Pro-Treaty or Anti-Treaty?

hacx

Would you have supported the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921?

MagicMarker

edit: Stupid op editing his post.

policarp

hacx wrote: »

Would you have supported the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921?

Don't know what I would have done at that time, but Dev shafted Michael Collins.

Daegerty

hacx wrote: »

Would you have supported the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1921?

Anti

If it wasn't for that Anglo Irish Bank wouldn't have existed to ruin us today

yeahimhere

Even though we have the benefit of hindsight now, I still would've been pro-treaty.

A bird in the hand...and all that.

barbarians

Daegerty wrote: »

Anti

If it wasn't for that Anglo Irish Bank wouldn't have existed to ruin us today

That's possibly the most stupid 'if' I've ever come across.

Please tell me you're joking.

OutlawPete

Anti ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9ayLHPLROg

Savage Tyrant

100% Anti-Treaty.....
The acceptance of that treaty was an insult to the soldiers who gave their lives during the rising of 1916 and in every other insurrection in the name of Irish freedom.

WoollyRedHat

I think I'd just sit on the fence.

admiralofthefleet

what way would you vote op?

i would have went with the pro treaty brigade because dev wasnt interested in irelands interests, only his own

Daegerty

barbarians wrote: »

That's possibly the most stupid 'if' I've ever come across.

Please tell me you're joking.

Anglo Irish Treaty gives rise to Anglo Irish Bank. Tbh it would be worth taking out every other "Anglo Irish" thing if it would stop that bank from ever existing

bitter

It was treason to the people in the 6 counties and the men in the 26 who fought & died for a republic. Collins was bought off by the British Government. A scumbag of the highest order :mad:

hacx

what way would you vote op?

i would have went with the pro treaty brigade because dev wasnt interested in irelands interests, only his own

Pro-treaty.
Dev knew all too well what was on the cards and only sent Collins and co. as a scapegoat to "bring back the bad news". The real kick in the balls came when Dev came to power and seeminly forgot all of his earlier qualms about The Oath of Alleigence. Granted he did end up winning the Republic, but he could only do it due to the "stepping stone" of the treaty.

Sergeant

OutlawPete wrote: »

Anti ..

DeV was a snake.

OutlawPete

bitter wrote: »

Collins was bought off by the British Government. A scumbag of the highest order :mad:

Well, he didn't sign it lightly and had other plans.

"Freedom to get freedom" was the line and let's not forget the:

"I've signed my own death warrant"

It's a tough one though as although I don't agree with him signing it (DeV should have went in his place anyway) there is quite a bit of evidence that Collins (had he not been assassinated) would have invaded NI.

Would he have been successful? Guess we'll never know.

Daegerty

OutlawPete wrote: »

Anti ..

DeV was a snake.

At least he got his comeuppance. Used to be a president, now he merely owns a silly ad-supported website people talk sh1te on

KeithAFC

Whats wrong with it..

OutlawPete

KeithAFC wrote: »

Whats wrong with it..

Think you forgot the word "was" there mate.

dotsman

Daegerty wrote: »

Anglo Irish Treaty gives rise to Anglo Irish Bank. Tbh it would be worth taking out every other "Anglo Irish" thing if it would stop that bank from ever existing

If anti treaty had won, we would be singing God Save The Queen today. Except there would be less of us around now.

stovelid

Pro.

Daegerty

dotsman wrote: »

If anti treaty had won, we would be singing God Save The Queen today. Except there would be less of us around now.

At least we'd still be singing?

Hande hoche!

Pro treaty Mr. Neeson seems far more trust worthy. Although would go with Rickman if it involved an elaborate heist.

Notorious97

"To me the task is a loathsome one. I go, I go in the spirit of a soldier who acts against his best judgement at the orders of his superior." - Michael Collins on being sent to the Treaty negotiations by De Valera.

Michael Collins was in my opinion the greatest we have ever had, i have alot of favourite figures in Irish history, and he always tops the poll for me. I am republican, i support fully a united Ireland, i hate the idea of partition, yet i am smart enough to see that the treaty was the best we were ever going to get from Britain and Dev knew this. Dev i am not a fan of whatsoever, i think what he done was cowardly, and i don’t care that he declared a republic over 20 years later, If Collins had lived who knows what could have been, i dare say it i think we would either have a united Ireland or be a hell of a lot closer.

If anybody actually takes time to read Collins own words on the partition, he hated the idea of it, to quote him on the treaty ‘in my opinion it gives us freedom, not the freedom that all nations desire, but the freedom to achieve it’

"When you have sweated, toiled, had mad dreams, hopeless nightmares, you find yourself in London's streets, cold and dank in the night air. Think - what have I got for Ireland? Something which she has wanted these past 700 years. Will anyone be satisfied with the bargain? Will anyone? I tell you this -early this morning I signed my own death warrant. I though at the time how odd, how ridiculous -a bullet might just as well have done the job 5 years ago." -Michael Collins in a letter to John O'Kane after the Treaty.

