MUX 2 launch date ?

Elmo

joceadaigh wrote: »

There are currently 7 station broadcast on MUX1.

I would assume that the cost of a HD channel is 3 times greater than an SD one. HD ~ 3SD.

One major problem that I have with 2RN was the pricing, which suggested that if only one channel appeared on Mux 2 that channel alone would have to cover the cost of the transmission of the entire Mux rather than either just 1/3 for a HD service or 1/9 for an SD service. (based on the current Mux 1 set up).

The Cush

Elmo wrote: »

One major problem that I have with 2RN was the pricing, which suggested that if only one channel appeared on Mux 2 that channel alone would have to cover the cost of the transmission of the entire Mux rather than either just 1/3 for a HD service or 1/9 for an SD service. (based on the current Mux 1 set up).

Since April 2011 the charges are calculated on a per platform basis

The BAI Executive was advised by RTÉNL on Tuesday 12th April that the annual transmission costs for content providers on the RTÉ DTT Multiplexes would now be calculated on a platform basis. The total DTT platform cost of between €8 and €11m annually would be divided between the content providers on the platform and not on a per multiplex basis. Costs would be calculated based on the actual data capacity used by each content provider divided by the total data capacity in use on the two multiplexes. The costs would increase or decrease annually based on the total number of content providers on the platform. In effect, this would mean that RTÉNL would receive a guaranteed income each year, while any spare or reserved capacity would be paid for by all operators on the platform. A content provider therefore would have a variable and unpredictable annual transmission cost for a standard definition channel of between circa €600K and €1m per annum depending on the total number of content providers on the platform and whether analogue television is still on air. Similarly for a HD channel, the annual DTT transmission costs would be variable and could range from circa €1.2m to €2.4m per annum. For radio services carried on DTT, the annual costs again would be variable year on year and range from €50k to €100k per annum. All of these costs have been calculated by the BAI Executive using a spreadsheet calculation tool provided by RTÉNL and using different scenarios of platform usage

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=73928450#post73928450

Rick_

stereomatic wrote: »

I've a Samsung LE32B550 and based on this information I tried UK scan and hey presto Aertel is working however due to channel order and the internet I realised I could live without Aertel

I have a Samsung Smart TV and it is set to UK and Aertel works fine for me. If it is set to UK you get the "Freeview" logo at the top left, but if you set it to Ireland you get the "Saorview" logo instead. That seems to be the only difference as all interactive services are available on both country settings.

Sam Russell

I understood that one analogue channel cost in the region of €3m per annum, with one DTT mux costing about the same. Add the cost of the DTT infrastructure, that would suggest that the cost to TV3 and TG4 would be basically the same for one HD channel on DTT that they were paying on analogue. An extra SD channel for each would not add that much.

So what is the fuss about?

Elmo

The Cush wrote: »

Since April 2011 the charges are calculated on a per platform basis

I still have an issue with that. Why should 2RN get a guaranteed income if they cannot sell their product. IMO it would be like a Hotel charging more during the off peak season than during the peak season.

If I book a room the price is based on the number of rooms available and the number of people staying in the hotel but the price must gaurentee an income for the hotel.

So Reginald T. Emerson books a party for 4 people, one requiring a Presidential suite, while Tom Vaughan III books for 2 people and Teresa Glynn IIII books a single room where there is a possibility of 4 Presidential suites and 6 single rooms. 3 Presidential suites and 3 single rooms aren't open because the hotel cannot afford to have them open during off peak season, but the hotel is guaranteed the cost of the other rooms. Tom Vaughan announces that his other party will not be able to stay meaning that Reginald and Teresa's price go up in price to meet the cost of the East Wing of the hotel! (Though Tom also sees the cost of his room increase).

joceadaigh

Sam Russell wrote: »

I understood that one analogue channel cost in the region of €3m per annum, with one DTT mux costing about the same. Add the cost of the DTT infrastructure, that would suggest that the cost to TV3 and TG4 would be basically the same for one HD channel on DTT that they were paying on analogue. An extra SD channel for each would not add that much.

So what is the fuss about?

I'm trying to figure out what the fuss is with getting TG4 and TV3 broadcast in HD ASAP.

