Your Experiences of the Kings Inns Diploma course

GeorgeOrwell

I know this has been discussed before, but I'm thinking of applying for a place on the two-year part-time Diploma in Legal Studies in Kings Inn, and wondered if anyone had any experiences they'd like to share.

I've just completed a part-time Masters degree, while holding down a full-time job and really enjoyed it, and I've been wondering what to do next.

In the very long-term, I'd be interested in training to be a barrister, but I need a good knowledge of law for my job and I think this would be a good way of getting that knowledge while taking the first step in that longer-term journey.

Did anyone here do the two-year course while holding down a full-time job. Is it manageable? Did you enjoy it? Was it tough?

Any thoughts - positive or negative - would be really appreciated.

Many thanks.

Kosseegan

A part time degree would be a better bet. You can do far more with a law degree that the KI Diploma. There is nothing you can do with the diploma that cannot be done with a law degree.

FreudianSlippers

I considered doing the Diploma course (my undergraduate was in business/marketing) but in the end I decided that I'd be better off doing an LLB.
I'm more than happy that I did it that way. Did LLB, then directly to King's Inns then to the bar.

Hippo

I'm approaching the end of the first year of the Dip. Lecturing standards in general excellent, course materials ditto. The tutorials are frequent and especially good, indeed I'd imagine you'd get far more tutorial time on this course than in the average degree course. The small tutorial class works very well in tightening up difficult topics.

There are however, as in any course, weaknesses. The lecturing is as I said in general excellent, although there is an exception to this. Furthermore, feedback/grades on compulsory assignments are not made available until the publication of the year-end exam results, which is most unsatisfactory. The KI library is more restricted in its opening hours than the average university,especially at weekends and over vacations. Finally, as so much material is crammed into 2 years, be prepared to work really hard!

Just noticed your query regarding working full time while doing the course; obviously some people manage it, but I'm working part-time and it's a real struggle to get the reading done. I don't know how full time workers manage it, tbh.

GeorgeOrwell

Thanks everyone

I like the idea of working fairly intensively over a shorter period of time rather than a longer period.



Kosseegan

Which universities do law degrees part-time?

Manach

UCC does an evening law degree, every 2 years.

NoQuarter

Griffith College do a part time LLB too. 3 years.

GeorgeOrwell

Thanks everyone.

I need a greater familiarity with law for my current job, and obviously having a new qualification would do no harm for any future employment prospects. Which may, or may not, involve becoming a barrister.

What's the quality of Griffith College like?

Kosseegan

GeorgeOrwell wrote: »

Thanks everyone

I like the idea of working fairly intensively over a shorter period of time rather than a longer period.



Kosseegan

Which universities do law degrees part-time?

None of the Dublin ones. Cork and galway are the only universities I know of who do a part time law degree.
Lowest cost is the DIT.

Tom Young

GeorgeOrwell wrote: »

Thanks everyone.

I need a greater familiarity with law for my current job, and obviously having a new qualification would do no harm for any future employment prospects. Which may, or may not, involve becoming a barrister.

What's the quality of Griffith College like?

Don't bother doing the Diploma unless you are going to do the BL Entrance exam and degree. The Diploma is excellent but for that purpose.

GeorgeOrwell

Hi Tom

Thanks. It's on my longer-term agenda, but one step at a time!

GeorgeOrwell

Well, I got accepted onto the diploma course, so the next step is to pay the fees. Eek.

I'm slowly working my way through Byrne and McCutcheon on the Irish legal system in advance of the course starting.

Anyone got any other recommended reading? Just to get a head start for September?

NoQuarter

Brian Doolin, The Principles of Irish Law is ok.

If I was you I would just read the nutshells on the different topics!

Milk & Honey

GeorgeOrwell wrote: »

Well, I got accepted onto the diploma course, so the next step is to pay the fees. Eek.

I'm slowly working my way through Byrne and McCutcheon on the Irish legal system in advance of the course starting.

