Weight Cutting?

mark.leonard

A question for martial artists outside of MMA - what is your perception of weight cutting in ultimate fighting?

Cutting weight for a day-before weigh in is practiced heavily at most levels of MMA in Ireland. I have heard different viewpoints in other arts about it and I am just wondering what the perception is outside of my sport about this practice?

Niall Keane

It depends on how much...
I think it's kinda pathetic if someone is training in martial arts which fundamentally should develop skills to increase your chances at physical fighting, when winning is dependent on losing 15+kg, there's nobody 15kg lighter than me that I would worry about, if I did that I guess I have huge advantages in reach, strength etc. And I didn't set out training to beat up small guys?
In my day my coach Paul Mitchel had us training hard so we weren't carrying extra anyway but then made us fight 2 weight categories above our weight to "prove" the point of tai chi - using Jin or trained force to over come li or brute strength. And we were very successful in that respect.
Then again if everyone is doing it, well perhaps it becomes a level playing field? Ie reach power being equal. So fine then it's useful to test oneself, and that for me is the whole point, tearing my skills, competition was just another training aid to me. And there was satisfaction in winning competitions beating 4-5 guys in a day that outweighed me. I wouldn't feel the same the other way around, in fact I'd find it a bit pointless, you know, to be a bully I might aswell give up martial arts bs just do weights or something.

On the health side, most international fights I did had the weigh in 2-3 days before which allowed for re-hydration. I was always told it was dangerous to take heavy head shots if time wasn't given to recover after weight cutting, not sure about th science of this a it didn't come into play personally.

just-joe

Niall Keane wrote: »

On the health side, most international fights I did had the weigh in 2-3 days before which allowed for re-hydration.

But as you probably know, weighing on the day of is meant to discourage weight cutting. Weight can vary a whole lot in 2 or 3 days, I don't think fighters would end up level if they both had that opportunity. It could come down to how is the most effective at rapidly losing/regaining body weight, and ending up fighting a smaller guy.

I guess as you also say Niall, cos everyone is doing it it becomes a level playing field. There isn't really a way to avoid it, so even though its a shame that people concentrate on it so much instead of just trying to be a better fighter, theres not much you can do..

Peetrik

Its a factor of combat sports that is unavoidable no matter if its the same day or 2-3 beforehand for the weigh in.

I don't like it or enjoy it but I admit that even if everyone else wasn't doing it I still would. For the same reason that Im out in the rain running every morning, eating only fruit & protein shakes for 6-8 weeks, and training twice a day, any advantage that I can get I'll take

mark.leonard

Anyone from Thai or Kickboxing care to weigh in?

Peetrik

I fight thai

danlen

mark.leonard wrote: »

Anyone from Thai or Kickboxing care to weigh in?

Nice pun.

NaoiseC

Peetrik wrote: »

For the same reason that Im out in the rain running every morning, eating only fruit & protein shakes for 6-8 weeks, and training twice a day: I'm on the dole

Fixed (sorry Pat, couldn't resist)


on topic: just another part of the sport if you ask me

willie casey cuts a heap of weight and his opponent last Sat apparently walks around at the fighting weight and is world champ, so plenty of things are more important than cutting weight. everyone plays by the same rules and they can make up their own mind as to what suits them

Joe Wilson

Hi Mark,
There is no doubt that weight cutting has become a big part of fight preparation across MA in general. The notion that there is a "level playing field" if everyone is doing it is probably true, however, some of the extremes a fighter goes to in order to make weight must have some affect on their fight performance, even with a day before weigh in.
This begs the question, if everyone is on a level playing field by cutting loads of weight, why bother?? Wouldn't they be on a level playing field by fighting at a weight division a few kilos higher without going through the hardship of dehydration / starvation?
Obviously titles need to be defended and so on, so not as easy as it sounds.

Some organisations employ a rule that fighters must not exceed a certain weight gain allowance on the day of the fight, so this may discourage the extreme cases of losing and gaining 15 - 20kg on the days before fighting.

Interesting topic.

