MUX 2 launch date ?

joceadaigh

The Cush wrote: »

Link not working

Try again.

The Cush wrote: »

Nothing to do with RTÉNL. It's up to the broadcasters to provide their channels in HD to RTÉNL for transmission and to pay for the extra bitrates required.

TG4 is available in HD on pay platforms. I thinks its ridiculous that 15 years after the UK started digital tv we still can't broadcast 4 HD channels on terrestrial.

STB

joceadaigh wrote: »

TG4 and RTE 1 are available in HD on pay platforms. I thinks its ridiculous that 15 years after the UK started digital tv we still can't broadcast 4 HD channels on terrestrial.

RTE have had a HD channel on air on DVB-T since 2008.

RTE One is not available in HD on any pay platform that I know of. TG4 is.

As The Cush has already mentioned its up to the respective broadcasters to supply the stations to the network for HD output. They also have to pay for carriage on the Mux that RTE have built. That has been the issue!

Also the UK and particularly the BBC have wads of cash from TV licence fee due to the 63million population.

joceadaigh

The Cush wrote: »

Are you sure it's not the other way around? Any TV I've tuned will only store the channels from the transmitter with the strongest signal and hasn't stored duplicate channels from other transmitters using the Ireland setting.

I didn't spend too much time going through the channel lineup in the Irish profile. With over 70 to go through I just presumed they were duplicated from the three transmitters. As there was no ch. names I wasn't going to wasn't too much time on it.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

This is what I was trying to get at a few pages back in this thread.

There are no hidden TV programme channels. There are TV channels without event information. Channels without EIT data does not stop the channel from being displayed eitherway. It will just have a blank epg area. The is a hidden data channel. Some TV's will actually display this as SSU. MHEG carousel is not linked on Mux 2 from what I can see.

Can I ask do you have a Saorview/DTT TV/STB that as you flick through the channels LCNs 12, 13, 14 and 15 are skipped, LCN 11 -> LCN 17 -> LCN 18 ?

I replied to your last post on this with 2 questions - does your Linux box skip these LCNs and why do you think RTÉNL are preventing these 4 LCNs being accessed normally?

STB wrote: »

Currently there are 3 channels with event information, 2 SD and 1 HD. The other 4 don't even have channel broadcast names assigned to them.

Since today none of the channels on Mux2 have broadcast names.

The Cush

joceadaigh wrote: »

Try again.

My brother has a non-Saorview Philips TV with a user interface like that, found it very user unfriendly and required the TV to be installed with UK as the country/region to allow MHEG-5 Aertel to work. Does RTÉ's Aertel service work in the Ireland setting with that TV?

The Cush

STB wrote: »

RTE have had a HD channel on air on DVB-T since 2008.

Occasional HD video testing from Sept 2010 until RTÉ 2 HD was launched in early Dec 2010.

joceadaigh

The Cush wrote: »

My brother has a non-Saorview Philips TV with a user interface like that, found it very user unfriendly and required the TV to be installed with UK as the country/region to allow MHEG-5 Aertel to work.

This is not a Saorview either, thats why the Irish profile has no standards set. Never had a problem with its UI and using the UK profile is no issue either. Unless a new mux is broadcast on VHF there's no need to use Irish profile.

Haven't returned a panasonic freeview HD+ box but it works very well with saorview (and freeview when the signal is good). Might give that a go now too.

joceadaigh

STB wrote: »

Currently there are 3 channels with event information, 2 SD and 1 HD. The other 4 don't even have channel broadcast names assigned to them.

The sooner the better this retune to faciltate RTE One HD the better!

I'm gonna presume that the new channel lineup will be.

RTE ONE HD - New HD
RTE TWO HD
TV3
TG4
RTE News Now
3e
RTEjr
RTE One +1
RTE Two +1 - replaces RTE One SD
TV3 +1 - New SD
TG4 +1 - New SD

They will waste the bandwidth on the 'hidden' channels because apparently its not their job the ensure the Irish people are getting a quality service. I think paying the cost to broadcast two HD test cards instead of the TG4 and TV3 is criminal.

joceadaigh

STB wrote: »

RTE have had a HD channel on air on DVB-T since 2008.

The Cush wrote: »

Occasional HD testing until RTÉ 2 HD was launched in early Dec 2010.

Saorview was only launched in May 2011. There was no public service digital tv till then.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

Can I ask do you have a Saorview/DTT TV/STB that as you flick through the channels LCNs 12, 13, 14 and 15 are skipped, LCN 11 -> LCN 17 -> LCN 18 ?

