Changes in HSE structure and doctor's pay?

tallaght01

irishh_bob wrote: »

GP,s and consultants in ireland are the second wealthiest in the world after the usa according to recent reports , enough with this false modesty crap about doctors incomes in this country , by international standards , medics in ireland are extremley wealthy

both GP,s and consultants operate in closed shops and are among the most sheltered ( if not thee most sheltered ) sectors of the economy

Dr Galen

Irishh_bob

Either you make point without resorting to taking pot shots or you simply don't post here. I've seen enough of your posting style across several fora to know what you are about. It won't be tolerated here. End of.

You are more than welcome here if you want to discuss in a rational and constructive manner. You make the choice, otherwise it will be made for you.

Cheers

DrG

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

A) The cut in salaries is relevant to the substantial portion of hospital docs who don't do private work. I wouldn't do private work, and I think the vast majority (if not all) the regular doctor posters on here are public-only. A lot of doctors are not comfortable with treating patients based on their ability to pay. Robfowl, as a GP, will have private patients, but I remember him posting here ages ago about the high number of "bad debts", most of whom are not pursued for their debts (sorry if it wasn't robfowl, but it was a GP on here). So, for someone like me, who will never do private work, medicine is certainly less "financially advantageous".

I think you're seeing an implication in the OP because you want to. I cannot see how anyone could interpret the OP as saying that being a consultant is "not a job worth doing" because of the money.

My argument would be that it is still financially advantageous to do medicine in the current day and age. 'Less' financially advantageous atm - I suppose.

But over the long term it does appear to be one of the very best careers for financial security.

Some points:

1) Most westernised countries will have ageing populations in the future and demand for healthcare will increase. Doctors seemed to be spared headcount reductions that we see in a lot of other industries -I thought Obamas speech about section in a factory needed 2 people rather 20 nowadays was telling.

2) Its advantageous because its a counter cyclical profession, not so much boom and bust.

3) Its usually easier for medics to find work abroad when conditions are tough at home.

4) You can pretty sure wherever you are medics salaries will be much higher than the average workers wherever you are

I know people who are who are changing careers at the moment due to poor pay and or conditions who got enough points to do med in their LC. A part of the reason they were put off the career is I feel that some medics may overemphasize the stresses of their career RELATIVE to other sectors, and downplay the advantages of the career. I believe some of these people were put off doing med for some of these reasons.

I realise the conditions of NCHD sound absolutely s**t, and do not think I would begrudge a medic whatever they earn or do not earn.

But I do think it is disingenuous to downplay that medicine appears to be one the most financially stable careers available. It can lead students to make a career choice that might not be in their long term best interest.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

Robfowl, as a GP, will have private patients, but I remember him posting here ages ago about the high number of "bad debts", most of whom are not pursued for their debts (sorry if it wasn't robfowl, but it was a GP on here)

This is simply a financial control issue and it is part of running any small business. Maybe you are implying that it is more difficult in medicine because these people are quite sick and genuinely cannot afford to pay, but otherwise it is a problem plenty of other businesses face.

irishh_bob

ttmd wrote: »

This is simply a financial control issue and it is part of running any small business. Maybe you are implying that it is more difficult in medicine because these people are quite sick and genuinely cannot afford to pay, but otherwise it is a problem plenty of other businesses face.

plus thier are not too many business,s which operate in a completley sheltered sector like GP,s do , never heard of thier being a cap on the number of hardware stores or car dealers which can open for business , have also never hear of hardware store owners agreeing with their counterparts in the next town over , not to steal each others customers

a cut above the rest as they say

oops , i forgot , the lower orders are not allowed speak their mind when it comes to thier medical betters , pulls down pants in advance

Dr Galen

Irishh_bob

Banned for six months from both Health Science Forums, I think we all know why.

I'm seriously relaxed when it comes to modding any forum around this site, but arguing back in thread is a serious no-no.

When your ban is up, if you wish to post here I suggest that you change your posting style to fit the ethos of the forum. If not, I cannot see this ending well.

