Nitelink Changes Announced

BenShermin

I can't help but think we wouldn't be having this discussion if Ireland's draconian licensing laws and dreadful system of taxi (de)regulation were not put in place.

Instead of investing in an excellent night bus service pre de-regulation the powers that be decided to pump our cities full of taxis that we don't really need. To make matters worse the licensing laws ensure that there is only an hours window overnight (2.30am to 3.30am) in which it is possible for taxi or bus companies to make a profit/break even.

As usual we have an Irish solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist:rolleyes:!

Zebra3

robd wrote: »

I'm referring to a Pareto distribution (80:20 rule).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_distribution

http://www.irishscientist.ie/2001/contents.asp?contentxml=01p161a.xml&contentxsl=IS01pages.xsl

So you don't actually have the case to back up your claim that you made about the Nitelink service then? :rolleyes:

schemingbohemia

Does anyone know the exact route the 7N takes? For some reason the DB site doesn't seem to have the bus stops served for the nitelinks only the daytime buses.

Trying to figure out where my nearest bus stop will be following the decision to stop the 46N from stopping outside my door.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

And there are plenty of times when it doesn't make sense for DB to be running buses empty. I don't think anyone thinks DB is a shining light of efficiency.

The easy bit is saying that we need them; we all know it's a desirable service. The problem is ensuring that there are enough buses on the road at any one time to cover timetables sufficiently as well as making it economic, if not profitable. Nitelinks may take a labourious route on some routes getting punters home but they usually run into town via a quicker route to make their turnaround quicker. For them to run home back the same route means extra buses to bridge the gap along with extra drivers and hence extra costs overall with minimal realistic returns; this on a service that is barely bone enough as it is.

A possible way to move forward is for the main Network Direct routes to take on late night services in and out of town; that way there is dependable ways into and out of town on regular routes which will get most people within a few KM of home; however even this is years away until the revisions are sorted out.

AlekSmart

Losty Dublin wrote: »

.......

A possible way to move forward is for the main Network Direct routes to take on late night services in and out of town; that way there is dependable ways into and out of town on regular routes which will get most people within a few KM of home; however even this is years away until the revisions are sorted out.

I would suggest that introducing 24 hour trunk-route operation is one of the easiest and most desireable improvements to the general Bus Service which DB could investigate.

All of the necessary elements are already in-place,save for a bit of managerial interest and enthusiasm.

Why not try it out....????

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

TFor them to run home back the same route means extra buses to bridge the gap along with extra drivers and hence extra costs overall with minimal realistic returns;

Hmm, not sure I agree with that. Take the 67N. The run takes no more than 45 mins yet services are 2 hours apart. The driver has time for a decent kip between runs, and therefore has plenty of time to pick up on the way back.

66N runs every 30 mins. Run takes 35 minutes, meaning at least 3 buses required to run it, meaning the driver has an hour and a half to do just over an hour's work. Again plenty of time for pick ups.

I'm only arguing the toss here really. In the list of things I find wrong with the Nitelink "service" the running of buses As Serbhís back into the city centre is near the bottom.

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Hmm, not sure I agree with that. Take the 67N. The run takes no more than 45 mins yet services are 2 hours apart. The driver has time for a decent kip between runs, and therefore has plenty of time to pick up on the way back.

66N runs every 30 mins. Run takes 35 minutes, meaning at least 3 buses required to run it, meaning the driver has an hour and a half to do just over an hour's work. Again plenty of time for pick ups.

I'm only arguing the toss here really. In the list of things I find wrong with the Nitelink "service" the running of buses As Serbhís back into the city centre is near the bottom.

Does your Nitelink telepath itself back into Dublin again? You need llow time inwards into the city again as well; if it's picking up inwards you need to allow time for this as well which isn't as practical on one route as it is on another. Drivers also are picking up buses before your first 67N and they need time afterwards to return their buses back to garages; time is also needed for a rostered break for as well (You don't want a tired driver, do you? ) There may also be a issue with ticket sales out of town as outlying areas won't have many 24 hour shops selling tickets, it will be cash or nothing for most passengers.

Point being, it's not as simple as turn around and pick up on the way back in. The need for a service both ways late on is valid though and it needs to be looked at.

sdanseo

Buses in this country need to be privatised; if this isn't proof of that I don't know what is.

