Why exactly do people want a united Ireland?

Wolfe Tone

To a lot of people Martin McGuinness is not a republican.

kippy

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

To a lot of people Martin McGuinness is not a republican.

What is he to them - how many is "a lot"?

southsiderosie

KeithAFC wrote: »

Also, Catholics trying to move in loyalist estates would be rather silly really. Why would they want to live amongst loyalists with the estate full of loyalist memorials and murals?

Because it is public housing, and if people on the housing list could move anywhere it was available, there wouldn't be such a backlog. And the main groups of people trying to rent in or near loyalist housing estates in inner-city Belfast today aren't NI Catholics, they are foreigners looking for cheap housing.

People have this idea that it's THEIR turf and nobody else can live there. Then they complain that there aren't jobs, and their neighborhoods are falling apart. Again, if place like Belfast were like any other post-industrial city civic leaders would be able to promote is as a place where the costs are relatively low and there is a lot of cheap housing stock available. But it's not 'available' because some people want to block anyone else from living there.

southsiderosie

Lame Lantern wrote: »

I really hate the answers you get on the internet from citizens of the republic to this question.

"If there's no material benefit for me, why bother?" is not fair to the nationalist community of the north that endured decades of state oppression as the south gradually became disinterested in their situation, a community that would consider itself Irish and would refuse to identify as British. It amounts to excluding a community that views itself (entirely correctly) as sharing the same culture and history as those of us in the south for short term financial reasons.

You would get an awful lot of nationalists asking the same question. Dublin cannot afford NI levels of public spending. Are nationalists prepared to give up the NHS and state-backed community development schemes? Even if 20% of the nationalist community felt that they would be better off for economic reasons as part of the UK, that is enough to thwart any ballot initiative.

Trooperboyo

dlofnep wrote: »

No, they do not have democracy. Nationalists have 8 seats, in a 646 house which represents unionist interests, first and foremost. They cannot influence matters pertaining to taxation, foreign policy or defense. They were forced into a situation against the will of the majority, and now have to compromise at every single corner on the smallest of issues. That is not democracy. The north's economy is largely dependent on the public sector, largely due to high corporation tax rates.

It's also about national identity. The nationalist population does not want to live under British rule. They feel that their cultural and national aspirations are not being protected. It's a quite simple concept.

The other side of that penny is the unionist community, what about them?

Is this not the same as being part of the European Union? And would they be that bothered about taxation ect if the cost of living and better living standards are seen in the north?

IMO national identity and culture is down to the individual and is a personal issue, it's none of the governements bussiness.

PatricaMcKay

kippy wrote: »

What is he to them - how many is "a lot"?

Martin Mc Guinness is on a record as referring to Republican Volunteers as traitors to the "Island of Ireland" (how I hate that phrase!), and no I dont support the Real IRA because I dont believe that romantic militarism got us anywhere in the 50s and I dont think it will get us anywhere now, however whatever they are they are not traitors. For him to say that flanked by the head of the paramilitaritary colonial milita on one side of him and Peter Robinson on the other was not the act of a Republican. Helping to administer British rule along side the likes of the DUP in the glorified county council that is Stormount is not the act of a Republican. What Marty he is is basically a Roman Catholic politician representing Roman Catholics interests in the sectarian context of an Imperialist insitution which is very far from being an Irish Republican. While many people might continue to vote for Provisional Sinn Fein for similar reasons people actually vote for the BNP over in England, i.e. to get jobs or flats for "their community" they have lost respect and real support in the Republican heartlands. The sad thing is that a real alternative has not arisen yet.

kippy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Martin Mc Guinness is on a record as referring to Republican Volunteers as traitors to the "Island of Ireland" (how I hate that phrase!), and no I dont support the Real IRA because I dont believe that romantic militarism got us anywhere in the 50s and I dont think it will get us anywhere now, however whatever they are they are not traitors. For him to say that flanked by the head of the paramilitaritary colonial milita on one side of him and Peter Robinson on the other was not the act of a Republican. Helping to administer British rule along side the likes of the DUP in the glorified county council that is Stormount is not the act of a Republican. What Marty he is is basically a Roman Catholic politician representing Roman Catholics interests in the sectarian context of an Imperialist insitution which is very far from being an Irish Republican. While many people might continue to vote for Provisional Sinn Fein for similar reasons people actually vote for the BNP over in England, i.e. to get jobs or flats for "their community" they have lost respect and real support in the Republican heartlands. The sad thing is that a real alternative has not arisen yet.

