Men screwed by Divorce

metrovelvet

iptba wrote: »

I don't know about US law but in Ireland we have no fault divorce so that wouldn't play a part (AFAIK).

I don't know whether bringing that in to the system would be too problematic or not but I know if a wife of mine cheated and then she walked away with a large settlement, I'd be frustrated.

We have no fault and fault. We have everything! The divorce of your choice! No fault takes a one year minimum seperation. My friends husband sped up their divorce under cruelty or something like that, 'didnt return phone calls' listed as the reason.

K-9

Stheno wrote: »

That's completely incorrect as a statement in reference to Irish Law.

Spouses of either gender can be compelled to pay spousal maintenance until either remarriage/civil partnership or death of the spouse receiving the maintenance.

The rates of spousal maintenance (seperate from maintenance for children) can be up to €500 per week in the District Court and higher if taken to other courts. Personally I know three couples with no children who have seperated/divorced, and in all three cases spousal maintenance is being paid, and it's a mix of both men and women paying the maintenance.

Note particularly that even after divorce, if I am divorced my former spouse can apply for an adjustment of the order, e.g If I won the lottery they could apply for maintenance to be adjusted upward to reflect that.

From Citizens Information

It is fair to point out the laws aren't sexist, indeed as more and more women become the "bread winner" and men stay at home due to the recession, the same law applies.

The problem is the archaic principles such as revisiting pensions, future earnings etc. For such a recent divorce law, 15 odd years, it's amazing how old fashioned it is. My suspicion would be Catholic Church influences.

carlybabe1

iptba wrote: »

@carlybabe1, I am sorry to hear your situation. It sounds difficult.


However, nothing to do with your situation per se but the following situation strikes me as suggesting there can be problems with the system, that it is a bit arbitrary: that the judge had the power to increase the maintenance order considerably not on the basis of any change of financial circumstances but just as some sort of punishment (and the corollary would be possibly in some situations judges may then set orders at a higher level initially because he/she didn't like something or other)

At the time he was working two jobs but only paying tax in one, and he was claiming to earn a lot less than he was. My solicitor asked for (i cant remember the name of it) proof of his income, for want of a better word, she wanted to compel a tax receipt to prove he was lying about his income, so although he didnt grant that, he did threaten to grant it if ye were in the court again. In other words what he said was, if I see your name on the dockets again, be sure to bring a copy of your p60 (??) and to me he said any evidence you can get that he is in fact working the way you say.
I have had experience of judges ruling, not with the facts in front of him/her, but because they get irritable with either the solicitors or one or other of the parties.

not in a financial area, i mean with regards to access etc.

carlybabe1

discus wrote: »

Jesus. I don't think I'd handle any of the situations some of the boardsie have reiterated, but yours seems the hardest by far. I dread to think of how I'd cope under that pressure.

+++1, It was an awful time, dont know how I didnt lose my mind. In the end i just had to let it go, I had to let everything go, and stop the pulling and tugging with the material stuff. It was a relief when I did, he had nothing to hang over my head like the sword of Damocles. He done much worse stuff than that too but funnily enough its all water under the bridge. He takes his son nearly every weekend, hes a good dad to him, he has met my partner, and when he comes to collect him, he'll come in and have a cuppa

The Butler

Hi all,
Can anyone please help me here, really really fustrated !!!!! Divorced father, I have custody of all four children. Two of the children are not bio-logicially mine, however I embrace the opportunity in raising them. I had what I taught was a maintenence order,now the judge says it is a maintenence order to be paid to ke by way of the Child Benefit.....CRAZY, this order was in 2005, got the child benefit from her pretty much every month, so the question I am asking is....Can I persue the mother for her to pay back maintenence out of hed own earnings ? Hence, my login name...The Butler. !!! Would love to hear some opinions on this please....