Any routes that need to be sustained and that aren't profitable can be looked at on a case by case basis and if there's going to be people dramatically put out then they can be subvented. But not on the scale it is at present.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Does your Nitelink telepath itself back into Dublin again? You need llow time inwards into the city again as well;

Read my post again. 45 hours to do a run, by 2, gives 90 minutes, on a service that runs every 120 mins.

It's simple to pick up on the return leg. Brighton's night buses run full service routes. It's only DB that make it hard.

Zebra3

n97 mini wrote: »

45 hours to do a run,

:eek::eek::eek:

Where you going?

Losty Dublin

n97 mini wrote: »

Read my post again. 45 hours to do a run, by 2, gives 90 minutes, on a service that runs every 120 mins.

It's simple to pick up on the return leg. Brighton's night buses run full service routes. It's only DB that make it hard.

I did read it but you don't appreciate that there are more factors at play than just a round trip being arbitrary for the other routes at all times.

munkifisht

Clowns! Flipping Clowns are running Dublin Bus (I know this because I know a few of them). The major issue with cutting bus services is that the economic effects are not limited to the bus services. A publicly run bus service should not exist to make money, nor should any public service. If a public service is capable of making money it should be open to free competition. The problem is in this country we see any and every public service as a loss making operation. This is not in fact the case.

The major benefit buses provide, other than providing essential services to those with no other means of transport, is that they boost productivity and turnover by
A) getting customers to and from places of business
removing unnecessary cars and vehicles from the road

This provides as boost in overall revenue, increasing GDP. There is also the social aspect. As Dublin is a sprawling metropolis many people live on the fringes and can only meet many of their friends by travelling into town (I include myself in this category).

This of course is not saying that any spending should be done frivolously, but every time services are looked at the wider implications need to be considered. If nitelink services are cut (which I believe they will be) the effect on publicans in town, and those who work in town late at night will be devastating. For myself the effect would be similar. I for one would find it very hard to justify meeting my friends and spending €50 getting home by taxi every weekend. I do not have many friends where I live, and none I would consider drinking buddies. My social life would effectively cease. I am sure I am not the only one who would be in this situation.

If I were minister for transport (and pray that one day I am, then this country will work) I would slash not increase bus fares, increase services, make the bus a feasible transport solution to many who refuse to use it, remove more cars from the road, improve the environment, save the cheerleader, save the world.

n97 mini

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I did read it but you don't appreciate that there are more factors at play than just a round trip being arbitrary for the other routes at all times.

Look, the only reason it isn't done is because they don't want to make the changes and do it.

n97 mini

munkifisht wrote: »

The major benefit buses provide, other than providing essential services to those with no other means of transport, is that they boost productivity and turnover by
A) getting customers to and from places of business

This provides as boost in overall revenue,

Well said munkifisht.

AlekSmart

munkifisht wrote: »

Clowns! Flipping Clowns are running Dublin Bus (I know this because I know a few of them). The major issue with cutting bus services is that the economic effects are not limited to the bus services. A publicly run bus service should not exist to make money, nor should any public service.

The major benefit buses provide, other than providing essential services to those with no other means of transport, is that they boost productivity and turnover by
A) getting customers to and from places of business
removing unnecessary cars and vehicles from the road

This provides as boost in overall revenue, increasing GDP. There is also the social aspect. As Dublin is a sprawling metropolis many people live on the fringes and can only meet many of their friends by travelling into town (I include myself in this category).

This of course is not saying that any spending should be done frivolously, but every time services are looked at the wider implications need to be considered. If nitelink services are cut (which I believe they will be) the effect on publicans in town, and those who work in town late at night will be devastating. For myself the effect would be similar. I for one would find it very hard to justify meeting my friends and spending €50 getting home by taxi every weekend. I do not have many friends where I live, and none I would consider drinking buddies. My social life would effectively cease. I am sure I am not the only one who would be in this situation.

If I were minister for transport (and pray that one day I am, then this country will work) I would slash not increase bus fares, increase services, make the bus a feasible transport solution to many who refuse to use it, remove more cars from the road, improve the environment, save the cheerleader, save the world.

Well said Monkifisht.

I note your familiarlty with Circus folk,may I ask if any of these Clowns are associated with the Network Direct Troupe ?

You see,as a DB driver,I see on a daily basis,something which my senior managerial staff do not.....the faces of my customers.

