stewarding operation and an excellent Tallaght Garda presence.

We dont have a "worryingly large proportion" of troublemakers, that is a lie. What we do have is a tiny minority of kids who cause trouble (and will give mouthy Shels fans a slap if they come looking for it, every single time) and a section of other idiot hangers-on, just like every other Dublin based football club does or has done in the recent past. Your own club had a schooligans epidemic while you could pull a crowd, and Bohemian FC also had a big problem, which to be fair to them, they managed to tackle well.

We as a club need to deal with this, its nobody elses "fault". Answers on a postcard how we are supposed to deal with incidents which are probably made up on Abbey St please.

Gavin "shels"

Zebra3 wrote: »

Given that the Board have budgeted for four figure home attendances this season

The board have budgeted at the same overall attendence as last season, but I think we're down two home games. Imo it's viable.

Zebra3 wrote: »

I don't know, there is no logic behind it.

Maybe more so than usual as the 2012 season is a bit unclear with what's gonna happen below the Prem.

Edit:Last night's attendance was 812.

After this season the First Division is being split into two regional divisions, a North and a South, we'll be in the North if we don't get up and well it'd be matches probably against the likes of Finn Harps, etc... every week.

dfx-

IvySlayer wrote: »

Stephen Rice was immense when he came on.

Kilduff had a good impact too and could've had a goal if the ball broke for him, even Dennehy picked up late on, but Pats were beaten by then..

I think CSF should switch to matchnights in Tallaght instead of Tolka - he can give us all an in-game commentary (with Wifi) on 5,000 of us than scour the city an hour afterwards for stragglers. :pac:

CiaranC

Gavin shels wrote: »

After this season the First Division is being split into two regional divisions, a North and a South, we'll be in the North if we don't get up and well it'd be matches probably against the likes of Finn Harps, etc... every week.

Isnt the PD being expanded though?

Hope yous come up, another decent away crowd would be nice.

Zebra3

CiaranC wrote: »

Isnt the PD being expanded though?

Yep, 12 in the Prem next season.

aliveandkicking

Zebra3 wrote: »

Yep, 12 in the Prem next season.

Would be nice if Shels, Cork and Limerick came up.

dreamers75

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Would be nice if Shels, Cork and Limerick came up.

2 up none down.

Monaghan and Waterford for me.

aliveandkicking

dreamers75 wrote: »

2 up none down.

Monaghan and Waterford for me.

Is it not top 2 up and 3rd in first plays last in prem in a playoff?

_blank_

Gavin shels wrote: »

The board have budgeted at the same overall attendence as last season,

I think that's a lie.

Sure we're using the Bohs/Fingal model to pay Conan Byrne, makey-up job and all that.

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Is it not top 2 up and 3rd in first plays last in prem in a playoff?

Yeah. I think this is it alright.

CiaranC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=surChNMSCco

Can a Pats fan explain why on earth Stephen Bradley was wearing the captains armband last night?

Leejo

'Cos he was captain?

CSF

Des wrote: »

I think that's a lie.

Sure we're using the Bohs/Fingal model to pay Conan Byrne, makey-up job and all that.

I'd say it is somewhere in between the last years budget claims and the claims of us budgeting for 4-figure attendances. We're definitely paying more in wages than last year, more than we should be. If we don't go up, we'll have to scale back bigtime in this regional first division next year, but I don't think the signing of the 2 Fingal lads will push us into administration or anything of that nature. I don't want our board to be taking these sort of risks, but it is my opinion that the consequences attached to the risks will never come to fruition because I reckon we'll be promoted comfortably this year.

monkey9

CiaranC wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=surChNMSCco

Can a Pats fan explain why on earth Stephen Bradley was wearing the captains armband last night?

Quite frankly, haven't a fecking iota!!! I'm not sure any of us know. Especially considering Dave Mulcahy was on the pitch!!

monkey9

CSF wrote: »

I'd say it is somewhere in between the last years budget claims and the claims of us budgeting for 4-figure attendances. We're definitely paying more in wages than last year, more than we should be. If we don't go up, we'll have to scale back bigtime in this regional first division next year, but I don't think the signing of the 2 Fingal lads will push us into administration or anything of that nature. I don't want our board to be taking these sort of risks, but it is my opinion that the consequences attached to the risks will never come to fruition because I reckon we'll be promoted comfortably this year.

