Why exactly do people want a united Ireland?

dlofnep

effluent wrote: »

People in the north and south have their own democracy now, so what is the issue? How exactly would it change our or their lives if there was a united Ireland?

No, they do not have democracy. Nationalists have 8 seats, in a 646 house which represents unionist interests, first and foremost. They cannot influence matters pertaining to taxation, foreign policy or defense. They were forced into a situation against the will of the majority, and now have to compromise at every single corner on the smallest of issues. That is not democracy. The north's economy is largely dependent on the public sector, largely due to high corporation tax rates.

It's also about national identity. The nationalist population does not want to live under British rule. They feel that their cultural and national aspirations are not being protected. It's a quite simple concept.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Not really. Hear it a lot on here some wish the republic would join the UK again, got many orange order men in the republic too who don't believe in the republic.

The amount of people who would want to rejoin the UK is minimal. Don't kid yourself. The amount of people who aspire to see an end to partition is far higher.

kippy

dlofnep wrote: »

No, they do not have democracy. Nationalists have 8 seats, in a 646 house which represents unionist interests, first and foremost. They cannot influence matters pertaining to taxation, foreign policy or defense. They were forced into a situation against the will of the majority, and now have to compromise at every single corner on the smallest of issues. That is not democracy. The north's economy is largely dependent on the public sector, largely due to high corporation tax rates.

It's also about national identity. The nationalist population does not want to live under British rule. They feel that their cultural and national aspirations are not being protected. It's a quite simple concept.

So they have absolutely no say in the institution of devolved government that already exists in the North and the elections held up there to form that institution are a total waste of time and money?

dlofnep

kippy wrote: »

So they have absolutely no say in the institution of devolved government that already exists in the North and the elections held up there to form that institution are a total waste of time and money?

I have already highlighted the issues that they have no say in - taxation, foreign relations and defense. They are also veto'd at every given opportunity by the DUP with matters relating to culture, such as the proposed Irish language act which was promised by the British & Irish Governments.

So no - it's not your average working example of democracy.

kippy

dlofnep wrote: »

I have already highlighted the issues that they have no say in - taxation, foreign relations and defense. They are also veto'd at every given opportunity by the DUP with matters relating to culture, such as the proposed Irish language act which was promised by the British & Irish Governments.

So no - it's not your average working example of democracy.

So the whole thing is pointless?

southsiderosie

dlofnep wrote: »

The north's economy is largely dependent on the public sector, largely due to high corporation tax rates.

And I've got a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.

Heavy industry is never coming back and years of conflict have not exactly make NI a shining beacon for investment. And it doesn't help that small business owners who want to set up shop in some areas of Belfast have to pay protection money to local mindless thugs paramilitary groups who seemingly have nothing better to do than crap on every attempt to make the city a semi-normal place to live.

The cost of living is relatively cheap, there is a smart, creative population, and there are several major universities that could anchor major research and investment centers. Belfast should be the UK equivalent of Portland: a place where young people want to go to set up their own music, food or creative arts collectives. But it can't make the leap as long as there are insane levels of residential segregation and no uniform CIVIL rule of law. And no tax policies in the world can get around that fact.

Even if NI were to drop their corporate tax rates, I don't necessarily see how this will have a major impact on either investment or growth, and growth is the main issue here - especially job growth. And before they try to tinker with corporate tax rates, there needs to be some kind of political debate around overall tax rates, and in particular, getting the region to be a net contributor - or at least an even wash - when it comes to revenues versus expenditures.

PatricaMcKay

Given the legacy of British occupation and partition in Ireland it is a rather silly question to ask. Sadly though the Provisional movement has in recent years posed the solution as the intergration of the six counties into the Free State as opposed to the creation of a wholely new Ireland which does bring real problems with unity given the NHS would go, etc.

dlofnep

southsiderosie wrote: »

Even if NI were to drop their corporate tax rates, I don't necessarily see how this will have a major impact on either investment or growth, and growth is the main issue here - especially job growth. And before they try to tinker with corporate tax rates, there needs to be some kind of political debate around overall tax rates, and in particular, getting the region to be a net contributor - or at least an even wash - when it comes to revenues versus expenditures.

It most certainly would assist FDI, but more importantly - allow for more local small to medium sized enterprises, to wean the workforce away from public sector dependency. That is the largest problem facing the north in terms of becoming a politically & economically independent entity.

