Why exactly do people want a united Ireland?

southsiderosie

dlofnep wrote: »

It most certainly would assist FDI, but more importantly - allow for more local small to medium sized enterprises, to wean the workforce away from public sector dependency. That is the largest problem facing the north in terms of becoming a politically & economically independent entity.

The reality is - there cannot be an honest political debate around taxation, because taxation is controlled from Westminster. One of the many flaws of a centrally-controlled political union.

That doesn't address the issue of the hostile environment for small businesses, which is particularly pronounced in areas where the need for jobs is the greatest. I see you left that part of my post out of your reply.

It also doesn't guarantee that local people will get the jobs that are created - as the experience in the Republic shows, a lot of jobs will go to other EU nationals, not necessarily locals.

Relying on FDI, especially in industries which do not require a great deal of investment in physical capital can be a dangerous game - these companies can pick up and leave if and when they get a sweeter deal elsewhere. The key is to capture enough of the spillover benefits so that the regional economy can sustain some of these gains. This is difficult under the best of conditions, and it seems impossible in the North, particularly since businesses, like the government, are seen by political leaders as sources of cash, rather than sources of long-term investment that may have greater social and economic benefit beyond one's own little curb-painted corner.

PatricaMcKay

southsiderosie wrote: »

That doesn't address the issue of the hostile environment for small businesses, which is particularly pronounced in areas where the need for jobs is the greatest. I see you left that part of my post out of your reply.

Lets face reality, good jobs are generally offered by large and not small businesses. Small business men and women are some of the smallest minded, selfish walking abortions of human personality around the place. They are only capable of thinking of their own narrow interests which they consider the whole of the rest of society should bow down to. They are a chain around everything that is of value in humanity.

mike65

Economically (and this is assuming a UI was viable which it isn't for the forseeable future thanks to the Soldiers of Destiny) NI would either drain the Big 26 and cause great resentment or it would flounder. As pointed out previously its basicly a Public Sector basket case. How many tax inspectors and parking wardens can a debt crippled 32 county state fund? Might need a "B Ark" type solution.

southsiderosie

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Lets face reality, good jobs are generally offered by large and not small businesses. Small business men and women are some of the smallest minded, selfish walking abortions of human personality around the place. They are only capable of thinking of their own narrow interests which they consider the whole of the rest of society should bow down to. They are a chain around everything that is of value in humanity.

Given that over half the UK workforce is employed by a small or medium sized enterprise (SME), this is not a productive attitude to have if you are serious about job creation in NI. The shipyards are not re-opening anytime soon, and most factories in Western countries don't need 30,000 people these days. Let's be realistic here.

kippy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Lets face reality, good jobs are generally offered by large and not small businesses. Small business men and women are some of the smallest minded, selfish walking abortions of human personality around the place. They are only capable of thinking of their own narrow interests which they consider the whole of the rest of society should bow down to. They are a chain around everything that is of value in humanity.

A tad unfair bearing in mind that every business was once a small business.

dlofnep

junder wrote: »

So if there was a united Ireland were would the taxs be decided?

Where is irrelevant. By whom is the more pertinent question, and what would be by the people of Ireland, and not by a foreign parliament.

mike65

The UK government in Westminster is not foreign if you are in NI though. The one in Dublin is.

PatricaMcKay

mike65 wrote: »

The UK government in Westminster is not foreign if you are in NI though. The one in Dublin is.

I know a lot of Welsh and Scottish (and even Cornish people!) who consider Westminster a foreign government. Let me ask you this was the French government in Paris a foreign one or not when the French were occupying Algeria?

dlofnep

southsiderosie wrote: »

That doesn't address the issue of the hostile environment for small businesses, which is particularly pronounced in areas where the need for jobs is the greatest. I see you left that part of my post out of your reply.

It also doesn't guarantee that local people will get the jobs that are created - as the experience in the Republic shows, a lot of jobs will go to other EU nationals, not necessarily locals.

Relying on FDI, especially in industries which do not require a great deal of investment in physical capital can be a dangerous game - these companies can pick up and leave if and when they get a sweeter deal elsewhere. The key is to capture enough of the spillover benefits so that the regional economy can sustain some of these gains. This is difficult under the best of conditions, and it seems impossible in the North, particularly since businesses, like the government, are seen by political leaders as sources of cash, rather than sources of long-term investment that may have greater social and economic benefit beyond one's own little curb-painted corner.

Yeah, that's an awful amount of typing to say absolutely nothing. I spoke businessmen in Derry who work as part of local trade missions, and they have said one of the biggest concerns was the issue of being unable to control their own taxation. Quite simply - growth requires job creation, and under the current economic landscape - it is hard to entice investment or create employment.