Joe

Peetrik

@Naoise

Hahaha I perfer to think of it as professional fighter assistance

simon-king

Niall Keane wrote: »

there's nobody 15kg lighter than me that I would worry about

I'm not sure in what context you mean, but Im sure there are plenty of guys that would have +15kg on you that you worry equally as less about.

While not ignoring the ethical debate, or health risks that can be associated with cutting weight; I think it's important not to let the issue negate a fighter's skill set. I think you would find multiple examples of players across the martial arts competition spectrum, who deliberately push up a weight class, as well as those who cut down, for the added challange etc.

From what I can see, cutting weight propperly, takes a serious level of discipline and commitment of effort, which in my opinion would significantly add positively to a fighters' mindset.

I think that the primary focus should be around protecting a fighter's health and wellbeing where the development of rules around cutting weight for competition is concerned.

mark.leonard

Thanks for the comments guys, some good points raised all around.
Its fairly obvious to me that everyone posting 'gets' the whole weight cutting idea.
I wasn't sure, but I had suspicions that some folks in other arts looked at weight cutting as something someone does when they are too lazy to diet, or if they are overweight for the weigh in.

Obviously that is not the case, its a calculated part of fight preparation and everyone on here understands that!

black dragon

All fighters (well most of em) have to battle the scales to make weight at some point or another but its been proven in Boxing that one of the worst things a body can do is to cut too much weight in a short period of time.
Remember, when your'e in good shape anyway, your'e going to lose most of the weight from muscle which can't be good for performance and it also deprives the fighter of important bodily fluids (including to the brain) and is one of the major factors in brain damage over a period of time.
You can probably get away with it for a couple of years but make no mistake, its a time bomb.
Floyd Matweather always walks around no more than 3 to 4 lbs over his actually fighting weight and hes not done too badly.

Raze_them_all

black dragon wrote: »

All fighters (well most of em) have to battle the scales to make weight at some point or another but its been proven in Boxing that one of the worst things a body can do is to cut too much weight in a short period of time.
Remember, when your'e in good shape anyway, your'e going to lose most of the weight from muscle which can't be good for performance and it also deprives the fighter of important bodily fluids (including to the brain) and is one of the major factors in brain damage over a period of time.
You can probably get away with it for a couple of years but make no mistake, its a time bomb.
Floyd Matweather always walks around no more than 3 to 4 lbs over his actually fighting weight and hes not done too badly.

Don't you have to weigh in at a certain weight before your fight and you can only be a certain bit heavier when you step into the ring in boxing? Could be completely wrong just remember hearing that somewhere

Kieran81

when you say mayweather walks around 3 or 4 lbs over the weight he fights at , is that 3 or 4 over what he steps on the scales at or 3 or 4 above what he steps in the ring at come fight time?

black dragon

3 or 4 lbs over what he scales for the fight - in other words he stays in tip top condition

cowzerp

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Don't you have to weigh in at a certain weight before your fight and you can only be a certain bit heavier when you step into the ring in boxing? Could be completely wrong just remember hearing that somewhere

You don't have to be within a certain weight after the weigh in-unless it's been deliberatly put into the contract, Pacqiou done it with De la hoya and De la hoya was really drained in there, actually he does this with most his fights and people don't realise this, some of his titles he won the fighters even had to weigh lighter than the official title weight-all this is aimed at weight draining his opponents.

mark.leonard

black dragon wrote: »

3 or 4 lbs over what he scales for the fight - in other words he stays in tip top condition

I think what you mean is, he stays in tip top condition around his fighting weight.

Matt Hughes was one of the longest serving UFC Champions and was renowned for his cardio, but he always did a savage cut to make weight.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing, fighters cutting weight are not doing so because they are fat and over the fight weight, they are solid and lean, and cutting weight to give them an advantage in the ring the following day.

mark.leonard

black dragon wrote: »

All fighters (well most of em) have to battle the scales to make weight at some point or another but its been proven in Boxing that one of the worst things a body can do is to cut too much weight in a short period of time.

