Are we too strict in applying and adhering to rules?

liah

Compared to the European Union and the U.S., Portugal's drug use numbers are impressive. Following decriminalization, Portugal had the lowest rate of lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 in the E.U.: 10%. The most comparable figure in America is in people over 12: 39.8%. Proportionally, more Americans have used cocaine than Portuguese have used marijuana.
The Cato paper reports that between 2001 and 2006 in Portugal, rates of lifetime use of any illegal drug among seventh through ninth graders fell from 14.1% to 10.6%; drug use in older teens also declined. Lifetime heroin use among 16-to-18-year-olds fell from 2.5% to 1.8% (although there was a slight increase in marijuana use in that age group). New HIV infections in drug users fell by 17% between 1999 and 2003, and deaths related to heroin and similar drugs were cut by more than half. In addition, the number of people on methadone and buprenorphine treatment for drug addiction rose to 14,877 from 6,040, after decriminalization, and money saved on enforcement allowed for increased funding of drug-free treatment as well.

http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html#ixzz1HRcLvNuV

Earthhorse

liah wrote: »

Critical thinking and learning to be personally responsible for your actions goes out the window when you know the government makes the final decision in everything you do. The more responsibility you take away from people the more helpless, unintelligent and reliant on the government/court they become. That can be quite dangerous, in an Orwellian sort of way.

I think you have a rather more optimistic view of human nature than I do. governments are, at best, marginally involved in teaching or encouraging perosnal responsibility in their citizens. We all grew up in the same society with the same laws (well, okay, all Irish people did, all Canadians did etc.) yet some take personal responsibility very seriously and others don't. This is really down to good parenting in my opinion, almost exclusively down to it in fact.

There's no doubt that governments can incentive the wrong things at times e.g. bailing out bad investors when they should really be held to book for their poor investment choice, but I don't think they can significantly alter a person's philosophy in these matters.

Permabear

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liah

Earthhorse wrote: »

I think you have a rather more optimistic view of human nature than I do. governments are, at best, marginally involved in teaching or encouraging perosnal responsibility in their citizens. We all grew up in the same society with the same laws (well, okay, all Irish people did, all Canadians did etc.) yet some take personal responsibility very seriously and others don't. This is really down to good parenting in my opinion, almost exclusively down to it in fact.

There's no doubt that governments can incentive the wrong things at times e.g. bailing out bad investors when they should really be held to book for their poor investment choice, but I don't think they can significantly alter a person's philosophy in these matters.

Would you not agree that education plays an incredibly large role in these things, though? Parenting only goes so far, schools can do an awful lot to influence a child, too. I'm not saying the effects would be immediate, it would take a generation or two to play out as the kids under the new, empirical evidence/critical thinking-driven education come of age.

Again, not that they're quite the same, but compare abstinence-only education statistics to incredibly informative and unbiased sex education statistics. There's a marked difference. Of course individuality plays a part to some degree, insofar that there will always be differences between people, but it's hard to argue that education cannot influence decision-making on a majority scale.

Earthhorse

Not really; in the sense that I went to the same school and through the same education as people who are now career criminals. I accept there is potential for a brilliant educaiton system to be transformative but I don't really know of many examples in the world. Sorry I don't have time to expand on that right now, my net access is very intermittent at the moment.

liah

Earthhorse wrote: »

Not really; in the sense that I went to the same school and through the same education as people who are now career criminals. I accept there is potential for a brilliant educaiton system to be transformative but I don't really know of many examples in the world. Sorry I don't have time to expand on that right now, my net access is very intermittent at the moment.

Well, I'm just looking at things on a very broad scale, using things like religion dying in the west, superstitious beliefs basically eradicated in the west, the failure of abstinence-only education, drinking and driving becoming rarer, hitting/spanking/physical reprimanding of children has gone out of fashion, etc. to contrast against.
I would say all these things are directly related to education, or lack thereof (depending on which topic). After awhile, it becomes increasingly hard to argue with the facts. And the real facts on drugs are much different to the ones we grew up with, and the countries that acknowledge this (Portugal in the above example) seem to be noting decreases in drug-related crime and drug use and increases in people entering voluntary rehabilitation.

If the playout is generational, drug related crime and drug use should decrease with better education: education also influences parenting styles.

There will always be crime, there will always be criminals. That just can't be helped. It's human nature. They're the type who were going to end up like that no matter what they were taught, but they're a much smaller percentage of the population than you seem to think. People are largely malleable, even after they leave their family, and are capable of a great deal of change. A lot of people fall into crime because they don't know any better, or have no other options, which is why I think education (so they know better) and rehabilitation (have more options) are key.