I also have interaction which my managers do not...I hear my customers.....they tell me conversationally,of their ill`s,their joy`s,their fears and their expectations for their futures and that of their families and friends.

This primal level of interaction is not something understood by the Statisticians or Surveyors who provided the raw data upon which Network Direct was based.

Even subsequent to what amounted to the vandalization of much of the N11 corridor`s services the Network Direct Troupe continued to rely on "Stats" to provide the confirmation that their Emperor was fully clothed,when a brief chat with some of those queuing would have proven the opposite.

Recessions and Depressions should be the very time when PUBLIC Transport comes into it`s own.

Right now,we in Dublin Bus should be in the ascendant,as the reality comes to bear that multiple private car ownership and use in single households is no longer sustainable.

Instead,just as the private-car starts to lose it`s primacy,we take our assets and sell them off in some insane adherence to principles devised by Accountancy Consultants,many of which contributed in no small way to the current financial mess to begin with !!

Oh well...Bring on the Clowns.... :mad:

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

Right now,we in Dublin Bus should be in the ascendant

I couldn't disagree more. I agree that public transport should be, but not Dublin Bus. Sack the management and get rid of the unions first, add in a good dose of deregulation, and then we'll talk.

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

I couldn't disagree more. I agree that public transport should be, but not Dublin Bus. Sack the management and get rid of the unions first, add in a good dose of deregulation, and then we'll talk.

Hmmmm..interesting,if somewhat dated, vision of Public Transport nirvana...particularly the "dose of deregulation" bit.

I`m afraid the preoccupation with some notion that Unions hold some huge degree of power is equally outdated and a red-herring if ever there was one.

Which leaves us with Sacking the Management,not something I would have been generally in favour of prior to Network Direct.....However events since September 17th 2010 have been so poorly administered that even I am reconsidering my opinions

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hmmmm..interesting,if somewhat dated, vision of Public Transport nirvana...particularly the "dose of deregulation" bit.

I don't agree!

AlekSmart wrote: »

I`m afraid the preoccupation with some notion that Unions hold some huge degree of power is equally outdated and a red-herring if ever there was one.

I worked in the PS until recently. The management did an outsourcing deal meaning staff had considerably less work to do. The unions wanted more money in exchange for agreeing to the changed work practices. They didn't get it, but they got other perks including extra annual leave.

But that's neither here nor there. I don't think anyone feels the management and unions are doing a good job at running DB, or CIE for that matter.

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

I don't agree!

I worked in the PS until recently. The management did an outsourcing deal meaning staff had considerably less work to do. The unions wanted more money in exchange for agreeing to the changed work practices. They didn't get it, but they got other perks including extra annual leave.

The PS ain`t Dublin Bus,thats for sure.....remember DB never came within Bertie`s "Benchmarking" scam and all that it brought with it.

Every bit of outsourcing within Dublin Bus has been accompanied by a swift reduction of it`s own workforce,particularly in the Maintenance and Administration sectors.

Allied to this was the deferral of the wage increase due under the last element of the "Sustaining Progress" deal,a paymernt which is now unlikely ever to be made.

However what the "Unions" did agree to within Dublin Bus was the introduction of new working conditions with lower wage rates for new staff and new rostering arrangements.

In addition we now have full acceptance of many new-technological working arrangements which not too long ago would have merited work-to-rules or strikes for sure.

This and other examples of DB staff accepting change without the former time-honoured confrontation is,i`m afraid at variance with the perception of some PS Union dominated entity.

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

The PS ain`t Dublin Bus,thats for sure....

The same unions...

L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

The same unions...

Generally public service office workers aren't in the NBRU...

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

The same unions...

Not the "same people",not the "same jobs",in fact hardly any "sameness" other than a set of initials.

In my grade there`s only the two...SIPTU and the NBRU.

Each as inneffectual as the other in many ways.

I`m afraid the notion of serried ranks of flat-capped "brothers" in DB at any rate is well past the sell-by date.

Whilst it may well be the case still within the Office Based Civil Service,I can assure you DB has moved further along the road....as pressure groups such as the Busworkers Action Group have discovered,somewhat to their surprise I feel.

ArmaniJeanss

n97 mini wrote: »

The same unions...

I think Alek is right about this - relatively big changes can happen in DB without the drivers going on strike or looking for upheaval money or whatever.