You say its been proven, and I don't doubt it; have there been studies done on this that we could look at? It would be interesting to see some data on the cutting method if they are available.
Its well known in MMA that there are ways of cutting that throw off electrolyte balance too much to restore before fight time and reduce performance, these are the methods likely to leave a fighter in danger that you refer to.

Drawing on the experience of other sports like wrestling, where weight cutting has been practiced heavily for decades, we can learn safe cutting methods that let the fighter be fully re-hydrated before fight time.

black dragon wrote: »

Remember, when you're in good shape anyway, your'e going to lose most of the weight from muscle which can't be good for performance and it also deprives the fighter of important bodily fluids (including to the brain) and is one of the major factors in brain damage over a period of time.

No fighter I know trains right up to the day of the fight, maybe its different in other sports. Overall though I think you are underestimating the body's ability to re-hydrate, if a cut is done correctly the fighter can fully re-hydrate. How big a cut a fighter can do is down to a number of factors like genetics, method and practice. Fighters get better at cutting as they gain in experience, just like any other fight skill.

black dragon wrote: »

You can probably get away with it for a couple of years but make no mistake, its a time bomb.

Again I would like to see data on it, particularly as it affects my sport so directly. For me, anecdote aren't really enough to base decisions on fight preparation, coaches need large samples to analyze to make up their own minds. I would never condone a practice I felt jeopardized fighter safety, nor would I have cut myself if I felt there was risk.

I wouldn't encourage a student of mine to flood his system with diuretics and a strong laxative to make weight; at that point you are heading into suicidal tendencies!
I would condone sweating out some weight prior to the weigh in, a little the first time, and a little more the next until he gets a feel for how much he can cut.

black dragon wrote: »

Floyd Matweather always walks around no more than 3 to 4 lbs over his actually fighting weight and hes not done too badly.

It worked out well for Frankie Edgar vs. BJ Penn also, I don't dispute that fighters can avoid cutting weight and still perform well.
I think weight cutting is a lot like standing up at a seated concert, if someone in front of you does it, you might have to do it too!

garrybergin

I have to say from personal experience it does drain you. In 2000 I cut from 92kg to 81kg to fight (judo), the morning of the comp I was 88kg. Just replaced the electrolites and fluids with Twinlab Ultrafuel - don't know if they even make it any more.

It does really drain you on fight day, not to mention I got a massive headache! Think I had 3 matches that went the distance and I was knackered by the 5th - To coin a phrase from Makikomi " breathing out of my ar*e"

And yes Barry Oglesby, Makikomi and whoever else, it is a very long time since I saw 90kg

Raze_them_all

garrybergin wrote: »

I have to say from personal experience it does drain you. In 2000 I cut from 92kg to 81kg to fight (judo), the morning of the comp I was 88kg. Just replaced the electrolites and fluids with Twinlab Ultrafuel - don't know if they even make it any more.

It does really drain you on fight day, not to mention I got a massive headache! Think I had 3 matches that went the distance and I was knackered by the 5th - To coin a phrase from Makikomi " breathing out of my ar*e"

And yes Barry Oglesby, Makikomi and whoever else, it is a very long time since I saw 90kg

Cut 11 kg's in a day?

garrybergin

3 days !!!

black dragon

I think weight cutting is a lot like standing up at a seated concert, if someone in front of you does it, you might have to do it too!

Mmmm, don't think I'd compare it to standing up at a concert - that won't damage your health (unless someone lobs a bottle at you).
All I'm saying is if you cut too much weight too often its just not good for you.
The bodys natural way of cooling itself is to sweat and if you accelerate that process by too much, it stands to reason that its going to draw fluids from everywhere as you can't get blood from a stone - eventually it could cause problems with your liver, kidneys, brain functions etc.
I certainly wouldn't under estimate the bodys ability to re-hydrate itself as the human body is indeed a wonderful machine but even a high performance sports car will break down if pushed too hard, too often.
You can use all the hy-dration methods you like but it still may leave a fighter weak come fight night even though he may feel fine on the outside.
For now, people are getting away with it short term, but if they constantly make their bodys go against the grain so to speak, do you not agree that something may give somewhere down the line - well I personally won't be a part of it and I've been knocking around the fight for about 35 years now.
I have no objection to making fighters lose a few pounds, expecially for title fights but there are limits to playing with peoples lives.
I think its something that will eventually come out in the wash with MMA fighters if they're not careful as remember, competetive MMA is only around 15 years old. (please forgive me if I'm wrong )

mark.leonard

black dragon wrote: »

mark.leonard wrote:

I think weight cutting is a lot like standing up at a seated concert, if someone in front of you does it, you might have to do it too!

