Sunderland v Liverpool Sky Sports 1 & HD1 at 1pm 20th March

flahavaj

Ye won't see the best of Carroll until next season lads. Ditto Torres at Chelsea.

I think he'll be very good signing for ye, but only if ye set the team upto play to his strengths - and that means top class wingers who cross the ball well. Playing the narrow formation ye have for years with a guy like him up front is a recipe for some very ugly long ball football like ye saw on Thursday night.

stumpypeeps

whatawaster wrote: »

I think Gary Cahill definitely has what it takes if we went for someone with PL experience.

I still see Martin Kelly as a centre back and a talented footballing centre back at that. He would also give us something we've not had in a long time, real pace there. I think we need a proper left back and to shift Johnson back to the right. A pairing of Kelly and Agger has a nice balance to it.

Kess73

flahavaj wrote: »

With a bitta luncheon mayte on it.

What centre backs would you have an eye on Kess.

I'd be hoping United are keeping a close eye on Simon Kjaer if Rio's injuries are as bad as feared. Or Subotic at Dortmund.

Well you just named one of them in Subotic, and my number one choice would be his partner at Dortmund, Hummels.


I think that Hummels and Subotic are already an excellent pairing and one that will only get better in time.

They are both so good despite their young age with things like positioning and leadership standing out as if both were in the game for ten years longer than they already have been.

Kjaer is a fine defender as well, but Hummels tops him in every department for me.

stumpypeeps

daithijjj wrote: »

He is being started so he can get match fitness stumpy, that will take 5 or 6 games at least. Its totally knee jerk to be writing lads off after todays game, as kenny says, we didnt buy him for a few weeks we bought him for 5 years.

I still think it was asking a little too much of him to start a game 3 days after playing a full 90 minutes. Especially after 2 months out.

To my eyes he's carrying an extra stone since he last played for Newcastle.

whatawaster

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I still see Martin Kelly as a centre back and a talented footballing centre back at that. He would also give us something we've not had in a long time, real pace there. I think we need a proper left back and to shift Johnson back to the right. A pairing of Kelly and Agger has a nice balance to it.

I'm not sure I agree anymore.

He has been so good at right back, and much better going forward than I expected that I can't see him being shifted from there next season. I think he'll break into the England team next season as well and we could well see him becoming a right back who can also play CB if needed

stumpypeeps

whatawaster wrote: »

I'm not sure I agree anymore.

He has been so good at right back, and much better going forward than I expected that I can't see him being shifted from there next season. I think he'll break into the England team next season as well and we could well see him becoming a right back who can also play CB if needed

You've got it all wrong, he's a centre back who can also play right back.

Likewise with Wilson we have something similar on the left.

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I still see Martin Kelly as a centre back and a talented footballing centre back at that. He would also give us something we've not had in a long time, real pace there. I think we need a proper left back and to shift Johnson back to the right. A pairing of Kelly and Agger has a nice balance to it.

I think that you are right in that Kelly could be an excellent CB. But his form at RB would make me reluctant to switch him from there next season.

I think that if we went for Hummels in the summer and picked up Taiwo on a free (My dream choice for LB would be Aly Cissoko) then we would have a back for of

Kelly---Hummels----Agger----Taiwo

Although in my mind getting Subotic in there in place of Agger would make it an even better back four.

It would give us a young, quick, strong and mobile back four who would all be good with the ball at their feet, and all would be capable of playing a physical game when needed.

stumpypeeps

Kess73 wrote: »

I think that you are right in that Kelly could be an excellent CB. But his form at RB would make me reluctant to switch him from there next season.

I think that if we went for Hummels in the summer and picked up Taiwo on a free (My dream choice for LB would be Aly Cissoko) then we would have a back for of

Kelly---Hummels----Agger----Taiwo

Although in my mind getting Subotic in there in place of Agger would make it an even better back four.

It would give us a young, quick, strong and mobile back four who would all be good with the ball at their feet, and all would be capable of playing a physical game when needed.

Word on the grapevine is that Taiwo has signed a pre contract agreement with Benfica. Which allows them to sell Contreau to Real.

Hummels I know nothing about. However, Kelly has so many attributes that could make him a great centre back. Johnson has improved greatly since Clarke arrived so switching him back to right back makes sense. Kelly can act as cover when needed.

Melion

I think Kelly is too good to just have as cover

monkey9

The thing about Carroll is, we did of course pay way over the odds for him, but we paid what we needed to pay to get him.

The club obviously feel that Carroll can help become part of a hopefully title winning and Champions league winning team. Himself and Suarez are what they must believe are the first pieces.

