50:50 to end on the 28-03-11.

Gee-22

http://www.u.tv/News/50-50-police-recruitment-to-end/21ea760b-2c37-4e1a-a924-8e398d415cfb


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/psni-5050-recruitment-policy-ends-15122747.html

Gee-22

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12821412

0607

Where did you get 2012 from?

Gee-22

The news was only breaking when I typed that.

The radio report said that it wouldn't come into effect until 2012 - think they ment it wouldn't affect recruitment until then because thats when the next recruitment process will take place.

Delancey

Well , no need to speculate now anymore about 50/50 , I'm surprised that no other mechanism has been introduced to ensure RC representation.

Expect lots of FOI requests next recruitment drive :rolleyes:

Gee-22

What do people think will happen to the current merit list? Will they still be allowed to se it?

Im sure external appointments are putting stamps on letters as we speak...

gigity gigity

Well this is the final nail in the coffin for this recruitment campaign. Its a pity for us all as anyone left in the pool will have to reapply. Im not sure that they would be able to start selecting again from this pool it would cause too much of a headache.

Goonerdee

Delancey wrote: »

Well , no need to speculate now anymore about 50/50 , I'm surprised that no other mechanism has been introduced to ensure RC representation.

Expect lots of FOI requests next recruitment drive :rolleyes:

They might have several plans in place for all we know. I think that if there is going to be continued recruitment along the lines of religion then it should be much more proportionate, i.e. if 30% of those in the merit pool are RC then 30% of available places should be allocated to them, then everyone, no matter what their religion is, has an equal chance of getting a place.

1967J

gigity gigity wrote: »

Well this is the final nail in the coffin for this recruitment campaign. Its a pity for us all as anyone left in the pool will have to reapply. Im not sure that they would be able to start selecting again from this pool it would cause too much of a headache.

Would not agree, as this campaign has been run under the 50 / 50 and therefore no laws/rules will have been broken if any further intakes are decided upon - I suppose it depends on the exact wording of the statement (if any) with regards to present recruitment - I for one live in hope of positive news but as said at least this clarifies for the future

SJAG

Again, staying positive.

Would i be too optimistic if i said, they might continue from current list, but without positive discrimination in place?

Gee-22

SJAG wrote: »

Again, staying positive.

Would i be too optimistic if i said, they might continue from current list, but without positive discrimination in place?

Thats what my hope is. Might be too much to ask for

1967J

SJAG wrote: »

Again, staying positive.

Would i be too optimistic if i said, they might continue from current list, but without positive discrimination in place?

It is a possibility but as long as they continue either way I will be happy, l personally would have thought that if they continue on the current list then it would continue on a 50 50 basis, as this is the basis under which the campaign was run. To do differently may be leaving themselves open to a case of discrimination - So long as they use the current merit pool I will be happy

SJAG

There would be no grounds for a case of discrimination surely. the list will still be used, as it has been, however all the nrc who were bypassed further up the list to implement 50:50 would get there place. however that would surely mean an intake without a single RC student.... since it jumped from ~230 on the NRC side to ~650+ on the RC side.

Delancey

Future intakes will be watched closely by politicians for their RC / NRC composition - an intake of say 90% NRC will elicit a lot of noise , it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

1967J

Delancey wrote: »

Future intakes will be watched closely by politicians for their RC / NRC composition - an intake of say 90% NRC will elicit a lot of noise , it will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

One of the reasons I personally think the current merit pool (if used) would continue on a 50 50 basis

0607

Surely future intakes will not require you to disclose your ''community background'' - therefore as long as youre a human being, the top x amount of candidates in the merit pool will go through...the rest fail.

Religion shouldnt be a factor at all. So a FOI request would be useless as the PSNI wont have that sort of info anymore. I believe thats how it should be from now on.

Delancey

0607 wrote: »

Surely future intakes will not require you to disclose your ''community background'' - therefore as long as youre a human being, the top x amount of candidates in the merit pool will go through...the rest fail.