The key issue for nationalists is becoming economically independent, or showing that they have the potential to become as such. Otherwise, the public sector dependent workforce will be unsustainable.

So tell me exactly how you would go about creating employment, or creating the landscape that would entice it?

kippy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

I know a lot of Welsh and Scottish (and even Cornish people!) who consider Westminster a foreign government. Let me ask you this was the French government in Paris a foreign one or not when the French were occupying Algeria?

I know a lot of people in the Republic who dont agree with what the democratically elected government of this country do either - I'd say you'll find a few who consider them foreign.

Also, one has to ask who is calling the shots in the republic any more. The IMF/EU seem to have more clout than the elected government.

dlofnep

mike65 wrote: »

The UK government in Westminster is not foreign if you are in NI though. The one in Dublin is.

It is foreign to the nationalist population of the north, and it is foreign to unionists in the sense that they do not actually have any real influence over many political and economic issues.

When I say foreign parliament - I'm not talking about buzzwords, I'm talking about a house that politicians do not have any influence or have the potential to have influence in. That is foreign.

The location of the parliament like I said isn't the issue, it's the influence that one has in the parliament that's the issue. It could be in Belfast, Derry or Dublin. It doesn't matter. I would actually propose a federal system.

PatricaMcKay

kippy wrote: »

Also, one has to ask who is calling the shots in the republic any more. The IMF/EU seem to have more clout than the elected government.

One could also ask again how much real independence the Free State ever had and just how democratic it has ever been, no?

kippy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

One could also ask again how much real independence the Free State ever had and just how democratic it has ever been, no?

They could.
As pointed out numerous times in this thread we've never had a "united" Ireland with a democratically elected government and I dont think we'll see it in my lifetime due to money essentially..

KeithAFC

and it is foreign to unionists in the sense that they do not actually have any real influence over many political and economic issues.

It ain't to me.

Lame Lantern

I really hate the answers you get on the internet from citizens of the republic to this question.

"If there's no material benefit for me, why bother?" is not fair to the nationalist community of the north that endured decades of state oppression as the south gradually became disinterested in their situation, a community that would consider itself Irish and would refuse to identify as British. It amounts to excluding a community that views itself (entirely correctly) as sharing the same culture and history as those of us in the south for short term financial reasons.

kippy

Lame Lantern wrote: »

I really hate the answers you get on the internet from citizens of the republic to this question.

"If there's no material benefit for me, why bother?" is not fair to the nationalist community of the north that endured decades of state oppression as the south gradually became disinterested in their situation, a community that would consider itself Irish and would refuse to identify as British. It amounts to excluding a community that views itself (entirely correctly) as sharing the same culture and history as those of us in the south for short term financial reasons.

There is part of the community in the North that would consider itself British as well isnt there?
The culture and history of the North is very different from that of the South - the last 100 odd years anyway and that goes for everyone up there.
I am aware of how catholics were treated up there in a number of areas however from what I can tell that has changed drasticilly in the past ten years or so and will continue to change as long as the catholics continue to overtake the protestants in numbers - that together with the increase in powers to the devolved government over there should (in theory) continually improve the conditions FOR ALL up there as time goes by.

KeithAFC

kippy wrote: »

There is part of the community in the North that would consider itself British as well isnt there?
The culture and history of the North is very different from that of the South - the last 100 odd years anyway and that goes for everyone up there.
I am aware of how catholics were treated up there in a number of areas however from what I can tell that has changed drasticilly in the past ten years or so and will continue to change as long as the catholics continue to overtake the protestants in numbers - that together with the increase in powers to the devolved government over there should (in theory) continually improve the conditions FOR ALL up there as time goes by.

Doesn't even matter who over takes who in numbers, those days are truly gone. Regardless of religion.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

Doesn't even matter who over takes who in numbers, those days are truly gone. Regardless of religion.

What days did you say have truelly gone?

Cough, cough.... http://www.belfastmedia.com/news_article.php?ID=4876

The Orange state remains what it always was.

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

What days did you say have truelly gone?

Cough, cough.... http://www.belfastmedia.com/news_article.php?ID=4876

The Orange state remains what it always was.

Could be lots of reasons for that. Catholics breed in a big way, so its not easy creating so many homes quickly.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

Could be lots of reasons for that. Catholics breed in a big way, so its not easy creating so many homes quickly.

Did some one hear a mask slip?

There could be lots of reasons true, but the only probable one is that the occupied six counties remain a heavily militarized sectarian fascist state in essence despite the RUC getting new badges and Marty playing chuckle brothers with Big Ian.