For example the massive changes to the routes during Network Direct, or the fact that a new type of bus seems to be introduced every 18 months.
In various other companies or in parts of the public service these sort of changes would farcically lead to strikes and compensation payment etc.

AlekSmart

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I think Alek is right about this - relatively big changes can happen in DB without the drivers going on strike or looking for upheaval money or whatever.

For example the massive changes to the routes during Network Direct, or the fact that a new type of bus seems to be introduced every 18 months.
In various other companies or in parts of the public service these sort of changes would farcically lead to strikes and compensation payment etc.

Going on my own personal experiences in the industry since the early 1970`s i tend to smile wryly when this hoary old chesnut is trotted out.

The facts remain that even before the "breakup" of the CIE group the Trades Unions old and short-lived militancy was proving un-Irish in it`s concept.

Right back to the days of the DUTC and Jim Larkin,the (mainly British based) Unions discovered a certain difference of purpose in their Irish memberships when compared to the serried militarized masses "on the mainland".

Sadly many people remain firmly rooted in a belief that some "Citizen Smith" type of representation exists on the ground.

What many in the "Privatize it now" camp fail to comprehend is that all of the major successful players in the Private market are possessive of highly organized Worker Representation mechanisms.

Stagecoach,FirstGroup,Arriva and even more relevant the mainland European groupings now entering the UK markets such as the French RATP,German DB and Dutch NED Rail groupings are all Unionised to a degree which our "native" brothers can only dream of.

I rather suspect that the elements which most bother n97 mini and others have somewhat more to do with our own national psychology rather than any mass mobilization of the masses.....:)

n97 mini

Let us not forget that Dublin Bus members of SIPTU and the NBRU voted for stike action as recently as February 2009.

Action by drivers then affected several dozen of DB's routes, some routes being cancelled entirely, over a period of several days, leaving tens of thousands of commuters stranded.

How many times in the last decade have there been transport strikes, or threatened transport strikes?

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Let us not forget that Dublin Bus members of SIPTU and the NBRU voted for stike action as recently as February 2009.

Action by drivers then affected several dozen of DB's routes, some routes being cancelled entirely, over a period of several days, leaving tens of thousands of commuters stranded.

How many times in the last decade have there been transport strikes, or threatened transport strikes?

In one depot - when drivers from that depot attempted to extend this to other depots they were told by their colleagues where to go.

Polar101

Why does the bus service in Dublin shut down after 11:30pm (ish) anyway? I can somehow understand the Nitelink service wouldn't be profitable on some weekday nights, but surely there would be enough demand for buses to run till, say, 1am? 11:30pm is very early for a city to shut down, and I haven't really seen this happen elsewhere in Europe.

Corruptedmorals

robd wrote: »

Also, the nitelink is only cheap if you're on your own. It's the same price for me and the missus to get a taxi to the door.

Good point in that for a lot of people in a group, taxis are just as cheap or cheaper. But Nitelinks serve places that very far out. The 66N fare is €5, the taxi is about €30. Lots of people, like myself, go out with people who live nowhere near them and rely on the Nitelink to lower the cost of a night out substantially. Several routes go out a great distance, not just mine.

Terrible they've scrapped a few routes, were those generally very underused ones though? Very relieved I can't find any changes in my route, even the times!

Azureus

I'm really relieved that there are no changes (that I can see) in my route, but I really feel for anybody affected by this. The Nitelink service was crap anyway in comparison to any major European city. We are supposed to be a capital, and while encouraging people to go local instead is all well and good that has larger economic effects on businesses/employment etc aswell as tourism.

Im just glad the service hasn't been completely cancelled as was rumoured a month or two ago, that would have been a nightmare.

dowlingm

NTA should take over Nitelink and invite tenders for bundles of routes. It shouldn't be up to DB to radically reduce night service in the city off its own bat.

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

NTA should take over Nitelink and invite tenders for bundles of routes. It shouldn't be up to DB to radically reduce night service in the city off its own bat.