That's Bohs talk right there!

Ronan|Raven

Bizarre game in Longford tonight. A goal for Mervue that came back off the crossbar, bounced around 2 yards from the line and the linesman who was stood around level with the 18 yard line gave a goal...

One Mervue own goal later and a long hoof/pass from well inside the Longford half by Deans bounced over the mervue keeper and rolled into the net...

CSF

monkey9 wrote: »

That's Bohs talk right there!

Haha, I think you can spare us those comparisons for the moment.

Gavin "shels"

dreamers75 wrote: »

2 up none down.

Monaghan and Waterford for me.

Why Monaghan, they bring f*ck all to the First division, imagine them in the Premier.

Des wrote: »

I think that's a lie.

Sure we're using the Bohs/Fingal model to pay Conan Byrne, makey-up job and all that.

I'm just going on what the board said tbh. And the makey-up job is conbimed with bonuses to pay him, like a large amount of the squad.

CSF wrote: »

We're definitely paying more in wages than last year, more than we should be.

I know the exact amount that was signed off as our budget to the FAI tbh, and it's not more than last season. Difference is this season Matthews has a lot of the squad on bonuses (Conan Byrne for example gets €50 a goal, and €50 a point earned afaik).

aliveandkicking

Gavin shels wrote: »

Matthews has a lot of the squad on bonuses (Conan Byrne for example gets €50 a goal, and €50 a point earned afaik).

That's how O'Neill works at Rovers. Performance bonuses (individual and team) are a key part of the players earnings.

CiaranC

Gavin shels wrote: »

Difference is this season Matthews has a lot of the squad on bonuses (Conan Byrne for example gets €50 a goal, and €50 a point earned afaik).

Great idea, if Shels have done this right then they can take the gamble (or most of it) out of a spending push for promotion

Gavin "shels"

CiaranC wrote: »

Great idea, if Shels have done this right then they can take the gamble (or most of it) out of a spending push for promotion

Definitely the right idea, and for the gamble, supposedly it's very minimal. I'd say a lot of clubs are taking a small gamble to make it up this season, ourselves, Limerick (how much did they make a loss last season!?), Waterford (and them paying a certain ex-Fingal player on a 12-month contract), Cork and Monaghan.

Ebbs

With the 1st division now essentially going to be the burial ground of any relagated clubs, I can see the need for Bohs-esque tactics tbh. 1st division is bascially going to be of LSL standard from now on...but even worse run.

Regional divisions will ironically probally mean a worse turn out with hikes to Finn Harps etc.

If the bonuses are done right its a very smart piece of business, even running an overall operating loss for 2011 and just retaining it would be beneficial id imagine.

Gavin "shels"

Ebbs wrote: »

If the bonuses are done right its a very smart piece of business, even running an overall operating loss for 2011 and just retaining it would be beneficial id imagine.

Can't remember the figures off the top of my head, but we lost €8,500 last season but the previous season made a healthy profit, so we can afford to lose a small amount this season (bear in mind the BoM are still paying creditors of Ollie Byrne each season to keep them happy which probably takes up a decent part of the losses we made).

stovelid

Shels are correct to do it - especially when the push for promotion is incentive-based - as it appears essential that they get out of the first division as soon as possible.

LuckyLloyd

stovelid wrote: »

Shels are correct to do it - especially when the push for promotion is incentive-based - as it appears essential that they get out of the first division as soon as possible.

Isn't it cool how competitive desperation can make you reject a newly found set of financial beliefs though?

stovelid

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Isn't it cool how competitive desperation can make you reject a newly found set of financial beliefs though?

For sure it's a little amusing to hear it from Holiest of Holy FC but if I'm hearing it correctly, the increased wages are only conditional on players achieving promotion/goals/league placings? Maybe the lads can clarify. Given the immediate financial benefit of coming back up, I don't think taking a little short-term risk is that bad if as close as they are to making the push as long as they immediately scale back again if you don't achieve it or you're not talking about huge sums that you have no hope of paying.