I replied to your last post on this with 2 questions - does your Linux box skip these LCNs and why do you think RTÉNL are preventing these 4 LCNs being accessed normally?

I have several boxes both Linux and non Linux. I also have a Samsung LCD with a DVB-T tuner set to the UK to turn on the MHEG engine, so logical channel numbering is in the 800s.

The Linux box disregards locical channel numbering. It just sees them as services. It assigns TV services to TV and radio to radio. Tuning order is adhoc. Heres how it tuned in both muxes in an auto search. I guess its populated by Mux 1, then Mux 2.



My LCN is set according to my channel order set in my favourite list mixing terrestrial with satellite.

STB

joceadaigh wrote: »

Saorview was only launched in May 2011. There was no public service digital tv till then.

I have been watching Irish DVB-T it since 2007 and the BT/DCENR trials.

Free to Air Irish Digital TV has been on air since 1 August 2008. Your "Launched" date was political hat waving.

STB

joceadaigh wrote: »

I'm gonna presume that the new channel lineup will be.

RTE ONE HD - New HD
RTE TWO HD
TV3
TG4
RTE News Now
3e
RTEjr
RTE One +1
RTE Two +1 - replaces RTE One SD
TV3 +1 - New SD
TG4 +1 - New SD

They will waste the bandwidth on the 'hidden' channels because apparently its not their job the ensure the Irish people are getting a quality service. I think paying the cost to broadcast two HD test cards instead of the TG4 and TV3 is criminal.

The initial change will be just the addition of RTE One HD (and the removal of the SD one), I guess.

You cannot waste bandwidth by hiding anything. Infact can we give up this hidden channels stuff. The transport streams are broadcast in the open. There is no EIT data association with them.

RTE built the network at a cost of €75m. If Tg4 (a seperate PSB) and TV3 (a private commercial Tv station) want to broadcast in HD on the muxes they will have to agree payment terms with 2RN, the network provider.

What may be criminal is the debt that the taxpayer will be left with from unpaid loans run up by the commercial broadcaster. It might also be said that is criminal that the delays in Mux 2 being launched is down to nobody else wanting to pay mux costs and the viewing public being perhaps deprived of higher quality bit rates.

joceadaigh

STB wrote: »

I have been watching Irish DVB-T it since 2007 and the BT/DCENR trials.

You can't say that was a public service by any stretch of the imagination.

STB wrote: »

Free to Air Irish Digital TV has been on air since 1 August 2008. Your "Launched" date was political hat waving.

Broadcasting the service without certified equipment again means your 2008 dates is premature for a public service. Just because you as a fanatic could watch the trials does make them any more than that. The fact is we have a very poor DTV service that was only made available the general public when the certification and sale of Saorview boxes started.

The Cush

joceadaigh wrote: »

I'm gonna presume that the new channel lineup will be.

RTE ONE HD - New HD
RTE TWO HD
TV3
TG4
RTE News Now
3e
RTEjr
RTE One +1
RTE Two +1 - replaces RTE One SD
TV3 +1 - New SD
TG4 +1 - New SD

There won't be an RTE Two +1, TV3 +1 or TG4 +1.

RTÉ 1 HD, maybe TG4 HD and an Oireachtas Channel at some point.

joceadaigh

STB wrote: »

You cannot waste bandwidth by hiding anything. Infact can we give up this hidden channels stuff. The transport streams are broadcast in the open. There is no EIT data association with them.

I'm not an expert on this by any means, but it is my understanding that for the broadcast to work you need to fill the bandwidth available, ie. you can't just broadcast one station because it won't fill the available bandwidth, so a number are grouped together. Its clear RTENL have now set up the system to broadcast TG4 and TV3 in HD so why don't all parties involved get on with it.

These two test screens are hidden from view by the fact they don't have full data/names with them. Why does that upset you?

Do you mind me asking STB do you work for RTE or RTENL?

STB

joceadaigh wrote: »

You can't say that was a public service by any stretch of the imagination.

No it was a trial in 2007 but not closed by any stretch of the imagination as the PSB channels were available free to air with anyone who had a DVB-T tuner. In those days the stations broadcast with a mixture of MPEG4 and MPEG2 encoding. Certainly anyone with an IDTV would have been able to watch the stations.

joceadaigh wrote: »

Broadcasting the service without certified equipment again means your 2008 dates is premature for a public service. Just because you as a fanatic could watch the trials does make them any more than that. The fact is we have a very poor DTV service that was only made available the general public when the certification and sale of Saorview boxes started.

