Foxes

paulusdu

This is probably something that has been brought up time and time again.

Without going into the moral debate of hunting, i was wondering is there any protection for foxes at certain times of the year.

I know that certain birds have periods of protection, but that is probably just to preserve stocks for shooters.

I know that some of the hunters will say that it is lambing season and they are protecting farmers flocks, but i grew up on a farm, and never had much problems with foxes, they might take the odd sick or weak lamb. I don;t have a problem with protecting a flock (maybe more so i can understand it), but, i do have a problem with shooting a vixen with 6 pups.

Maybe i am just looking at it from a moral point of view and getting soft in my old age.

Half-cocked

Foxes have no protection as they are classed as vermin ie agricultural pests, along with other species such as rabbits, rats, wood pigeons, some crow species. Basically they can be killed all year round. Having said that, a lot of hunters observe a voluntary closed season, usually between patricks day and 1st august to allow vixens give birth and the adults to feed their cubs unpersecuted. Sadly a lot of foxes are still killed during the breeding season and cubs left to starve, although the motor car is a major cause of this too.

As far as being classified as a pest, you will find differing opinions. Cereal farmers will often welcome foxes as they control rodent numbers. I know several cereal farmers who won't allow any killing of foxes on their land. Sheep farmers have an opposite view, lambs being predated by foxes. Gun clubs who release game birds also regard the fox as public enemy number 1.

johngalway

paulusdu wrote: »

they might take the odd sick or weak lamb

The above view is incorrect I'm afraid. Without typing out the entire thing again... We expected 40 lambs from a group of 32 ewes in one field. 16 lambs walked out of that field after ewes, all of whom had been in lamb, all of whom had been subject to the same treatment as the rest of the flock.

I can also point you to many farmers in my area who've had double digit lamb to fox losses. Including one who lost 18 lambs in a single week to a vixen who had no pups and wasn't pregnant, we believe she was drawing them back to a den to another vixen. We have also seen foxes hunt in pairs and single out twins, one keeps the ewes attention in front the other comes up from behind to distract the ewe. While she's turned around the first fox is in to nab a lamb.

The continuing notion that foxes are a character out of Farthingwood Friends is misleading at best.

paulusdu

I can only speak from my own experience on where i grew up and i never heard of that sort of number being killed. I'm not doubting you for one minute, but can only put accross what i have grown up with. At most we may have lost 2 or 3 lambs to foxes, crows, but i have seen more damage done from uncontrolled dogs than foxes.

Im not sure i ever saw a fox in terms of farthing wood, its a predetor, like any other sort (pine amrtin, stoat, that we have in ireland) it lives by killing another animal. I do understand the need for a farmer to protect his livelyhood and his flock, but where i do not have any understanding is killing a pregnant fox. There is just somethign about this that riles me.

It wasn't me!

I wouldn't worry about killing a pregnant fox. I'd be a lot more concerned about killing a nursing animal. Unfortunately it does have to happen if they're causing serious problems, but I'm personally not crazy about it, and would make an effort to ensure the young were found and dispatched quickly.

johngalway

paulusdu wrote: »

I do understand the need for a farmer to protect his livelyhood and his flock, but where i do not have any understanding is killing a pregnant fox. There is just somethign about this that riles me.

Foxes around me will be having young, pretty much from now onwards. The majority of flocks here will start dropping lambs at the same time. Foxes have a higher demand for food when they have their young. Lambs are like happy meals for them.

thebishop

I think alot depends on the type of sheep you keep. If you have lowland breeds at a few days old the lambs would be too heavy for a fox to carry off. But the mountain breeds like scotch etc would be much lighter and easier to take.And foxes do kill a lot of these type of lambs.

Traonach

thebishop wrote: »

I think alot depends on the type of sheep you keep. If you have lowland breeds at a few days old the lambs would be too heavy for a fox to carry off. But the mountain breeds like scotch etc would be much lighter and easier to take.And foxes do kill a lot of these type of lambs.

x2
Also if sheep are lambed indoors and let out when there hardy (especially with twins), you generally don't have any problems.