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Did some one hear a mask slip?

There could be lots of reasons true, but the only probable one is that the occupied six counties remain a heavily militarized sectarian fascist state in essence despite the RUC getting new badges and Marty playing chuckle brothers with Big Ian.

Yeah and the moon is made of cheese and 9/11 never happened.

We either have a serious discussion on it or we don't. And it is true, Catholics do in general breed a lot more than Protestants.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

We either have a serious discussion on it or we don't. And it is true, Catholics do in general breed a lot more than Protestants.

In the past maybe, not now, seriously compare the birth rates of Ireland , France or Italy with England, Sweden or the USA (I could add in a bitchy comment here but I will spare you)....Though Unionists in the six counties dont seem to have much interest in having kids (cos maybe they realize their whole "grand wee country"/failed little project wont be lasting that much longer), and those that do tend to get out of the wee six in order to live relatively normal lives (impossible the sick emotionally charged atmosphere of Orange fascism).

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

In the past maybe, not now, seriously compare the birth rates of Ireland , France or Italy with England, Sweden or the USA (I could add in a bitchy comment here but I will spare you)....Though Unionists in the six counties dont seem to have much interest in having kids (cos maybe they realize their whole "grand wee country"/failed little project wont be lasting that much longer), and those that do tend to get out of the wee six in order to live relatively normal lives (impossible the sick emotionally charged atmosphere of Orange fascism).

Aren't Catholics birth rates higher than Protestants? So yes, i was right.

I don't honestly know why you keep going on about Orange fascism (basically pointing out the Orange Order) when the vast majority of unionists/loyalists aren't in the Orange Order. I don't see your point to be honest.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

Aren't Catholics birth rates higher than Protestants? So yes, i was right.

They are on a par actually for most countries, and the birth rate of northern Republicans and nationalists is not significantly higher than the European average so basically you were showing your bigotry.

And "Orange" as a political term, similarly to the word "Red" in a political context, can be applied quite widely. It nicely sums up the gushing over the degenerate British Royals, the love affair with the child abusers and murderers of the British Army and the vicious sectarianism that makes Unionism so very, very special.

wingsof daun

I want a united Ireland because we do not need the British governmant meddling in our affairs. We also need unity on a human to human level, hardline groups in N. Ireland need to change the way they think. If we ever want change in our country we need to be on a united front...I think a lot of people want the fine gael/fine fail regime removed. I certainly do, they are allies of the American war machine and are fully cooperative with them, we seen that from Shannon, and lately from the White house visit by Kenny.

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

They are on a par actually for most countries, and the birth rate of northern Republicans and nationalists is not significantly higher than the European average so basically you were showing your bigotry.

And "Orange" as a political term, similarly to the word "Red" in a political context, can be applied quite widely. It nicely sums up the gushing over the degenerate British Royals, the love affair with the child abusers and murderers of the British Army and the vicious sectarianism that makes Unionism so very, very special.

We aren't talking about other countries though. You know very well we are talking about Northern Ireland and the birth rate in Northern Ireland. So my point still stands. More catholics will obviously need more homes because they breed more than Protestants.

And i don't want to go down the whole child abuse thing as frankly, it is rather silly and i don't want to go into the whole thing.

shamrock55

because its ours

PatricaMcKay

wingsof daun wrote: »

We also need unity on a human to human level, hardline groups in N. Ireland need to change the way they think. If we ever want change in our country we need to be on a united front...I think a lot of people want the fine gael/fine fail regime removed. I certainly do, they are allies of the American war machine and are fully cooperative with them, we seen that from Shannon, and lately from the White house visit by Kenny.

"Moderate" Unionists you will find tend to support the British Army where ever it goes and what ever it does, and the Brits in recent years have been more than happy to back up their NATO ally, just as they have an obscene love affair with the zionist settler state occupying Palestine. However corrupt and Imperialist loving the Free State regime in the 26 counties at least its not in NATO.

PatricaMcKay

KeithAFC wrote: »

We aren't talking about other countries though. You know very well we are talking about Northern Ireland and the birth rate in Northern Ireland. So my point still stands. More catholics will obviously need more homes because they breed more than Protestants.
.

Yeah the Papists have two or three kids is the reason why they will make up 95 per cent of the waiting list by 2012?

You couldnt make it up.

KeithAFC

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Yeah the Papists have two or three kids is the reason why they will make up 95 per cent of the waiting list by 2012?

You couldnt make it up.

To be honest, the article goes down an odd root indeed anyway. Its people, not catholics. I don't see what difference their faith in believing in a god makes but anyway.