As per mux 2 current setup, 3 HD stations fit on one MUX. An annual cost of €3m for the mux devided by the those three HD stations alone is only €1m. So this is not too far from the €1.2m in the Cush's post above.

How on earth could anyone sign an agreement saying your transmittions fee may increase by 2 fold for reasons out of your control.

As for the infrastructure costs, that's another arguement. I have no idea how much it cost RTE/2RN to date, but I'm sure a huge portion was complete waste and TG4 and TV3 should not be expected to cover that waste.

StreetLight

Paddy C wrote: »

I have a Samsung Smart TV and it is set to UK and Aertel works fine for me. If it is set to UK you get the "Freeview" logo at the top left, but if you set it to Ireland you get the "Saorview" logo instead. That seems to be the only difference as all interactive services are available on both country settings.

I tried that with my own Samsung Smart TV, but when I set the country to UK, I found the subtitles didn't work.

Onthe3rdDay

This policy gives TV3 wiggle room. No other business in this day and age would agree to paying for transmission costs that could double without notice.

The fees only come down if competitors come on air. You could have a crazy situation where another broadcaster agrees to go on air and after 12 months the broadcaster goes bust or decides to go off saorview. They stop broadcasting and all of a sudden TV3's carriage fees go up.

Now this is unlikely to happen. The only extra station to go on will probably be Dail TV. However, it's the kind of point that allows TV3 to moan and groan for months and years and much as I hate to say it, they've some justification.

Peter Rhea

Elmo wrote: »

IMO it would be like a Hotel charging more during the off peak season than during the peak season.

A hotel can lay off staff & take other cost-cutting measures during off-season. A DVB-T mux. doesn't really come with those kind of options.

Sam Russell

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

This policy gives TV3 wiggle room. No other business in this day and age would agree to paying for transmission costs that could double without notice.

The fees only come down if competitors come on air. You could have a crazy situation where another broadcaster agrees to go on air and after 12 months the broadcaster goes bust or decides to go off saorview. They stop broadcasting and all of a sudden TV3's carriage fees go up.

Now this is unlikely to happen. The only extra station to go on will probably be Dail TV. However, it's the kind of point that allows TV3 to moan and groan for months and years and much as I hate to say it, they've some justification.

The rules are drawn up so that a fee can be set that is fair to all broadcasters. The rate is set each year, and could be fixed for a few years into the future. We have ywo muxes in play here, and if we went to three, the additional cost would be small. Goint from one to two is the worst time for this.

There are two models that could be employed. 2RN set a price and see how many takers it can get, and either makes or loses money. Alternatively, a 'reasonable' margin is agreed by the regulator and 2RN charges out at cost plus the reasonable margin. It is the latter that has been chosen. With the current crop of channels, they all save money over the cost of analogue, as DTT is significantly cheaper.

First rule of Irish broadcasting - TV3 will moan and groan.

whitebriar

I'd imagine if 2rn were subject to real world competition like hotels are,they would have to cut costs like everyone else though.
Regulation is supposed to make up for that where competition fails/isn't possible.

Ergo,in my opinion tv3 should be allowed to remain sd if they wish and pay accordingly,letting the viewers walk if they wish.

There is a fair point to be made here,that as users of a multiplex,tv3 should have been surveyed prior to the business model for dtt being finalised.
But then again,that's a bit much to ask for given,RTEnl went ahead with setting up a 4 mux infrastructure for a pay tv platform /insane vanity project that was alwaysgoing to be a non runner.
Expecting tv3,a commercial entity to pay for that faux pax is wrong in my opinion.

Onthe3rdDay

Sam Russell wrote: »

First rule of Irish broadcasting - TV3 will moan and groan.

Agreed.

pa990

I'm just waiting to start the

"MUX 3 launch date? " thread

Elmo

Just a few points

- The BAI are completely lost, they were very dissatisfied with the level of interest in the EoI for new services on the public service MUX basically saying that most new entrants were not PSB in nature, but at the same time allow 3e to be considered PSB as they have no other content.

- Saorview as we all know is at breaking point after one year on air there has been little change to the line up other than the deletion of RTÉ Choice.