I would have followed him with the pro treaty side, simply because i would have believed in his ability for change, even reading his words today i still cannot believe how much Ireland lost out when that man died. Alot of the volunteers followed him for the same reasons, and when he died some of them realised the pro treaty government was not as interested in NI as he had been, without getting too bogged down in history on this thread.

I just put it down to i would have followed Michael Collins wherever, he always spoke highly of the leaders of 1916 so i know he wasn’t bought by the British, and saw the treaty as ‘a stepping stone’. Churchill said of Collins signing the treaty ‘Michael Collins rose looking as though he were going to shoot someone, preferably himself. In all my life i have never seen so much pain and suffering in restraint’

ejmaztec

It would have been a lot better if De Valera and all of the bishops got wiped out. Between them, they fucked up big time since independence and turned a good idea into a sh1t-awful mess.

Wolfe Tone

Anti.

Accepting the treaty was a crass betrayal of what so many had fought and died for. Getting British guns and turning them on your fellow Irish men? FFS.

Dyr

If the voters back then had known how things were going to play out over the following 20 years then the treaty would never have passed IMO. So I'm agin it. Agin it, I say

mike65

Can't wait for the "1798 rebellion - was calling in the French wise?" thread.

bigwormbundoran

Anti all the way, all this "if he wasnt assassinated blah di blah" shíte does my head in, he was and all he left behind was a divided nation and a snake in the grass like Dev to **** this country over for years to come.

dulpit

I'd have been pro-treaty. (wearing my blueshirt today actually :P) although I would have wanted the boundary commission to do their job, and not pussy out when push came to shove...

On Dev being a snake, is this based on historical facts or is it more based on Alan Rickman's portrayal in Michael Collins? I was listening to the History Show on RTÉ Radio a few months back, and they were saying that a lot of people's opinions have been altered by that film...

FatBoyKriss

:P

Notorious97

dulpit wrote: »

I'd have been pro-treaty. (wearing my blueshirt today actually :P) although I would have wanted the boundary commission to do their job, and not pussy out when push came to shove...

On Dev being a snake, is this based on historical facts or is it more based on Alan Rickman's portrayal in Michael Collins? I was listening to the History Show on RTÉ Radio a few months back, and they were saying that a lot of people's opinions have been altered by that film...

Id be pro treaty because of Collins, i dont really have much to say about the pro treaty government once he had died. My opinion of Dev is based on what i have read in books, and from some of Collins quotes on the situation. I think Dev knew exactly what would happen if he went over, and sent Collins as the scape goat.

Fratton Fred

Was the civil war fought because the treaty allowed for partition, or was it because of the oath?

Did Dev want a united Ireland, or was he quite happy to have all the prods out of the way?

If the latter, why was he anti treaty and was the civil war just a power struggle?

Lastly, what's a tracker mortgage?

stovelid

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Getting British guns and turning them on your fellow Irish men? FFS.

True.

If an Irishman is going to blow away another Irishman, at least confine it to Gardai during robberies.

Fratton Fred

stovelid wrote: »

True.

If an Irishman is going to blow away another Irishman, at least confine it to Gardai during bank robberies.

Using Libyan supplied guns.

mike65

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Using Libyan supplied guns.

Fratton Fred - Keeping it topical!

I thought everyone had got past civil war politics. Its been many years since some FF gob****e last threw an accusation about '22 across the floor of the Dail.

Wolfe Tone

mike65 wrote: »

Can't wait for the "1798 rebellion - was calling in the French wise?" thread.

I'll have something to say on that! :P

pragmatic1

Pro-treaty. There was no other option. The Brits could have really went in and slaughtered us if they wanted.

S. Goodspeed

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Anti.

Accepting the treaty was a crass betrayal of what so many had fought and died for. Getting British guns and turning them on your fellow Irish men? FFS.

Eh the treaty was voted on and accepted by the majority of the people in this country. Its called democracy and was infact what the some many irish people died for over the years. The civil war, the single most shameful occurence in our history, was started by Dev others who refused to accept the will of the people. A minority trying to enforce their beliefs on others, theres are plenty of similiar groups today, most notably Al Qaeda.

What do people actually think would have happened if the treaty wasnt signed?

Most likely scenario, the Brits would have sent more troops over resulting in more bloodshed and tragedy. Michael Collins knew better than anyone the capability of his operations in defeating the British. If he thought it was unrealistic to expect more then I for one believe him.

Absolute best case (and implausible) scenario the Brits would have offered us the 32 counties. Then what? A Unionist campaign of violence and bombing which would have been reciprocated by repulican violence. Sound familiar?

The majority of people in the 6 counties do not wish to be part of a united Ireland, accept it and please move on for everyones sake.

Dyr

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Pro-treaty. There was no other option. The Brits could have really went in and slaughtered us if they wanted.