If Carroll can help us achieve what we want to achieve, then it's obviously worth having him than not having him and this justifies the feed paid to get him.

We're probably not gonna see the best of him til next season anyway. This season was a write off so at least he has these few months to settle into the club and the team and to get used to playing with Suarez. At least he won't be starting from scratch come August the way he would have if we had bought him in the summer and surely Newcastle would be looking for a similar fee anyway.

Every transfer is a gamble. The outcome of this particular gamble cannot be ascertained at the moment so let's just give Carroll time to prove that Kenny Dalglish was right to pay £35m if that was what it took to bring Andy Carroll to Liverpool.

jesus_thats_gre

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I still see Martin Kelly as a centre back and a talented footballing centre back at that. He would also give us something we've not had in a long time, real pace there. I think we need a proper left back and to shift Johnson back to the right. A pairing of Kelly and Agger has a nice balance to it.

I was going to reply to Fla myself. Realistically speaking, we need to be looking at long term replacements for Carra and the Greek.

Neither are immediate concerns but it would make sense starting the process this summer.

Kelly could potentially offer us what we need to replace one of them. Would it be too much to hope that we can replace both through promoting from within? I suspect that it is unlikely (possibly though hopefully) so we might need to shell out a few quid for one CB.

God knows how Wilson and Ayala will work out?

Either way, I suspect that Steve Clarke, Kenny and the scouts will be able to get the best out of what we have in the reserves or identify a worthwhile target if need be.

Defo need a left back though.

Lawrence1895

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Word on the grapevine is that Taiwo has signed a pre contract agreement with Benfica. Which allows them to sell Contreau to Real.

Hummels I know nothing about. However, Kelly has so many attributes that could make him a great centre back. Johnson has improved greatly since Clarke arrived so switching him back to right back makes sense. Kelly can act as cover when needed.

Mats Hummels is one of the key defenders with Borussia Dortmund. He was on loan from Bayern Munich, but I can't see him leaving Dortmund, he is too much settled down there now.

Melion

Would anyone like to see Insua given a run next season?

Kess73

stumpypeeps wrote: »

Word on the grapevine is that Taiwo has signed a pre contract agreement with Benfica. Which allows them to sell Contreau to Real.

Hummels I know nothing about. However, Kelly has so many attributes that could make him a great centre back. Johnson has improved greatly since Clarke arrived so switching him back to right back makes sense. Kelly can act as cover when needed.

That's a shame if true about Taiwo. I rate him quite highly, and he is pretty handy cover for CB as well. Guess we will just have to pay out big money to get me Cissoko then.


Kelly I cannot disagree with you on at all in terms of his attributes in relation to playing at CB, but the same arguements could be made about him having potentially everything a class RB needs as well.

Hummels I have watched a fair bit over the last couple of seasons along with Subotic, and as impressive as Kelly has been, Hummels and Subotic have always looked a few levels above him in every department.

That is no knock on Kelly though, just a reflection on how impressed I have been with both Hummels and Subotic.

whatawaster

Melion wrote: »

Would anyone like to see Insua given a run next season?

Not me.

He doesn't seem to have developed this season, and he was short on the quality needed last year.
We will definitely be signing a new LB, and i'm sure Aurelio and Johnson will be hanging around as backup

Kess73

Melion wrote: »

Would anyone like to see Insua given a run next season?

His contract runs out this June. He is then a free agent.

Lawrence1895

Kess73 wrote: »

That's a shame if true about Taiwo. I rate him quite highly, and he is pretty handy cover for CB as well. Guess we will just have to pay out big money to get me Cissoko then.


Kelly I cannot disagree with you on at all in terms of his attributes in relation to playing at CB, but the same arguements could be made about him having potentially everything a class RB needs as well.

Hummels I have watched a fair bit over the last couple of seasons along with Subotic, and as impressive as Kelly has been, Hummels and Subotic have always looked a few levels above him in every department.

That is no knock on Kelly though, just a reflection on how impressed I have been with both Hummels and Subotic.

That's why Borussia Dortmund will do everything not to separate Subotic and Hummels

flahavaj

Ye were linked with Baines today in some sh*tty tabloid. Would be an amazing signing for ye. I could see Carroll getting a lot of joy from his crossing.

Kess73

whatawaster wrote: »

Not me.

He doesn't seem to have developed this season, and he was short on the quality needed last year.
We will definitely be signing a new LB, and i'm sure Aurelio and Johnson will be hanging around as backup

How could Insua have developed this season?

We loaned him out, and then he fell foul of Hagi's policy of not wanting loan players in his first team when Hagi came in as the Gala manager at the end of October.