Was talking to a sheep farmer on Sunday and he told me a vixen got trapped in his larsen trap. I asked him what did he do with her (assuming he killed her). He let her go. His ewes lamb indoors and doesn't have a problem with foxes. He facts he like them, they get rid of lambs that have died and are handy for getting rid of cleanings.:D

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

No matter what people think, foxes seldom kill and eat young lambs. (Heritage Highlights - National Parks and Wildlife Service)

The main challenges to the new-born lamb are concerned with nutrition, temperature and infectious disease.
(Teagasc)

But to get back on topic and answer the question asked: Gnerally Foxes have no legal protection in Ireland but it is illegal to dig a Vixen and/or Cubs from their den.

Trizo

Just from my own experience i have never seen a fox take a lamb not saying it doesn't happen.. there are fields behind my house where sheep lamb every year last year we observed the following:


Lamb was born earlier that day(watched by me) and the fox arrived late in the evening for the afterbirth , the lamb was completely unharmed and the fox ate the scraps left over.Lamb was still with its Mother the next day.

That Vixen was feeding its cubs(4) which i found later in the year almost grown up


later in the year i found only 2 left..
beautiful animal wish they were protected

cuddlycavies

And along with everyone else above, I'm gald that they are not protected. It has nothing to do with cuddly beautiful foxes or lambs for that matter, it's just about population control and balance.

Browning

Unlike the Farthing woods friends scenario it is the case that in the absence of an apex predator, man must control fox numbers. It is fact that all major conservation bodies and projects control fox numbers. The fox is the number one predator of concern to ground nesting birds, all of which are in major trouble and of high conservation concern. The important word here is control and not eradication. The fact that the timing of a fox nursing cubs and ground nesting birds breeding is determinded by nature. Fox numbers are not under threat, therefore their numbers must be controlled. Like itor not these are the cold hard facts. In saying that the Fox is a magnificant animal who as a rightfull place in the countryside , but its numbers need to be control when andwhere the need arises.

Mothman

A few times I've seen fox ambling through a flock of sheep, and the sheep arn't bothered in the slightest. The photo above shows this, yet if a dog is within sniffing distance, appears at a gate at other end of field etc, the flock will be uneasy and on high alert.

I've had free range hens for 12 years. They are safe in their roost but they are free to leave their roost at dawn. Never lost a hen. The snow proved that there are plenty foxes about. There were fox track everywhere around the garden!

I leave the foxes alone and I believe because they are established here and know their territory that they have no need for my hens and leave me alone. if I did have them taken out, other foxes would move in and I think I would have continued problems and the hens would be easy prey for foxes in unfamiliar territory.

When I had sheep, I did lamb indoors and never had a problem. This was a lowland flock. The main reason for indoor lambing is the weather. Winter can be full force throughout March and even into April.

I used to give gun club shooting rights for pheasants, but once I learnt that they took out about 10 foxes in one night, they never been back :mad:

Some well made points in this thread.

kildare.17hmr

mothman im not doubting what you say about never loosing a hen but i would say you have been lucky and thats it, the foxes must have a different easy food source and when that runs out your hens will also be on the menu. iv also seen foxes walking and sitting among sheep and the sheep not bothered, iv also seen the results of of the sheep not being botherd pulled all over the field a few days later. foxes are sly cleaver preditors they will not chace the sheep or spook them but walk among them letting the sheep think they are no threat and pick out an easy target, seen a great documentory about wolves doing the same thing with buffalo.

i shoot foxes for a farmer and the field he keeps his sheep in has had very little sign of foxes since the start of this year, in the last 2 weeks he has started putting in his lambs, i was over the other night andsaw all the sheep spooked in the corner of the field by the road, i looked right and there was the reason trotting off in the other direction, i saw 3 more within an hour in the surrounding fields the most iv seen in the area in a singal night

thebishop

Sarah Thankful Seed wrote: »

No matter what people think, foxes seldom kill and eat young lambs. (Heritage Highlights - National Parks and Wildlife Service)

The main challenges to the new-born lamb are concerned with nutrition, temperature and infectious disease.
(Teagasc)

I wonder where these organizations do there research? Definitely not on the slopes of the Caha mountains.

who the fug

thebishop wrote: »

Sarah Thankful Seed wrote: »

No matter what people think, foxes seldom kill and eat young lambs. (Heritage Highlights - National Parks and Wildlife Service)

The main challenges to the new-born lamb are concerned with nutrition, temperature and infectious disease.
(Teagasc)

I wonder where these organizations do there research? Definitely not on the slopes of the Caha mountains.

Nah we just breed weird foxes.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

who the fug wrote: »

thebishop wrote: »

Nah we just breed weird foxes.

johngalway

Sarah Thankful Seed wrote: »

No matter what people think, foxes seldom kill and eat young lambs.