The reality is - there cannot be an honest political debate around taxation, because taxation is controlled from Westminster. One of the many flaws of a centrally-controlled political union.

junder

bmarley wrote: »

What would be the point - they have their own monetary system, political system, culture, language etc and we have ours - so what would there to be gained for anyone. It would simple stir up too many old wounds and create more rivalry than it would be worth. Besides, it is never going to happen.

dlofnep wrote: »

It most certainly would assist FDI, but more importantly - allow for more local small to medium sized enterprises, to wean the workforce away from public sector dependency. That is the largest problem facing the north in terms of becoming a politically & economically independent entity.

The reality is - there cannot be an honest political debate around taxation, because taxation is controlled from Westminster. One of the many flaws of a centrally-controlled political union.

So if there was a united Ireland were would the taxs be decided?

Wolfe Tone

junder wrote: »

So if there was a united Ireland were would the taxs be decided?

You would have much more of a say in that matter than you currently do now.

southsiderosie

dlofnep wrote: »

It most certainly would assist FDI, but more importantly - allow for more local small to medium sized enterprises, to wean the workforce away from public sector dependency. That is the largest problem facing the north in terms of becoming a politically & economically independent entity.

The reality is - there cannot be an honest political debate around taxation, because taxation is controlled from Westminster. One of the many flaws of a centrally-controlled political union.

That doesn't address the issue of the hostile environment for small businesses, which is particularly pronounced in areas where the need for jobs is the greatest. I see you left that part of my post out of your reply.

It also doesn't guarantee that local people will get the jobs that are created - as the experience in the Republic shows, a lot of jobs will go to other EU nationals, not necessarily locals.

Relying on FDI, especially in industries which do not require a great deal of investment in physical capital can be a dangerous game - these companies can pick up and leave if and when they get a sweeter deal elsewhere. The key is to capture enough of the spillover benefits so that the regional economy can sustain some of these gains. This is difficult under the best of conditions, and it seems impossible in the North, particularly since businesses, like the government, are seen by political leaders as sources of cash, rather than sources of long-term investment that may have greater social and economic benefit beyond one's own little curb-painted corner.

PatricaMcKay

southsiderosie wrote: »

That doesn't address the issue of the hostile environment for small businesses, which is particularly pronounced in areas where the need for jobs is the greatest. I see you left that part of my post out of your reply.

Lets face reality, good jobs are generally offered by large and not small businesses. Small business men and women are some of the smallest minded, selfish walking abortions of human personality around the place. They are only capable of thinking of their own narrow interests which they consider the whole of the rest of society should bow down to. They are a chain around everything that is of value in humanity.

mike65

Economically (and this is assuming a UI was viable which it isn't for the forseeable future thanks to the Soldiers of Destiny) NI would either drain the Big 26 and cause great resentment or it would flounder. As pointed out previously its basicly a Public Sector basket case. How many tax inspectors and parking wardens can a debt crippled 32 county state fund? Might need a "B Ark" type solution.

southsiderosie

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Lets face reality, good jobs are generally offered by large and not small businesses. Small business men and women are some of the smallest minded, selfish walking abortions of human personality around the place. They are only capable of thinking of their own narrow interests which they consider the whole of the rest of society should bow down to. They are a chain around everything that is of value in humanity.

Given that over half the UK workforce is employed by a small or medium sized enterprise (SME), this is not a productive attitude to have if you are serious about job creation in NI. The shipyards are not re-opening anytime soon, and most factories in Western countries don't need 30,000 people these days. Let's be realistic here.

kippy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Lets face reality, good jobs are generally offered by large and not small businesses. Small business men and women are some of the smallest minded, selfish walking abortions of human personality around the place. They are only capable of thinking of their own narrow interests which they consider the whole of the rest of society should bow down to. They are a chain around everything that is of value in humanity.

A tad unfair bearing in mind that every business was once a small business.

dlofnep

junder wrote: »

So if there was a united Ireland were would the taxs be decided?

Where is irrelevant. By whom is the more pertinent question, and what would be by the people of Ireland, and not by a foreign parliament.

mike65

The UK government in Westminster is not foreign if you are in NI though. The one in Dublin is.

PatricaMcKay

mike65 wrote: »

The UK government in Westminster is not foreign if you are in NI though. The one in Dublin is.

I know a lot of Welsh and Scottish (and even Cornish people!) who consider Westminster a foreign government. Let me ask you this was the French government in Paris a foreign one or not when the French were occupying Algeria?

dlofnep

southsiderosie wrote: »

That doesn't address the issue of the hostile environment for small businesses, which is particularly pronounced in areas where the need for jobs is the greatest. I see you left that part of my post out of your reply.

It also doesn't guarantee that local people will get the jobs that are created - as the experience in the Republic shows, a lot of jobs will go to other EU nationals, not necessarily locals.