Private companies have been welcome to apply for same yet they have not applied to run late night buses in the 20 years that the city has had them, bar for Finnegans of Bray. I can't see many of them wanting to give it a go between DB curbing it's remaining services and routes, less crowds in the city at night to carry home and a glut of taxis to get you door to door. There are plenty of good reasons why DB are cutting down on Nitelink in spite of it being such a cash cow as people wrongly assume it to be and the same issues will ensure that other carriers won't be raking it in either if they bother to run same.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Private companies have been welcome to apply for same yet they have not applied to run late night buses in the 20 years that the city has had them, bar for Finnegans of Bray. I can't see many of them wanting to give it a go between DB curbing it's remaining services and routes, less crowds in the city at night to carry home and a glut of taxis to get you door to door. There are plenty of good reasons why DB are cutting down on Nitelink in spite of it being such a cash cow as people wrongly assume it to be and the same issues will ensure that other carriers won't be raking it in either if they bother to run same.

Naas Carlow Kilcullen and Waterford have a nitelink service of sorts with JJ Kavanagh's busses at 11.15pm and 12.55am to waterford from Georges Quay:) the 11.15pm bus is usually fairly full.

icdg

AlekSmart wrote: »

Go
Stagecoach,FirstGroup,Arriva and even more relevant the mainland European groupings now entering the UK markets such as the French RATP,German DB and Dutch NED Rail groupings are all Unionised to a degree which our "native" brothers can only dream of.

The ironic thing about the winning of contracts by the latter three (although I didn't think RATP had any UK operations, or indeed any operations outside of the city of Paris and its environs) is that this is called "privatisation" but look who are the owners of these companies:

- RATP is owned by the Ille-de-France regional transport authority.
- Deutsche Bahn AG is (despite several aborted privatisation plans since nearly the day it came into existance) still wholly owned by the Government of the Federal Republic of Germany.
- Neddrailways is a trading name of Nederlandese Spoorwegen which is wholly owned by the Government of the Netherlands.

Hardly private sector entities, are they? One local government entity and two state owned companies...

AlekSmart

icdg wrote: »

The ironic thing about the winning of contracts by the latter three (although I didn't think RATP had any UK operations, or indeed any operations outside of the city of Paris and its environs) is that this is called "privatisation" but look who are the owners of these companies:

- RATP is owned by the Ille-de-France regional transport authority.
- Deutsche Bahn AG is (despite several aborted privatisation plans since nearly the day it came into existance) still wholly owned by the Government of the Federal Republic of Germany.
- Neddrailways is a trading name of Nederlandese Spoorwegen which is wholly owned by the Government of the Netherlands.

Hardly private sector entities, are they? One local government entity and two state owned companies...

Absolutely icdg,poor old Baroness Thatcher and Nick Ridley`s great adventure,and indeed a somewhat fitting end-game to the UK`s almost 3 decade experiment with Public Transport Deregulation is the emergence of a far purer "Public Service" ethos than any of the traditional old-style players could ever manage.

Imagine if you can,the Huns,Frogs and Clog wearers now running a significant and growing swathe of UK public transport and that`s after a host of Conservatlve Party friendly,thrusting,forward seeing conglomerates such as Stagecoach,Arriva and FirstGroup having had most of the preceeding 30 years to do it "Their Way".

The Managing Director (Designate) of Surface Transport for London (TfL),Leon Daniels (Formerly a senior First Group Executive),made quite a thought provoking contribution recently when he wrote regarding the Europeanization of UK public Transport.....

At the same time we see continued interest in the British market by overseas transport groups. The long drawn out reshuffle of the French companies has now established RATP firmly in the UK with operations in London and elsewhere plus a clear intention to expand further. Overseas transport groups often have access to cheap capital and are more relaxed about profit margins on contracted work so do pose a threat to the traditional bus companies in UK.

Hopefully Leo Varadakar will take the time to immerse himself in a bit of recent Public Transport history before charging off on the tired old nag of Privatization at all costs,a mount which,for sure,won very few Grand Nationals in England but did line the pockets of some well placed "connections"

Losty Dublin: Private companies have been welcome to apply for same yet they have not applied to run late night buses in the 20 years that the city has had them, bar for Finnegans of Bray.

It`s probably worth remembering that the initial NiteLink system was designed and implimented as a "Public-Private-Partnership.

The Private Operators (of whom,commendably, only Finnegan of Bray remains) were allocated different specific routes and had the O Connell St area as their Terminus.

I do recall quite a problem with departures failing to operate due to non appearance of vehicles and also a reluctance on the part of some operators to operate unless a certain load-factor was achieved.