Mmmm, don't think I'd compare it to standing up at a concert - that won't damage your health (unless someone lobs a bottle at you).

MMA is a relatively young sport in its current form (though if you count that pankration was part of the first olympic games you could be forgiven for aging it differently), weight cutting itself has been practiced for much longer however; wrestlers have been cutting more heavily, more often than MMA fighters ever will. The effects there are well documented and the message is - a reasonable weight cut that the fighter's body can support is not harmful. What is reasonable varies by fighter, and each fighter gets the message from his body as to what that is.

If a fighter can't recover from a weight cut in time for fight time, that indicates the de-hydration is too severe, luckily only an idiot cuts so much that it effects his performance so that is self correcting.

In kickboxing at amateur level, and correct away if I am wrong Pete, fighters weigh in same day, so cutting is highly difficult to do without compromising performance. Its not practiced widely if at all, similarly in boxing and thai, again I am open to correction. Fighters in those sports have the most misconceptions about weight cutting, and its where MMA gets most of its flak. I was accosted at a show in Galway a couple years back by a coach alleging cheating by a fighter who was "too big to be a welterweight", that coach wasn't aware of what weight cutting meant, let alone how to practice it, consequently his fighters were going in smaller than their opposition and losing 9 times out of ten.

In short, weight cutting by fighters, guided by a coach experienced in cutting initially, and by their own body's capability later can do so safely with no long term ill-effects.

Niall Keane

consequently his fighters were going in smaller than their opposition and losing 9 times out of ten.

... if everyone's doing it...

have to say extreme cutting feels to me to be on the same page as taking steroids? I really cant see a victory coming from it to be anything but hollow? Now to be clear I don't put it on par with steroids, which signify a clear intent to cheat, and its not like bandaging the fists to become like concrete (something I've come accross a few times) but in a way it is a "work around" of the rules?

now it takes a lot more effort to win otherwise and defeats will be at first frequent, my fighters seldom lose more than 3- 5kg before fights, for some of them it meant a long learning curve in how to deal with bigger and stronger opponents, guess one could say that in itself is dangerous? well if catagories are there for safety and all?

the positives are there to play fair however, one lad I trained had 10 international losses in a row, now the guys he fought were top ranked European fighters. Then slowly I guess, he started paying more attention to moving, not "rolling up the tank" to trade, since then he has fought another 26 international fights and lost one (very dodgy split decision) and is currently ranked 3 in semi-pro in Europe. I could mention a number of others who perhaps had a shorted leaarning curve but have since won various international sanshou titles too.

I guess I wonder had they cut weight to a huge extent and bullied their way to win local / regional events would they ever have been able to cope with good international fighters? Most people seem to like to learn a few tricks and combos, and shuffle up to their opponent to let lose, its a lot more demanding skill wise to be able to move well, it takes serious effort ad a lot of experience to get it right, some people do indeed seem to be born with it, but necessity being the mother of invention, I just dont see a fighter who walks around 15kg + than his opposition ever needing to address such skills?

again, for me the sport was a means to improve the martial art, not an end in itself, so I guess I might have a different focus?

