Total Fitness has closed down *MOD note post 1* Please Read

jt_dublin

gym_buddy wrote: »

You miss my point. If it is known that as soon as you become recognised as a member and there are no checks on the gates what is to stop people from cancelling DD? It makes no business sense at all to have no gate controls.

Even arriving without a card, they had some gate controls. I arrived without my card once or twice and they didnt just wave me in. I had to give my name, they looked me up on the computer and then let me in when they saw that, 1. My membership was paid up to date and 2. That I matched the photo on their system.

judoga

The liquidator appointed is David Van Dessell, Kavanagh Fennell Ltd, Simmonscourt House, Simmonscourt Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4

The membership fees are classed as "unsecured creditors" in the directors estimated state of affairs, and are included with all other creditors. The amount available for unsecured creditors is NIL according to this document.

nullzero

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

The Balance Sheet had fixtures and fittings value at approx €1.6m IIRC. I'll see if I can get a copy later and post it up.

Nate

Hugely optimistic I'd say.
As has been said before the stuff is old, in bad condition and there isn't a market for it.
They may as well be valuing the stuff in Monopoly money.

If another party is interested in aquiring the business I'd say that the equipment (what wasn't removed, ie the less valuable stuff) would come as part of the bargain. As for the database issue I'd say that if the gyms reopened it is possible that a good number of the TF members that have settled for other gyms would return quite quickly as for those corporate accounts etc, the new operators would have to do what TF never did, employ good customer service and good pricing for a good service.

If you can think of any other interesting points from the meeting we'd all love to hear about them, thanks for posting.

PS. I noticed this story whilst searching for TF related news today... http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/ldpbusiness/business-local/2011/03/30/total-fitness-signs-sponsorship-deal-with-liverpool-ladies-fc-92534-28426702/

Nice to know the TF UK head's can afford to be spnsoring sports teams, even whilst they close some of their UK branches too.

nullzero

judoga wrote: »

The liquidator appointed is David Van Dessell, Kavanagh Fennell Ltd, Simmonscourt House, Simmonscourt Road, Ballsbridge, Dublin 4

The membership fees are classed as "unsecured creditors" in the directors estimated state of affairs, and are included with all other creditors. The amount available for unsecured creditors is NIL according to this document.

If true this is shocking and sickening for those who paid upfront. What a kick in the teeth.

judoga

CENTRE OPERATORS LIMITED

DIRECTORS' ESTIMATED STATEMENT OF AFFAIRS AS AT 30 MARCH 2011

Assets_____________________________________________________ Net_Book Estimated
_____________________________________________________________Value to_realise

Plant & Equipment ____________________________________________ €291,538___€131,639
Fixtures & Fittings ___________________________________________ €1,113,329________€O
Cash On Hand ________________________________________________ €103,793___€103,793
Inter-company Debtors (due from Total Fitness Holdings(lreland) Ltd) €7,136,938________€O
Other Debtors _________________________________________________€288,301____€7,000
Stocks_______________________________________________________ €78,394____€39,197

---

€9,030,603___€263,319

Estimated Funds Available for Preferential Creditors __________________________ €263,319
Preferential Creditors (Appendix A)_______________________________________€1,504,099
Deficiency as regards Preferential Creditors_________________________________€1,240,780

Estimated Funds Available for Floating Chargeholder________________________________ Nil
Floating Chargeholder (Note 2)___________________________________________€10,000,000

Funds Available for Unsecured Creditors___________________________________________ Nil
Estimated Value of Unsecured Creditors (Appendix B )________________________ €6,954,879

Overall Deficiency_____________________________________________________ €18,195,659

NOTES TO THE STATEMENT OF AFFAIRS

1 The above figures do not take into account the costs of the liquidation.

2 Centre Operators Ltd has provided guarantees and a charge to Barclays Bank and the Co-operative Bank for other companies within the group. A demand for £8,500,000 (€10,000,000) has recently been
issued to Total Fitness Group Ltd and Centre Operators Ltd by Barclays Bank. Barclays has also recently written to Centre Operators Ltd, giving the company notice that it has converted its floating charge over the company into a first fixed charge. This will be a matter for the liquidator to decide, however, it should be noted that the recent High Court judgement in Belgard Motors has thrown doubt on a bank's ability to crystalise a floating charge into a fixed charge. This judgment may be subject to appeal.

judoga

So the only good news from the creditors meeting was the man who stood up and reminded people that if you paid with a credit card, then you can go to the bank who issued the credit card and ask them for a refund as "the agreement was for 1 years membership and Centre Operators cannot now honour that agreement.