So the you are not into democracy or the will of the majority by the sounds of it.

amacachi

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

TBH I look forward to seeing how NI manages when the taps from London are closed off.

PatricaMcKay

kippy wrote: »

So the you are not into democracy or the will of the majority by the sounds of it.

The partition of Ireland had nothing to do with democracy, nor did the creation of the two failed states in Ireland have much to do with it either...But all had a lot to do with British guns. If you are referring the oh so wonderous GFA let me remind you that that has already been dumped and replaced by the St Andrew's agreement which no one voted for....And the GFA itself was pushed through with a lot of threats of violence, spin and downright lies all of things Im sure you also find incredibly democratic. Democracy should actually involve people making informed decisions without intimidation, so with the lying, distorting and ignoring media we have in Ireland, the least respect for civil liberties in the whole of the EU (you can be jailed for 8 years in a trail without a jury in the Free State on the hunch of a Garda that you are in an "illegal organization"....we have more political prisoners in this country per capita than anywhere else in Europe), the willingness of the state on both sides of the border to use violence against those deemed its enemies whether actual Republican Volunteers or just mammies concerned about nacro-business men messing up their areas...Im not sure we have much of a democracy. Nor those the "will of majority" actually really matter in Ireland...Its the will of bankers, securocrats, foreign multinationals and devil knows what else that matters here in reality.

The Waltzing Consumer

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

The partition of Ireland had nothing to do with democracy, nor did the creation of the two failed states in Ireland have much to do with it either...But all had a lot to do with British guns. If you are referring the oh so wonderous GFA let me remind you that that has already been dumped and replaced by the St Andrew's agreement which no one voted for....And the GFA itself was pushed through with a lot of threats of violence, spin and downright lies all of things Im sure you also find incredibly democratic. Democracy should actually involve people making informed decisions without intimidation, so with the lying, distorting and ignoring media we have in Ireland, the least respect for civil liberties in the whole of the EU (you can be jailed for 8 years in a trail without a jury in the Free State on the hunch of a Garda that you are in an "illegal organization"....we have more political prisoners in this country per capita than anywhere else in Europe), the willingness of the state on both sides of the border to use violence against those deemed its enemies whether actual Republican Volunteers or just mammies concerned about nacro-business men messing up their areas...Im not sure we have much of a democracy. Nor those the "will of majority" actually really matter in Ireland...Its the will of bankers, securocrats, foreign multinationals and devil knows what else that matters here in reality.

Quite simply, there is not one sentence here that has an ounce of accuracy, honesty or reflects reality. Sorry Patricia, but it is all rubbish really.

The Waltzing Consumer

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/100-conviction-rate-reported-for-terrorism-offences-120273.html

Life must be sweet in your little middle class bubble though....:D

Quite odd to throw some abuse in with your point I find the people who will throw the words "middle class" like an insult are near 100% upper middle class or come from very wealthy families. :P

And what exactly does that link have to do with your completely inaccurate post ? It would help your argument if you could link these things.

Thanks

kippy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

The partition of Ireland had nothing to do with democracy, nor did the creation of the two failed states in Ireland have much to do with it either...But all had a lot to do with British guns. If you are referring the oh so wonderous GFA let me remind you that that has already been dumped and replaced by the St Andrew's agreement which no one voted for....And the GFA itself was pushed through with a lot of threats of violence, spin and downright lies all of things Im sure you also find incredibly democratic. Democracy should actually involve people making informed decisions without intimidation, so with the lying, distorting and ignoring media we have in Ireland, the least respect for civil liberties in the whole of the EU (you can be jailed for 8 years in a trail without a jury in the Free State on the hunch of a Garda that you are in an "illegal organization"....we have more political prisoners in this country per capita than anywhere else in Europe), the willingness of the state on both sides of the border to use violence against those deemed its enemies whether actual Republican Volunteers or just mammies concerned about nacro-business men messing up their areas...Im not sure we have much of a democracy. Nor those the "will of majority" actually really matter in Ireland...Its the will of bankers, securocrats, foreign multinationals and devil knows what else that matters here in reality.