Anyone got any other recommended reading? Just to get a head start for September?

J.C Wylie Irish Land Law is a must. Read it thoroughly.

GeorgeOrwell

If I was you I would just read the nutshells on the different topics!

What are the relevant topics for the first term/year?

Thanks!

keano007

Kosseegan wrote: »

None of the Dublin ones. Cork and galway are the only universities I know of who do a part time law degree.
Lowest cost is the DIT.

Anyone have any experience of the DIT course. I'm thinking of studying law part time (LLB). In either DIT or Independent Colleges. Anyone have any thoughts on this please?

Hippo

Milk & Honey wrote: »

J.C Wylie Irish Land Law is a must. Read it thoroughly.

Out of date now, and you really don't have to read it thoroughly anyway! Study the past exam papers and get the up to date edition of Lyall for Land. Byrne and McCutcheon is all you'll need as a general intro to Law, it's excellent.

GeorgeOrwell

Thanks Hippo

I'm slowly ploughing my way through the Byrne and McCutcheon book, in bite-size chunks. It's extremely well-written and I'm genuinely enjoying parts of it. Other parts are more of a chore.

I've paid the fees, and now I'm waiting for some more details on the course.

234

Hippo wrote: »

Out of date now, and you really don't have to read it thoroughly anyway!

New edition in 2010. What areas are out of date?

keano007

keano007 wrote: »

Anyone have any experience of the DIT course. I'm thinking of studying law part time (LLB). In either DIT or Independent Colleges. Anyone have any thoughts on this please?

Anyone any thoughts on the DIT course as opposed to the LLb in independent. Not doing the course to become a solicitor or barrister but i intend on studying it part time to further myself in my current career.

any thoughts greatly appreciated.

NoQuarter

keano007 wrote: »

Anyone any thoughts on the DIT course as opposed to the LLb in independent. Not doing the course to become a solicitor or barrister but i intend on studying it part time to further myself in my current career.

any thoughts greatly appreciated.

If its not recognised by the Kings Inns and the Law Society I would go with independents LLB, I know you say you dont want to be a Barrister or Solicitor but its always worth having the option there. If you're going to study law anyway, always go with the option that has the most paths open to it, you never know when your mind might change.

Hippo

234 wrote: »

New edition in 2010. What areas are out of date?

Fair enough, that didn't seem to be available for most of my study last year. I'd clarify by saying that Lyall is rather more accessible, and there's certainly little value to reading Wylie inside out for the requirements of the diploma.

bath handle

NoQuarter wrote: »

keano007 wrote: »

Anyone any thoughts on the DIT course as opposed to the LLb in independent. Not doing the course to become a solicitor or barrister but i intend on studying it part time to further myself in my current career.

any thoughts greatly appreciated.

If its not recognised by the Kings Inns and the Law Society I would go with independents LLB, .

The DIT course is recognized by the law society and kings inns. It costs a lot less than the other courses. The teaching methods are more primitive however. For someone who wants an introduction to law the DIT course is fine. Many solicitors and barristers began their legal education with a course at the DIT or its predecessor the college of commerce Rathmines.

keano007

bath handle wrote: »

The DIT course is recognized by the law society and kings inns. It costs a lot less than the other courses. The teaching methods are more primitive however. For someone who wants an introduction to law the DIT course is fine. Many solicitors and barristers began their legal education with a course at the DIT or its predecessor the college of commerce Rathmines.

How do you mean primitive?

bath handle

keano007 wrote: »

bath handle wrote: »

How do you mean primitive?

More in the talk and chalk era. Less of the multimedia.

NoQuarter

So do DIT offer an Honours Degree too? And is it the case of once you finish you can go straight into lets say the Kings Inns degree course or would you need their diploma first?

