Job or Dole?

Cavehill Red

Draco wrote: »

So despite the fact that the calculator shows that for most people (even with rent allowance) you're better off working it's misleading?

Yes, it's misleading because the numbers you present are wrong in the vast majority of cases.

Draco wrote: »

Maybe, just maybe rather than taking it as an attack on the dole you should see it as pointing out that low paid workers need further support from the Government. But I'm guessing taking anything in a positive light is beyond your negative nature.

Keep the ad hominems coming as you wish. You made a hames of a website, and rather than correct it, you'd rather attack those who've pointed out it's a balls up.

Draco wrote: »

You've also changed tack from 'your calculator is WROOOOONG' to 'WAAAAHHHH you're pointing out that there are outliers and that's UNFAIR'.

I've consistently pointed out that it's simplistic and wrong and misleading (probably deliberately so.) Now, I appreciate (because you've crowed about this) that the more oxygen given to this muck, the more traffic you get for your other piss-poor 'calculator'. So I'm disinclined to continue this further than necessary.
In short, your website is demonstrably wrong, and misleading, and your excuses for that are becoming ever more preposterous by the minute. (Latest one above is apparently it's okay that your numbers are wrong, because somehow those wrong numbers will pressurise the government to do something about low paid workers. I mean seriously, wtf?)

Draco wrote: »

I would put money on it that if I expanded out the welfare benefits you could claim it would just push more people over the edge to it being more financially viable to be on the dole.

How about you either do the job right or not at all?

problemchimp

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Another "attack those on the Dole thread" What has it been, about 2 days since the last one! :rolleyes:

As with all other threads, the way things go is

Anti-Dole, Lucky to be working people ; It's too high, why are they getting so much, it should be halved, my tax euros, etc, etc, etc.

Recession hit workers now on Dole ; We want to work, I don't want to be on this, I am trying everywhere for work, even jobs that I really have no right trying for (I tried Google the other day, no degree but worst they can say is no) The bills are piling up, everyone is demanding their payment, but after rent and food, there is so little left!

Long term Dole users ; No comment as it is the Cheltenham festival and they are already preparing their bets for the bookies!

So in short, there is always abusers of the system, and that will never stop sickening us, but that is for the government to weed them out and look after those who are only here temporarily and trying to get us work again.

Until some snobs are actually on the dole they will always make uneducated comments that generalize everyone on it and do not want to listen to people saying they cannot get work because "there is always some" "they saw 10 signs today for workers" but never actually say where they saw the signs so we can rush there and hand in our CV's!

/rant over!

Well said mate, I haven't been on the dole since the 80's thank God. I was young, single and with no responsibilities and I hated it. Can't imagine how I would cope now. Unfortunately smug waankers make sweeping generalisations about people on the dole when the fact is the vast,vast majority want to work.

filmbuffboy

problemchimp wrote: »

Unfortunately smug waankers make sweeping generalisations about people on the dole when the fact is the vast,vast majority want to work.

exactly, people need to realise the vast majority of people on unemployment now were working a couple of years ago.


life on the dole is really hard, esp if you have credit card debt, a car, insurance, bills, mortgage etc.

i find it amazing that a site has been created to show how much 'better off' you would be on the dole.

what about when the dole eventually cut you off and youre left penniless with a few years worth of a gap on you cv. will you be "better off" then? :rolleyes:

Chaotic_Forces

filmbuffboy wrote: »

exactly, people need to realise the vast majority of people on unemployment now were working a couple of years ago.


life on the dole is really hard, esp if you have credit card debt, a car, insurance, bills, mortgage etc.

i find it amazing that a site has been created to show how much 'better off' you would be on the dole.

what about when the dole eventually cut you off and youre left penniless with a few years worth of a gap on you cv. will you be "better off" then? :rolleyes:

You realize all these "lovely people" (for lack of a better term) think on the dole we use the medical card 24/7, get rent allowance and every other benefit under the sun, right?

They don't actually even understand the difference between JSB and JSA. They tend to just label all of us together. I'm thinking of changing my name to Deco and start doing weed all day and drinking daily, at least then I'll be part of the scroungers.

Cummybaby

Never mind the bloody calculator. The real issue is Job v. Dole which is a very grey area.