Religion shouldnt be a factor at all. So a FOI request would be useless as the PSNI wont have that sort of info anymore. I believe thats how it should be from now on.

Northern Ireland now has some of the toughest fair employment legislation in Europe. All employers ( above a certain size ) are required to monitor their recruitment , even with 50/50 gone candidates will be required to disclose their RC / non-RC status - if this were not done it would be impossible to measure the make-up of the Police.
As the saying goes : '' If it can't be measured then it can't be managed ''.

wanadrum

Why the need to measure it or manage it - in what way religion is actually relevant to employment in the vast majority of jobs?

Delancey

wanadrum wrote: »

Why the need to measure it or manage it - in what way religion is actually relevant to employment in the vast majority of jobs?

Because for decades the unemployment rate for RC's in Northern Ireland was way above that for non-RC's with many big employers not employing any RC's.
Fair employment legislation requires employers to monitor the make up of their workforce - this has opened up opportunities in many companies / organisations that previously favoured staff from one section of the community over another.

meathstevie

Delancey wrote: »

Because for decades the unemployment rate for RC's in Northern Ireland was way above that for non-RC's with many big employers not employing any RC's.
Fair employment legislation requires employers to monitor the make up of their workforce - this has opened up opportunities in many companies / organisations that previously favoured staff from one section of the community over another.

On a sideline; I was chatting to a lady who's quite senior in the HR department in of a world famous drinks company that has a substantial plant and office in Belfast a while ago. They are very aware of religious/society issues in Northern Ireland and they would be very careful in their recruitment process as to have a balance in their workforce. According to her there are several advantages to having an as balanced as possible workforce :

- it makes sectarian nonsense on the workfloor a lot harder to take root

- it appears to be breaking down barriers between folks from different
backgrounds

- it reduces sectarian based grievances

0607

Delancey wrote: »

Northern Ireland now has some of the toughest fair employment legislation in Europe. All employers ( above a certain size ) are required to monitor their recruitment , even with 50/50 gone candidates will be required to disclose their RC / non-RC status - if this were not done it would be impossible to measure the make-up of the Police.
As the saying goes : '' If it can't be measured then it can't be managed ''.

Was just thinking that this afternoon mate. Remembering when you apply for any job they ask you on their own monitoring forum. Sad state of affairs in the Uk.

Delancey

0607 wrote: »

Was just thinking that this afternoon mate. Remembering when you apply for any job they ask you on their own monitoring forum. Sad state of affairs in the Uk.

Good point - throughout the UK Public Service applicants are asked about their ethnicity and increasingly are asked about their sexual orientation , disabilities , etc. Northern Ireland just takes it 1 step further by asking about religion.

Funny story about that : The Met a number of years ago announced a big increase in the number of new recruits from Ethnic Minorities , the increase was so sudden that some suspicious minds decided to delve deeper into the figures . It emerged that the increase was largely down to The Met classing all recruits from the island of Ireland as a minority. When the Irish recruits were discounted the figures showed a much smaller increase :rolleyes: .

Gee-22

So today is an end to an era, as 50:50 officially ends.

Goonerdee

Thank goodness.

gigity gigity

Gee-22 wrote: »

So today is an end to an era, as 50:50 officially ends.

Yeah- bad day for all us wannabes. Just think about the amount of people who had the chance to join the police as they changed a huge chunk of the workforce. If it wasnt for Pattens recomendations there would have been a lot less places available within the service.

wanadrum

Yes less spaces - but if we are still not in it doesn't mean much.

On another note, I think they have gotten riid of/lost a lot of experienced officers - and if the security situation worsens the may regret it.

So who thinks the wait until march letter is gonna turn out to be a wait after march letter?

gigity gigity

wanadrum wrote: »

Yes less spaces - but if we are still not in it doesn't mean much.