People say that yet the anti treaty forces held on for almost a year against superior numbers and equipment in a civil war so i don't buy that the IRA were on the verge of defeat before the treaty was signed. I think people were just tired of the fighting and many of the pro treaty faction were power hungry and wanted the carrot that the british were dangling no matter what

deise go deo

policarp wrote: »

Don't know what I would have done at that time, but Dev shafted Michael Collins.

Well lets see now, Collins agreed to take part in an election based on compromise candidates being chosen and then at the last minute backed out without giving the people time to access the British inspired constution he proposed.

The Free staters opend fire first.


Who shafted who?

ejmaztec

S. Goodspeed wrote: »

Eh the treaty was voted on and accepted by the majority of the people in this country. Its called democracy and was infact what the some many irish people died for over the years. The civil war, the single most shameful occurence in our history, was started by Dev others who refused to accept the will of the people. A minority trying to enforce their beliefs on others, theres are plenty of similiar groups today, most notably Al Qaeda.

What do people actually think would have happened if the treaty wasnt signed?

Most likely scenario, the Brits would have sent more troops over resulting in more bloodshed and tragedy. Michael Collins knew better than anyone the capability of his operations in defeating the British. If he thought it was unrealistic to expect more then I for one believe him.

Absolute best case (and implausible) scenario the Brits would have offered us the 32 counties. Then what? A Unionist campaign of violence and bombing which would have been reciprocated by repulican violence. Sound familiar?

The majority of people in the 6 counties do not wish to be part of a united Ireland, accept it and please move on for everyones sake.

That would have made the Civil War look like a walk in the park, especially if each side was backed up by sympathisers piling in from god knows where just to take part. At a later stage, the British would probably have been forced back in to keep the two sides from each other's throats. One huge bloody mess.

deise go deo

pragmatic1 wrote: »

Pro-treaty. There was no other option. The Brits could have really went in and slaughtered us if they wanted.

Not true, Before the truce the British army were being beaten at almost evert turn, And at that stage the British army, due to its colonial commitments was over streached.

Overstreached to the extent that the British high command were finding it difficult to find Fresh Battilions to replace the ones already in Ireland.

Sure England could have gone on a recuitment drive and expand the army, but British Public Opinion was set against the war, a recuitment drive was not feasible.

The Chief of the Imperial staff was suffering major stress and said in his personal diary that if the war was not won before the end of the year, it could not be won.




Lets look at the IRA side, they were better equiped and more experienced at the time of the truce than they were at any other time since 1916.

The field comander's like Tom Barry in Cork, Ernie O'Mally and George Lennon in Waterford all agree that far from Colaps, Things were going very well for the IRA at the time of the truce, The only issue was shortage of Ammo, But that problem was set to be rectified in the near future with an arms shipment on its way, that did come ashore during the truce.



Loyd George promised imidiate and terrible war, He was blufing, and Collins Blinked.

Mahatma coat

Anti, ther was no need to Sign That treaty at that time.
Still befuddles me how quickly the Irish turned on each other, y'd have thought they'dtake their anger out on the British soldiers remaining in the North

Mahatma coat

And another thing

The French were Feck all use in 1798 Either, Wexford has perfectly fine ports, yet they manage to fail at landin in Kinsale and en up in Mayo:rolleyes:

dvpower

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

100% Anti-Treaty.....
The acceptance of that treaty was an insult to the soldiers who gave their lives during the rising of 1916 and in every other insurrection in the name of Irish freedom.

Didn't the pro treaty side come from the same cadre?

super_furry

Nevermind all that, what about Roy Keane?

Bodhidharma

It still amazes me that whenever people talk about the treaty (and nearly all Irish history actually) how little thought they give to the Unionist side of it. They were and remain a powerful force in that part of the island and would not accept a united Ireland under any circumstances. End of story. People who think that they would have gradually accepted it over time are delusional.

As regards "a terrible and immediate war" I think its pretty clear that the British could have inflicted a lot more damage on the country if they thought it necessary.

I would have been pro-treaty because it offered something which could be built on.

Dravokivich

Anti Treaty, but not due to believing in a 32 County Republic, because I don't...

Ash.J.Williams

bitter wrote: »

It was treason to the people in the 6 counties and the men in the 26 who fought & died for a republic. Collins was bought off by the British Government. A scumbag of the highest order :mad:

not all the people in the 6 counties. Worked out well for a lot of them.

charlemont

The people voted Yes for to the treaty, Yet DeValera said "The majority have no right to do wrong". Id have voted Yes, A country with Collins as leader probably would have done well, its the division that came from the Civil War that helped extinguish the fire and put a dampener on the countrys hopes and that helped the church and the Small Poor Ireland mentality take root.

Dozen Wicked Words

Yeah, I never liked the History and Heritage forum anyway, this topic would never fit in there.

Absolutely no history or heritage in discussion in a Treaty of 1921, and where the F*CK is Atari Jaguar?