Again it`s also worth considering that the concept of a Night Bus Service was seen more of a means to rapidly empty a city-centre of tired and emotional crowds,which were proving difficult to police,rather than introducing any European style cosmopolitan lifestyle.

n97 mini

Polar101 wrote: »

Why does the bus service in Dublin shut down after 11:30pm (ish) anyway?

I was told by a prominent businessman recently that the reason is the unions don't want their members dealing with drunks. In a way they're right, but the answer is to provide extra supervision/security late at night. I'm not sure whose responsibility that is.

schemingbohemia

n97 mini wrote: »

I was told by a prominent businessman recently that the reason is the unions don't want their members dealing with drunks. In a way they're right, but the answer is to provide extra supervision/security late at night. I'm not sure whose responsibility that is.

And prominent businessmen know the workings of Dublin Bus?

AlekSmart

n97 mini : I was told by a prominent businessman recently that the reason is the unions don't want their members dealing with drunks. In a way they're right, but the answer is to provide extra supervision/security late at night. I'm not sure whose responsibility that is.

The businessman may be prominent,but it does`nt prevent him being ill-informed.

The "Unions" have little to do with the time of the last-bus.

In facta,the "Unions" and Company have for some years now an agreement in place which allows for full night-time operation.

The notion that it`s "Unions" which don`t want to have their members "dealing with drunks" is also somewhat out of kilter as the company is by far the greatest potential loser if/when some drunken dope falls and breaks his/her ass on a Bus.

I cope with Drunks and assorted other substance abusers each and every day because it`s become an integral part of what Irish society expects of me.

I don`t recieve any extra payment for the level of extra attention and concern I must give to such folk,at the expense of other deserving customers I might add.

However,I would lose no sleep whatever over leaving some wobbly,agressive,spittle flecked,bottle clutching individual in my wake should the opportunity present itself.

The entire issue of Supervision/Security on the Bus Service is a different can of worms altogether,as even though Dublin Bus possesses a most comprehensive and modern set of Bye-Laws,there remains a certain unwillingness to enforce them.

n97 mini

schemingbohemia wrote: »

And prominent businessmen know the workings of Dublin Bus?

Sorry, I should have clarified. He has 40 years experience of dealing with the unions and knows all the heads involved.

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

the company is by far the greatest potential loser if/when some drunken dope falls and breaks his/her ass on a Bus.

Are you saying DB has no insurance to cover such events?

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

Are you saying DB has no insurance to cover such events?

?...Good Heavens,whyever would you suggest such a thing ?

Of course DB is covered by Public Liability Insurance....something which ,I`m sure,your businessman accquaintance will be equally familiar with.

However,Insurance,particularly PL insurance does not come cheap and the providers of same will be very cogniscent of the levels of exposure to risk in all areas where the "Public" may wish to test such cover.

However,to return to the original topic,it`s simply untrue to portray "The Unions" as being some form of omnipotent group dictating policy as the reality is otherwise.

Perhaps,on reflection,this topic might be better debated by merging with some of the many Public Sector vs Private Sector threads which appear to operate on an ad nauseum basis.

schemingbohemia

n97 mini wrote: »

Sorry, I should have clarified. He has 40 years experience of dealing with the unions and knows all the heads involved.

deary me, all unions are the same? so NBRU and TEEU are the same? you really should stop posting on this as you're just making a show of yourself.

n97 mini

AlekSmart wrote: »

?...Good Heavens,whyever would you suggest such a thing ?

I didn't, you did:

AlekSmart wrote: »

the company is by far the greatest potential loser if/when some drunken dope falls and breaks his/her ass on a Bus.

schemingbohemia wrote: »

deary me, all unions are the same?

Pretty much.

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

I didn't, you did:

Ahhh I think I see where n97 mini is coming from now....:D

Is it His perception that a drunken passenger slippin/tripping or falling and making a successful claim against Dublin Bus`s Public Liability Policy does not constitute a quantifiable loss to the company ?

For sure any such claim would be met by the Insurer concerned but that does not mean that DB or any insured corporate entity shrugs its shoulders and strolls on.

The insurance industry will closely monitor it`s exposure to risk on a very detailed basis and I`m quite confident that DB`s public liability premium will reflect that.

It seems as if n97 mini is suggesting that because a company has such cover that it`s free from any further worries ?