Fair enough if you don't rate the kid, but to say that he has not improved when he cannot play is a bit harsh.

Kess73

Lars1916 wrote: »

That's why Borussia Dortmund will do everything not to separate Subotic and Hummels

Oh it would take big money to get them, and I agree that Dortmund would not want to split them up.

But if Liverpool want to get top class defenders, then they are the type of players that Liverpool have to try and get.

whatawaster

Kess73 wrote: »

How could Insua have developed this season?

We loaned him out, and then he fell foul of Hagi's policy of not wanting loan players in his first team when Hagi came in as the Gala manager at the end of October.

Fair enough if you don't rate the kid, but to say that he has not improved when he cannot play is a bit harsh.

I'm not saying he should have developed. I'm saying he hasn't.

Therefore we shouldn't bring him back next season expecting him to have come on at all

Kess73

whatawaster wrote: »

I'm not saying he should have developed. I'm saying he hasn't.

Therefore we shouldn't bring him back next season expecting him to have come on at all

Again how could he have developed? He, along with the other loan players at Gala, fell foul of Hagi's policy and have gotten no game time since Hagi came in.

How do you develop without games?

And bringing him back next season is not an option any way as he will be a free agent come June.

We should have sold him last summer if he was not wanted and not wasted a year of the kid's career. Or just kept him as cover for his final year and not wasted money on dross like Konchesky.

Melion

Insua got a raw deal last year, he was a young lad throw in at the deep end and his weakness were found out and most teams started to attack him and got success from it. If he had been phased into the team like Kelly has been then i think we would have a potentially very very good Left back at the club.

Id like to see him come back as a backup to a new signing, more reliable than Aurelio anyway.

whatawaster

Kess73 wrote: »

Again how could he have developed? He, along with the other loan players at Gala, fell foul of Hagi's policy and have gotten no game time since Hagi came in.

How do you develop without games?

And bringing him back next season is not an option any way as he will be a free agent come June.

We should have sold him last summer if he was not wanted and not wasted a year of the kid's career. Or just kept him as cover for his final year and not wasted money on dross like Konchesky.

I'm not saying he could have developed. I'm saying he hasn't. (though he has played 12 times for them this season)

I'm not interested in why (I know why - he hasn't been playing) - I just stated one of my reasons for not wanting him back is that he was not good enough when he left and he hasn't played enough when he's been away to have developed enough to make him a viable option at LB for us.

Sir Gallagher

Melion wrote: »

Insua got a raw deal last year, he was a young lad throw in at the deep end and his weakness were found out and most teams started to attack him and got success from it. If he had been phased into the team like Kelly has been then i think we would have a potentially very very good Left back at the club.

Id like to see him come back as a backup to a new signing, more reliable than Aurelio anyway.

Kelly has been thrown into the team and handled it perfectly. How can you say, "Insua should be given a run" next season when he wasn't good enough last season and hasn't got any game time this year?

whatawaster

Melion wrote: »

Insua got a raw deal last year, he was a young lad throw in at the deep end and his weakness were found out and most teams started to attack him and got success from it. If he had been phased into the team like Kelly has been then i think we would have a potentially very very good Left back at the club.

Id like to see him come back as a backup to a new signing, more reliable than Aurelio anyway.

Yeah, if things had worked out differently for him he might have been a good player for us in the future. It's the same with so many young players though. So much has to go right for them to be a success. Even Kelly might have been seriously held back if Hodgson had got his way and signed Luke Young. That would have been a disaster.

Look at Pacheco - how much of his development have the club wasted by not loaning him out or selling him. He could have 50 first team appearances by now, in a couple of loan spells. We'd know an awful lot more about him as a player

Melion

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Kelly has been thrown into the team and handled it perfectly. How can you say, "Insua should be given a run" next season when he wasn't good enough last season and hasn't got any game time this year?

How many games has Kelly played this season, Insua played over 40 games last season which was a bit much considering he was in the reserves the year before.

Kess73

whatawaster wrote: »

I'm not saying he could have developed. I'm saying he hasn't. (though he has played 12 times for them this season)

I'm not interested in why (I know why - he hasn't been playing) - I just stated one of my reasons for not wanting him back is that he was not good enough when he left and he hasn't played enough when he's been away to have developed enough to make him a viable option at LB for us.

I think people have been far too short sighted with Insua.

He never played first team football before moving to Liverpool.

He never played reserve level football before moving to Liverpool.

All he had played before moving to Liverpool was under 17s football at Boca and 2 u20s games for Argentina.

So all of his learning about the game at senior level was done at Liverpool.

The 09/10 season where he got dumped in at the deep end was too much for such an inexperienced young player, especially when he had the likes of Gerrard playing even worse stuff than him, so he had no help from the senior pros around him.