It doesn't actually. RTE published the certification specs for Irish DTT in 2008. The majority of IDTV manufactured since 2009 met the spec by default. Certainly in 2008, an informed consumer would have known what to buy. People watching since 2008 certainly weren't just broadcast engineers, anoraks and "fanatics".

joceadaigh wrote: »

I'm not an expert on this by any means, but it is my understanding that for the broadcast to work you need to fill the bandwidth available, ie. you can't just broadcast one station because it won't fill the available bandwidth, so a number are grouped together. Its clear RTENL have now set up the system to broadcast TG4 and TV3 in HD so why don't all parties involved get on with it.

These two test screens are hidden from view by the fact they don't have full data/names with them. Why does that upset you?

Do you mind me asking STB do you work for RTE or RTENL?

I'm not an expert myself, but I do have my own views from following developments. No I do not work for RTE. I am no RTE apologist either, although I see how you could see that differently. For all their faults, when it comes to the network they have singularly built at substancial costs I hate to see people pointing the finger at them when it is clear that there is "stuff" outside their control that influences the next steps for Saorview.

RTE "set it up" as there were EU commitments to switch off analogue television. The switching on of Mux 2 is due to an overcongested and compressed Mux 1, that certainly couldnt take another HD channel. Full bandwidth does not have to be used on Mux 2, but it would make sense to only switch it on when everyone is on board and costs are split. Sadlyy we may only see one new channel in RTE one HD until those long protracted negotiations over carriage fee are finally agreed.

The Cush

joceadaigh wrote: »

Saorview was only launched in May 2011. There was no public service digital tv till then.

The pre-launch engineering test transmissions started on 5th Aug 2008 and continued as the the transmitters were upgrade for DTT. My local transmitters started test transmissions on the 4th and 5th March 2009.

From the end of Oct 2010 the engineering test transmissions became the live operational readiness testing phase with all the analogue channels there plus 3e and RTÉ News Now, the other channels were added in early 2011 and RTÉ 2 switching to HD in Dec 2010.

Legislation required the DTT service "to be operational and available free-to-air to approximately 90 per cent of the population by 31 October 2010"

The service was officially launched in May 2011.

joceadaigh

I have to completely disagree with your last post STB

There were thousands of people who purchased a Digital TV between 2008 and right through 2012 that are no good here without a STB. You can't blame them for that because they weren't an informed consumer.

I asked in a number of electronic shops which of their tvs were MPEG4 and none of them knew what I meant. When I asked if they would work on the irish digital platform I was told any of their digital tvs would work. That was a lie. I knew exactly what I was talking about but many of the larger retailers had no idea themselves. Any normal consumer who bought a TV with MPEG4 up to 2011 was lucky, and only when Saorview certified products came out did people know what to look for.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

If Tg4 (a seperate PSB) and TV3 (a private commercial Tv station) want to broadcast in HD on the muxes they will have to agree payment terms with 2RN, the network provider.

For clarity, the broadcasters pay RTÉ to multiplex the channels and services, RTÉ in turn pay 2RN to transmit the multiplex. RTÉ is the Mux 1 & 2 licencee.

ComReg issued two DTT multiplex licences to RTÉ, one in December 2007 the other in May 2011, which conveys the rights of use to spectrum in the ultra high frequency (UHF) band to provide DTT. - See more at: http://www.comreg.ie/radio_spectrum/digital_broadcasting.542.517.html#sthash.F5SJgHad.dpuf

STB

joceadaigh wrote: »

I have to completely disagree with your last post STB

There were thousands of people who purchased a Digital TV between 2008 and right through 2012 that are no good here without a STB. You can't blame them for that because they weren't an informed consumer.

I asked in a number of electronic shops which of their tvs were MPEG4 and none of them knew what I meant. When I asked if they would work on the irish digital platform I was told any of their digital tvs would work. That was a lie. I knew exactly what I was talking about but many of the larger retailers had no idea themselves. Any normal consumer who bought a TV with MPEG4 up to 2011 was lucky, and only when Saorview certified products came out did people know what to look for.

This board has a multitude of posts on compatibilty queries going back to 2008. The majority of my initial posts when I joined in August 2008 were advice based on this very subject.

Yes electrical retailers initially were useless. But there representative organisation (CEDA) were told what they should be doing even back then!

