Spawning grounds destroyed by Waterways Ireland

Daroxtar

Please look at this video and tell me what you think.
I'm stunned that this is the practise of the body whose job it is to protect and preserve our canals. I have never fished on the canals but I just cant stop thinking about the damage being caused here.

Its very easy to complain about eastern europeans poaching but surely destroying the spawning grounds is having an equal or worse effect?

Does anyone know who to contact about this? Should it be the minister for the Enviornment? By the sounds of things in the comments on the video Waterways Ireland havent a clue and show an arrogant, braindead attitude typical of the state/semistate bodies under the last government. If this video is accurate then somebody needs to put a stop to it immediately before this years hatch of fish is destroyed too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ6e-XeZh0Y&feature=player_embedded

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ6e-XeZh0Y

Evac105

For a moment here I'm going to post as a Devil's Advocate of Waterways Ireland (obviously I don't work for them as anyone who checks my previous posts can tell):

<troll>
"Spawning grounds destroyed by Waterways Ireland"? Seems a little excessive, unless you've gathered empirical evidence to the contrary or have expert opinions which agree with your point of view, neither of which you've seen fit to produce if you have. Currently you're expressing your view as an amateur naturalist on this matter, without any solid evidence or convincing research on the matter, whereas I'm sure that our waterways maintenance staff consulted with both the IFI and fisheries experts prior to determining the scheduling of this work.
</troll>

My point is that, as sympathetic as I am towards your point of view, you've produced circumstantial footage of a single incident which, even if it was proven to be significantly detrimental to the fish stocks, couldn't be taken as being widespread or systemic. If you want to actually change this behaviour by Waterways Ireland then you need (a) either conclusive proof or several expert opinions which confirm your theory and (b) evidence that this is the typical behaviour by Waterways Ireland in those circumstances.

Daroxtar

Very fair points. Now if this is proven to be the common practise and someone can tell me that they are destroying fish stocks by doing this then do you think it needs to be addressed urgently and who do I contact?

bitemybanger

This type of work is carried out by the OPW or Waterways Ireland. you could contact them first and see what thier policy is and weather they sought advice from the fisheries board which I imagine they would have.

Evac105

It needs to be addressed of course if that's the case since the canals are already under pressure from illegal methods from what I've been told over the last few years (don't fish them myself I'm afraid). As to who to contact if you can prove your points I would imagine IFI and then, if you get no satisfaction, have a look at talking to angling press - especially UK publications, as the negative exposure with the attendant risk to angling tourism is something which neither Waterways Ireland or the IFI can afford to ignore.

gsxr1

This is done every year as it is a waterway for canal boats . The canal beside us get very overgrown and impassable if not maintained .

With all respect to fishermen on the canal . The canals where not intended for fishing. And although the industrial use of the canal system has now stopped, the system it used by boat people regularly . People who live on the waters. Their right of passage really should be the first priority IMO.

How else do you suggest the waterways are kept clear?

Daroxtar

gsxr1 wrote: »

This is done every year as it is a waterway for canal boats . The canal beside us get very overgrown and impassable if not maintained .

With all respect to fishermen on the canal . The canals where not intended for fishing. And although the industrial use of the canal system has now stopped, the system it used by boat people regularly . People who live on the waters. Their right of passage really should be the first priority IMO.

How else do you suggest the waterways are kept clear?

Maybe just put back or forward the cutting date by a few weeks. They dont need to cut at that exact time.

What you say is 100% valid regarding the primary use of the canal, but its still an environment that should be protected.

Bizzum

Evac105 wrote: »

For a moment here I'm going to post as a Devil's Advocate of Waterways Ireland (obviously I don't work for them as anyone who checks my previous posts can tell):

<troll>
"Spawning grounds destroyed by Waterways Ireland"? Seems a little excessive, unless you've gathered empirical evidence to the contrary or have expert opinions which agree with your point of view, neither of which you've seen fit to produce if you have. Currently you're expressing your view as an amateur naturalist on this matter, without any solid evidence or convincing research on the matter, whereas I'm sure that our waterways maintenance staff consulted with both the IFI and fisheries experts prior to determining the scheduling of this work.''
</troll>

I'll now express my views and these will be facts relating to the Grand Canal.
Coarse fish spawn in the vegetation in the canal. The vegetation is being removed bank to bank. Spawning ground is being destroyed. Simple.