K-9

The Butler wrote: »

Hi all,
Can anyone please help me here, really really fustrated !!!!! Divorced father, I have custody of all four children. Two of the children are not bio-logicially mine, however I embrace the opportunity in raising them. I had what I taught was a maintenence order,now the judge says it is a maintenence order to be paid to ke by way of the Child Benefit.....CRAZY, this order was in 2005, got the child benefit from her pretty much every month, so the question I am asking is....Can I persue the mother for her to pay back maintenence out of hed own earnings ? Hence, my login name...The Butler. !!! Would love to hear some opinions on this please....

My understanding is that the person who has the main care of the children, as in you, is entitled to maintenance for children. You should apply to get the child benefit, can't see why she is getting this and handing it over to you, it should be your payment. If you ring your local district court clerk they can help you as regards the forms needed to claim maintenance.

Bosco54

solicitors are obliged to advise their client on mediation. husbands -V- wifes or wife -V-husbands should put their priorities first. Generally there are kids to most couples seeking divorce or separations. often there are grandchildren to the parties in the application to divorce or separations and should consider the effect on children or grandchildren before going to engage solicitors or barristers.

Mediation can be the better option to get a divorce or separation and least expensive.

regards

Bosco 54

Bosco54

K-9 wrote: »

My understanding is that the person who has the main care of the children, as in you, is entitled to maintenance for children. You should apply to get the child benefit, can't see why she is getting this and handing it over to you, it should be your payment. If you ring your local district court clerk they can help you as regards the forms needed to claim maintenance.

are you divorced or separated ??
did you or her make the application for the divorce or separation ??
did either of you use a solicitor or barrister ??

regards

bosco 54

K-9

Bosco54 wrote: »

are you divorced or separated ??
did you or her make the application for the divorce or separation ??
did either of you use a solicitor or barrister ??

regards

bosco 54

No, no and yes, a solicitor.

I reread and the Butler is already receiving maintenance, except it's child benefit! You should be getting that anyway as you are the one looking after them. You can ring the court clerk and look for a form to vary the maintenance, you already get it, you just want it adjusted.

Mediation is great if you have somebody who is willing to listen!

Bosco54

you need to be one year living apart to get a separation and 4 out of the last 5 years to get a divorce. You can be living apart even under the same roof.

it is possible to get a divorce or separation using mediation with or without solicitors.

either party can make an application. it is an option for you to pay the full costs of mediation divorce as a way of getting her to attend mediation.
If ye fail at mediation nothing prevents either of you going to solicitors.

Judges have referred cases back to mediation.

Bosco54

Splofe

Hi everyone, I have a lack of knowledge in regards a fathers rights after separation but from what I have researched I am deeply appalled by the complete degradation the man has to go through, here's the basics of my story:

I am a 22 year old female with 2 younger sisters who's own father didn't pay a dime when I moved from England to Ireland when I was 12. He started a relationship with an evil cow who always turned him against us and I witnessed her scratching my mothers face to a pulp and hit against her car roof when I was around 6, classy!

I always made a promise that I'd be a great mum/step mum and now I am with an amazing man for the last 2 years who happens to have 3 lovely children and I enjoy every minute of it.

The only problem is he is financially exhausted due to his ex asking for pay outs the whole time on top of maintenance and he pays her half of back to school costs. In the court order it states that school holidays be shared yet we take the kids for a week or two at a time and she never does.

The reason they broke up is she had an affair and got pregnant then led her husband/my now boyfriend to believe the child was his!! He does the decent thing and wants to raise the child as his fourth, she throws it in his face and he rented nearby while paying her mortgage too. The real fathers car would be outside the house when the 3 kids got collected, lousy! She has a full time job.

He has the kids 50/50 if not more due to us having the kiddies for holidays, I love the kids to bits but I'd love if the money she clawed off him could go towards us doing things with the kids as a lot of the time I lend him a few quid for petrol, food and treats for the kiddies because the poor man can't survive. Oh yeah she received free legal aid in court yet my man will be paying the legal fees off til the end!! Where's the justice in that??!