Zebra3

Reds-Wexford Young Boys highlights:
http://vimeo.com/21267171

OhNoYouDidn't

CSF wrote: »

Never said majority, worryingly large proportion was what I said, and I stand by it. My post wasn't in reference to the board and their efforts, it was in reference to the Shamrock Rovers fans on here (stovelid, OhNoYouDidnt, CiaranC) who deny everything and blame everything on someone else.

For what? The point here is no-one believes the 'story' you put up here. And there have been a raft of dubious tales of depravity from fans of some clubs.

After the egg chasing and Duds game, that was the biggest crowd at any sporting event in Ireland over the weekend. There was no trouble. At all.

The day of Rovers rampaging are long gone. Deal with it.

LuckyLloyd

stovelid wrote: »

For sure it's a little amusing to hear it from Holiest of Holy FC but if I'm hearing it correctly, the increased wages are only conditional on players achieving promotion/goals/league placings? Maybe the lads can clarify. Given the immediate financial benefit of coming back up, I don't think taking a little short-term risk is that bad if as close as they are to making the push as long as they immediately scale back again if you don't achieve it or you're not talking about huge sums that you have no hope of paying.

Oh, I fully agree. Like anything else in life, a correct balance can be struck between risk and reward.

That said, once you become willing to make and act upon such calculations, you should abandon your soapbox because psychologically and ethically you're in that boat - the difference is merely about how big a bucket you require to bail out the incoming water.

iregk

Now that I've had time to reflect on the previous weekend I have to say this. There was just under 6k at the match on friday which was great stuff and the atmosphere was good. I'd just fear that some of those would have been there just given the weekend that was in it and sure why not try the LOI out. Behind me there were 2 germans over for the paddy's day celebrations and 6 polish to my left who had never been to a LOI game but do live in Dublin.

The game itself was absolutely no advertisment for the LOI or either club. It was absolutely shocking. Ronan Finn and Chris Turner must have had one hell of a creek in their necks on Saturday morning as they spent the entire 90mins looking at the ball sailing aimlessly over their heads. That said Pats had one effort the entire match and that brought out a top drawer save from Manus. Turner's goal was also class.

I thought Enda Stevens just had one of those nights. Nothing happened for him and his passing (read 50 yard aimless thump) was just all over the place. I wouldn't critisise him as he has been great for us but friday night was his worst game in a Rovers jersey.

_blank_

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh, I fully agree. Like anything else in life, a correct balance can be struck between risk and reward.

That said, once you become willing to make and act upon such calculations, you should abandon your soapbox because psychologically and ethically you're in that boat - the difference is merely about how big a bucket you require to bail out the incoming water.

For the record, I don't believe Shels should be taking the risk. I don't think the board and/or manager should be pushing the boat out like this, I don't think it's worth it.

If things start to go wrong, the whole house of cards will crumble and we'll have no-one to blame but ourselves. Not the FAI (I believe the FAI shouldn't have signed off on our budget, but they have history of signing off on unsustainable budgets), not other clubs being treated differently/favourably, not barstoolers, not the refs, not the groundstaff in Donegal, not a fax machine in Derry, not Pat Fenlon, not Ollie Byrne.

I'll still point out when other clubs are "getting away with it", even though I know my own club is currently getting away with it.

It's a disgrace, and it's akin to cheating. Spending money you don't have in the bank, in this league, is cheating.

LuckyLloyd

Des wrote: »

For the record, I don't believe Shels should be taking the risk. I don't think the board and/or manager should be pushing the boat out like this, I don't think it's worth it.

If things start to go wrong, the whole house of cards will crumble and we'll have no-one to blame but ourselves. Not the FAI (I believe the FAI shouldn't have signed off on our budget, but they have history of signing off on unsustainable budgets), not other clubs being treated differently/favourably, not barstoolers, not the refs, not the groundstaff in Donegal, not a fax machine in Derry, not Pat Fenlon, not Ollie Byrne.