On another note, I think they have gotten riid of/lost a lot of experienced officers - and if the security situation worsens the may regret it.

So who thinks the wait until march letter is gonna turn out to be a wait after march letter?

I wouldnt be surprised to hear that some of the more senior officers are offering advice or perhaps doing a little behind the scenes. Actually just to add to my previous point-Wont there be even less spaces available in the future since they have recruited so many young recruits who can provide the full term in the police, any one who was near retirement and eligable for patten more than likely took it?

We could still hear back officially over the next couple of days. I was secretly hoping that they would pull another intake out of the bag before the offical ending of 5050- would have been good but the chance has passed.

Goonerdee

Don't give up hope, not everybody will do the full term and I am hoping there could be 30 to 40 spaces available every year, I know it's not huge, but 30 to 40 spaces is better than no spaces.

Bottle_of_Smoke

gigity gigity wrote: »

I wouldnt be surprised to hear that some of the more senior officers are offering advice or perhaps doing a little behind the scenes.

I'm sure I read somewhere some former detectives were being rehired through agencies to help out. Sounds insane but policing in NI is a unique situation.

Happy to see 50:50 ending. Must have been a real source of anger for Protestants who scored high but didn't get offered a job.

Dietcoke1

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I'm sure I read somewhere some former detectives were being rehired through agencies to help out. Sounds insane but policing in NI is a unique situation.

Happy to see 50:50 ending. Must have been a real source of anger for Protestants who scored high but didn't get offered a job.

Not for the protestants who got a job due to the high in takes because of 50/50!

Gee-22

I heard them saying that the 1st minister, DFM, baggot and ford were discussing the 50:50 when they were at stormont today.

Can they reverse the decision? Or is it final. Didn't seem like it was final.

SJAG

Dietcoke1 wrote: »

Not for the protestants who got a job due to the high in takes because of 50/50!

a completely nonsensical post... The levels of recruitment were to replace huge numbers of RUC officers enticed to leave the force through financial means... Not at all because of 50/50! If positive discrimination was not in place you're post would make sense, it would have been 80/20 at least according to the stats... Then protestants would have gained, but we would have a non representative PSNI.

Buzz35

SJAG wrote: »

a completely nonsensical post... The levels of recruitment were to replace huge numbers of RUC officers enticed to leave the force through financial means... Not at all because of 50/50! If positive discrimination was not in place you're post would make sense, it would have been 80/20 at least according to the stats... Then protestants would have gained, but we would have a non representative PSNI.

Yep. Agree 100%.

Delancey

Gee-22 wrote: »

I heard them saying that the 1st minister, DFM, baggot and ford were discussing the 50:50 when they were at stormont today.

Can they reverse the decision? Or is it final. Didn't seem like it was final.

I suppose in ' Norn Iron ' that anything is possible Gee , though I would not expect any developments this side of the assembly elections .

Bottle_of_Smoke

Gee-22 wrote: »

I heard them saying that the 1st minister, DFM, baggot and ford were discussing the 50:50 when they were at stormont today.

Can they reverse the decision? Or is it final. Didn't seem like it was final.

I wouldn't see the point in reversing it. 50/50 has worked - Republican and Nationalist communities are expressing outrage at the murder of Ronan Kerr.

The people who still reject the police are the ones who will never accept them whilst NI remains a part of the UK.

gigity gigity

SJAG wrote: »

a completely nonsensical post... The levels of recruitment were to replace huge numbers of RUC officers enticed to leave the force through financial means... Not at all because of 50/50! If positive discrimination was not in place you're post would make sense, it would have been 80/20 at least according to the stats... Then protestants would have gained, but we would have a non representative PSNI.

Hold on a second. The reason they were offered money to leave was so that 5050 could take place. If they werent then it would have taken decades to reach 30% representation through natural wastage. If there was no patten and no 5050 there would have been limited places available anyway. So he is actually right- we were all better of under patten., Why do people still not realise this?