Cheers

DrG

dissed doc

irishh_bob wrote: »

GP,s and consultants in ireland are the second wealthiest in the world after the usa according to recent reports , enough with this false modesty crap about doctors incomes in this country , by international standards , medics in ireland are extremley wealthy

both GP,s and consultants operate in closed shops and are among the most sheltered ( if not thee most sheltered ) sectors of the economy

Eh no, it's pretty much a wide open shop actually and any specialist in the EU can work here tomorrow if they pay the medical council (that's run by a majority of non-doctors FYI) around €600.

As you can see, there are literally thousands queuing up to leave their ****ty work conditions and low pay for the bright shining lights of the HSE.

tallaght01

ttmd wrote: »

My argument would be that it is still financially advantageous to do medicine in the current day and age. 'Less' financially advantageous atm - I suppose.

But over the long term it does appear to be one of the very best careers for financial security.

Some points:

1) Most westernised countries will have ageing populations in the future and demand for healthcare will increase. Doctors seemed to be spared headcount reductions that we see in a lot of other industries -I thought Obamas speech about section in a factory needed 2 people rather 20 nowadays was telling.

2) Its advantageous because its a counter cyclical profession, not so much boom and bust.

3) Its usually easier for medics to find work abroad when conditions are tough at home.

4) You can pretty sure wherever you are medics salaries will be much higher than the average workers wherever you are

I know people who are who are changing careers at the moment due to poor pay and or conditions who got enough points to do med in their LC. A part of the reason they were put off the career is I feel that some medics may overemphasize the stresses of their career RELATIVE to other sectors, and downplay the advantages of the career. I believe some of these people were put off doing med for some of these reasons.

I realise the conditions of NCHD sound absolutely s**t, and do not think I would begrudge a medic whatever they earn or do not earn.

But I do think it is disingenuous to downplay that medicine appears to be one the most financially stable careers available. It can lead students to make a career choice that might not be in their long term best interest.

Your post is essentially correct, albeit a little naive. Though, they're not the points that were being argued. If people want a career that has reasonable job security, while having to get a new job every 6 months, and reasonable pay, then go for it.

No idea why people who get the points for medicine, but don't do the course, and don't work 24 hour shifts for years should get those same conditions, though.

I don't think medics overstate the stresses of their career. I've done LOT of jobs in my time, and I've only done one single 24 hour shift outside medicine, and was very well compensated for it, on top of 4 days off afterwards as a thank you.
Anyway, these are not the issue we're arguing.

tallaght01

ttmd wrote: »

This is simply a financial control issue and it is part of running any small business. Maybe you are implying that it is more difficult in medicine because these people are quite sick and genuinely cannot afford to pay, but otherwise it is a problem plenty of other businesses face.

The point was that plenty of GPs don't go after patients who can't pay. I have tried to screw a lot of companies in my time and they always come looking for their money

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

Your post is essentially correct, albeit a little naive. Though, they're not the points that were being argued. If people want a career that has reasonable job security, while having to get a new job every 6 months, and reasonable pay, then go for it.

I do think its relevant. From a purely financial perspective, its a good thing to do relative to a lot of other things, and therefore, I think, both in absolute and relative terms it is advantageous to do medicine, and my points are related to that.

PS - Less advantageous because of pay cuts? Its could more advantageous if everyone else gets their pay cut by more.

[/QUOTE] No idea why people who get the points for medicine, but don't do the course, and don't work 24 hour shifts for years should get those same conditions, though.[/QUOTE]

Well some people tell them they can get those conditions without the stress in other professions. It does them a disservice, and some of them might chosen to work the long hours if stability is what they value.

[/QUOTE]I don't think medics overstate the stresses of their career. I've done LOT of jobs in my time, and I've only done one single 24 hour shift outside medicine, and was very well compensated for it, on top of 4 days off afterwards as a thank you.
Anyway, these are not the issue we're arguing.[/QUOTE]

The OP did mention mentions the demands of the career in his post so I do think is relevant to talk about the relative levels of stress.

And I do not mean to downplay the professions evident demands, its rather what I genuinely see as a failure to empathise with stresses beyond their own profession.