So, what is everyone trying to hide - how have we been lied to?

In my opinion we've gone through a decade with very few civilian deaths at the hands of terrorist organisations - that to me is worth a lot more that than any rhetoric you spout.
"Political Prisoners" - Terrorists.

PatricaMcKay

kippy wrote: »

In my opinion we've gone through a decade with very few civilian deaths at the hands of terrorist organisations - that to me is worth a lot more that than any rhetoric you spout.
"Political Prisoners" - Terrorists.

If the only evidence that they belong to an organization which is different from actually having shot someone is that the hunch of a Garda how can you be sure if they are "terrorists"? How many of those interned are having been so because they were supposedly members of the INLA was on ceasefire for years before being recently disbanded, would they also count as "terrorists"? Also given the refusal of the Free State to protect working class communities in the 26 counties from drug gangs and the record of the Brits for protecting nationalist areas from Unionist violence, could it not be argued that the situation calls for some "terrorists" around the place?

xflyer

As opposed to the left wing proletarian fantasy bubble you live in!!!!!

Look Dannyboy83 hit the nail on the head a long time ago. NI is a welfare state supported by the British, no the English taxpayer. In large part of this is a legacy of the troubles, a victory of sorts for the PIRA.

We in the Republic cannot afford to absorb the North anymore. Not that we ever could even during the boom years. At partition it was worth having because so much of the industry concentrated there. The loss of that damaged the south badly. But it's gone now and the only reason to look for unification is emotional particularly since things have changed.

NI is in for a rough economic ride. The British in general are no longer happy to keep this legacy of empire. Many English would even like to offload the Scots.

The reality is that the North will have to become even closer to the Republic. Which in fact is happening. How it ends eventually is anybody's guess.

PatricaMcKay

kippy wrote: »

So, what is everyone trying to hide - how have we been lied to?

The media and state in Ireland ignore the abuse, exploitation and lying to of many, many people in this country in the workplace (many of whom are vunerable immigrants). They ignore issues like rape and domestic violence. They ignore the Free State police moving in against anyone trying to resist the control of drug gangs over certain areas. And when it comes to what is actually happening on the ground in the occupied north they are absolutely laughable. Things like the Shell give away and Nama though you are right are very much signs of a well functioning democracy.

kippy

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

, could it not be argued that the situation calls for some "terrorists" around the place?

NO





I am out of this thread - I've got as close to the level of arguing with a terrorist sympathiser as I wish to get.

The Waltzing Consumer

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

If the only evidence that they belong to an organization which is different from actually having shot someone is that the hunch of a Garda how can you be sure if they are "terrorists"?

It is more then the hunch of a Garda, and by pretending it is just a hunch of a Garda makes your argument ridiculous.

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

How many of those interned are having been so because they were supposedly members of the INLA was on ceasefire for years before being recently disbanded, would they also count as "terrorists"? Also given the refusal of the Free State to protect working class communities in the 26 counties from drug gangs and the record of the Brits for protecting nationalist areas from Unionist violence, could it not be argued that the situation calls for some "terrorists" around the place?

It seems you are defending the INLA in one sentence and then moaning about an imaginery state not protecting the "working class" from drug gangs in the next sentence. Anyone with a bit of knowledge and intelligence would see the absolute hypocrisy in this paragraph.

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

The media and state in Ireland ignore the abuse, exploitation and lying to of many, many people in this country in the workplace (many of whom are vunerable immigrants). They ignore issues like rape and domestic violence. They ignore the Free State police moving in against anyone trying to resist the control of drug gangs over certain areas. And when it comes to what is actually happening on the ground in the occupied north they are absolutely laughable. Things like the Shell give away and Nama though you are right are very much signs of a well functioning democracy.

Yes the media does surely ignore blah blah blah, it is amazing, it is even more amazing you reference the MEDIA who report on this when arguing your points. "The media ignore this, here is the article by the media about this to back this point up" :rolleyes:

Stop saying free state, it makes you look like some 100 year old civil war crank.