We plan on marrying and having a child of our own within the next few years and I'll be damned if her greed will affect the upbringing of our child.

It just goes to show how a genuinely great man and father is left struggling while some evil pathetic excuse of a woman who can't keep her legs together thrives in benefits and hand outs and still has the cheek to send bitter text messages to my boyfriend!

Thanks, that feels better

py2006

Wow, reading through this thread would put me, a man, off getting married or having children.

The thought of having to pay spousal maintenance is appalling and sickens me. Unless they are in dire straits and I have a significant income. But that would be my decision.

This might be controversial but I think its wrong for a guy to be forced to pay child maintenance if the women and her new boyfriend have significant incomes. I am not suggesting the man doesn't see his children, bring them places, buy them stuff the need etc.

Splofe

I'm not surprised you're put off getting married! Some women (& men) are just out for themselves regardless of it being their fault the marriage broke up in the first place. I want to marry my boyfriend eventually and even if it didn't work out I wouldn't have the cheek to grab everything he worked so hard for!

Some people ie. his ex are just greedy, spiteful and desperate!!

Wibbs

py2006 wrote: »

Wow, reading through this thread would put me, a man, off getting married or having children.

You wouldnt be alone in that. I know plenty of men(myself included) that would be very dubious of the whole business. In the US there's been a major change in the stats in the last 20 years with the traditional early marriage age creeping up and up. It's near 30 at the moment, 20 years back it was 19/20. At one time Ireland had the highest age for marriage in the world at 30 for men and 28 for women. That appears to be creeping up too.

In the US this change has been described as a "Marriage strike" http://wikibin.org/articles/marriage-strike.html where a noticeable proportion of men have chosen to avoid it. In the US the average divorce rate is around 50% and men get really shafted over there. Much worse than here. Their interpretation of "no fault" divorce plus more ambulance chasing lawyers means a man can wake up one morning outa the blue and find his life financially and personally ruined. Our rate of divorce is a helluva lot lower. Americans seem to rush into marriages more, whereas an Irish engagement can last a decade. US men divorced once avoid a second marriage like the very plague. Well the failure rates for the second go are even higher.

I can defo understand a marriage strike in the US alright. If you were told that when you hopped on a plane your chances of making it to your destination was 50% I really doubt you'd buy a ticket. In Ireland like I say it's less an issue, but having watched too many relationships go south(most of them in ones life) and even those ones who do go the distance and lead to marriage often get rocky, mundane, stifling or just fail, then personally I'd avoid marriage like the plague myself.

That said personally I don't think I'm suited to the institution anyway. Maybe when I was younger, less cynical yea. But today? Not so much at all. Then again maybe I'm just falling into that trap a lot of men after 35 fall into, being set in my ways. In other areas I've always been open to new stuff, but in relationships I think I've burnt out an admittedly short fuse. I can defo see some couples rare enough though they may be work out really well for both.

amacachi

Will it matter soon? I thought with some legislation coming up that anyone in a relationship for a certain amount of time will have the same rights (read: right to have your stuff nicked in court) as a married couple and that it's opt-out rather than opt-in, which should make for some interesting conversations.

iptba

Thanks for sharing that, Spolfe.

amacachi wrote: »

Will it matter soon? I thought with some legislation coming up that anyone in a relationship for a certain amount of time will have the same rights (read: right to have your stuff nicked in court) as a married couple and that it's opt-out rather than opt-in, which should make for some interesting conversations.

Has it not already been implemented? It was the last government who passed it. It was the Civil Partnership & Cohabitation Bill (or something close to that) - the same one that allows gay couples register as civil partners. So nearly all the focus was on that angle and there was very little discussion about the cohabitation part.

amacachi

iptba wrote: »

Thanks for sharing that, Spolfe.

Has it not already been implemented? It was the last government who passed it. It was the Civil Partnership & Cohabitation Bill (or something close to that) - the same one that allows gay couples register as civil partners. So nearly all the focus was on that angle and there was very little discussion about the cohabitation part.