Goonerdee

gigity gigity wrote: »

Hold on a second. The reason they were offered money to leave was so that 5050 could take place. If they werent then it would have taken decades to reach 30% representation through natural wastage. If there was no patten and no 5050 there would have been limited places available anyway. So he is actually right- we were all better of under patten., Why do people still not realise this?

Mass recruitment and 50/50 aren't the same. It would be possible for a campaign to retire RUC officers and replace with new recruits without 50/50 but I can't see there being any more campaigns like that now. Chances are the RUC officers still there now were some of the last intakes into the force when it was that name, so they can have up to 30 years service left in them and it would be cheaper to keep them than pay them a adequate sum and start paying the 3500 new recruits replacing them.

gigity gigity

Goonerdee wrote: »

Mass recruitment and 50/50 aren't the same. It would be possible for a campaign to retire RUC officers and replace with new recruits without 50/50 but I can't see there being any more campaigns like that now. Chances are the RUC officers still there now were some of the last intakes into the force when it was that name, so they can have up to 30 years service left in them and it would be cheaper to keep them than pay them a adequate sum and start paying the 3500 new recruits replacing them.

Your right 5050 and mass recruitment arent the same but to reach 30% representation and to fulfill the wishes of patten the force had to reduce in numbers and also for every rc recruited there had to be a non-rc recruited. It would have taken far to long without mass recruitment so thats why they had to go hand in hand.

By the way im not trying to be a smart arse or anything just saying what I believe to be true.

Goonerdee

gigity gigity wrote: »

Your right 5050 and mass recruitment arent the same but to reach 30% representation and to fulfill the wishes of patten the force had to reduce in numbers and also for every rc recruited there had to be a non-rc recruited. It would have taken far to long without mass recruitment so thats why they had to go hand in hand.

Of course. I can't see mass recruitment or 50/50 taking place again unless there is a severe deterioration in the security situation, but I think if an officer's religion is going to be the main factor in whether someone is recruited then the percentage of NRCs and RCs in the merit pool should be used for allocation of places, i.e.70/30 in the merit pool, 70/30 of those appointed.

Goonerdee

P.S. So far CSP has recruited 35 officers this year (think it was a news site reported that number) and the CSP is 800 officers, a ninth the size of the PSNI. So if the replacement numbers for the CSP is typical of all forces that means the PSNI could be looking for approx 300 replacements per year. Not bad if it's even a third of that.

gigity gigity

I agree it should have been done like that. It would have taken the edge of the sword if you know what I mean? I think the hope now is that rcs will continue to apply and that should maintain the percentage but I think it will begin to drop as time goes on.

The difference is with us and the csp is that we have have already got rid of loads of officers who were close to retirement so all the new members have still got at least another 20 years in them. Would be happy enough though if there were 100 places available per year but its probably a tall order

Goonerdee

gigity gigity wrote: »

I agree it should have been done like that. It would have taken the edge of the sword if you know what I mean? I think the hope now is that rcs will continue to apply and that should maintain the percentage but I think it will begin to drop as time goes on.

The difference is with us and the csp is that we have have already got rid of loads of officers who were close to retirement so all the new members have still got at least another 20 years in them. Would be happy enough though if there were 100 places available per year but its probably a tall order

Yeah, that's the downside, but as I've said, not everyone does the full term. I work with a guy who was a cop in England, he had two really bad cases in a very short time and left him hating to be a cop. There are many like him. Joining hoping they can cope, but not being able to. Horrible situation in which to be getting a chance but, that's life.

Dietcoke1

Gee-22 wrote: »

I heard them saying that the 1st minister, DFM, baggot and ford were discussing the 50:50 when they were at stormont today.

Can they reverse the decision? Or is it final. Didn't seem like it was final.

Enda Kenny stated in the dail today he will raise the issue with the English PM also.

Will be interesting to see the out come of the meeting.