I am going off on bit of a tangent here, but I arranged dinner to celebrate a personal achievement a few years ago. As my sister, mother, aunt and godfather were all medics, I found the conversation dominated by them complaining about work. I notice this happens a lot with doctors. And yes I know if got other people with the same job got around the same table, they would talk about work, but imo medics are the worst. I remember talking to a consultant friend of my mothers telling me that she does her best to spare her husband this sort of social situation.

I love them all, but I honestly think this sort of dynamic (ie. medics can be incredibly incestuous in who they hang around with) feeds a lack of empathy where they cannot imagine anyone having as stressful a time as them.

I understand long hours, poor conditions and a lack of training places are not to be sniffed at. But conversely being underemployed with your career descending into limbo is stressful, having not enough money is stressful, being stuck in a sinking country because you cant find a decent job to move abroad for is stressful - I could go on. Its appropriate that any prospective student see the advantages of medicine relative to other careers so they can make a more informed choice.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

The point was that plenty of GPs don't go after patients who can't pay. I have tried to screw a lot of companies in my time and they always come looking for their money

I asked my mother (GP) about this this evening and she said they have implemented better controls and she does not consider it a major issue, where it was in the past.

Are you at least sure that the GPs are taking the appropriate action to deal with these issues? If not I can not have more sympathy with them than with any other type of business.

tallaght01

Again, I don't think you're wrong in a lot of what you're saying, but I think you have a very skewed view of how medics think, and very little insight into working conditions. I'm still not sure what point exactly you're making, and how they differ from the points I'm making. Except I get the feeling (and it's just a feeling) that you value financial reward more than I guess most medics do.

With respect to people in the business world, a lot of my friends in this field tell me often how I'm very lucky and I earn more than most and they don't have job security etc etc. And that's fine.

However, by and large they've haven't done 3 degrees like me, they don't work a patch on the hours I've worked, and they haven't had the responsibility for human life that I've had. My sister is a junior lawyer and doesn't work anything close to the hours I do, and my mate is an accountant and finishes at 5pm each day. I don't think other professions are un-stressful. But I think very few match the working conditions and responsibility of medicine.

People in business make a lot of money when times are good, and don't do so well when they're not. Whereas our salary is reasonably constant. I guess they're the choices you make. The wealthiest people I know are in property and art, and they're self employed. I don't know any rich doctors, and don't know any poor ones either.

I think the problem is lots of kids going into medicine talk about consultant salaries, when maybe 10% will become a consultant. or they talk about GP practice owners' salaries, when I'd imagine most won't get to that stage. I don't think anyone here would ever say we're poor. But most of us aren't rich. I've been a chicken and legged it to Australia, where I live month to month, with no savings.

I also rarely socialise with medics, and don't talk about medicine. In fact, most medics will tell you that one of their biggest social problems is non-medics constantly want to talk to them about their job.

I don't want to get into a massive back and forth about this, because I think you have very specific thoughts on this issue, and with respect, I think they're (slightly) naive and don't reflect reality on a large scale.

I think the last thing I'd say is that most NCHDs wouldn't agree that the job is worth it for the money alone, whereas you're talking about finances in isolation. Salary scales are easy to find, but real information about the job is hard to find. This forum is one of the few places where Irish med students and potential students can get real info on what the job is about. If that involves telling people that medicine is "less financially advantageous" than it used to be, then so be it.

tallaght01

ttmd wrote: »

I asked my mother (GP) about this this evening and she said they have implemented better controls and she does not consider it a major issue, where it was in the past.

Are you at least sure that the GPs are taking the appropriate action to deal with these issues? If not I can not have more sympathy with them than with any other type of business.

What controls are they? Not saying you're lying or anything, I'd just be interested, as bad debts have traditionally been a big issue for people I know in private practice,and would be interested in how they get round it.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

Again, I don't think you're wrong in a lot of what you're saying, but I think you have a very skewed view of how medics think, and very little insight into working conditions. I'm still not sure what point exactly you're making, and how they differ from the points I'm making. Except I get the feeling (and it's just a feeling) that you value financial reward more than I guess most medics do.

With respect to people in the business world, a lot of my friends in this field tell me often how I'm very lucky and I earn more than most and they don't have job security etc etc. And that's fine.