It may well have already been implemented, I'm not certain. Like I said though, the conversation about opting out should be a lot of fun for people. :pac:

K-9

Came in at the start of the year AFAIK. The term is 5 years, 2 if children are involved.

foxyboxer

In my life I'd like to avoid the M&M's.

Marriage, Mortgage and Mini-me's.

iptba

I thought some might find this article of interest*:

"Deadbeat live-in partners could claim property" (Sunday Independent):
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/deadbeat-livein-partners-could-claim-property-3046352.html

Deadbeat live-in partners could claim property

Lawyers warn that Cohabitants Act may have created dangers where couples live together

Sunday March 11 2012

'DEADBEAT' boyfriends and girlfriends who contribute little to the household could end up making claims on their partner's incomes or even their properties thanks to cohabiting legislation, leading lawyers have claimed.

The Civil Partnership Act 2010, also known as the Cohabitants Act, which came into force last year, raises more questions than it answers, said Dublin-based solicitor Anthony Joyce.

etc.

* I didn't know where to post it. Not sure if the mods will be happy with me bringing up this old thread but where was I supposed to post it esp. as I'm guessing they might not have wanted a new thread on it either? Of course, if that's what they want, I'll be happy to oblige (or they can do it themselves if they prefer).

Mr. Loverman

A large part of the reason mean get screwed is because Ireland is still a bit sexist. The "pathetic" woman needs more because the "competent" man will be OK. The logic for giving the children to the woman (women are better with kids) is similar.

shopaholic01

iptba wrote: »

But with the Civil Partnership Bill last year, people (in virtually all cases, it's likely to be men based on past experience) can potentially get screwed without a marriage cert once they lived with somebody even if they don't have kids together. There was barely a whimper about it. In many other European countries, they have an opt-in system but this was barely mentioned at the time.


Think it applies here too but people aren't aware of it. Men get screwed because traditionally women were homemakers and relied on financial support after the divorce. Women will almost always get custody of children too. I'm a woman and I hate to say it but some women turn on the snots and tears, wheresas men stick to cold, hard facts. I sure this has some influence:rolleyes:

The law doesn't seem to allow for change at the mo. Solicitors can charge what they like but you should have gotten an estimate of costs when they agreed to represent you. I assume you have to pay a barrister as well. Query and haggle to get your costs down or 'drip feed them'. Also even if your ex was on legal aid I think they can claim something if property is sold etc.

The Butler

van der vart wrote: »

my divorce was strung out for years (12 ), by the other party, who was on free legal aid.
every court case was hampered by her not feeling well or not being able to cope ( the build up ) i was never given an estimate or quote from my solisitor, end of the day i was told i can have 35 % of my house when my youngest leaves home and a bill for 24k.
im paying maintenance, their mortage and trying to make a life for myself with a wonderful person who has put up with all this ****

Talk to me, i cant be the only bloke in Ireland to get double Fxxxed.
Solisitor and ex

Hi The Butler here,

I take it you hired a solicitor who was eager to flog you for every penny you had left. A couple of things trouble me, Did you furnish the courts with your "Statement of Means". In relation to solicitors and the system, you should go back to court to seek a vary maintenance order on affordability and not on your own, you can use a "McKenzie friend" for whom you can have in the court (Family Court Included) with you. You cannot take instruction from your friend however, you can have them help you morally and with notes. I have educated myself and beaten this female friendly system. I have now won custody of the children, notwithstanding the fact I am NOT the biological father of 2 of the 4 children. Life must go on, that includes YOUR life,

Regards,
The Butler.

The Corinthian

This study has probably been posted enough times on this subject.

I suggest that if you are in any way successful in your career, especially if you are unfortunate enough to be born with a Y-chromosome, you should consider emigrating to a country with less misandrist laws.

Given that it was financial considerations that almost certainly prompted this law, then a resultant brain drain may cause the political establishment to take note.