Delancey

Dietcoke1 wrote: »

Enda Kenny stated in the dail today he will raise the issue with the English PM also.

Will be interesting to see the out come of the meeting.

Ha , you beat me to it Dietcoke ! Yes , Enda Kenny will be raising the ending of 50/50 with David Cameron.
I have long said that I thought that 50/50 would end but be replaced by some mechanism to ensure RC representation was maintained , I was surprised that no announcement of this was made when the Secretary of State said 50/50 was over.

I'll stick my neck out a bit and say that I believe there will be some form of positive discrimination in relation to future recruitment. Just my own opinion of course and it goes without saying that sweet fxxx all will be heard on this until after the Assembly elections :rolleyes:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0405/psni.html

gigity gigity

Hopfully they sort something out. Would have been a nice gesture to the catholic community to continue it on a little after the 30% mark.

On a side note will there be 30% when the classes in garnerville pass out or does that include them already?

Delancey

gigity gigity wrote: »

Hopfully they sort something out. Would have been a nice gesture to the catholic community to continue it on a little after the 30% mark.

On a side note will there be 30% when the classes in garnerville pass out or does that include them already?

I'm not 100% sure I understand your question gig but if you are asking will there be a minimum of 30% RC in future classes at Garnerville then the answer is No ( for now ).
50/50 is over and in the absence of any mechanism to ensure x% level of RC representation then composition is purely down to merit - this is not to say there won't be classes with 30% + RC but is is equally possible that there could be classes with much less than that.

My belief is that a few intakes with low RC representation will become politically unsustainable and some mechanism will be implemented to redress the perceived imbalance.

1967J

Reading gigs question I believe the question is does the 30% already take account of the students at gville or just actual serving officers in the field - I would believe it is the former - If this is not what you meant apologies for misunderstanding

Goonerdee

Delancey wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure I understand your question gig but if you are asking will there be a minimum of 30% RC in future classes at Garnerville then the answer is No ( for now ).
50/50 is over and in the absence of any mechanism to ensure x% level of RC representation then composition is purely down to merit - this is not to say there won't be classes with 30% + RC but is is equally possible that there could be classes with much less than that.

My belief is that a few intakes with low RC representation will become politically unsustainable and some mechanism will be implemented to redress the perceived imbalance.

This is why I believe there should be a merit pool to appointment ratio for religion. This way everyone has an equal chance based on religion whereas previously with 50/50 100% of RCs who passed all phases were appointed while only approx 30% of all NRCs were appointed.

sharan

I fancy another rant, lets have all the people in the current pool awaiting vetting/medical clearing called for an indepth interview. Question should be asked why do you ant to join? do you know how this will affect your family? Do you know there are idiots out there looking to kill you? Do you know you carry a gun at all times? Do you know you will work shifts/weekends. This should weed out timewasters who go to Garnerville and drop out.

These recent events have made me more determined as very to serve my community, I just wish the powers at be could see the determination of me and fellow boarders that WE WANT TO SERVE OUR COMMUNITY so finish what you started in this campaign.......

Gee-22

sharan wrote: »

I fancy another rant, lets have all the people in the current pool awaiting vetting/medical clearing called for an indepth interview. Question should be asked why do you ant to join? do you know how this will affect your family? Do you know there are idiots out there looking to kill you? Do you know you carry a gun at all times? Do you know you will work shifts/weekends. This should weed out timewasters who go to Garnerville and drop out.

These recent events have made me more determined as very to serve my community, I just wish the powers at be could see the determination of me and fellow boarders that WE WANT TO SERVE OUR COMMUNITY so finish what you started in this campaign.......

What about those of us who have passed vetting and Medicals? Do we get in automatically? I like your thinking.

1967J

Gee-22 wrote: »

What about those of us who have passed vetting and Medicals? Do we get in automatically? I like your thinking.

Would like to think so LOL

Still cannot believe that with this job there is no face to face