I disagree - from first hand experience

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

johngalway wrote: »

I disagree - from first hand experience

Right back at you John. We'll have to agree to disagree, as my first hand experience is contrary to yours. I've a feeling this is another thread that will go round in circles and be divided in 2 with neither convincing the other.

Traonach

johngalway wrote: »

I disagree - from first hand experience

I agree with Johngalway. Foxes do eat alot of dead lambs and kill and eat alot of dying lambs (watery mouth, hypothermia, starvation, scour, pneumonia).

johngalway

Traonach wrote: »

I agree with Johngalway. Foxes do eat alot of dead lambs and kill and eat alot of dying lambs (watery mouth, hypothermia, starvation, scour, pneumonia).

That is a poor attempt, it's not what I was saying :rolleyes:

LostCovey

johngalway wrote: »

That is a poor attempt, it's not what I was saying :rolleyes:

Can't believe I am saying this but I am totally with JohnGalway on this. Hypothermia, watery mouth, scour, starvation all kill a lot of lambs which are tidied up by foxes.

But foxes also take a lot of healthy lambs on top of this, especially from ewes with multiple births, when vixens are rearing young.

LostCovey

who the fug

Sarah Thankful Seed wrote: »

who the fug wrote: »

If the foxes are not doing what the scientists and government bodies tell us they should be doing, then we must be breeding some mutant foxes

Half-cocked

Foxes kill lambs, oh no they don't, oh yes they do....

Somewhere further back in this thread a poster wrote that the lambs of larger lowland breeds of sheep are too big for foxes to predate but the smaller upland breeds are on the menu. This sounds very plausible, and might explain why we all have such differing opinions on the subject? Am I correct in saying that the lowland breeds lamb earlier? The upland lambing season would coincide with vixens going to earth and the dog foxes under pressure to feed a vixen and litter, and lambs being available at the right time?

Or, are all these predated lamb carcasses ones which were dead/dying anyway and the foxes did what any scavenger would do?

I've never seen a fox predate a lamb, but recently I had to despatch one that was killing my friends peacocks. An adult male peacock would probably be as big, if not a bigger, handful than a newborn lamb. They have a serious set of spurs and are big heavy birds. But this average size fox was knocking them off no problem.

Also, has anyone heard anything about fox predation falling in areas where golden eagles have been reintroduced? Apparently they eat foxes.

Birdnuts

Half-cocked wrote: »

Foxes kill lambs, oh no they don't, oh yes they do....

Somewhere further back in this thread a poster wrote that the lambs of larger lowland breeds of sheep are too big for foxes to predate but the smaller upland breeds are on the menu. This sounds very plausible, and might explain why we all have such differing opinions on the subject? Am I correct in saying that the lowland breeds lamb earlier? The upland lambing season would coincide with vixens going to earth and the dog foxes under pressure to feed a vixen and litter, and lambs being available at the right time?

Or, are all these predated lamb carcasses ones which were dead/dying anyway and the foxes did what any scavenger would do?

I've never seen a fox predate a lamb, but recently I had to despatch one that was killing my friends peacocks. An adult male peacock would probably be as big, if not a bigger, handful than a newborn lamb. They have a serious set of spurs and are big heavy birds. But this average size fox was knocking them off no problem.

Also, has anyone heard anything about fox predation falling in areas where golden eagles have been reintroduced? Apparently they eat foxes.

Yeah - JG's lambs appear to be the Mountain Type so I guess their more vulnerable to fox predation

PS: Fox cubs accounted for a substantial part of the remains at nearly all the known Irish Golden Eagle nest sites last year so I guess they must be having some sort of affect on the local populations - many corvids(even a Raven) appear to be on the menu too!!:)

paulusdu

Half cocked, that makes a lot of sense. My own experience is from lowland sheep, and most would be born indoors and kept there for a few days,probably why we never had any trouble. JohnGalway possibly does have different breeds in different locations to my experience
I think my big objection or problem (whatever you want to call it) is killing a pregnant vixen, but how hard is it to tell a male from female at distance. I know they are slightly different but it must be hard to tell by poor light or distance. This is the reason i would have thought that there would be a protected season for them during breeding either voluntarily or mandatory. But it looks like i am wrong, although someone did mention that some hunters observe a voluntary closed season for a few months.