As a reminder, anybody who is with PermanentTSB (as I am), their ATM/Debit cards were recently replaced with VISA DEBIT cards. There is a process similar to the Credit card guarantee scheme called "VISA CHARGEBACK" which will refund your money.

I called the debit card section and the said yes the scheme can be applied in this case, and they will recover the money from the merchant bank who do the finance.. and send it to my account...

judoga

I finally managed to upload the PDF of the "Directors estimated statement of affairs as at 30 March 2011", its 17MB in size for those who want to see it.

http://www.mediafire.com/?w0hi6js2xd1hhpl

SanoVitae

There is another very well-known gym chain in Dublin which is really struggling.

No-one would suspect a thing because they are getting lots of members and their monthly fees are very high. So it looks like they are doing extremely well.

What people don't see is the huge loss of members every month, which when combined with the huge overheads, has put the gym in big trouble.

Direct debit is definitely the way to go as far as gyms are concerned IMO.

TeddyTedson

judoga wrote: »

So the only good news from the creditors meeting was the man who stood up and reminded people that if you paid with a credit card, then you can go to the bank who issued the credit card and ask them for a refund as "the agreement was for 1 years membership and Centre Operators cannot now honour that agreement.

As a reminder, anybody who is with PermanentTSB (as I am), their ATM/Debit cards were recently replaced with VISA DEBIT cards. There is a process similar to the Credit card guarantee scheme called "VISA CHARGEBACK" which will refund your money.

I called the debit card section and the said yes the scheme can be applied in this case, and they will recover the money from the merchant bank who do the finance.. and send it to my account...

That's great news about the PermanentTSB Visa Debit card, I pad around 400e of my membership with it.
With the possibility of someone taking the premises over I don't know whether to hold out or join a new gym....

ShaneU

So people who paid with laser are still screwed?

donutface

I paid for my membership back in September, I'm guessing I'd be able to claim half of it or less back or would that transaction be too old for a charge back?

buzz

Doesnt sound great..

I was hoping someone would take it over quickly, or an announcement made regarding an agreement with landlord etc

I recently went to view a number of local southside gyms, and against my will I joined WW in Leopardstown. I went up on Monday and couldnt believe the upper weights floor, I spotted and said hi to 20-25 ex TF members, it was jammers.

However since then it has been fine! The gym layout wouldnt be my prefarred choice, as there is too many different rooms.. Weights equiptment wouldnt be as good as TF, but the cardio area has some nice newer equiptment. Changing rooms are well kept and the gym is clean. Staff on the floor are helpful, however the membership team were all telling me different bsh1t about the numbers of new members and how busy the gym floor gets:rolleyes:

Wasnt keen on paying 75e per month, but as far as I saw it was the closest to TF in terms of location and facilities!

Still hoping that something will happen with TF, such a good gym gone to waste if nothing..... And I will be first in line to re join!

cojack101

Did anyone get a letter from TF UK?

I rang UK today (30/03/11) by chance because I have not heard anything back.

She told me that at 10am this morning the liquidators meeting took place in the Holiday in in Pearse street and she apologised that I had not recieved a letter.

Did any of you guys receive a letter?!?!?!?

Shield

Not looking good for any ex-members who paid in full:

UPMARKET Dublin gym operator Total Fitness collapsed with debts of €19.6m and almost no assets, people owed money by the chain learned last night.

It means there is no prospect of a cash refund for the 15,000 gym members or of any recovery for local suppliers.

Gym members are owed €1.6m in lost fees and 100 employees look set to lose their minimum notice payments as result of the closure of the chain.

Centre Operations Limited, the company that ran the upmarket gyms, voluntarily closed its doors on March 16, blaming soaring rents and falling membership.