''My point is that, as sympathetic as I am towards your point of view, you've produced circumstantial footage of a single incident which, even if it was proven to be significantly detrimental to the fish stocks, couldn't be taken as being widespread or systemic. ''

It is widespread right across the midlands. Several machines cutting away vegatation bank to bank. It's not a single isolated event and it's not only this year!







''If you want to actually change this behaviour by Waterways Ireland then you need (a) either conclusive proof or several expert opinions which confirm your theory and ''

The proof is in a pile on the bank.




''(b) evidence that this is the typical behaviour by Waterways Ireland in those circumstances.

Drive for miles along the Grand canal and you will see how widespread it is.

Evac105

Without wanting to get into a back and forth I'll say again, I'm not in any way affiliated with IFI or Waterways Ireland but without accreditation everything said up to now can be dismissed as amateur opinions by them, regardless of how strongly you believe in what you've said. Once again, if this is serious enough that people are willing to put in the effort then:

Document - create a thread, a website, a blog that records each incident that you discover of this behaviour, this demonstrates a history. Including photo's with date stamps further strengthens this. I would recommend a thread or forum type of records as this should permit collaboration amongst all the people concerned regarding this.

Research - investigate the breeding times of the species you feel are being affected by this, their preferred breeding locations/plant species. Cite published peer documentation which substantiate these findings. Investigate the weed piles on the banks of the canal and document (once again with dated photos if possible) the numbers of fish and fish eggs which have been affected.

Publicise - Inform angling journalists, affected angling clubs and societies, naturalists, the Green Party, the IFI, Irish Tourism. Inform everyone who has a stake in the health of those ecosystems and the people who believe that those ecosystems are important in and of themselves.

Unless you're willing to commit/participate to a campaign of this nature then anything you post is, without wanting to insult anyone, a dead end in terms of addressing the issue. Without rock solid evidence to back up claims then, ultimately, anything you or I say can be dismissed as an 'amateur/uninformed view' regardless of how well you may feel you know the subject. Without pressure things get done very rarely in this country, without publicity you have no pressure and you can't generate publicity without the aforementioned irrefutable proof.

I'm not saying this to detract from anything people have said but I've been involved in other well-meaning but unsuccessful causes in the past. These are the lessons I've learned from those experiences - that without those building blocks being in place no matter how just, deserved or morally/ethically/ecologically correct your cause is, it won't get anywhere. Maybe I'm overly pessimistic because of my experiences but there ya have it.

Paparazzo

The canals are criminally under used by boats. The shannon is jammed with boats, but the canal is almost empty. Anyone any ideas why?

thehamo

I would imagine a pure lack of interest.

My self and a few friends used to rent a boat on the royal canal for a few days at a time and we would be the only ones on the canal give or take one or two others. They guy we rented the boat off had a fleet of about 4 and he ended up selling them on because there was just no interest in them. Also, there is very little facilities in terms of docking and strage of boats on the canal from what ive seen anyway, up as far as moy valley.

I whole heartedly agree that they are criminaly underused we had great weekends away on them.

One thing I would say was we were literally followed up the canal by the waterways ireland balifs whcih was quite annoying. The boat owner even commented on how we operated the locks further up the canal past kilkcock and we started off in Blanchardstown. Very annoying to say the least.

Bizzum

Evac105 wrote: »

Without wanting to get into a back and forth I'll say again, I'm not in any way affiliated with IFI or Waterways Ireland but without accreditation everything said up to now can be dismissed as amateur opinions by them, regardless of how strongly you believe in what you've said. Once again, if this is serious enough that people are willing to put in the effort then:

Document - create a thread, a website, a blog that records each incident that you discover of this behaviour, this demonstrates a history. Including photo's with date stamps further strengthens this. I would recommend a thread or forum type of records as this should permit collaboration amongst all the people concerned regarding this.

Research - investigate the breeding times of the species you feel are being affected by this, their preferred breeding locations/plant species. Cite published peer documentation which substantiate these findings. Investigate the weed piles on the banks of the canal and document (once again with dated photos if possible) the numbers of fish and fish eggs which have been affected.

Publicise - Inform angling journalists, affected angling clubs and societies, naturalists, the Green Party, the IFI, Irish Tourism. Inform everyone who has a stake in the health of those ecosystems and the people who believe that those ecosystems are important in and of themselves.

Unless you're willing to commit/participate to a campaign of this nature then anything you post is, without wanting to insult anyone, a dead end in terms of addressing the issue. Without rock solid evidence to back up claims then, ultimately, anything you or I say can be dismissed as an 'amateur/uninformed view' regardless of how well you may feel you know the subject. Without pressure things get done very rarely in this country, without publicity you have no pressure and you can't generate publicity without the aforementioned irrefutable proof.