- ComReg and 2RN seem to be applying the same logic to the PSB muxes as they are to the Commercial Muxes. If the commercial muxes get up an running with a PayTV operator I could understand why 2RN would want that provider to pay for each site they plan to use, however to apply the same logic to FreeTV is strange since any new FreeTV service is reliant on advertising not subscriptions.

- ComReg, the BAI and 2RN should set channel price at a fixed SD and HD level, regardless of the numbers of channels available. As pointed out 2RN continue to provide tests on the 2nd Mux from time to time, how much is this costing them? Test the 2nd mux with Community TV, Oireachtas TV and TG4HD.

- TV3 will complain, and we all have issues with TV3. There attitude to Saorview is strange. They are unwilling to admit that without Saorview 3e would not be getting the kind of audience it receives.

- Allowing new Irish competitors into the Irish market is good for TV3, RTÉ and TG4 as they might hold on to the advertising revenue currently leaving the country and may prevent Multinational Broadcasters from selling advertising as the market becomes flooded with Irish versions of such services. IMO there is no real reason why a service like UKTV GOLD* from an Irish broadcaster would not make a return, so long as it appears on all platforms (Soarview, UPC and Sky).

- TG4 HD was badly developed, in 2011 they got a grant from the Dept of Comms (DCERN) to role out HD, but such a channel didn't appear on the report from the BAI into the EoI's it received. It shows the complete lack of communication between all stakeholders.

- The fact that the BAI have to carry out a review of RTÉ TWO's daytime schedule before allowing RTÉ remove RTÉjr from that channel is just a complete waste of time.

*An Irish company buys rights to classic British sitcoms like Fawlty Towers, Reginald Perrin etc not an Irish service with a continuous loop of Leave it to Mrs O'Brien, Extra Extra, Upwardly Mobile and The Cassidy's!

Peter Rhea

Elmo wrote: »

- ComReg and 2RN seem to be applying the same logic to the PSB muxes as they are to the Commercial Muxes. If the commercial muxes get up an running with a PayTV operator I could understand why 2RN would want that provider to pay for each site they plan to use, however to apply the same logic to FreeTV is strange since any new FreeTV service is reliant on advertising not subscriptions.

'Pay for each site they plan to use' How is this 'logic' currently being applied?

Elmo

Peter Rhea wrote: »

'Pay for each site they plan to use' How is this 'logic' currently being applied?

Sorry poor choice of words.

The logic that Mux 1, Mux 2 and Mux 3 cost a certain amount to run thus if only 10 channel appear those 10 channels pay for each mux regardless of spectrum use.

On the other had a PayTV operator would have to pay for each of the Muxes it provides regardless of the numbers of channel, most likely a PayTV operator would fill muxes up with as many UK TV channels as possible.

Peter Rhea

Elmo wrote: »

The logic that Mux 1, Mux 2 and Mux 3 cost a certain amount to run thus if only 10 channel appear those 10 channels pay for each mux regardless of spectrum use.

What each channel pays is related to spectrum use. Their share of the cost of any unused spectrum is linked to what they are using.

Elmo

Peter Rhea wrote: »

What each channel pays is related to spectrum use. Their share of the cost of any unused spectrum is linked to what they are using.

But it still means that 2RN are gaurentee the price of the MUX, regardless of how you divide up the unused spectrum.

If Mux 2 appeared tomorrow RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 would pay twice what they pay for with just one Mux. (no additional channel or HD services).

It also means that broadcasters can choose the minimum use of spectrum for their service. e.g. the current picture.

Peter Rhea

Elmo wrote: »

If Mux 2 appeared tomorrow RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 would pay twice what they pay for with just one Mux. (no additional channel or HD services).

There is no point starting the 2nd mux. if the capacity isn't needed.

Elmo

Peter Rhea wrote: »

There is no point starting the 2nd mux. if the capacity isn't needed.

Am I right to say the following:-

I was taking it as an example working it out if Oireachtas TV appeared on MUX 2 alone

RTE use 67% of MUX 1
TV3 use 22% of MUX 1
TG4 use 11% of MUX 1

Oirechtas would use 11% of MUX 2
meaning RTÉ, TV3, TG4 and Oirechtas would pay for the unused 89% of MUX 2

I work it out in the quick example that
RTÉ pay 53% for Mux2
TV3 pay 17% for Mux2
TG4 pay 9% for Mux2
Oireachtas 18% pay for Mux2 (including 11% they use)

Now it is unlikely the oirechtas will launch before RTÉ ONE HD either way TV3 will complain as they will be paying for spectrum that is not in use, now it does force TV3 and TG4 into providing their services in HD but that is the only legitimate reasoning for such a pricing structure.