It operated big, state-of-the-art gyms in Castleknock, Malahide Road and Sandyford.

Yesterday, at a packed meeting, hundreds of gym members and others owed money by the company were told that an €18m shortfall in the accounts meant they had little hope of recovering cash from the collapsed business.

The huge shortfall came because Total Fitness Ireland collapsed owing €10m to Barclays and the Cooperative Bank in the UK.

The massive debt was run up as a result of a guarantee the Irish company gave to its UK parent company that allows the two banks a right to the value of the Irish assets in the event of liquidation.

Even the two banks are braced for massive losses, however, because those Irish assets are expected to realise a little over quarter-of-a-million euro.

The biggest asset is €7m owed to the business through an inter-company loan, but the company reckons there is no prospect of that debt being paid.

Repaid

That leaves the quarter of a million to cover not only the €10m due to the banks, but €1.5m owed to preferred creditors including the Revenue Commissioners, who are first in line to be repaid.

Yesterday, creditors voted to appoint David van Dessel of Kanavagh Fennel as liquidator.

After the tax authorities, the biggest Irish hit is to Fingal county Council, which is owed €100,000, and Bord Gais, which is owed €46,000.

Solicitors Mason, Hayes and Curran are owed €44,000.

Mr van Dessel said he will explore the possibility of reopening the gyms in an effort to sell them as a going concern.

That may be far from easy, he warned, after doors were closed and staff made redundant two weeks ago.

However, he said Total Fitness was up to date with its rents and it may be possible to convince landlords to allow the chain to reopen.

Source

gym_buddy

nullzero wrote: »

Hugely optimistic I'd say.
As has been said before the stuff is old, in bad condition and there isn't a market for it.
They may as well be valuing the stuff in Monopoly money.

If another party is interested in aquiring the business I'd say that the equipment (what wasn't removed, ie the less valuable stuff) would come as part of the bargain. As for the database issue I'd say that if the gyms reopened it is possible that a good number of the TF members that have settled for other gyms would return quite quickly as for those corporate accounts etc, the new operators would have to do what TF never did, employ good customer service and good pricing for a good service.

If you can think of any other interesting points from the meeting we'd all love to hear about them, thanks for posting.

PS. I noticed this story whilst searching for TF related news today... http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/ldpbusiness/business-local/2011/03/30/total-fitness-signs-sponsorship-deal-with-liverpool-ladies-fc-92534-28426702/

Nice to know the TF UK head's can afford to be spnsoring sports teams, even whilst they close some of their UK branches too.

To be fair, that sounds like an agreement to provide training facilities rather than a financial commitment.

LOLA08

As a reminder, anybody who is with PermanentTSB (as I am), their ATM/Debit cards were recently replaced with VISA DEBIT cards. There is a process similar to the Credit card guarantee scheme called "VISA CHARGEBACK" which will refund your money.

I called the debit card section and the said yes the scheme can be applied in this case, and they will recover the money from the merchant bank who do the finance.. and send it to my account...[/QUOTE]

I paid by visa and cannot get my money back, they said they have to have it in wrighting from the liquidator that t/f is not reopening. I asked about a chargeback and they said they cant change it back until a liquidator is appointed, and if t.f is bought out i wont get a penny back.
is this my visa card company just not paying up

WalterMitty

Whats that 10million to banks for ? sounds fishy that 10million is owed to banks for a small chain of gyms with no freehold property.

donutface

180 day limit on chargeback - I missed it by about a week!

ethanb

Angry scenes at failed gym chain Total Fitness creditors' meeting
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0331/1224293433445.html

Not a surprise, I renewed m/ship with laser so didnt bother going as expected no money left for members. Interested to see if liquidator can it going again as a going concern to sell on. Somebody coming in would need to be cash rich, no more english directors up to their eyes in debt. Rent free period for new operator would be needed to allow for the fact no one is going to want to pay up front now.

Judging by this thread despite TF's ability to upste its members at times, there seems to be a loyal following for their premises out there.

conorlennon

donutface wrote: »

180 day limit on chargeback - I missed it by about a week!

Is that for Credit Cards?