The season before that he got 10 run outs in the league and he looked pretty decent.

So basically you have written off a player based on his performances at 20 years of age playing in a team where even the so called top players were playing rubbish.

You say he would not be a viable option for us. Well I think that he would have been a more viable option than Konchesky has been this season, and he would have been a more viable option as cover than Aurelio has been seeing as Aurelio has spent more time out injured again this season than he has spent fit.

The club wasted money by bringing back Aurelio (months after he left the club on a free) and on buying Konchesky, when we could have just kept the much lower earning Insua as basic cover for the LB slot.

Nobody is arguing that he should be offered a new contract to tempt him back next summer, I am simply saying that I think the kid got a raw deal when here and he was replaced by a crock and a rubbish player this season.

Kess73

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Kelly has been thrown into the team and handled it perfectly. How can you say, "Insua should be given a run" next season when he wasn't good enough last season and hasn't got any game time this year?

Yeah but his lack of game time is not based on form. He got 9 league games and three cups games under Rijkaard and got good reviews in those games. Hagi came in at the end of October and brought in a no loan players in the first team squad policy.


And I just remembered that this is the match thread and not the superthread.

whatawaster

Kess73 wrote: »

So basically you have written off a player based on his performances at 20 years of age playing in a team where even the so called top players were playing rubbish.

You say he would not be a viable option for us. Well I think that he would have been a more viable option than Konchesky has been this season, and he would have been a more viable option as cover than Aurelio has been seeing as Aurelio has spent more time out injured again this season than he has spent fit.

The club wasted money by bringing back Aurelio (months after he left the club on a free) and on buying Konchesky, when we could have just kept the much lower earning Insua as basic cover for the LB slot.

Nobody is arguing that he should be offered a new contract to tempt him back next summer, I am simply saying that I think the kid got a raw deal when here and he was replaced by a crock and a rubbish player this season.

I've written off his Liverpool career. I think he should have been held onto last summer. But he has ability and i'm sure he can still make it at a high level.

I'm sure you'll find posts from me if you look back saying that we should have kept Insua as backup left back. I was actually a bit of a fan of his.
I don't think the club handled his development brilliantly, but at the same time, I know the club is going to splash out on a first choice left back in the summer. I'm 100% certain they will. With Johnson and Aurelio still at the club and with Robinson coming along nicely in the reserves, I think it would be pointless bringing him back, given that we have no evidence that he has improved at all this year (not his fault, but hard to argue with)

whatawaster

Kess73 wrote: »

Yeah but his lack of game time is not based on form. He got 9 league games and three cups games under Rijkaard and got good reviews in those games. Hagi came in at the end of October and brought in a no loan players in the first team squad policy.

And he is now a registered Liverpool player again. If Kenny wanted to use him, he could.

Kess73

whatawaster wrote: »

I've written off his Liverpool career. I think he should have been held onto last summer. But he has ability and i'm sure he can still make it at a high level.

I'm sure you'll find posts from me if you look back saying that we should have kept Insua as backup left back. I was actually a bit of a fan of his.
I don't think the club handled his development brilliantly, but at the same time, I know the club is going to splash out on a first choice left back in the summer. I'm 100% certain they will. With Johnson and Aurelio still at the club and with Robinson coming along nicely in the reserves, I think it would be pointless bringing him back, given that we have no evidence that he has improved at all this year (not his fault, but hard to argue with)

Not once have I said we should to re-sign him next summer, yet you keep replying to me with that.

Kess73

whatawaster wrote: »

And he is now a registered Liverpool player again. If Kenny wanted to use him, he could.

Yes he has been registered but he still technically remains a Gala player as they are still paying his wages. We would have break the loan deal and pay them a fee to get our own player back if we wanted to play him.

We are hardly going to pay to bring back a player that gets to walk away for free in three months time.

whatawaster

Kess73 wrote: »

Not once have I said we should to re-sign him next summer, yet you keep replying to me with that.

I never said you did.

In fact, i'm not sure what you're arguing with me about.

But the initial question I was addressing was whether or not Insua should be given another go at LB next year.

Kess73

whatawaster wrote: »

I never said you did.

In fact, i'm not sure what you're arguing with me about.

But the initial question I was addressing was whether or not Insua should be given another go at LB next year.

Right that's it. :mad:


Chose your weapon sir. Pistols, blades or fish.

We duel at dawn.

whatawaster

Kess73 wrote: »

Right that's it. :mad:


Chose your weapon sir. Pistols, blades or fish.