MPEG4 H264 chips were standard from TV's manufactured by major brands from 2009 on. This is largely due to the pan european nature of how TV's are sold and that is how H264 DVB-T was largely being delivered across Europe. This didnt stop large UK retailers dumping old stock here or cheap non compatible TV's from being sold.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

I have several boxes both Linux and non Linux. I also have a Samsung LCD with a DVB-T tuner set to the UK to turn on the MHEG engine, so logical channel numbering is in the 800s.

The Linux box disregards locical channel numbering.

For those of us that use Saorview and non-Saorview TVs using Ireland as the country/region we regarded the test channels at LCNs 12-15 as "hidden" because they were skipped as we flicked up and down the channels and the Saorview approved Walker PVR also described them as "hidden" during a retune. Using UK as the region removes any Saorview/Ireland rectrictions on the 4 "hidden" channels.

Jpmarn

Mux 2 seem to be staying on air today from Maghera.

joceadaigh

STB, I was just thinking about what you were saying about the cost of transmitting HD channels not being met by TG4 and TV3, I'm just wondering if I'm supposed to believe that broadcasting over DVB-T is 7 times more expensive than analogue.

Do you know the actual cost of broadcasting DVB-T as aposed to analogue. I would think the result would mean its cheaper per station.

I do understand there is an initial investment to get the system up and running but that another story.

Peter Rhea

joceadaigh wrote: »

I'm just wondering if I'm supposed to believe that broadcasting over DVB-T is 7 times more expensive than analogue..

Where did you get the '7 times' figure?

glimmerman123

With the chances of TG4 HD launching next week i wonder does this mean that 2RN may have reduced it's carriage fees or maybe TG4 have agreed to pay the full asking price 2RN are asking for carriage?

joceadaigh

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Where did you get the '7 times' figure?

There are currently 7 station broadcast on MUX1.

The Cush

glimmerman123 wrote: »

With the chances of TG4 HD launching next week i wonder does this mean that 2RN may have reduced it's carriage fees or maybe TG4 have agreed to pay the full asking price 2RN are asking for carriage?

That process is still ongoing - http://www.comreg.ie/publications/response_to_consultation_and_decision_notice_-_broadcasting_transmission_services_in_ireland.583.104423.p.html

stereomatic

The Cush wrote: »

My brother has a non-Saorview Philips TV with a user interface like that, found it very user unfriendly and required the TV to be installed with UK as the country/region to allow MHEG-5 Aertel to work. Does RTÉ's Aertel service work in the Ireland setting with that TV?

I've a Samsung LE32B550 and based on this information I tried UK scan and hey presto Aertel is working however due to channel order and the internet I realised I could live without Aertel

Souriau

I been looking at the TS data and the reason why some channels are hidden are due to no EIT in the data stream, no Event Information Time.
Only 3 channels have EIT and that is 11, 17 & 18.
the rest including radio channels have no EIT and therefore not on the EPG listing.

The Cush

Souriau wrote: »

I been looking at the TS data and the reason why some channels are hidden are due to no EIT in the data stream, no Event Information Time.
Only 3 channels have EIT and that is 11, 17 & 18.
the rest including radio channels have no EIT and therefore not on the EPG listing.

That explains the lack of listings in the epg but doesn't explain why these particular channels cannot be accessed normally as you move up and down the channels even though they are there in the mux. The following piece of data is missing from the Program Map Table (PMT) for the "hidden" channels only in the TS data you emailed yesterday

Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B PID 1002 (0x03ea)
Descriptor: Stream Identifier Descriptor
Descriptor: Defined in ISO/IEC 13818-6 Descriptor
Descriptor: Data Broadcast ID Descriptor

For example when the Mux 1 snapshot was taken (1910hrs) RTÉjr was off-air and its mux space used by RTÉ1 +1 the above piece of ISO data only continued to be part of the Mux1 PMT TS data for RTÉjr, the LCN/channel could be accessed normally and wasn't skipped when off-air and I'm sure the same applies to RTÉ1 +1 when RTÉjr is on-air.

Program Number: 7/1107 RTÉjr
PCR PID: 0x1ffe

Stream Type: 0x0b ISO/IEC 13818-6 type B PID 1003 (0x03eb)
Descriptor: Stream Identifier Descriptor
Descriptor: Defined in ISO/IEC 13818-6 Descriptor
Descriptor: Data Broadcast ID Descriptor