It all depends on what you want in life. If the only job you are liable to get is some ****ty job which leaves you out of pocket frustrated and depressed, then the dole is for you.

On the other hand if you want to get out of the house, have a sense of purpose, keep your social and work skills sharp then go for the job.

Personally in the last 6 years i have spent roughly 2 years working in a mediocre job, 2 years on dole, and now about to finish my second year in college. The worst period was on the dole - those long days sitting in the house, the looks people gave you when you queue at the post office, that dreadful last thought at night that tomorrow is going to be exactly the same as today and yesterday. I dunno if everyone on the dole experiences that but it absolutlely killed me.

Draco

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Yes, it's misleading because the numbers you present are wrong in the vast majority of cases.

So because in the vast majority of cases it tells you you're better off working it's misleading? This seems to be the result you actually want from it rather than accepting there are edge cases when very particular circumstances are met where people are better off on the dole. At this stage I can only conclude you used the calculator once, didn't like the result and started complaining. Have you even seen I've made changes based on the commentary from Micheal Falk? (Which I'll add, have made little difference to the results)

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Keep the ad hominems coming as you wish. You made a hames of a website, and rather than correct it, you'd rather attack those who've pointed out it's a balls up.

You're doing the attacking. I've asked time and time again for concrete examples of where I'm wrong and you just come back with unbacked up claims. I'm willing to change the site (as evidenced by the addition of FIS) but unless you actually provide facts rather than opinion I'll be changing nothing.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I've consistently pointed out that it's simplistic and wrong and misleading (probably deliberately so.)

But yet, you've been unable to produce your own numbers to counter mine. The fact you think I deliberately have made mistakes simply shows your own bias.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Now, I appreciate (because you've crowed about this) that the more oxygen given to this muck, the more traffic you get for your other piss-poor 'calculator'. So I'm disinclined to continue this further than necessary.

You're taken pot shots at my other calculator before but like jobordole.com, you've not actually pointed out the errors. Unless you actually do, I'm assuming you're just taking a swipe at me because you don't like jobordole.com. If you have bought taxcalc, I'm happy to refund your money.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

In short, your website is demonstrably wrong, and misleading, and your excuses for that are becoming ever more preposterous by the minute.

You say they're demonstrably wrong yet you've produced no evidence other than your opinion.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

(Latest one above is apparently it's okay that your numbers are wrong, because somehow those wrong numbers will pressurise the government to do something about low paid workers. I mean seriously, wtf?)

First, I don't say my figures are wrong, you do. Second, do you think there's no worth at all in pointing out a potential poverty trap?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

How about you either do the job right or not at all?

Do you want to actually prove me wrong by providing concrete examples or are you just happy to rant and rave and assume I did this for the worst of reasons? You've never actually directly asked me what I think of the whole situation. You seem to just assume I'm anti-sole and/or anti-poor.

Cavehill Red

I had written a lengthy reply which got eaten by the machine. I couldn't be arsed writing it again.
So to summarise: Your calculator is inaccurate because it fails to account for a whole raft of issues that relate to whether someone would be better off financially in work or not.
These include: self-employed status, the non-payment period following quitting a job, your 'armwaving assumptions' about rent allowance, tax credit ramifications, whether they would still be in the same circumstance a year on from departing employment, etc, etc.
You're trying to drum up business by stimulating argument between the employed and those out of work. I find that a distasteful way to make money. However, if your calculator actually worked properly, it might possibly serve a purpose for some (though I concur with others who have said that the rewards of work are more than financial, but related to a sense of purpose, pride, self-esteem, and other non-financial factors.)

ilovesleep

For anyone having trouble deciding - it was reported today that bertie ahern spent 220000 euro doing up his office. that was taxpayers money. more waste.

to make it worse he probably used his developer mate ray burke to do up his office.

it looks likely that, that ****** ahern will never do time for the amount of fraud and theft and negligence

why anybody would work and pay tax in this country and tolerate this abuse while ahern is awarded is beyond me.

the irish taxpayers needs their fcuking heads examined.

professore

The biggest issue with the calculator is the medical card. A medical card would be worth several thousand euro a year to us - I know this as we have one family member on monthly medication and keep all our reciepts for doctors visits and prescriptions and the cost is horrendous, even with the DPS.