Relying on FDI, especially in industries which do not require a great deal of investment in physical capital can be a dangerous game - these companies can pick up and leave if and when they get a sweeter deal elsewhere. The key is to capture enough of the spillover benefits so that the regional economy can sustain some of these gains. This is difficult under the best of conditions, and it seems impossible in the North, particularly since businesses, like the government, are seen by political leaders as sources of cash, rather than sources of long-term investment that may have greater social and economic benefit beyond one's own little curb-painted corner.

Yeah, that's an awful amount of typing to say absolutely nothing. I spoke businessmen in Derry who work as part of local trade missions, and they have said one of the biggest concerns was the issue of being unable to control their own taxation. Quite simply - growth requires job creation, and under the current economic landscape - it is hard to entice investment or create employment.

The key issue for nationalists is becoming economically independent, or showing that they have the potential to become as such. Otherwise, the public sector dependent workforce will be unsustainable.

So tell me exactly how you would go about creating employment, or creating the landscape that would entice it?

kippy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

I know a lot of Welsh and Scottish (and even Cornish people!) who consider Westminster a foreign government. Let me ask you this was the French government in Paris a foreign one or not when the French were occupying Algeria?

I know a lot of people in the Republic who dont agree with what the democratically elected government of this country do either - I'd say you'll find a few who consider them foreign.

Also, one has to ask who is calling the shots in the republic any more. The IMF/EU seem to have more clout than the elected government.

dlofnep

mike65 wrote: »

The UK government in Westminster is not foreign if you are in NI though. The one in Dublin is.

It is foreign to the nationalist population of the north, and it is foreign to unionists in the sense that they do not actually have any real influence over many political and economic issues.

When I say foreign parliament - I'm not talking about buzzwords, I'm talking about a house that politicians do not have any influence or have the potential to have influence in. That is foreign.

The location of the parliament like I said isn't the issue, it's the influence that one has in the parliament that's the issue. It could be in Belfast, Derry or Dublin. It doesn't matter. I would actually propose a federal system.

PatricaMcKay

kippy wrote: »

Also, one has to ask who is calling the shots in the republic any more. The IMF/EU seem to have more clout than the elected government.

One could also ask again how much real independence the Free State ever had and just how democratic it has ever been, no?

kippy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

One could also ask again how much real independence the Free State ever had and just how democratic it has ever been, no?

They could.
As pointed out numerous times in this thread we've never had a "united" Ireland with a democratically elected government and I dont think we'll see it in my lifetime due to money essentially..

KeithAFC

and it is foreign to unionists in the sense that they do not actually have any real influence over many political and economic issues.

It ain't to me.

Lame Lantern

I really hate the answers you get on the internet from citizens of the republic to this question.

"If there's no material benefit for me, why bother?" is not fair to the nationalist community of the north that endured decades of state oppression as the south gradually became disinterested in their situation, a community that would consider itself Irish and would refuse to identify as British. It amounts to excluding a community that views itself (entirely correctly) as sharing the same culture and history as those of us in the south for short term financial reasons.

kippy

Lame Lantern wrote: »

I really hate the answers you get on the internet from citizens of the republic to this question.

"If there's no material benefit for me, why bother?" is not fair to the nationalist community of the north that endured decades of state oppression as the south gradually became disinterested in their situation, a community that would consider itself Irish and would refuse to identify as British. It amounts to excluding a community that views itself (entirely correctly) as sharing the same culture and history as those of us in the south for short term financial reasons.

There is part of the community in the North that would consider itself British as well isnt there?
The culture and history of the North is very different from that of the South - the last 100 odd years anyway and that goes for everyone up there.
I am aware of how catholics were treated up there in a number of areas however from what I can tell that has changed drasticilly in the past ten years or so and will continue to change as long as the catholics continue to overtake the protestants in numbers - that together with the increase in powers to the devolved government over there should (in theory) continually improve the conditions FOR ALL up there as time goes by.

KeithAFC

kippy wrote: »

There is part of the community in the North that would consider itself British as well isnt there?
The culture and history of the North is very different from that of the South - the last 100 odd years anyway and that goes for everyone up there.
I am aware of how catholics were treated up there in a number of areas however from what I can tell that has changed drasticilly in the past ten years or so and will continue to change as long as the catholics continue to overtake the protestants in numbers - that together with the increase in powers to the devolved government over there should (in theory) continually improve the conditions FOR ALL up there as time goes by.