We duel at dawn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2VcM5sDyg0

rossie1977

liverpool Pl:10 W:6 D:2 L:2 F:17 A:9: Pts: 20

best record in entire division last 10 games, thats incredible for a team that was in the bottom 2 under hodgson in october

Kess73

rossie1977 wrote: »

liverpool Pl:10 W:6 D:2 L:2 F:17 A:9: Pts: 20

best record in entire division last 10 games, thats incredible for a team that was in the bottom 2 under hodgson in october

The team under Kenny is now only 5 points short of what the team under Hodgson managed to get in 20 games.

Shocking how poor the points return was under Hodgson.

ShamoBuc

Kess73 wrote: »

The team under Kenny is now only 5 points short of what the team under Hodgson managed to get in 20 games.

Shocking how poor the points return was under Hodgson.

I've banished that period and refuse to revisit..... shudders.

noodler

Delighted about the result today.

Everytime I look at the table I can't help looking at fourth and working out the unlikely scenarios necessary to get us there.

Today we may have gotten lucky for the goal but we never looked back. SUarez was excellent, Kuyt tracked back like a maniac and Carroll (despite not being match fit) has a massive influence with his aerial ability alone.

Sunderland can complain about the penalty but not about the result imo.


PS: Awful goalkeeping for the Suarez goal - world class goal me arse.

Revolution9

How much does Agger improve our defence? Immense player when fit.

Spearing was surprisingly good. Be interesting to see who gets more time between Jay and Shelvey when/if he comes back soon.

Glen Johnson's best run of games defensively in a Red shirt? Has rarely put a foot wrong out on that left side for us.

jesus_thats_gre

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

Kelly has been thrown into the team and handled it perfectly. How can you say, "Insua should be given a run" next season when he wasn't good enough last season and hasn't got any game time this year?

Insua did for the majority of the first 6 months too. He was used too much, too soon.

jesus_thats_gre

Revolution9 wrote: »

Glen Johnson's best run of games defensively in a Red shirt? Has rarely put a foot wrong out on that left side for us.

It is no coincidence that the shift has happened at the same time as Kenny as taken over.

One of the main criticisms of Hodgsons style of management was his unwillingness to press high up and his willingness to allow the opposition to play football.

Johnson is an attacking wingback who was bought for his attacking potential. He was always going to be, as was the remainder of our backline, exposed when the opposition were camped outside our box.

noodler

All I'll say is I think people are bending over backwards to excuse Insua's performances in a red shirt.

I'd still take him back now though

Paully D

noodler wrote: »

Sunderland can complain about the penalty but not about the result imo.

In fairness Sunderland were looked very, very comfortable until that awful decision.

Goals change games and it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that Sunderland would have got something from the game if that penalty hadn't been given.

tonycascarino

Hey Paully, what's the latest re Anton Ferdinand & Ireland as a matter of interest.

noodler

Paully D wrote: »

In fairness Sunderland were looked very, very comfortable until that awful decision.

Goals change games and it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that Sunderland would have got something from the game if that penalty hadn't been given.

I wouldn't say awful decision now - I couldn't tell until the 2nd replay to be fair. No sympathy for Mensah considering the cynical nature of both his fouls.

Goalscoring opportunity by the way?

If another team comes to Anfield, converts an incorrectly awarded penalty and subsequently bosses the game for the remaining hour it would be a little unrealistic of me to complain that they didn't deserve it.

K-9

noodler wrote: »

All I'll say is I think people are bending over backwards to excuse Insua's performances in a red shirt.

I'd still take him back now though

You also had him and Johnson as regular FB's.

I'm not bothered either way but him and Agger would do as cover there when we get a good LB.

Paully D

tonycascarino wrote: »

Hey Paully, what's the latest re Anton Ferdinand & Ireland as a matter of interest.

Haven't heard anything else mate. AFAIK it's still the same - he was approached and is very interested. I'll update the thread if I hear anything else

monkey9

Paully D wrote: »

In fairness Sunderland were looked very, very comfortable until that awful decision.

Goals change games and it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that Sunderland would have got something from the game if that penalty hadn't been given.

I agree. I actually think Sunderland were the better team up to that point and looked the more likely to score.

In regards to the decision, i wouldn't really blame the lino. I know as a Sunderland fan, you're gonna be disappointed about it. But in real time, it did look like it was in the box.

It happened so fast and the linesman had made the decision that he felt it was inside the area. He then needs to tell the ref and fair play to the ref for using his assistant who had a better view.

It's just unfortunate for Sunderland that the lino got it wrong on this occasion.

Once we scored, Sunderland's confidence seemed to drain and our midfield got on the ball more than they had previously and after that, we always looked comfortable.