Or am I missing some deeper point of order here ?

It`s also worth considering how such exposure to drunken bufoonery has associated knock-on effects on the greater public perception of that operators services.

Dublin Bus,and before it CIE`s Dublin City Bus Services,has had a long and torrid involvement with routes serving areas with a long (proud ?) tradition of thuggery and malicious violent behaviour.

It could be argued that the instigators and propagators of such carry-on were pandered to for far too long,with the end result being the lowering of regard for the Public Bus Service to that of a last-regard option,best avoided if at all possible.

Thankfully,the Dublin Bus years have seen a reduction in that trend,with such routes now being very few and far between (But still sadly extant ).

It`s quite educational to observe the level of dificulties which Veolia/RPA are having with Luas,particularly on the Red Line which indicates the continuing tolerance we have for pandering to anti-social nutcases intent on disturbing everybody elses peaceful commute.

Either way,a tolerance of such behaviour,carries with it a significant risk of both financial and reputational loss which can last well beyond the periods in which it occurs...and that most certainly is difficult to insure against....unless there are businessmen who can demonstrate otherwise ?

Cookie_Monster

but Alek, is DB not self insured? (or is that only for the motor insurance side of it)

If they are self insured then it's zero cost to them, as the premiums wont go up and the will have put the reserves aside to pay for such an eventuality anyway.

schemingbohemia

AlekSmart wrote: »

....unless there are businessmen who can demonstrate otherwise ?

They'd have to be prominent businessmen with an unrivalled knowledge of union activities, surely! Otherwise their views could merely be assigned to the "fella i met in a pub told me so it must be true....." brigade?

By the way I was sure that DB were self-insured also for both vehicle and public liability.

Cookie_Monster

as an aside, for me the nitelink is a no brainer getting home. Taxi from DL is 7 or 8, bus is 5. from town 35-40 and bus is still 5. can't go wrong. So from town I'd need to ge doing with at least 6 others to break even on a taxi, I don't think thats ever happened...

stop

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So from town I'd need to ge doing with at least 6 others to break even on a taxi, I don't think thats ever happened...

Charlie Sheen something somthing...

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but Alek, is DB not self insured? (or is that only for the motor insurance side of it)

If they are self insured then it's zero cost to them, as the premiums wont go up and the will have put the reserves aside to pay for such an eventuality anyway.

Cookie_Monster,I understand that self-insuring was the applicable situation up until the mid 1990`s.

The insurance aspects are AFAIAA looked after by the CIE group finance department.

The appointment of Dorothea Dowling as Group Liability Manager in the mid 1990`s saw a major overhaul of the groups entire Liabiity and Insurance business.

It is fair to say that Ms Dowling oversaw the first serious remedial actions to curb the practice of fraudulent claiming against State or Semi State entities.

My current understanding is that the CIE group now has a sophisticated reinsurance operation which sees most,if not all, of it`s risk groupings tendered out to to the general Insurance market.

antoinolachtnai

They self-insure the small stuff up to a certain limit. There is a policy in place to manage larger claims. Details are in the annual report.

There is also a massive reserve of profits set aside for claims, around 80m euros, on the balance sheet. It is extremely unlikely that this reserve will ever really be touched. DB's payout claims per year are in the order of 8-10m, going from memory (again, this is all in the annual report). Adding money to the reserve was a way of keeping profits low during the good times, seemingly to justify an increase in subsidies.

ax586

From Dublin Bus.ie



Dublin Bus wishes to advise customers of changes to Nitelink services. The revised services will come into effect from Friday 25th March 2011. Please note in addition to the changes highlighted below Nitelinks will have revised times which are available by clicking on the route of your choice on the Nitelink page.
College Street will no longer be used as a terminus point for Nitelink. Revised City Centre Termini for Nitelink are as follows;
Westmoreland Street

Route Bus
Stop ID Departure Times
25n CD 00:00, 00:30, 01:00, 01:30, 02:00, 02:30, 03:00, 03:30, 04:00