Percentages based on TV channels only and on the basis that SD channels keep their current quality. (9SD channels fit 1 mux).

Sam Russell

There is no proper market for Saorview as there has been massive interference from DCENR, Comreg, and the BAI. RTE are forced into running 4 channels, two of which are completely hobbled with no possibility of advertising revenue or programming. RTE NN is just a repeat/simulcast of news broadcasts. RTE jr has no advertising (properly imo) and RTE + 1 should be RTE plus.

So big surprise, 2RN have no customers.

Rick_

I tuned in MUX 2 from Clermont on my Samsung TV in the kitchen as a test and it memorised 18 channels from it. Is there anything actually launching tomorrow then or is this all bluster and we'll not see anything for another good few months/years yet?

Sam Russell

I expect nothing to happen tomorrow other than mux2 will be on. This will allow RTE to launch RTE 1 HD if they chhoose to, but they have said it will launch either before or immediately after Christmas/New Year. They are likely to do this with a small trumpet and a tiny fanfare - a bit like they did when they launched Saorview.

There will be nothing stopping TG4 or TV3 launching their HD channels, if they agree fees with 2RN and RTE. However, that is another story.

Johnboy1951

Maghera ....... on #15 there is an Irish language audio stream presently ...... no name but identified here as noname-sid-0x839 on my HTPC with TVHeadend.

There is also audio on some of the Mux2 radio channels.

Blue Crystal

Only after retuning by coincidence tonight and noticed three test cards one HD two SD ; I take it a launch is imminent?

Peter Rhea

Elmo wrote: »

I was taking it as an example working it out if Oireachtas TV appeared on MUX 2 alone

RTE use 67% of MUX 1
TV3 use 22% of MUX 1
TG4 use 11% of MUX 1

Oirechtas would use 11% of MUX 2

That would be 55.5% of the full capacity in use. I have it that payment for the unused 44.5% would be split 60/20/10/10 RTE/TV3/TG4/Oir., based on your example.

Onthe3rdDay

Peter Rhea wrote: »

That would be 55.5% of the full capacity in use. I have it that payment for the unused 44.5% would be split 60/20/10/10 RTE/TV3/TG4/Oir., based on your example.

That's absolutely nuts if true. (I'm not doubting you!) That would mean that TV3 would have to pay for something they're not using. The danger here is that at some point TV3 decide to leave Saorview and just put out their signal via cable and Satellite. In theory they'd still be reaching 82 percent of their market. With TV3 not on Saorview, RTE, TG4 and Dail TV would have to make up the shortfall.

Now of course TV3 have the same risk but RTE and TG4 aren't going to leave the system.

This actually puts TV3 in a stronger position than first imagined. If they left Saorview in the morning 2 of the 6 full stations would disappear and there's no white knight to take over. No one could be granted a license until they went through a full open competition. So Saorview could be hobbled for 18 months to ten years (remember this is Ireland.)

Peter Rhea

Well, it's the way the total cost over 2 muxes would be divided up, if only 55.5% of the capacity is in use, based on the figures used in Elmo's example & the method of payment calculation mentioned a few posts back.

RTE using 33.5% of the total capacity available but, with only 55.5% total actually in use, they have to cover 60% of the cost to transmit the 2 muxes. In the same way, TV3's 11% translates into 20%, the 5.5% of the others to 10%.

It isn't a realistic example. They aren't going to run 2 muxes so far below capacity.

Mr. Rabbit

Blue Crystal wrote: »

Only after retuning by coincidence tonight and noticed three test cards one HD two SD ; I take it a launch is imminent?

Yep, launch is tomorrow.

The Cush

Blue Crystal wrote: »

Only after retuning by coincidence tonight and noticed three test cards one HD two SD ; I take it a launch is imminent?

We have no official information, those testcards have been there for the last 2 weeks.

This is the only official information we have regarding a Mux 1 frequency change at 5 small relays - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87025550&postcount=1136