I'm not saying this to detract from anything people have said but I've been involved in other well-meaning but unsuccessful causes in the past. These are the lessons I've learned from those experiences - that without those building blocks being in place no matter how just, deserved or morally/ethically/ecologically correct your cause is, it won't get anywhere. Maybe I'm overly pessimistic because of my experiences but there ya have it.

Reasoned and intelligent post in the main. Evac105 or Bizzum or anyone on here, could be anybody!
We all have vested interests.I will say though, my opinion is neither amateur nor uninformed. What I have posted, thus far, on this subject are the facts as I see them.

beer enigma

Its a valid concern & I'd love to see providence on the videos to prove dates.

I appreciate that canals have to be kept clear, but as one of the posters have said, another few weeks would not make a difference. That being said, I wont raise this higher until I have definite dates.

I'm a Mod on here, NCFFI member for several years and also have Simon Coveney & Micheal Martin as my local TD's. If this is genuinely happening during spawning than it should be addressed

OP feel free to PM me but I need detail

tin79

I have been through this before with waterways Ireland and previous to that the OPW. The position at the time, and likely to be so now, is that they cut the centre channel and not the margins where the majority of spawning takes place.

From my own investigation of the dumped weed I am not 100% convinced that is the case and their practice is often different from what they preach. They are aware of the problem but there are a lot of competing interests here and if you query they will likey come back with reports of healthy fish biomass and adhering to best practice etc.

IMO the cutting should not be allowed in the may to june period as undoubtedly it can cause some problems on several fronts including direct removal of laid eggs, damage to potential spawning sites and sediment smothering of eggs in situ.

But its not an easy task to take on to change their minds

Bizzum

A few points:

Waterways Ireland cut bank to bank. I've seen it other years and I see it this year west of Edenderry.

Pike are spawning about this time of the year with the other coarse fish, typically early may on.

Notwithstanding the damage to fish populations by removal of instream vegetation, but also the bigger of the machines they use draws juvenile fish up the intake to their death.

If, lets say a farmer, were to do such damage to any other waterway, We would be reading about it in the newspapers!

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

tin79 wrote: »

IMO the cutting should not be allowed in the may to june period as undoubtedly it can cause some problems on several fronts including direct removal of laid eggs, damage to potential spawning sites and sediment smothering of eggs in situ.

exactly. farmers cant cut hedges between march and sept to allow birds to nest and hatch their eggs. similar rules should apply. 4-5 weeks should be enough to allow them to spawn. doubt it will ever happen though

Daroxtar

Andip wrote: »

Its a valid concern & I'd love to see providence on the videos to prove dates.

I appreciate that canals have to be kept clear, but as one of the posters have said, another few weeks would not make a difference. That being said, I wont raise this higher until I have definite dates.

I'm a Mod on here, NCFFI member for several years and also have Simon Coveney & Micheal Martin as my local TD's. If this is genuinely happening during spawning than it should be addressed

OP feel free to PM me but I need detail

Ok let's get provenance

I've contacted the guy who made the video and asked him to come on here to contribute to the debate. He is currently filming more underwater footage for a new tv show and will join us soon so he'll have a lot more details. Hopefully he will get back to us before the start of cutting this year and we might just be able to make a difference if the right people are contaced about it

Bizzum

Daroxtar wrote: »

Hopefully he will get back to us before the start of cutting this year and we might just be able to make a difference if the right people are contaced about it

I have seen this guys work a couple of years ago. It's great underwater action. However I didn't need to see it to know what is happening on our canals!

The cutting has already started this year as I've stated in an earlier post.

I wonder who are "the right people" you talk about? This is a well known problem that's being ongoing now a couple of years.

Daroxtar

TBH, I know ****all about who to contact or how to go about doing it. Thats why i started this thread, in the hopes that someone would be able to give me an idea of how to go about it. As I said in the first post I've never even fished in the canal but after seeing the video I just had to say something as it is , in my opinion, completely wrong.