But I certainly understand why fighters cut nowadays, its a balance I guess? dropping a few kg to make a weight where you wont face giants does protect the confidence, and afterall there is no point in having that crushed, and it finishes most fighters to get totally anhilated.... well except those who go on to become "great" fighters.

black dragon

Amatuer kickboxers weigh in several hours before competition on the same day yes, as do most amatuer boxers, and amatuer thaiboxers.
For International bouts or title fights or Professional fights however they usually weigh in the day before and the weigh ins are overseen by experienced officials from both sides and not recorded on a mobile phone somewhere up the country.
In amatuer championships such as the WAKOS fighters must weigh in every day of the competition so they can't spiral their weight and therefore all fighters are relatively equal come fight time.
I really don't understand how you can say weight cutting can be done safely with no long term effects as realistically and with the utmost respect, you haven't been around the game long enough to know - perhaps in ten years from now things will be different and either you or I will have a different outlook as I'm a great believer in practical experience.
If fighters continue to use the infamous water retention method for several years it may or perhaps may not have a detremental effect - who knows?
I brought a fighter to South Africa several years ago for a Pro 12 round World Title fight with a very substantial four figure purse and the fight and the weigh ins were all televised live throughout South Africa.
The fighter had to cut serious weight and we both agreed that it certainly had an effect on his performance even though it was a 24 hour in advance weigh in, and we went back to the drawing board.
We moved to a more agreeable weight and the same fighter, although he had to still cut some weight, went on to win a Pro World Title by knockout in the 7th round at a higher and more suitable weight.
Please don't think I'm trying to knock anybody as it really is none of my business but I would hate to see any fighter potentially damage his/her health for the sake of winning a couple of fights especially as the money is relatively crap unless of course they make the big time and at that stage, they would have the luxury of having professional dieticians, nutritionists etc to look after them.

Killme00

Niall Keane wrote: »

steroids, which signify a clear intent to cheat,

Are steroids illegal in competition? I dont think they are illegal in amateur kickboxing, san shou, BJJ or most non olympic combat sports. I wouldnt consider them cheating if using PEDs arent against the rules.

Niall Keane wrote: »

its not like bandaging the fists to become like concrete (something I've come accross a few times) but in a way it is a "work around" of the rules?

Thats clearly cheating

OLDMAN1

Killme00 wrote: »

Are steroids illegal in competition? I dont think they are illegal in amateur kickboxing, san shou, BJJ or most non olympic combat sports. I wouldnt consider them cheating if using PEDs arent against the rules.




Thats clearly cheating

they are illegal in sanshou and i would be very surprised is they were not banned in all the other combat sportsyou listed.

mark.leonard

black dragon wrote: »

...the weigh ins are overseen by experienced officials from both sides and not recorded on a mobile phone somewhere up the country.

Not sure how that's relevant to weight cutting, but feel free to vent!

black dragon wrote: »

In amatuer championships such as the WAKOS fighters must weigh in every day of the competition so they can't spiral their weight and therefore all fighters are relatively equal come fight time.

That is a good practice to enforce that fighters compete at their fight weight, under that system nobody would be able to cut weight, taking that aspect of competition out of the equation.

black dragon wrote: »

I really don't understand how you can say weight cutting can be done safely with no long term effects as realistically and with the utmost respect, you haven't been around the game long enough to know - perhaps in ten years from now things will be different and either you or I will have a different outlook as I'm a great believer in practical experience.

You or I will never amass the body of experience to equal the kind of empirical data available from a huge sport like wrestling. I say it can be done safely because of the kind of analysis done in sports around much longer than MMA. If you base all your thinking on your own experience you are opening yourself up to anecdotal inference that leads to incomplete conclusions like "fighter A cut weight and it hurt his performance, therefore weight cutting hurts everyone's performance "

black dragon wrote: »

If fighters continue to use the infamous water retention method for several years it may or perhaps may not have a detremental effect - who knows?

Wrestlers

black dragon wrote: »

I brought a fighter to South Africa several years ago for a Pro 12 round World Title fight with a very substantial four figure purse and the fight and the weigh ins were all televised live throughout South Africa.
The fighter had to cut serious weight and we both agreed that it certainly had an effect on his performance even though it was a 24 hour in advance weigh in, and we went back to the drawing board.
We moved to a more agreeable weight and the same fighter, although he had to still cut some weight, went on to win a Pro World Title by knockout in the 7th round at a higher and more suitable weight.