I'll still point out when other clubs are "getting away with it", even though I know my own club is currently getting away with it.

It's a disgrace, and it's akin to cheating. Spending money you don't have in the bank, in this league, is cheating.

Needless to say, I agree 100% - particularly with the second paragraph.

Zebra3

Des wrote: »

Spending money you don't have in the bank, in this league, is cheating.

All clubs budget on projected income as opposed to their current bank balances.

It's a matter of how realistic that projected future income is and if it does come to fruition.

OhNoYouDidn't

Des wrote: »

For the record, I don't believe Shels should be taking the risk. I don't think the board and/or manager should be pushing the boat out like this, I don't think it's worth it.

If things start to go wrong, the whole house of cards will crumble and we'll have no-one to blame but ourselves. Not the FAI (I believe the FAI shouldn't have signed off on our budget, but they have history of signing off on unsustainable budgets), not other clubs being treated differently/favourably, not barstoolers, not the refs, not the groundstaff in Donegal, not a fax machine in Derry, not Pat Fenlon, not Ollie Byrne.

I'll still point out when other clubs are "getting away with it", even though I know my own club is currently getting away with it.

It's a disgrace, and it's akin to cheating. Spending money you don't have in the bank, in this league, is cheating.

Ultimatly it depends on how they are pushing the boat out.

If the players are on a moderate wage plus goal/clean sheet/promotion bonuses, then if done right (ie. less than 65% of the prize money), I don't see a problem.

If you have signed players on 3 year deals on more money than you can afford, well then down with that sort of thing.

What I hear is that its the former, its an incentive based structure, and it baffles me why every club doesn't have it.

dreamers75

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What I hear is that its the former, its an incentive based structure, and it baffles me why every club doesn't have it.

Players were in a position to say GTF.

_blank_

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What I hear is that its the former, its an incentive based structure, and it baffles me why every club doesn't have it.

There is also some chicanery, or sleight of hand involved with the payment of Conan Byrne.

We never had a community liaison officer before, so I don't know how we are affording one now.

CiaranC

Des wrote: »

We never had a community liaison officer before, so I don't know how we are affording one now.

Pretty sure you need one of these for licensing purposes. It can be a volunteer.

_blank_

CiaranC wrote: »

Pretty sure you need one of these for licensing purposes. It can be a volunteer.

ok...

We never had a paid community liaison officer before, so I don't know how we are affording one now.

OhNoYouDidn't

dreamers75 wrote: »

Players were in a position to say GTF.

Agreed. It doesn't suit some players. We all know that some players chose a guranteed wage from Finglas over potentially a great deal more in bonus at Rovers. How did that work out for them?

OhNoYouDidn't

Des wrote: »

ok...

We never had a paid community liaison officer before, so I don't know how we are affording one now.

If done right, it should pay for itself...

reading between the lines, this all comes down to whether a certain person actually does any community work on top of his playing role or not.

_blank_

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

If done right, it should pay for itself...

reading between the lines, this all comes down to whether a certain person actually does any community work on top of his playing role or not.

No, there are no lines to read between.

I just want to know where the money to pay an extra, non-playing, member of staff is coming from.

stovelid

Zebra3 wrote: »

All clubs budget on projected income as opposed to their current bank balances.

It's a matter of how realistic that projected future income is and if it does come to fruition.

Agree with this although I'm sure Shels supporters know the ins and outs more than me.

Just because the league has been such a basket case in the past, doesn't mean that - like any business - you can't take some small measured risk to try and expand on a short-term basis especially if it's on a performance system like outlined. It's not really the same as running up large amounts long-term or deliberately obfuscating your finances to pass a budget.

_blank_

stovelid wrote: »

Agree with this although I'm sure Shels supporters know the ins and outs more than me.

Just because the league has been such a basket case in the past, doesn't mean that - like any business - you can't take some small measured risk to try and expand on a short-term basis especially if it's on a performance system like outlined. It's not really the same as running up large amounts long-term or deliberately obfuscating your finances to pass a budget.

Well, at the Fans Forum just before the season started something strange happened.