I'd imagine the right people to contact would be the local TDs in the areas the canal passes through and also the Environmantal Protection Agency, the Minister for the Environment and the Minister for Forest and Fisheries (if thats still the title). However I want to make sure I get it right before contacting any of them as if I get it wrong then the chances of being taken seriously and being able to do something about it are probably quite slim

ratarse

how in the name of F*** can anyone be serious about this?! i am a conservationist, but i also have cop on..the pike are not native species...more than likely when the canals were built, they were no fish/pike present..

also, they have to cut the weeds this time of year before they grow excessively..

i can guarantee you the person who started this post is someone who lives a town/city, and unattached to the countryside ( bit like the greens, making rules for the country, even though they are city slickers)

as for the post recommending that someone tell tales to the Uk press..how sad!

coolwings

This might sound a bit callous to people who focus on fish spawn success only, but it's not. There are other factors too.

They have been cutting the weeds in the navigational canals since I was a kid. There are still fish there. Coarse fish lay vast quantities of eggs, and in smaller waters stunting often occurs. So in the canal, if the spawn of some fish is lost, the remaining fish will grow faster due to reduced competition for food. That is beneficial because the canal is a small water, with excellent spawning conditions, but limited environment available after they start to grow up.

About the weed cutting. They can't cut the weeds in the winter bacause there are no weeds then!
They can't do it in the summer either because the quantity of weeds cut would fill up the canal, rotting vegetation would de-oxygenate the water, and dumped weed would cover surrounding walkways. that leaves not cutting as the other option, or spraying weedkiller. Do you remember when that particular option was used?

Now we anglers learn to analyse the conditions of a water and are supposed to adapt to them.

So if I'm fishing a drinking water reservoir and the water is low, I (unlike some others) don't complain about it. I find the fish and fish for them. In a reservoir the water is for someone else, and if that wasn't the case, the reservoir would not have been built, and I wouldn't be able to fish it.

The canal is like a reservoir in certain ways. It's first function is to carry boats, and anglers are below that priority, always will be as long as boats use it. And if boats stop using it, it will fall into disuse, silt up, get shallower, and be worse for anglers too!

Start figuring out what is the best way to fish before weedcutting, during weedcutting, and post weedcutting, and apply your newly found skills to your craft.

Evac105

Hrm - a few things (I'm in a pi**y mood this morning obviously).

ratarse wrote: »

how in the name of F*** can anyone be serious about this?! i am a conservationist, but i also have cop on..the pike are not native species...more than likely when the canals were built, they were no fish/pike present..

Any species which is treated as a resource rather then a pest regardless of provenance should be protected. The angling tourism trade used be worth quite a bit in Ireland, especially for coarse species like pike. I assumed that since I was familiar with those figures (almost 6 years and counting) that they won't have changed so much. So for both conservation (in terms of the balanced ecosystem which the fish have established over the last 150 years) and financial reasons I would suggest that your reasoning is a might flawed.

ratarse wrote: »

also, they have to cut the weeds this time of year before they grow excessively..

And the whole point of this is, or so I believe, to ask people to substantiate the idea that the weed cutting has a significantly detrimental effect on fish stocks. If it doesn't then this is all a molehill, if it does then it's something which should be taken seriously by the relevant authorities. The latter may not occur without substantial corroboration due to the alarming degree of intractability in many Irish state and semi-state bodies when it comes to changing established practices.

ratarse wrote: »

i can guarantee you the person who started this post is someone who lives a town/city, and unattached to the countryside ( bit like the greens, making rules for the country, even though they are city slickers)

No idea, don't know the OP. I am from the country however and can appreciate the OP's concern, if this is actually causing the type of issue which they fear it is. I can also acknowledge that I know a whole bunch of people born in cities who both care more and know more about rural ecologies then I do - many ecologists in fact come from cities - it's like the universities they trained in never checked!

ratarse wrote: »

as for the post recommending that someone tell tales to the Uk press..how sad!

That one's directed at me I guess. Quick straw poll - how many respected Irish Coarse Fishing publications are there out there? Now, how many UK Coarse Fishing publications? Right....

Now which of those groups would it be more advantageous to talk to for the purposes of publicising a issue regarding Coarse Fishing?

As regards telling tales - we're not 12 year olds ratting each other out for smoking behind a bike shed. We're (generally, as there kids here too I'm sure) adults speaking about what could prove to be a significant issue. If it does prove to be then start off by alerting the appropriate authorities in Ireland, if no satisfaction is gained from that then explore the other options I outlined. The other option is to speak to whoever in Ireland and if you don't get anywhere, what? Give up because you don't want to 'tell tales'?

Bizzum

ratarse wrote: »

the pike are not native species...more than likely when the canals were built, they were no fish/pike present.