Doesn't even matter who over takes who in numbers, those days are truly gone. Regardless of religion.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

Doesn't even matter who over takes who in numbers, those days are truly gone. Regardless of religion.

What days did you say have truelly gone?

Cough, cough.... http://www.belfastmedia.com/news_article.php?ID=4876

The Orange state remains what it always was.

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

What days did you say have truelly gone?

Cough, cough.... http://www.belfastmedia.com/news_article.php?ID=4876

The Orange state remains what it always was.

Could be lots of reasons for that. Catholics breed in a big way, so its not easy creating so many homes quickly.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

Could be lots of reasons for that. Catholics breed in a big way, so its not easy creating so many homes quickly.

Did some one hear a mask slip?

There could be lots of reasons true, but the only probable one is that the occupied six counties remain a heavily militarized sectarian fascist state in essence despite the RUC getting new badges and Marty playing chuckle brothers with Big Ian.

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Did some one hear a mask slip?

There could be lots of reasons true, but the only probable one is that the occupied six counties remain a heavily militarized sectarian fascist state in essence despite the RUC getting new badges and Marty playing chuckle brothers with Big Ian.

Yeah and the moon is made of cheese and 9/11 never happened.

We either have a serious discussion on it or we don't. And it is true, Catholics do in general breed a lot more than Protestants.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

We either have a serious discussion on it or we don't. And it is true, Catholics do in general breed a lot more than Protestants.

In the past maybe, not now, seriously compare the birth rates of Ireland , France or Italy with England, Sweden or the USA (I could add in a bitchy comment here but I will spare you)....Though Unionists in the six counties dont seem to have much interest in having kids (cos maybe they realize their whole "grand wee country"/failed little project wont be lasting that much longer), and those that do tend to get out of the wee six in order to live relatively normal lives (impossible the sick emotionally charged atmosphere of Orange fascism).

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

In the past maybe, not now, seriously compare the birth rates of Ireland , France or Italy with England, Sweden or the USA (I could add in a bitchy comment here but I will spare you)....Though Unionists in the six counties dont seem to have much interest in having kids (cos maybe they realize their whole "grand wee country"/failed little project wont be lasting that much longer), and those that do tend to get out of the wee six in order to live relatively normal lives (impossible the sick emotionally charged atmosphere of Orange fascism).

Aren't Catholics birth rates higher than Protestants? So yes, i was right.

I don't honestly know why you keep going on about Orange fascism (basically pointing out the Orange Order) when the vast majority of unionists/loyalists aren't in the Orange Order. I don't see your point to be honest.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

Aren't Catholics birth rates higher than Protestants? So yes, i was right.

They are on a par actually for most countries, and the birth rate of northern Republicans and nationalists is not significantly higher than the European average so basically you were showing your bigotry.

And "Orange" as a political term, similarly to the word "Red" in a political context, can be applied quite widely. It nicely sums up the gushing over the degenerate British Royals, the love affair with the child abusers and murderers of the British Army and the vicious sectarianism that makes Unionism so very, very special.

wingsof daun

I want a united Ireland because we do not need the British governmant meddling in our affairs. We also need unity on a human to human level, hardline groups in N. Ireland need to change the way they think. If we ever want change in our country we need to be on a united front...I think a lot of people want the fine gael/fine fail regime removed. I certainly do, they are allies of the American war machine and are fully cooperative with them, we seen that from Shannon, and lately from the White house visit by Kenny.

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

They are on a par actually for most countries, and the birth rate of northern Republicans and nationalists is not significantly higher than the European average so basically you were showing your bigotry.

And "Orange" as a political term, similarly to the word "Red" in a political context, can be applied quite widely. It nicely sums up the gushing over the degenerate British Royals, the love affair with the child abusers and murderers of the British Army and the vicious sectarianism that makes Unionism so very, very special.

We aren't talking about other countries though. You know very well we are talking about Northern Ireland and the birth rate in Northern Ireland. So my point still stands. More catholics will obviously need more homes because they breed more than Protestants.

And i don't want to go down the whole child abuse thing as frankly, it is rather silly and i don't want to go into the whole thing.

shamrock55

because its ours

PatricaMcKay

wingsof daun wrote: »

We also need unity on a human to human level, hardline groups in N. Ireland need to change the way they think. If we ever want change in our country we need to be on a united front...I think a lot of people want the fine gael/fine fail regime removed. I certainly do, they are allies of the American war machine and are fully cooperative with them, we seen that from Shannon, and lately from the White house visit by Kenny.