This is exactly the kind of progression I talked about in earlier posts, cut some weight to begin with, if it doesn't work; change how much/how you cut until you get a system that works for your body.

black dragon wrote: »

Please don't think I'm trying to knock anybody as it really is none of my business but I would hate to see any fighter potentially damage his/her health for the sake of winning a couple of fights especially as the money is relatively crap unless of course they make the big time and at that stage, they would have the luxury of having professional dieticians, nutritionists etc to look after them.

Nothing but a friendly debate here Pete, I know you well enough to see where you are coming from.
That being said, I want to make sure its known that I would never do anything to have "any fighter potentially damage his/her health for the sake of winning a couple of fights".
I have a solid understanding of weight cutting, how it can be done safely and what could lead to it being unsafe; I am using much more than my own experience in these determinations and that is why I am so confident in what I am saying, and in the safety of the fighters I have coached.

Joe Wilson

Some interesting reading possibly.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ans/psychology/health_psychology/Weight-Wrestling.htm

mark.leonard

Joe Wilson wrote: »

Some interesting reading possibly.

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/ans/psychology/health_psychology/Weight-Wrestling.htm

No new information there tbh, take things to extremes and bad things happen, not a surprise

Killme00

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

they are illegal in sanshou and i would be very surprised is they were not banned in all the other combat sportsyou listed.

Evidence please.

OLDMAN1

Killme00 wrote: »

Evidence please.

http://www.iwuf.org/

THE ANTIDOPPING RULES ARE LISTED HERE

Burnt

While weight cutting is not so easy with in Judo as certain other sports,
it does take place to some extent, at pretty much all levels. Though initially
this isn't a tactical things it's just many, beginners don't work hard enough
to remain in their category.

At the higher levels it is indeed tactical; in combination with weight cycling
through the season/s, it has lead to detrimental health problems in later years.

Judo has been an organised martial art/combat sport for about 120 years and
an Olympic sport for about 50 with the all benefits of team doctors etc..
supervising the athletes. Despite this they still suffer health implications.

For many top athletes, in particular heavy weights, after retirement and in later
life they have difficulty regulating their weight and struggle with obesity and all
the secondary problems that leads to.

It will be hard to find many studies supporting this as there isn't much interest
in retired and washed up sports men and woman. But if you were to take a
look over on Judoform.com I'm sure you'd find some info from Cichorei Kano.

mark.leonard

Burnt wrote: »

While weight cutting is not so easy with in Judo as certain other sports,
it does take place to some extent, at pretty much all levels. Though initially
this isn't a tactical things it's just many, beginners don't work hard enough
to remain in their category.

At the higher levels it is indeed tactical; in combination with weight cycling
through the season/s, it has lead to detrimental health problems in later years.

Judo has been an organised martial art/combat sport for about 120 years and
an Olympic sport for about 50 with the all benefits of team doctors etc..
supervising the athletes. Despite this they still suffer health implications.

For many top athletes, in particular heavy weights, after retirement and in later
life they have difficulty regulating their weight and struggle with obesity and all
the secondary problems that leads to.

It will be hard to find many studies supporting this as there isn't much interest
in retired and washed up sports men and woman. But if you were to take a
look over on Judoform.com I'm sure you'd find some info from Cichorei Kano.

I think you are talking about weight management more than cutting Burnt; fat levels isn't relevant to the kind of cutting we are talking about. People cutting are already in shape, just deliberately bigger than their weight category while in shape.

Doug Cartel

Burnt wrote: »

But if you were to take a
look over on Judoform.com I'm sure you'd find some info from Cichorei Kano.

I wouldn't pay much heed to his trolling.

Burnt

mark.leonard wrote: »

I think you are talking about weight management more than cutting Burnt; fat levels isn't relevant to the kind of cutting we are talking about. People cutting are already in shape, just deliberately bigger than their weight category while in shape.

I'm fairly familiar with weight cutting, such that you are heavier on the
mat or in the ring than the official category, or agreed match weight.

The fat issues I mentioned are a problem some years after the persons
high level international career would have ended. Most Judoka competing
a Olympic/world championship/super A level, with the exception of some
of the +100kgs are ripped and would not be loosing body fat.