Signed up for 11 months of Sandyford on August 4th last year with my credit card, so due a few months back.

ethanb

Director Graham Hollsworth in a statement read to the meeting blamed high rents for the closure and said the company had attempted unsuccessfully to renegotiate with the landlord.

Responded

Solicitor Deirdre Courtney representing the landlord said this was "blatantly untrue". The company, she added, had given the landlord just 24 hours to respond.

The landlord, she added, had responded saying he would be looking at the rents "but you guys had pulled the plug".

Mr Hollsworth admitted that the company had given the landlord a 24-hour deadline but said this had come after a long line of letters, phone calls and emails.

Asked from the floor by Brian Stewart, a member from Malahide Road, why the company continued to take fees from the public right up to the time of closure, a second director Andrew Fortune said they had not known until March 15 last that there was "no prospect of any negotiation of the rent".

Ms Courtney, who represents the landlord was also at the meeting in a personal capacity representing her daughter's school which went there for swimming lessons, pointed to the fact that in January Fingal Council paid €4.3m in compensation to Total Fitness 2010 for disruption caused by roadworks on the M50.

...Castleknock members did you see any of this money spent repairing carpark etc??

nullzero

gym_buddy wrote: »

To be fair, that sounds like an agreement to provide training facilities rather than a financial commitment.

I was making the point that whilst they are involved in closing gyms in that region it sends a strange message to members and former members who are at this point scratching their heads to try and understand what TF is up to.

nullzero

ethanb wrote: »

Angry scenes at failed gym chain Total Fitness creditors' meeting
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0331/1224293433445.html

Not a surprise, I renewed m/ship with laser so didnt bother going as expected no money left for members. Interested to see if liquidator can it going again as a going concern to sell on. Somebody coming in would need to be cash rich, no more english directors up to their eyes in debt. Rent free period for new operator would be needed to allow for the fact no one is going to want to pay up front now.

Judging by this thread despite TF's ability to upste its members at times, there seems to be a loyal following for their premises out there.

The premises was always fantastic and obviously the reason people were there. It was nearly more difficult for whoever was running the place to make it fail than to keep it running smoothly.

Some of what has come out from the meeting yesterday sheds a lot of new light on the topic. The operators are hardly coming out smelling of roses, they seem as unreasonable at the top of their organization as they were at the bottom. They gave the impression that the landlord was stringing them along when they actually gave the landlord 24 hours to respond to their request.

I hope the place reopens and is run by competant people because as I said already the premises are fantatsic and have buckets of potential.

heyheyhey1982

The place had 12000 paying members. I was never sure of this figure- but this came out in the meeting yesterday. 12000 members who are paying between 400 (OAP Rate) to 750 (63pm X 12mnths) so they had a massive income. Also every member would have to have been up to date with their fees as they wouldnt of been able to gain access. There would of been no late payments as it was DD. This was a business that shouldnt of failed. They had reduced their staff levels to a laughable level, they wherent putting much money into maintainance either. All they had to do was put out some advertising to get more mebers in. I remember the week i joined they where waving the joining fee- there was a que of 50 people to sign up. I never seen them advertise in the national media either.

Hanley

Who are Total Fitness (Holdings) Ireland? Why do they owe Centre Operators > 7m?

Why were Centre Operators guaranteeing group loans?

Was the balance sheet leverage to facilitate some sort of buy out?

Why have fixtures and fittings been written down to nil?

Anyone have answers?

ShaneU

Rang AIB, need to send a letter to their cashback department along with a copy of total fitness's website. Hopefully I'll get something back.

Is that 180 day limit for mastercard? Mine is 205 days.

mccarrd2

Im still hanging on in the faint hope TF in Sandyford will reopen or a new gym will open there. Either way im resigned to be burned for €450, will always use a credit card in future.

Ive been going to Kettlebell Classes in Ballinteer, All Over Fitness. There very good, Id recommend. Find him on facebook

chiefbrody1974

Lorenzo Full Bookcase wrote: »

Very hard to find parking.

Its packed.

Its dull, dark, dreary & depressing.

Personally I hated it.

I joined Northwood two weeks ago and its very cheap, 225 each for both of us but i admit that youre right, it's all those things!! shame TF folded.