What has this got to do with it? Are Bream or Roach native and again what has it got to do with this debate?

The issue I have has only manifest itself in the last few years since WI got the new super efficient machine. I'll post photos soon that I took yesterday on the Grand canal (I was brought up on its banks by the way).
The problem I have is instream vegetation removal BANK TO BANK when coarse fish are spawning.

Daroxtar

ratarse wrote: »

how in the name of F*** can anyone be serious about this?! i am a conservationist, but i also have cop on..the pike are not native species...more than likely when the canals were built, they were no fish/pike present..

also, they have to cut the weeds this time of year before they grow excessively..

i can guarantee you the person who started this post is someone who lives a town/city, and unattached to the countryside ( bit like the greens, making rules for the country, even though they are city slickers)

as for the post recommending that someone tell tales to the Uk press..how sad!

Well never before have I come across such an apt name as you clearly haven't a rats arse of a clue who you are talking to or what you are talking about. For starters I was born and raised on the shores of Lough Talt in the middle of the Ox mountains in County Sligo. I'm 300 yards from my nearest neighbour and 5 miles from the nearest shop. City Slicker? Really? GTFO.

Secondly, if you would like to be pedantic about it no coarse fish are native to this country. But then again neither are the Canals a naturally occuring feature of the countryside. Your attitude is that if its not native then it shouldn't be here? I'd love to hear your views on dem forrners that have invaded our pristine homogenous island in the last few years.

As for you being a conservationist, well if a species is introduced into an artificial environment then that species has every right to exist within the confines of that environment.

You have cop on? Of course you do dear. Any other nuggets?

tin79

Ignore the troll lads, not worth the effort for someone who claims to be a pike angler but is happy for pike to be taken for the pot and who seems happy to have their spawning grounds destroyed as they are "non native"

Here is a newsflash for you the canals are man-made so there is no "native" life in them at all and so your points make no sense.

superelliptic

Paparazzo wrote: »

The canals are criminally under used by boats. The shannon is jammed with boats, but the canal is almost empty. Anyone any ideas why?

Couple of reasons:

1. Firstly, until pritty recently they were impassable for most of the way. The grand was mostly alright, but terminated in a building site (grand canal docks) and the royal was derelict for alot of its route, and needed restoration (gates, and the removal of flat bridges with low clearance). In 2008 IWAI removed several sunken vessels from the Grand Canal Docks, and they repaired at least one set of the lock gates, making the docks useable. Whats needed now is to install a large (600+ capacity) marina in the middle of the grand canal docks to attract local/tourist sailors and canal boaters to Dublin, and to provide a reason for people to get into canal cruising locally, so they can end their journey in the new docklands. That would add an amenity to the area, and would pull in money if marketed correctly.

2. Up until this year in fact, the law was absolutely against people living on boats (not sure of the reasoning, but Id say it had to do with keeping crustys from setting up shop). If you wanted to do so, you would be doing it illigally, could be moved on (rarely enforced) and would have access to no services. Your boat would be moored to a concrete block, and would be messy (and dangerous) to try to access via a muddy canal bank in winter/at night. This has only recently been reversed, and I understand that a few moorings have been added on the grand around the naas/sallins area (<-I might be wrong about the location!).

Waterways Ireland is trying to promote the waterways to Irish people and tourists alike, but its early days. The first step was to restore the grand and the royal so that people could travel the full 320km loop without obstruction. Thats bits completed, so now they are focusing on promotion, and to a lesser extent moorings/services, but that will improve with usage. The shannon navigation has more boats on it because its had a functional hire boat service and marina facilities on it for the last 60 years, so its very well established. That said, there are alot of sail boats on the shannon, and because of height restrictions, they cannot use the canals. However, you will see cruiers and hire boats using the canals more now that they are opened up because it adds more destinations to visit. I'v been sailing on the shannon with my family for my whole life and I love it, and I'd really like to see the canals become a heavily used recreational/tourist feature in this country because there is so much potential in them, both for tourism and for local business.

delsalmon

as an applicant for volunteer waterkeeper, i can catagorically state, wi or opw couldnt give a flyin fcuk for angling on the canals. the only thing that concerns them is boat passage through weed. they dont care about poaching , spawning etc. i was promised anti poaching signage 1 year ago for my area, nout has been done. byelaws have been delayed for the foreseeable future. will wi come out for poaching incidents on their water, NO is the answer, correct me if im wrong. the local litterwarden from cc has been more help than wi