Or is it basically the same as the Griffith course in terms of qualification? In which case I'd go for DIT as Im studying for KI now and im pretty much learning the stuff myself. Perhaps Griffith gave me more or a grounding in law than I realise though.

bath handle

NoQuarter wrote: »

So do DIT offer an Honours Degree too? And is it the case of once you finish you can go straight into lets say the Kings Inns degree course or would you need their diploma first?

Or is it basically the same as the Griffith course in terms of qualification? In which case I'd go for DIT as Im studying for KI now and im pretty much learning the stuff myself. Perhaps Griffith gave me more or a grounding in law than I realise though.

You would be wasting your time and money going to the kings inns.

NoQuarter

bath handle wrote: »

You would be wasting your time and money going to the kings inns.

How so?

bath handle

NoQuarter wrote: »

bath handle wrote: »

You would be wasting your time and money going to the kings inns.

How so?

Ability and willingness to do basic research are fundamental requirements in a barrister. You have not demonstrated either. The DIT has a website. So does the Kings Inns. You can find the answers to your questions by visiting those sites. It is unbelievable that you are studying for the Kings Inns and haven't visited their website. A barrister should never ask a question on a matter which he can easily find out for himself by checking primary sources. Do yourself a favour and save your money.

NoQuarter

bath handle wrote: »

Ability and willingness to do basic research are fundamental requirements in a barrister. You have not demonstrated either. The DIT has a website. So does the Kings Inns. You can find the answers to your questions by visiting those sites. It is unbelievable that you are studying for the Kings Inns and haven't visited their website. A barrister should never ask a question on a matter which he can easily find out for himself by checking primary sources. Do yourself a favour and save your money.

Hahaha aaaah right, you misunderstood me completely, I have my degree, I am 10 days away from sitting the KI exams, of course I've been to the website, numerous times in fact.

I dont actually care if the KI recognise DIT's degree as its of no value to me, and I certainly wouldnt go and research it 10 days before my KI exams! I was merely making conversation and curious! If it is recognised, and cheaper then i would take that over Griffith, that was my simple point. I also, thankfully, dont feel the need to demonstrate ability and willingness to research in every thread I post in.

But bath handle, I will take your advise and give up immediately, thanks buddy! Phew!

bath handle

NoQuarter wrote: »

bath handle wrote: »

save your money.

But bath handle, I will take your advise and give up immediately, thanks buddy! Phew!

Poor written communication skills in addition to a lack of research skills added to a tendency to advise on topics you know nothing about. Some barrister you would have made if you had continued.

johnnyskeleton

bath handle wrote: »

NoQuarter wrote: »

bath handle wrote: »

You would be wasting your time and money going to the kings inns.

How so?

Ability and willingness to do basic research are fundamental requirements in a barrister. You have not demonstrated either. The DIT has a website. So does the Kings Inns. You can find the answers to your questions by visiting those sites. It is unbelievable that you are studying for the Kings Inns and haven't visited their website. A barrister should never ask a question on a matter which he can easily find out for himself by checking primary sources. Do yourself a favour and save your money.

No its not. Why look something up when you can just ask someone? I would say an ability to efficiently delegate and obtain information from a different variety of sources is more important than research skills in most jobs

NoQuarter

bath handle wrote: »

Poor written communication skills in addition to a lack of research skills added to a tendency to advise on topics you know nothing about. Some barrister you would have made if you had continued.

You wouldn't take a brief last minute then?


Mods should really update the original post to warn everyone bath handle is conducting job interviews throughout this thread!

monteburns

I'd stay away from the Diploma if I were you. It is expensive (c. €10k for a Diploma (tuition fees only)) and, in my opinion, is only really useful if you want to go on to do the Barrister-at-Law Degree course (c. €13k).

Speaking as a full time employee (with no background in law) who is the second year of the Diploma course I do not think that it is worth doing.

The course is the equivalent of a 3 years full time law degree spread over 2 years part time. You are in at least 4 nights a week and have assignments to do 'in your spare time' between working and attending lectures.

The course materials are excellent but it is simply not possible to properly digest all of them.