TeddyTedson

I miss TF:mad::mad::(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(

VictoriaC

I'm so over TF closing down now. Looking to join elsewhere now. TF seems to be gone forever - my mourning is over with at this stage!

The Guvnor

It is hard to see who could reopend the place(s) as a gym and have anymore success than the predecessors.

I think all gyms are struggling and memberships are going down.

I rejoined my place at €236 down from the normal €360 and a few weeks later it is now €199!

If prices are going down it really is a lost cause.

I used to be a member out there (sf) and it was a great place. Nothing else really like it in the area. IMO nothing worse than an overly packed gym.

TeddyTedson

If it ever reopens ill join back.

copacetic

Ad in the papers today looking for expressions of interest in taking over the 'business, assets and goodwill' of all 3 gyms. Deadline April 13.

TeddyTedson

copacetic wrote: »

Ad in the papers today looking for expressions of interest in taking over the 'business, assets and goodwill' of all 3 gyms. Deadline April 13.

Someone buy them please.

Beau

Does the Beacon site have a pool? Ben dunne opening there in September.

annieoburns

No pool at Beacon, Sandyford.

heyheyhey1982

annieoburns wrote: »

No pool at Beacon, Sandyford.

Ben Dunne hates pools and heating costs.

LOLA08

I see on his website that he is opening at the beacon in sept. does he do any classes.. spinning etc

mwrf

copacetic wrote: »

Ad in the papers today looking for expressions of interest in taking over the 'business, assets and goodwill' of all 3 gyms. Deadline April 13.

Article in the independent today stating there has been between 5 and 10 expressions of interest, so hopefully they reopen soon.

SanoVitae

How about Aldi buy it, re-open the gym and build a seperate store beside it?

They could specialise in selling cheap yet nutritious food for health enthusiasts and bodybuilders.

Win-Win for everyone!

Nate--IRL--

Looks like Clarehall is to be redeveloped ---> http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2011/0414/1224294663791.html

Mardown said the Clarehall spaces had been fenced off for a number of years and are “superfluous to the needs of the centre”. Mardown has since lodged a new planning application, seeking to redevelop the existing gym. It plans to open two new retail units on the ground floor, develop a new medical centre, and open a restaurant and gym on the first floor of the building.

Nate

nullzero

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Looks like Clarehall is to be redeveloped ---> http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2011/0414/1224294663791.html



Nate

That's a sickener for any of the ex TF members who were hoping that site would reopen.

I wonder if Gubay will insist that Lidl buy all three sites in order to off load them?

thomasj

This might be of interest

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71887433#

cojack101

[HTML][/HTML]

thomasj wrote: »

This might be of interest

http://m.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71887433#

Nice spot Thomasj, lets hope your right, I only got to use 2% (8 days) of my 780 Euro (365 day) membership

radia

cojack101 wrote: »

Nice spot Thomasj, lets hope your right, I only got to use 2% (8 days) of my 780 Euro (365 day) membership

For what it's worth, yesterday's Irish Times points out that if you paid by Visa - including Visa debit card - you can do a chargeback for the remaining 98%.

cojack101

radia wrote: »

For what it's worth, yesterday's Irish Times points out that if you paid by Visa - including Visa debit card - you can do a chargeback for the remaining 98%.

Paid with Lazer :mad:

mwrf

Any rumours on any of them reopening yet?

nullzero

mwrf wrote: »

Any rumours on any of them reopening yet?

Nothing yet.
It could be a long wait for those rumours.
Any new operator would have to take a big rent bill and then be more competitive than TF was.
Sadly we probably won't see them re open, at least not within the forseeable future.

dumbbell

Greatly miss the place =-( sure if thay turn it into shops ... the shops in the clare hall building are all empty like .. UGH!!!!

chiefbrody1974

FFS, the gym is closed, get over it and move on. Id hate to see what you'd all be like if you had a real problem in your lives. just go to a new one, talk about sad! coming on every day for an update n the gym status, what are ye like. I was in castlknock for 13 years and now im in a different gym, change of scene, the only good staff in castleknock were from eastern europe, realy nice. the irish staff were ignorant and couldnt give a toss.