However, by and large they've haven't done 3 degrees like me, they don't work a patch on the hours I've worked, and they haven't had the responsibility for human life that I've had. My sister is a junior lawyer and doesn't work anything close to the hours I do, and my mate is an accountant and finishes at 5pm each day. I don't think other professions are un-stressful. But I think very few match the working conditions and responsibility of medicine.

People in business make a lot of money when times are good, and don't do so well when they're not. Whereas our salary is reasonably constant. I guess they're the choices you make. The wealthiest people I know are in property and art, and they're self employed. I don't know any rich doctors, and don't know any poor ones either.

I think the problem is lots of kids going into medicine talk about consultant salaries, when maybe 10% will become a consultant. or they talk about GP practice owners' salaries, when I'd imagine most won't get to that stage. I don't think anyone here would ever say we're poor. But most of us aren't rich. I've been a chicken and legged it to Australia, where I live month to month, with no savings.

I also rarely socialise with medics, and don't talk about medicine. In fact, most medics will tell you that one of their biggest social problems is non-medics constantly want to talk to them about their job.

I don't want to get into a massive back and forth about this, because I think you have very specific thoughts on this issue, and with respect, I think they're (slightly) naive and don't reflect reality on a large scale.

I think the last thing I'd say is that most NCHDs wouldn't agree that the job is worth it for the money alone, whereas you're talking about finances in isolation. Salary scales are easy to find, but real information about the job is hard to find. This forum is one of the few places where Irish med students and potential students can get real info on what the job is about. If that involves telling people that medicine is "less financially advantageous" than it used to be, then so be it.

Sorry I will try to keep my responses shorter.

Look I will agree I cannot hope to have enough perspective on the junior levels of the profession. But I still think you most doctors will have lower level of financial worry, which is a big perk of the profession.

I do not think its good to talk about finances in isolation. But on the contrary I think medics can poo poo the issue a bit too much.

ttmd

tallaght01 wrote: »

What controls are they? Not saying you're lying or anything, I'd just be interested, as bad debts have traditionally been a big issue for people I know in private practice,and would be interested in how they get round it.

This is going to sound crude but so be it, and apologies as my initial counterpoint could have been misleading and badly phrased.

They employed a member of staff who previously basically told them them to be more assertive on the issue. Additionally the layout of their new premises directs them to separate exit to the surgery (a checkout so to speak), which is gentle prompt not to leave without paying. She said that her old employer would not survive if they were such pushovers.(she worked in the hospitality sector previously)

I have small suspicion that to some docs, referring to a practice as a 'business' is vulgar.

imported_guy

ttmd wrote: »

Sorry I will try to keep my responses shorter.

Look I will agree I cannot hope to have enough perspective on the junior levels of the profession. But I still think you most doctors will have lower level of financial worry, which is a big perk of the profession.

I do not think its good to talk about finances in isolation. But on the contrary I think medics can poo poo the issue a bit too much.

okay lets look at it this way, go to any medical school, tcd/rcsi in particular where there are alot of arabs/pakistani/indian kids, you'll see them driving beemers/mercs (the students) alot of the people who do medicine are from "better off" socieo economic backgrounds already (lets be clear here, im not saying EVERYONE, but a decent majority), most people who do medicine go into it from private schools (again im not saying everyone), who repeat the LC a few times.... alot of them if they wanted wouldnt have to even do medicine, or even any sort of work, they could just sponge off their inheritence/parents' money, so for alot of people doing medicine, money isnt a factor at all

rbrbrb

ha, 'a lot of them could sponge off their inheritance/parents for the rest of their lives'. I have never heard such a load a crap. I'd say that is a tiny tiny tiny minority. Maybe one in every 400 or even less. Don't talk rubbish please.

ttmd

imported_guy wrote: »

okay lets look at it this way, go to any medical school, tcd/rcsi in particular where there are alot of arabs/pakistani/indian kids, you'll see them driving beemers/mercs (the students) alot of the people who do medicine are from "better off" socieo economic backgrounds already (lets be clear here, im not saying EVERYONE, but a decent majority), most people who do medicine go into it from private schools (again im not saying everyone), who repeat the LC a few times.... alot of them if they wanted wouldnt have to even do medicine, or even any sort of work, they could just sponge off their inheritence/parents' money, so for alot of people doing medicine, money isnt a factor at all

Yup and living off their parents is great for most peoples self confidence.;) I am sure their parents would also be delighted with this arrangement.

imported_guy

rbrbrb wrote: »

ha, 'a lot of them could sponge off their inheritance/parents for the rest of their lives'. I have never heard such a load a crap. I'd say that is a tiny tiny tiny minority. Maybe one in every 400 or even less. Don't talk rubbish please.