33n CC 00:00, 02:00, 04:00

39n CE 00:00, 00:30, 01:00, 01:30, 02:00, 02:30, 03:00, 03:30, 04:00

41n CC 00:30, 01:00, 01:30p, 02:00, 02:30, 03:00, 03:30, 04:00

42n CC 00:00, 00:30, 01:00, 01:30, 02:00, 02:30, 03:00, 03:30, 04:00

66n CD 00:00, 00:30, 01:00, 01:30, 02:00, 02:30, 03:00, 03:30, 04:00

67n CF 00:30, 02:00, 03:30, 04:00

69n CF 00:30, 01:30, 02:30, 03:30

70n CE 00:00, 02:00, 04:00

88n CF 00:30, 02:00, 04:00
p To Portrane via Swords Manor, Lissenhall, Hearse Road, Lanestown Cottages and Donabate.
D'Olier Street

Route Bus Stop
ID Departure Times
7n CH 00:00, 00:30, 01:00, 01:30, 02:00, 02:30, 03:00, 03:30, 04:00

15n CJ 01:00, 02:30, 04:00 29n CK 00:30, 01:30, 02:30, 03:30

31n CK 00:00, 01:00, 02:00, 03:00, 04:00

46n CG 00:00, 00:30, 01:00, 01:30, 02:00, 02:30, 03:00, 03:30, 04:00

49n CJ 00:30, 02:00, 03:30

77n CH 00:30, 01:00, 02:00, 02:30, 03:30, 04:00

84n CG 00:00, 02:00, 04:00

Ticket Buses will not longer be on site. Customers can now purchase their tickets at the following ticket agents
Agent Address
Spar D’Olier Street
Londis Westmoreland Street
Colemans 9 Westmoreland Street
O’Briens Sandwich Bar Westmoreland Street
The following services will have a change to their routing;

25n From Westmoreland Street Towards Adamstowm
Revised Routing
Thomas Street, James’s Street, Inchicore, Sarsfield Road, Ballyfermot Road, Neilstown Road, Lucan Newlands Road, Castle Road, Griffeen Road, Esker Road, Newcastle Road (Adamstown)
Pick Up Point
Thomas Street (Francis Street), The Penny Hill Pub Lucan

42n From Westmoreland Street Towards Portmarnock
Revised Routing
Summerhill, Ballybough, Philipsburgh Avenue, Griffith Avenue, Malahide Road (Donnycarney), Artane, Coolock, Kinsealy, Feltrim Road, Seabury Estate, Malahide Village, Portmarnock (Sands Hotel), Wendell Avenue, Carrickhill Road, Strand Road, Portmarnock (The Bridge)
Pick Up Point
Malahide Tennis Club

46n From D’Olier Street Towards Sandyford
Revised Routing
Kildare Street, Leeson Street, Donnybrook, UCD Belfield, Stillorgan, Galloping Green, Foxrock Church, Cornelscourt Hill, Ballyogan, Kilgobbin Road, Sandyford Village
Pick Up Points
Donnybrook Church, Stillorgan Park Hotel

66n From Westmoreland Street Towards Leixlip (Louisa Bridge) via Glen Easton
Revised Routing
Parkgate Street, Chapelizod, Palmerstown Footbridge, Lucan Statoil Station, Lucan Village, Leixlip (Captain’s Hill), Leixlip Village, Glen Easton, Leixlip (Louisa Bridge)
Pick Up Points
Palmerstown Footbridge, Lucan (Statoil)

69n From Westmoreland Street Towards Saggart
Revised Routing
Thomas Street, James Street, Bluebell, Naas Road, Monastery Road, Woodford Walk, Watery Lane, Clondalkin Village, Fonthill Road South, Nangor Road, Peamount, Newcastle, Rathcoole, Saggart
Pick Up Points
Thomas Street, Clondalkin Village

88n From Westmoreland Street Towards Ashbourne
Revised Routing
Phibsboro Road, Botanic Road, Ballygall Road East, Glasnevin Avenue, Ballymun Road Civic Office, Poppintree, Finglas Village, Seamus Ennis Road, Finglas West, Finglas South, Finglas Village (Finglas Road, opposite Finglas Place), Ashbourne
Pick Up Points
Phibsboro Road (Shopping Centre), Seamus Ennis Road (opposite Finglas Credit Union), Finglas Village (Finglas Road, opposite Finglas Place)

The following route numbers will no longer operate;
27n – please see 42n for alternative route
40n – please see route 88n for alternative route
51n – please see route 25n and 69n for alternative route
54n - please see 15n, 49n or 77n for alternative route
44n - please see 46n for alternative route
48n - please see 15n or 46n for alternative route