The fans were told that our projected spend was based on crowds of 1k+, we haven't had crowds like that since demotion, and, in fact, our season average has been falling year-on-year for the last 5 years, and now stands at about 750ish (we had just over 800 on Friday, start of season syndrome, first home game syndrome).

When questioned on this the Board very quickly started muttering and corrected themselves saying the spend was projected on last season's average. Which is a bit strange to say the least.

Anyway, after our experience, and the experience of many other clubs, I don't think the words "calculated risk" have any place in the LoI, it's stupidity. Christ, I could understand if it was fifty years down the track from demotion, but less than a decade after a "calculated risk" massively backfired we are at it again? It's more than stupid, it's absolute fúckwittery.

Gavin "shels"

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Isn't it cool how competitive desperation can make you reject a newly found set of financial beliefs though?

We have a budget set out, if we hit that budget we will break even. Our budget is based on the same overall attendence as last season just with 2 less home games, we have factored in the minimum prize money we can get in the League (€7,000 I think), so if we win the League we'll get a decent amount more than that.

stovelid wrote: »

For sure it's a little amusing to hear it from Holiest of Holy FC but if I'm hearing it correctly, the increased wages are only conditional on players achieving promotion/goals/league placings? Maybe the lads can clarify. Given the immediate financial benefit of coming back up, I don't think taking a little short-term risk is that bad if as close as they are to making the push as long as they immediately scale back again if you don't achieve it or you're not talking about huge sums that you have no hope of paying.

Thing is it isn't increased wages, our wage budget which was sent off to the FAI is just over half of what it was last year. And from what I can gather we are budgeting €700 ish a week in bonuses.

There's not really much of a risk imo. We budgeted only €7,000 prize money in our budget (which is the smallest amount you get for finishing the League), if we happened to win the League we'll get €25,000.

Our budgeted gate receipts is the same as last season but we've 2 less home games afaik, but I can see the likes of Limerick, Waterford and Cork bringing more fans to Tolka as they'll be most likely challenging for the League.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

such calculations

It's called a budget.

Des wrote: »

For the record, I don't believe Shels should be taking the risk. I don't think the board and/or manager should be pushing the boat out like this, I don't think it's worth it.

It's a disgrace, and it's akin to cheating. Spending money you don't have in the bank, in this league, is cheating.

Pushing the boat? If what the BoM have feed us is true, our boat isn't being pushed. Why don't you think it's worth it? You'd rather Shels rot playing in some North Regional Division?

And we do have money in the bank Des, a healthy profit in 2009 which left us with that.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Ultimatly it depends on how they are pushing the boat out.

If the players are on a moderate wage plus goal/clean sheet/promotion bonuses, then if done right (ie. less than 65% of the prize money), I don't see a problem.

If you have signed players on 3 year deals on more money than you can afford, well then down with that sort of thing.

What I hear is that its the former, its an incentive based structure, and it baffles me why every club doesn't have it.

Yup it is the former, don't think any Shels player has been on more than a 1 year contract since 2006.

Des wrote: »

There is also some chicanery, or sleight of hand involved with the payment of Conan Byrne.

We never had a community liaison officer before, so I don't know how we are affording one now.

Conan Byrne is doing a lot more than community liaison office btw Des.

Des wrote: »

I just want to know where the money to pay an extra, non-playing, member of staff is coming from.

From our staff budget, we have a budget set aside for players which is under €5,000 and a budget set aside for staff which isn't more than it has been in previous years.

Des wrote: »

Well, at the Fans Forum just before the season started something strange happened.

The fans were told that our projected spend was based on crowds of 1k+, we haven't had crowds like that since demotion, and, in fact, our season average has been falling year-on-year for the last 5 years, and now stands at about 750ish (we had just over 800 on Friday, start of season syndrome, first home game syndrome).

When questioned on this the Board very quickly started muttering and corrected themselves saying the spend was projected on last season's average. Which is a bit strange to say the least.

Bit strange, but seemed like a geniune mistake. The first figure Joe Casey said he said off the top of his head before he went through his notes and corrected himself.