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?p=112&n=202&a=748#Fees

Fees
Fees for 2011 are 47,000 Euro per annum.

cool story bro, if you can afford 50 grand a year for tuition, you can afford to sponge off your rents, 50,000 a year is more than alot of NCHDs earn.

besides im just making a point that if you have that much cash flow already, you're not gonna do medicine for money, a point that ttmd doesnt get, money isnt the be all and end all in life

im bowing out of here on a light note

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqJDuZIcQ34

ttmd

imported_guy wrote: »

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?p=112&n=202&a=748#Fees



cool story bro, if you can afford 50 grand a year for tuition, you can afford to sponge off your rents, 50,000 a year is more than alot of NCHDs earn.

besides im just making a point that if you have that much cash flow already, you're not gonna do medicine for money, a point that ttmd doesnt get, money isnt the be all and end all in life

im bowing out of here on a light note

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqJDuZIcQ34

You seem to have an obsession with exorbitant wealth which clouds your judgement of reality.

Biologic

imported_guy wrote: »

http://www.rcsi.ie/index.jsp?p=112&n=202&a=748#Fees



cool story bro, if you can afford 50 grand a year for tuition, you can afford to sponge off your rents, 50,000 a year is more than alot of NCHDs earn.

besides im just making a point that if you have that much cash flow already, you're not gonna do medicine for money, a point that ttmd doesnt get, money isnt the be all and end all in life

You've really outdone yourself here. I'm in RCSI and nobody I know fits into that category. The fees you quoted are for non-EU and even for the rare few (in global terms) who travel here to study, many in my class are on loans to be paid back. I'm sure somewhere in the country there's someone being bankrolled by their parents to study basket weaving, it doesn't mean all basket weavers are minted.
I don't know what profession you're in, but I hope it's not medicine. Anyone who comes so such absolute conclusions and generalisations as quickly as you is bound to do damage.

opinion guy

imported_guy wrote: »

50,000 a year is more than alot of NCHDs earn.

No. It isn't.

Funny video though.

tallaght01

Poorer students are more debt-averse, so the new medical courses are pushing selection towards a more middle class cohort. But I don't think we can argue that the medical student cohort is being selected for the uber wealthy.

rbrbrb

Agree with exactly what biologic said. You haven't a clue imported guy. You jump to ridiculous conclusions based on the fact that fees are expensive for non-EU students. I'm doing graduate entry medicine and I have heard of nobody in my year who is being completely bank rolled by their parents.Everybody will have a sizeable loan to pay off when they graduate. Fair enough some of them get some help off their parents, myself included (and I've no problem with admitting that because naturally parents will want to give their children a helping hand) but that's in order to help us to begin a career that we've decided we want to do. It's not so we can just become doctors and keep sponging off them.

whadabouchasir

imported_guy wrote: »

cool story bro, if you can afford 50 grand a year for tuition, you can afford to sponge off your rents, 50,000 a year is more than alot of NCHDs earn.

But a lot of the time the state will pay their fees (I mean the country that they are from as opposed to Ireland. I know that this is the case with the Malaysian students in my class anyway. As for your point about the majority of medical students going to private schools and repeating the leaving many times,well that's just ignorance in the extreme.The vast majority will have done the leaving only once and i can count on one hand the amount i know that went to private schools. as for people doing Med just for the sake of it,would you work your ass of for 5/6 years doing a tough course just for the sake of it? maybe get to know a few med students before you make anymore rash generalisations.

drkpower

TTmd does make a good point vis-a-vis doctors being very tunnel-visioned when it comes to the widespread belief that they are the most (or even the only) shat upon demographic of society, and all but ignore the suggestion that there are other professionals whose lot is not a whole amount better.