Earthhorse

liah wrote: »

I would say all these things are directly related to education, or lack thereof (depending on which topic). After awhile, it becomes increasingly hard to argue with the facts. And the real facts on drugs are much different to the ones we grew up with, and the countries that acknowledge this (Portugal in the above example) seem to be noting decreases in drug-related crime and drug use and increases in people entering voluntary rehabilitation.

But where are people getting the real facts on drugs? Not from the education system surely. So things changed in Portugal despite the eduction system not because of it.

There will always be crime, there will always be criminals. That just can't be helped. It's human nature. They're the type who were going to end up like that no matter what they were taught, but they're a much smaller percentage of the population than you seem to think.

It's not about how many or how few but rather that the same approximate percentage of people who refuse to take personal responsibility will show up in every generation. This is true regardless of what the education system tries to instill in them in my opinion.

People are largely malleable, even after they leave their family, and are capable of a great deal of change. A lot of people fall into crime because they don't know any better, or have no other options, which is why I think education (so they know better) and rehabilitation (have more options) are key.

People are capable of a great deal of change in adulthood but without a huge incentive to do so most people's adult personality is formed in early adulthood and remains fairly constant. Although I agree education and rehabilitation are important I think there's a huge limit to what they can do. Like I say, I shared classes with people who are now career criminals; they received the same education as I did but did not come from an environment where this was seen as important. You can teach people whatever you want, that doesn't mean they'll learn a thing.

liah

Earthhorse wrote: »

But where are people getting the real facts on drugs? Not from the education system surely. So things changed in Portugal despite the eduction system not because of it.

Education isn't exactly just through school. But still, if they were taught drug responsibility and the proper facts in school, theoretically the statistics should be even better.

It's not about how many or how few but rather that the same approximate percentage of people who refuse to take personal responsibility will show up in every generation. This is true regardless of what the education system tries to instill in them in my opinion.

Yes, I've stated repeatedly that there will always be some amount of criminals, because that's human nature. That doesn't mean that a focus on education and rehabilitation won't make a dent at all in those numbers. Are you trying to say it wouldn't work at all whatsoever? I don't understand why you keep bringing that up-- I already acknowledged repeatedly that of course there will always be some amount of people like that. I'm just saying that amount can be lessened.

People are capable of a great deal of change in adulthood but without a huge incentive to do so most people's adult personality is formed in early adulthood and remains fairly constant. Although I agree education and rehabilitation are important I think there's a huge limit to what they can do. Like I say, I shared classes with people who are now career criminals; they received the same education as I did but did not come from an environment where this was seen as important. You can teach people whatever you want, that doesn't mean they'll learn a thing.

I don't think the limit is nearly as huge as you think it is. I think what it comes down to is quality of education, quality of teachers, quality of counselling, and quality of time spent with students that has the potential to provoke great change.

Again, compare it to the abstinence-only vs. solid sex ed like I brought up earlier. Education has the capability to change people's habits and has the ability to encourage responsibility. Just look at the statistics.

Earthhorse

liah wrote: »

Education isn't exactly just through school. But still, if they were taught drug responsibility and the proper facts in school, theoretically the statistics should be even better.

No, but State Education is, and that's what we're talking about here, aren't we? Government's role in encouraging personal responsibility?

Are you trying to say it wouldn't work at all whatsoever?

Without a revolution in our education system, yes. Or that it's impact would be negligible.

I don't think the limit is nearly as huge as you think it is. I think what it comes down to is quality of education, quality of teachers, quality of counselling, and quality of time spent with students that has the potential to provoke great change.

The quality of the students is the big factor missing here. This isn't to be dismissive of all you're saying but that it does present a limiting factor. I guess this is something we'll just have to agree to disagree on.

dr.fuzzenstein

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And these days doing nixers, avoid any tax if at all possible, fill up the car with the wrong color diesel, smoking in the back room of the pub, climbing up the pylon and stealing electricity with a hook made from a coathanger (DON'T! ONLY JOKING!), I might possibly draw the line at folk dancing and eating babies...
But there is a consideration here, many people have lost one or both incomes or part thereof, the mortgage still needs to be paid, food still needs to be bought and saving money will only get you so far.
Many people who don't enjoy this sort of thing nevertheless have to do it anyway because no one likes living in the street and might prefer to just do an honest day's work and live a blameless life.
When I came here first in '93 you had to get by by any means possible and for many it's heading that way again.
Except smoking and drinking in the backroom of the pub after closing time. It's purely a "two finger" thing.

Focalbhach

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Funny you mention rubbish: I also took a copy of the Irish Times out of a recycling bin last Tuesday. Newspaper companies are making nothing out of me!

Jeez man, at least go to their website and click on a few ads!