Wolfe Tone

It is more then the hunch of a Garda, and by pretending it is just a hunch of a Garda makes your argument ridiculous.

There are men in jail now simply on the word of police officers, and/or the Brit secretary of state. And its an absolute joke and a mockery of both the Irish and British "justice" system.

PatricaMcKay

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

It seems you are defending the INLA in one sentence and then moaning about an imaginery state not protecting the "working class" from drug gangs in the next sentence. Anyone with a bit of knowledge and intelligence would see the absolute hypocrisy in this paragraph.

Are you alleging that the Irish National Liberation Army was a drug gang? Do you have any evidence to back this up? The only INLA volunteers I can think who might possibly have been involved with drugs were those expelled and than went on the form the infamous IPLO. Can you name anyone involved with either the INLA or the IRSP who was convicted on drugs charges? Or do you have inside information on the workings of the underworld that I lack? If you do I hope you have gone to the police!

The Waltzing Consumer

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

There are men in jail now simply on the word of police officers, and/or the Brit secretary of state. And its an absolute joke and a mockery of both the Irish and British "justice" system.

Yeah, you ain't going to find many people complaining.

The Waltzing Consumer

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Are you alleging that the Irish National Liberation Army was a drug gang? Do you have any evidence to back this up? The only INLA volunteers I can think who might possibly have been involved with drugs were those expelled and than went on the form the infamous IPLO. Can you name anyone involved with either the INLA or the IRSP who was convicted on drugs charges? Or do you have inside information on the workings of the underworld that I lack? If you do I hope you have gone to the police!

:rolleyes: Yeah, I can see why posters are dumping this thread after arguing with you. I think I will join them.

PatricaMcKay

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

:rolleyes: Yeah, I can see why posters are dumping this thread after arguing with you. I think I will join them.

So you have no evidence of INLA volunteers or IRSP members being involved in the drugs trade?

Why make the accusation than?

Bloody Nipples

30% of the workforce of NI is employed in the public sector and the British government throws £5bn a year (or 20% of the entire NI economy) at it just to keep the place afloat. Why anyone would think it's a sound decision to get involved with an economic lame duck like that is beyond me, we're in a big enough of an economic shít storm as is.

southsiderosie

Patricia McKay, the kinds of statements you have made on this thread are exactly why many people in the south could live without a united Ireland.

Good luck building a socialist, anti-capitalist, anti-rule of law state that is also a beacon for investment and global talent and an engine of innovation, growth and job creation. :rolleyes:

KeithAFC

southsiderosie wrote: »

Patricia McKay, the kinds of statements you have made on this thread are exactly why many people in the south could live without a united Ireland.

Good luck building a socialist, anti-capitalist, anti-rule of law state that is also a beacon for investment and global talent and an engine of innovation, growth and job creation. :rolleyes:

Sums it up.

dan_d

In answer to the OP...Haven't a clue. The reality is we simply can't afford the North right now.The Brits are paying for it and to be honest, I myself am happy to let them keep paying for it.

cc4life

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

30% of the workforce of NI is employed in the public sector and the British government throws £5bn a year (or 20% of the entire NI economy) at it just to keep the place afloat. Why anyone would think it's a sound decision to get involved with an economic lame duck like that is beyond me, we're in a big enough of an economic shít storm as is.

Everything isnt about money

Tea drinker

shamrock55 wrote: »

because its ours

None of my family own anything up there. What do your family own up there that was taken from you?


And yeah everything is about money when you don't have it. Having said that the best reason to unite Ireland is if we could all build a better society together. There is no evidence this would happen if united. We are a limping target and NI is effectively down. Ultimately we are back to money again and the best time for this United thing is when you have plenty and can splash it around to boost morale.

p1akuw47h5r3it

cc4life wrote: »

Everything isnt about money

Well with the current economic situation in the Republic, it kindof is.

K-9

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

So you have no evidence of INLA volunteers or IRSP members being involved in the drugs trade?

Why make the accusation than?

It was known that they were at it in Dublin. Garda and journalist reports that you will not accept anyway, so it's pointless. Even if there were convictions, it'd probably be a frame up!