"Moderate" Unionists you will find tend to support the British Army where ever it goes and what ever it does, and the Brits in recent years have been more than happy to back up their NATO ally, just as they have an obscene love affair with the zionist settler state occupying Palestine. However corrupt and Imperialist loving the Free State regime in the 26 counties at least its not in NATO.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

We aren't talking about other countries though. You know very well we are talking about Northern Ireland and the birth rate in Northern Ireland. So my point still stands. More catholics will obviously need more homes because they breed more than Protestants.
.

Yeah the Papists have two or three kids is the reason why they will make up 95 per cent of the waiting list by 2012?

You couldnt make it up.

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Yeah the Papists have two or three kids is the reason why they will make up 95 per cent of the waiting list by 2012?

You couldnt make it up.

To be honest, the article goes down an odd root indeed anyway. Its people, not catholics. I don't see what difference their faith in believing in a god makes but anyway.

sollar

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Yeah the Papists have two or three kids is the reason why they will make up 95 per cent of the waiting list by 2012?

You couldnt make it up.

Yeah it still stinks of the black north.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

To be honest, the article goes down an odd root indeed anyway. Its people, not catholics. I don't see what difference their faith in believing in a god makes but anyway.

I dont either....But explain the rationale behind Unionism and the policy of targeting any old person from a Roman Catholic background for murder that it had during the last northern insurgency than?

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

I dont either....But explain the rationale behind Unionism and the policy of targeting any old person from a Roman Catholic background for murder that it had during the last northern insurgency than?

Eh? Are you going on about The Troubles?

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

Eh? Are you going on about The Troubles?

If another full blown insurgency breaks out in the occupied north are you telling me that Unionists wont be out there killing any old Papist again? Seriously?

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

If another full blown insurgency breaks out in the occupied north are you telling me that Unionists wont be out there killing any old Papist again? Seriously?

You telling me the 'IRA' are going to not try to blow kids to bits? I don't see what the point is your making to be honest? Where is this discussion going? I'd like for it to get back on topic to be honest.

wingsof daun

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

"Moderate" Unionists you will find tend to support the British Army where ever it goes and what ever it does, and the Brits in recent years have been more than happy to back up their NATO ally, just as they have an obscene love affair with the zionist settler state occupying Palestine. However corrupt and Imperialist loving the Free State regime in the 26 counties at least its not in NATO.

Being in NATO is out of the question for us as a "neutral" country. We, as the 26 counties, are either for or against the Zionists and the American war machine, there is no in between - and all evidence points to the fact that they are for.
Many unionists are brainwashed into believing the British army as their friend and protector against sectaranism etc. Those people are gradually seeing that all their work is not good.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

You telling me the 'IRA' are going to not try to blow kids to bits? I don't see what the point is your making to be honest? Where is this discussion going? I'd like for it to get back on topic to be honest.

The IRA went out of its way to avoid civilian causalities during the last insurgency and showed for the most part (the unit led by Billy McKee being a shameful expection) immense restraint in the face of brutal provocation, though many in the Republican movement thought they should have been even more restrained (as if that would have made any difference to the Unionists..:rolleyes:). You know well the point Im making. The six county statelet was founded on sectarianism, is in essence sectarian and therefore has to be completely dismantled with the rabid idealogly that has fueled it all these long years being completely destoried as a political force.

PatricaMcKay

wingsof daun wrote: »

Being in NATO is out of the question for us as a "neutral" country. We, as the 26 counties, are either for or against the Zionists and the American war machine, there is no in between - and all evidence points to the fact that they are for.
Many unionists are brainwashed into believing the British army as their friend and protector against sectaranism etc. Those people are gradually seeing that all their work is not good.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80106 ...Some neutrality.

It is a mistake that I personally made and Republicans generally make to see the Unionists as victims to be appeased and as hopelessly brainwashed so that they cant think straight, personally I find that attitude condescending to the point of bordering on sectarianism. They have brains and make decisions with them...Same as the rest of us.

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

The IRA went out of its way to avoid civilian causalities during the last insurgency and showed for the most part (the unit led by Billy McKee being a shameful expection) immense restraint in the face of brutal provocation, though many in the Republican movement thought they should have been even more restrained (as if that would have made any difference to the Unionists..:rolleyes:). You know well the point Im making. The six county statelet was founded on sectarianism, is in essence sectarian and therefore has to be completely dismantled with the rabid idealogly that has fueled it all these long years being completely destoried as a political force.

Your just repeating yourself at the moment. We all know what the PIRA did and where about. We don't need to try and re write history. Im well aware of what they did. And the same with the UVF and UDA. We all know the history. It does not require re writing.

Scram

Cause it harder to remember the names of the 6 counties...