Indeed, I dont think that you could do all of the reading and digest it even if you were a full-time student!

Before you sign yourself up to the course you might note that:

c. 40% of the students failed Dip 1 (first year) on first attempt last year; and
c. 40% of the students failed Dip 2 (second year) on first attempt last year.

Make of that what you will!

(FYI nearly everyone in my class already has an undergrad or masters degree.)

P.S. The King's Inns has also recently raised the pass rate for the entrance exam for the Barrister-at-Law Degree course to 50% and the bar for achieving a 2:1 from 60%-70% to 70%-80% and for achieving a 1:1 from 70%-80% to 80%+

They sure don't make it easy...

Good Luck!

Chouette

I have been considering doing the Kings Inns part-time BL degree for a while now. I am currently empoyed in-house and plan on staying here but I need to qualify to progress, whether that be NY bar, BL or Blackhall. I have had no luck trying to find a suitable apprenticeship so Blackhall is not an option. Can anyone please advise whether the BL as a standalone qualification holds any weight and does anyone know if there are many barristers employed in firms/in-house?

Milk & Honey

BL on its own carries some weight. More than a basic law degree. Less than BL with devilling completed. There are many in-house BLs.

NoQuarter

Milk & Honey wrote: »

BL on its own carries some weight. More than a basic law degree. Less than BL with devilling completed. There are many in-house BLs.

Do you think that after the BL it is worth while getting a year of devilling under the belt if the long term goal is to work in house? Why does the year of devilling carry weight? I suppose I'm asking apart from the obvious answers.

Tom Young

My answer would be that the BL vocational course trains and examines to the extent that you could simply enter practice as a pupil/devil. A year or two under a decent master is invaluable, even if you plan to go in-house. It's a value add. You just can't learn certain aspects of the job without doing it.

subrosa

bath handle wrote: »

A barrister should never ask a question on a matter which he can easily find out for himself by checking primary sources.

Nope, never. Not at all. Especially if the person sitting beside you in the library is an expert on the subject. It would be terribly unbarristerial to simply ask. Much more efficient to try to work it out by slogging through irishstatutebook and justis.

I did the KI diploma course a few years ago. I think the structure has changed now. When I did it there were a few people holding down full time jobs at the same time. I was lucky enough to work part-time. I know that it was very difficult going for those doing it full time. Very long days, heading straight from work into the Inns. Having said that it's entirely possible.

Good luck with the exams.

stringy

monteburns wrote: »

I'd stay away from the Diploma if I were you.

Speaking as a full time employee (with no background in law) who is the second year of the Diploma course I do not think that it is worth doing.

The course is the equivalent of a 3 years full time law degree spread over 2 years part time. You are in at least 4 nights a week and have assignments to do 'in your spare time' between working and attending lectures.

The course materials are excellent but it is simply not possible to properly digest all of them.

Indeed, I dont think that you could do all of the reading and digest it even if you were a full-time student!

Before you sign yourself up to the course you might note that:

c. 40% of the students failed Dip 1 (first year) on first attempt last year; and
c. 40% of the students failed Dip 2 (second year) on first attempt last year.

Make of that what you will!

(FYI nearly everyone in my class already has an undergrad or masters degree.)

P.S. The King's Inns has also recently raised the pass rate for the entrance exam for the Barrister-at-Law Degree course to 50% and the bar for achieving a 2:1 from 60%-70% to 70%-80% and for achieving a 1:1 from 70%-80% to 80%+

They sure don't make it easy...

Good Luck!

I'd say the opposite! I worked full-time for 2 years while doing the Diploma, I worked every morning before class during the one year full time degree. I got through fine, more than passed all exams including assignments. In fairness I did work hard and sacrificed elements of my social life at times, but the sense of achievement and the fact that I'm now Barrister-at-law is very satisfying. I don't think anyone who had all the time in the world would be able to digest all of the material that is assigned, so you can only do your best.

Good luck!