As someone who was that shat-upon NCHD, and has since moved onto pastures newer (but not necessarily greener) in the legal field, my perspective may be helpful (or not:D).

First, there are many many junior (and senior) lawyers who work extraordinarily long hours. While the frequency of 'over-nighters' is not even close to that of a typical NCHD, they do happen quite often (for corporate/banking lawyers particularly), and there is no question of sleep during them. Outside of the over-nighters, the average working day of your typical lawyer, in a mid-big firm, is significantly longer than a typical NCHD, with late evenings being the norm. Holidays tend to be less generous.

I often sit around the lunch table with a group of fellow lawyers and the conversation routinely turns to the difficulties of the job - the sense of deja-vu never fails to put a smile on my face:D - the conversation tends to go something like this....:
- 'my brother is a [insert profession here]; it is so easy compared to us; he is home at 5pm; he has a life etc... etc.....'
or even
- 'I have a friend who is a GP; it is so easy compared to us; he is home at 5pm; he has a life etc... etc.....'

Message: It is not only medics who perceive that their lot is horrendous; and it is not only medics whose lot is horrendous.

On the responsibility point, there is no doubt that medics shoulder an incredible amount of it. But having seen both sides, I can tell you that the pressure/responsibility of screwing up a €100million deal, or losing a major case, has much the the same impact as the pressure of saving, or failing to save a life. I never would have thought that would be the case, but it is (at least for me).

Message: The responsibility - in terms of the effect it has on you - shouldered by those in (some) other professions is comparable to NCHDs

Mind you, I dont think many lawyer's experiences can match that routine experience of the NCHD, 48 hours into a 72 hour shift, who finally makes it to bed only for the bleep to go off when their head touches the pillow - that truly is awful and a day scarcely goes by when i dont smile at the thought of never having to hear that cursed noise ever again.

tallaght01 wrote: »

With respect to people in the business world, a lot of my friends in this field tell me often how I'm very lucky and I earn more than most and they don't have job security etc etc. And that's fine.

However, by and large they've haven't done 3 degrees like me, they don't work a patch on the hours I've worked, and they haven't had the responsibility for human life that I've had. My sister is a junior lawyer and doesn't work anything close to the hours I do, and my mate is an accountant and finishes at 5pm each day. I don't think other professions are un-stressful. But I think very few match the working conditions and responsibility of medicine.

tallaght01

drkpower wrote: »

TTmd does make a good point vis-a-vis doctors being very tunnel-visioned when it comes to the widespread belief that they are the most (or even the only) shat upon demographic of society, and all but ignore the suggestion that there are other professionals whose lot is not a whole amount better.

As someone who was that shat-upon NCHD, and has since moved onto pastures newer (but not necessarily greener) in the legal field, my perspective may be helpful (or not:D).

First, there are many many junior (and senior) lawyers who work extraordinarily long hours. While the frequency of 'over-nighters' is not even close to that of a typical NCHD, they do happen quite often (for corporate/banking lawyers particularly), and there is no question of sleep during them. Outside of the over-nighters, the average working day of your typical lawyer, in a mid-big firm, is significantly longer than a typical NCHD, with late evenings being the norm. Holidays tend to be less generous.

I often sit around the lunch table with a group of fellow lawyers and the conversation routinely turns to the difficulties of the job - the sense of deja-vu never fails to put a smile on my face:D - the conversation tends to go something like this....:
- 'my brother is a [insert profession here]; it is so easy compared to us; he is home at 5pm; he has a life etc... etc.....'
or even
- 'I have a friend who is a GP; it is so easy compared to us; he is home at 5pm; he has a life etc... etc.....'

Message: It is not only medics who perceive that their lot is horrendous; and it is not only medics whose lot is horrendous.

On the responsibility point, there is no doubt that medics shoulder an incredible amount of it. But having seen both sides, I can tell you that the pressure/responsibility of screwing up a €100million deal, or losing a major case, has much the the same impact as the pressure of saving, or failing to save a life. I never would have thought that would be the case, but it is (at least for me).

Message: The responsibility - in terms of the effect it has on you - shouldered by those in (some) other professions is comparable to NCHDs

I guess the reality is that you have choices in other professions that NCHDs don't. You can avoid the world of corporate law/high finance. As a medical graduate, you can't avoid being humped as an NCHD for an absolute minimum of about 4 years of your 20s, and up to 15 years if you want to be a consultant.

I would also argue that the people who have responsibility for 100 million euro deals would be very senior in the world of law...post FE exams, post apprenticeship, with significant experience on top of that. Whereas I would have been covering a neonatal unit and an acute paeds admission unit in a busy hospital as an SHO 2 and a half years out of med school. My sis is about 2 and a bit years post-LLM, post (most) FE1s and wouldn't have anything like that degree of responsibility in her fledgling law career with a massive firm. She works hard, and does a lot of reading at home, but comparing NCHD responsibility with that of senior lawyers isnt really comparing like with like.

Having said that, I'm not complaining about my pay or responsibility. I'm happy enough with both.

ttmd

Tallaght01

Unless I am wrong I have heard conditions are a lot better in Oz? If they are, does that not at least provide a good alternative for some of the NCHDs here?

drkpower

tallaght01 wrote: »

I guess the reality is that you have choices in other professions that NCHDs don't. You can avoid the world of corporate law/high finance. As a medical graduate, you can't avoid being humped as an NCHD for an absolute minimum of about 4 years of your 20s, and up to 15 years if you want to be a consultant.

I would also argue that the people who have responsibility for 100 million euro deals would be very senior in the world of law...post FE exams, post apprenticeship, with significant experience on top of that. Whereas I would have been covering a neonatal unit and an acute paeds admission unit in a busy hospital as an SHO 2 and a half years out of med school. My sis is about 2 and a bit years post-LLM, post (most) FE1s and wouldn't have anything like that degree of responsibility in her fledgling law career with a massive firm. She works hard, and does a lot of reading at home, but comparing NCHD responsibility with that of senior lawyers isnt really comparing like with like.

Having said that, I'm not complaining about my pay or responsibility. I'm happy enough with both.

Just so we can compare like with like, a trainee solicitor (post-LLM, post (most) FE1s) is really more comparable with a medical student in their clinical years rather than an NCHD. An intern/SHO is comparable to a solicitor with 1-3 years PQE.

Having said that, on your first point, on avoiding long hours if you want, there is merit to that point. But lets be honest about it, an NCHD could cherry pick a bunch of crappy dermatology jobs around the country and end up on easy street - but they will be a **** doctor! If you want to be a good lawyer, many/most would suggest that you should do at least some of your training/early years in a mediium-big firm, where it is difficult enough to end up in a cushy number.

On the point re: responsibility, it isnt so much about the value of a deal (€100m vs 10m). In my area (defending clinical negligence claims), depending on the situation, I could be as stressed about winning a case worth €100K as I am about a case worth €5 million (ie. a big CP case). And the level of stress would be close to the level of stress I experienced as a junior doc/locum GP when I was a lot younger. So, while from the outside, the stress on an NCHD seems to be far more, because they are dealing with 'life & death', the reality is a little different.

opinion guy

drkpower wrote: »

While the frequency of 'over-nighters' is not even close to that of a typical NCHD, they do happen quite often (for corporate/banking lawyers particularly), and there is no question of sleep during them. Outside of the over-nighters, the average working day of your typical lawyer, in a mid-big firm, is significantly longer than a typical NCHD, with late evenings being the norm. Holidays tend to be less generous.

This is something I don't understand. As a doc you're going to be runnign around all the time from place to place, drama happening, adrenalin going etc etc. **** that will to some extent, keep you awake - to a point I add. I can never understand how someone in a sitting down profession can do an allnighter. How does one sitting at a desk for 24 hours not fall asleep. OR how would one do accountancy math at 4am having not slept. Without physical stimulus I don't get it. (and even then I don't get it)

when i dont smile at the thought of never having to hear that cursed noise ever again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfrjirR6-FQ

MUWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHA