Kids and guns in south Armagh

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 5:35pm

Let's start with Dunloy, have fun debunking.

Looking at Dunloy, i can't say i am surprised. The Orange hall gets a terrible battering.

But of course you personally glorifying the loyalists and British army on here isn't?

Yet again, themmuns are wrong and have to change.

Spare us.

Again, this thread isn't about loyalists or the British army. No one is glorifying any of those.

Iwasfrozen · 23-03-2011 5:35pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We are sailing very close to Godwin...

As for the bold, ALL military traditions have that ffs.

People dress their kids in daft things all the time, and to repeat, I think the whole incident is stupid. However, I must have missed the thread were people condemned loyalists parading with kids in uniform, or the now completely perverse and pervasive poppy cult were condemned.

The actual issue here is a suspected murderer of innocent people trying to get the cops involved because a few kids were playing with replica guns at a museum and put on old 'Ra type uniforms. Its really not that big a deal.

Yes, all military traditions have that. But most militaries are legitimate. You mentioned Godwin's but at least German parents have the good grace not to dress their kids up as stormtroopers.

You said you think the incident is stupid but you haven't gone as far as to condemn these parents for their actions. Which no doubt you would have if these were unionist parents dressing their kids up as UVF. This indicative of bias on your part.

Of course it's a big deal these children are being taught about the IRA in glorified terms. It proves that it is impossible to raise a well rounded child in area's like south Armagh. You may not consider it a big deal but if I were a unionist I'd be worried about the day these kids are big enough to hold a real gun.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

What is the actual issue here? The replica guns, the clothes or the fact that Republicans still commerate their past?

The problem isn't with Republicans "commemorating"* their past. As Keith quite rightly pointed out the danger lies with parents glorifying the actions of the IRA to their children. Rather then bringing the children up with a balanced mindset and letting them make up their own mind when they're older.

*Not that I think republicans have much to commemorate but meh, that's free speech for ya.

danbohan · 23-03-2011 5:38pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Looking at Dunloy, i can't say i am surprised. The Orange hall gets a terrible battering.

Again, this thread isn't about loyalists or the British army. No one is glorifying any of those.

of course not , however you did post this , looks a tiny bit glorying to me

''I have to say, the uniform of the IRA sucks in comparison to the UVF uniform''

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 5:38pm

dlofnep wrote: »

I suppose they could dress up as worse..

Lets not bring the Nazi party into this. The republican movement doesn't really have a good record regarding the Nazis.

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 5:39pm

danbohan wrote: »

of course not , however you did post this , looks a tiny bit glorying to me

''I have to say, the uniform of the IRA sucks in comparison to the UVF uniform''

Already explained that. Look up.

danbohan · 23-03-2011 5:40pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, all military traditions have that. But most militaries are legitimate. You mentioned Godwin's but at least German parents have the good grace not to dress their kids up as stormtroopers.

You said you think the incident is stupid but you haven't gone as far as to condemn these parents for their actions. Which no doubt you would have if these were unionist parents dressing their kids up as UVF. This indicative of bias on your part.

Of course it's a big deal these children are being taught about the IRA in glorified terms. It proves that it is impossible to raise a well rounded child in area's like south Armagh. You may not consider it a big deal but if I were a unionist I'd be worried about the day these kids are big enough to hold a real gun.

The problem isn't with Republicans "commemorating"* their past. As Keith quite rightly pointed out the danger lies with parents glorifying the actions of the IRA to their children. Rather then bringing the children up with a balanced mindset and letting them make up their own mind when they're older.

*Not that I think republicans have much to commemorate but meh, that's free speech for ya.

You may not consider it a big deal but if I were a unionist I'd be worried about the day these kids are big enough to hold a real gun.

no what you as a unionist really needs to worry about is the day that they can vote because by then you will be the minority , enjoy

dlofnep · 23-03-2011 5:41pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Lets not bring the Nazi party into this. The republican movement doesn't really have a good record regarding the Nazis.

It has about the same record that the British Government has.

Iwasfrozen · 23-03-2011 5:44pm

danbohan wrote: »

You may not consider it a big deal but if I were a unionist I'd be worried about the day these kids are big enough to hold a real gun.

no what you as a unionist really needs to worry about is the day that they can vote because by then you will be the minority , enjoy

Problem? :cool:

danbohan · 23-03-2011 5:44pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Already explained that. Look up.

you did not explain keith , you backtracked , different .

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 5:45pm

dlofnep wrote: »

It has about the same record that the British Government has.

Which is? De Valera was sorry that Hitler died.

danbohan · 23-03-2011 5:46pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Lets not bring the Nazi party into this. The republican movement doesn't really have a good record regarding the Nazis.

well they dont march with them like you lot do with your good friends in the bnp

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 5:47pm

danbohan wrote: »

You may not consider it a big deal but if I were a unionist I'd be worried about the day these kids are big enough to hold a real gun.

no what you as a unionist really needs to worry about is the day that they can vote because by then you will be the minority , enjoy

The same resistence will be shown by the loyalist people as it was in the 70s, 80s and 90s. But that is kind of taking the thread off topic as to what is a rather shocking set of photos, i must say.

dlofnep · 23-03-2011 6:09pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Which is? De Valera was sorry that Hitler died.

De Valera didn't represent the Republican movement. And he wasn't sorry that Hitler died. He as a matter of diplomatic protocol offered condolences to the then German minister in Dublin. I highly doubt Dev was personally sorry to see the end of Hitler. A bit of intellectual rigor, please.

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 6:12pm

dlofnep wrote: »

De Valera didn't represent the Republican movement. And he wasn't sorry that Hitler died. He as a matter of diplomatic protocol offered condolences to the then German minister in Dublin. I highly doubt Dev was personally sorry to see the end of Hitler. A bit of intellectual rigor, please.

De Valera is one of the biggest republican men in history. I will go on what he said. Not what some think he meant.

dlofnep · 23-03-2011 6:15pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

De Valera is one of the biggest republican men in history. I will go on what he said. Not what some think he meant.

Dev was not a Republican. He sold out the Republic. You obviously know nothing about him. And it's not about what people "think" he said. The facts are quite clear - as a matter of diplomatic protocol, he offered condolences to the German Minister who was in Ireland at the time upon his death. There is a big difference between that and saying that Dev was personally sorry at Hitler's death.

If you can't differentiate between the two, then you're clearly misinformed at every historic level.

Now where were we about children wearing paramilitary uniforms? I suppose you would have no problems with children dressing up in British Army uniforms? You know, after all the murder that British Army got up to in Ireland? Or, with one of the most important royal members who is supposed to be a role model for young unionist children dressing up as a Nazi?

No condemnation there either? Only nationalists can do wrong in your eyes Keith.

PatsytheNazi · 23-03-2011 6:18pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

The same resistence will be shown by the loyalist people as it was in the 70s, 80s and 90s. But that is kind of taking the thread off topic as to what is a rather shocking set of photos, i must say.

Just like their " Smash Sinn Fein " campaign, Ulster says No against the Good Friday Agreement and " Save Ulster from Sodomy " worked !!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Save_Ulster_from_Sodomy

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 6:23pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Dev was not a Republican. He sold out the Republic. You obviously know nothing about him. And it's not about what people "think" he said. The facts are quite clear - as a matter of diplomatic protocol, he offered condolences to the German Minister who was in Ireland at the time upon his death. There is a big difference between that and saying that Dev was personally sorry at Hitler's death.

If you can't differentiate between the two, then you're clearly misinformed at every historic level.

Now where were we about children wearing paramilitary uniforms? I suppose you would have no problems with children dressing up in British Army uniforms? You know, after all the murder that British Army got up to in Ireland? Or, with one of the most important royal members who is supposed to be a role model for young unionist children dressing up as a Nazi?

No condemnation there either? Only nationalists can do wrong in your eyes Keith.

Nonsense. Dev was a republican. He just wasn't your sort of republican. The whole treaty argument is rather stupid because he had no choice and knew he would never win. Isn't that why he sent Michael Colins?

Its kind of sad seeing people actually trying to defend these photos which is glorifying the IRA. Its not about the British army. I don't see the point of bringing them up in a thread which is about the IRA and kids looking up to them and glorifying them.

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 6:27pm

sanbrafyffe wrote: »

your sad

Why is saying the truth sad? Look at the post which i was replying to.

karma_ · 23-03-2011 6:32pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why is saying the truth sad? Look at the post which i was replying to.

Well it was kind of ironic in that, on one hand you seemed content with the resistance shown by the loyalist people, while at the same time condemning those glorifying the resistance of republicans.

Maybe that's just me though...

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 6:35pm

karma_ wrote: »

Well it was kind of ironic in that, on one hand you seemed content with the resistance shown by the loyalist people, while at the same time condemning those glorifying the resistance of republicans.

Maybe that's just me though...

No. Big difference. Those people showed resistence in those times. These kids are now in 2011 and could be potential targets for the dissidents to recruit.

Wolfe Tone · 23-03-2011 6:46pm

Kids with toy guns..... wow.

Overheal · 23-03-2011 7:40pm

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Kids with toy guns..... wow.

And that is a slippery slope that gets slippy, here with real cases of where faux pax outrage has probably gone way too far:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-03-08-column08_ST_N.htm

Four years ago, I was publicly identified as a danger to children. As the doting father of four, it was a bit of a surprise, but my "outing" occurred after my boys and I built an authentic Conestoga wagon to ride in our Northern Virginia neighborhood's "Wheel Day." Mid-parade, an irate mother confronted me after spotting toy guns in the covered wagon — objecting to my instilling violent values in my boys. I later received an e-mail from another parent that this covered wagon was no "innocent fantasy" since I must be aware "what guns were used for in the Old West?" It turns out that my kids were apparently rehearsing the genocidal massacre of Native Americans.

Early this year, a 7-year-old in Oklahoma City was suspended from school for pointing his finger like a gun and shooting at a wall. He is not the first "finger-gun" suspension — part of zero-tolerance policy in schools that recently have led to the suspension of kids for everything from drawing stick figures with guns to wearing a hat with an image of an armed soldier on it. In December, Rhode Island Attorney General Patrick Lynch organized an annual "bashing" of toy guns at which parents bring their children to destroy toy guns in exchange for non-violent toys such as puzzles. In January, Hawaii legislators sought, but ultimately failed, to make it a crime to sell a toy gun to anyone younger than 18. While the crackdown on toy guns has continued to grow, this debate has been remarkably detached from developmental studies and seems to be more about parents than their kids.

etc

dlofnep · 23-03-2011 7:49pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Its kind of sad seeing people actually trying to defend these photos which is glorifying the IRA. Its not about the British army. I don't see the point of bringing them up in a thread which is about the IRA and kids looking up to them and glorifying them.

It's about hypocrisy. One person, active in armed forces that is responsible for the murder of civilians in Ireland - creates a thread trying to chastise children for dressing up in paramilitary costumes? Wise up.

You're happy to look past Prince Harry wearing a Nazi costume, but are perturbed that a child might dress up in a balaclava?

Get a grip.

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 8:10pm

dlofnep wrote: »

It's about hypocrisy. One person, active in armed forces that is responsible for the murder of civilians in Ireland - creates a thread trying to chastise children for dressing up in paramilitary costumes? Wise up.

You're happy to look past Prince Harry wearing a Nazi costume, but are perturbed that a child might dress up in a balaclava?

Get a grip.

Context is everything. The prince harry picture has to be taken in context. Even if it was stupid, it can't be compared to young kids being brainwashed into thinking the IRA was good.

dlofnep · 23-03-2011 8:46pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Context is everything. The prince harry picture has to be taken in context. Even if it was stupid, it can't be compared to young kids being brainwashed into thinking the IRA was good.

Yeah yeah - double standards as usual Keith. Well done.

32_4_1 · 23-03-2011 10:44pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Context is everything. The prince harry picture has to be taken in context. Even if it was stupid, it can't be compared to young kids being brainwashed into thinking the IRA was good.

like the great great british army

Dyr · 23-03-2011 10:47pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

The British Army killed many times more innocent people. Where is your condemnation of kids playing soldiers? Or products like this?

I had "talking commander" as he called himself back then, top bloke. he didnt have that dress uniform though. What I I really wanted was panzer major or whatever his name was, In his swanky black SS uniform.

There was also a british spy action man who was dressed as a tramp. Presumably he gunned down catholics while masquerading as the UVF :pac:

KeithAFC · 23-03-2011 10:59pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Yeah yeah - double standards as usual Keith. Well done.

So you are comparing a centre which is based on education and Prince Harry going to a fancy dress party (acting the knob) dressed as a Nazi? Its a pretty big difference.

Dyr · 23-03-2011 11:10pm

This would have been much better if they'd given a third kid a blanket and ****e as a costume.

dlofnep · 23-03-2011 11:52pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

So you are comparing a centre which is based on education and Prince Harry going to a fancy dress party (acting the knob) dressed as a Nazi? Its a pretty big difference.

What Harry did was far worse. He is a representative of the British Royal Family, and set a very bad example for children that may look up to him.

Children of nationalist stock dressing up as a paramilitary group that defended their communities from British soldiers isn't even comparable.

KeithAFC · 24-03-2011 12:06am

dlofnep wrote: »

What Harry did was far worse. He is a representative of the British Royal Family, and set a very bad example for children that may look up to him.

Children of nationalist stock dressing up as a paramilitary group that defended their communities from British soldiers isn't even comparable.

Harry did it for a fancy dress party. Obviously he isn't a nazi. These kids LOOK up to the IRA. That is good in your opinion?

dlofnep · 24-03-2011 1:03am

KeithAFC wrote: »

Harry did it for a fancy dress party. Obviously he isn't a nazi. These kids LOOK up to the IRA. That is good in your opinion?

It's not my place to judge them. The kids were obviously just having a bit of fun, playing dress up. Many people who lived under British oppression looked up to the IRA. Harry on the other hand was very conscious about what he was doing and the implications it would have. He did it anyway.

KeithAFC · 24-03-2011 1:34am

dlofnep wrote: »

It's not my place to judge them. The kids were obviously just having a bit of fun, playing dress up. Many people who lived under British oppression looked up to the IRA. Harry on the other hand was very conscious about what he was doing and the implications it would have. He did it anyway.

I don't know why republicans bring the word oppression into the argument all the time.

The kids are brainwashed into thinking the IRA is good. Simple as that.

Wolfe Tone · 24-03-2011 1:56am

Why wouldnt people look up to the IRA?

junder · 24-03-2011 2:29am

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why wouldnt people look up to the IRA?

What a naive thing to ask

maccored · 24-03-2011 2:41am

junder wrote: »

What a naive thing to ask

It is not a naive thing to ask.

On plenty of occasions, the RUC werent too interested in stopping anti social behaviour and muggings in the nationalist community, whereas people could turn to the IRA to literally keep the peace in their own communities. Of course people in certain areas looked up to them.

RyanP · 24-03-2011 5:10am

ARMOURED CARS......... AND kids and guns?

It could be worse!

They could stick on sashes, bang drums about sing about murderous victories of generations and walk through areas who of relations to such ancestors and people despise them, then march to london and do the same? Would that seem unacceptable?

Yeah its ok do such a thing to you is it?, just as orange order do and did, and then visit Dublin which anyone in their right mind know is just not acceptable and out of order and will only cause hostility, but nah, its ok there ye?

But yeah, OP, boo hoo!

Really dont wnt to get in whys hows did and didn'ts.
At end of the day, if your bother by such petty scenarios, well then...get the boat! Literally!

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why wouldnt people look up to the IRA?

Why wouldn't they!

KeithAFC wrote: »

Did they tell them the IRA killed innocent people?

Always causalities in wars.. and war is an initial reaction to occuption.

Hope the young fellas dont get in too much trouble for dressing up as action man, if there was such fuddy duddys in my estate when I was growing up there would be pics of me on the net haha, ya have much to be doing alrite!

imagine if anyone over the years the people took such offence to other war games that children play.... such as cowboys and indians

A very weak hissy fit to say the least OP.

LordSutch · 24-03-2011 10:40am

I said this in post#2 . . .

LordSutch wrote: »

Thanks for posting that junder, truly appalling that adults can alow children to dress up like that, but I'm sorry to say that many of the posters here would be IRA/ Republican supporters anyway, so don't expect too much shock & disgust. You will probably get about 90% of posters agreeing with the Ti Chulainn stance.

and Overheal replied with this . . . .

Overheal wrote: »

I don't think you know what you're talking about there.

Dont think I was too far off the mark in Post#2.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 24-03-2011 1:30pm

Love these incidents where the papers act outraged at something people only know about because they went out of their way to report it. Lifting images or quotes from facebook should be illegal

Kids like to play soldiers. Just as playing GTA doesn't make you a car thief, or monopoly make you a property developer, wearing a balaclava for a photo isn't going to make these kids into IRA men.

LordSutch · 24-03-2011 1:49pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Love these incidents where the papers act outraged at something people only know about because they went out of their way to report it. Lifting images or quotes from facebook should be illegal

From page one; "The photographs were posted on a social networking website by a Lurgan Sinn Fein member".

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Kids like to play soldiers. Just as playing GTA doesn't make you a car thief, or monopoly make you a property developer, wearing a balaclava for a photo isn't going to make these kids into IRA men.

We all played soldiers as kids, but if you think about the IRA in the context of South Armagh, and the amount of people horriffically murdered by the IRA, then maybe encouraging the kids in the Ti Chulainn cultural centre to dress up as IRA men is at the least 'not very tactful', and at worst a bloody disgrace.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 24-03-2011 1:56pm

LordSutch wrote: »

From page one; "The photographs were posted on a social networking website by a Lurgan Sinn Fein member".

We all played soldiers as kids, but if you think about the IRA in the context of South Armagh, and the amount of people horriffically murdered by the IRA, then maybe encouraging the kids in the Ti Chulainn cultural centre to dress up as IRA men is at the least 'not very tactful', and at worst a bloody disgrace.

What army doesn't murder people horrifically? To those people the IRA were the legitimate army of their country. You can argue with that of course but there is no point trying to make out that one soldier's murder is more righteous than another's, paarticularly to their victims.

This seems like a big deal now because the troubles were so recent. Would there have been a fuss if it was kids dressed in the uniforms of 1916? I doubt it.

wilson10 · 24-03-2011 2:20pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Love these incidents where the papers act outraged at something people only know about because they went out of their way to report it. Lifting images or quotes from facebook should be illegal

Kids like to play soldiers. Just as playing GTA doesn't make you a car thief, or monopoly make you a property developer, wearing a balaclava for a photo isn't going to make these kids into IRA men.

No, it looks like the groundwork's already been done.

It's in the genes.

charlemont · 24-03-2011 2:51pm

Iv a great idea, A South Armagh Sniper action man...

junder · 24-03-2011 3:42pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Love these incidents where the papers act outraged at something people only know about because they went out of their way to report it. Lifting images or quotes from facebook should be illegal

Kids like to play soldiers. Just as playing GTA doesn't make you a car thief, or monopoly make you a property developer, wearing a balaclava for a photo isn't going to make these kids into IRA men.

Those kids are not playing with toy guns here, would love to see how a community / cultural centre can justify spending what I'd most likely public money on decommisoned or replica guns I also hope those wespons had all the legal documentation for said weapons to

Bottle_of_Smoke · 24-03-2011 4:07pm

Interesting this was reported today

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12840557

Children under 10 licensed to use shotguns, BBC learns

Thirteen children under the age of 10 have been issued with shotgun certificates in the UK over the past three years.

The youngest child to be granted a licence was seven years old, figures obtained by BBC News show.

Last year, the Association of Chief Police Officers suggested under-10s should be banned from using shotguns.

So which is worse, taking a photo of a kid dressed up as an IRA man with a fake gun, or training a kid how to use a lethal weapon?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 24-03-2011 4:08pm

junder wrote: »

Those kids are not playing with toy guns here, would love to see how a community / cultural centre can justify spending what I'd most likely public money on decommisoned or replica guns I also hope those wespons had all the legal documentation for said weapons to

Toy gun/replica gun . . . wasn't much difference when I dressed up as James Bond one halloween

KeithAFC · 24-03-2011 4:13pm

danbohan wrote: »

The kids are brainwashed into thinking the IRA is good. Simple as that.

you mean same way you were brainwashed into saying uvf are good and wear lovellllllly uniforms ?

Already explained that. The UVF did have better uniforms than the IRA. The UVF also had proper drills and discipline. But that isn't the point about this thread.

FTA69 · 24-03-2011 4:17pm

KeithAFC wrote: »

Did they tell them the IRA killed innocent people?

As opposed to who? The British Army? The UVF? The RUC? I personally doubt you'll be criticising the "action man" style advertisements for the British Army who have killed untold innocents across the world?

This recent carry-on was in bad taste, but it's not as nauseating as the sheer and utter hypocrisy out of some on this forum.

KeithAFC · 24-03-2011 4:20pm

FTA69 wrote: »

As opposed to who? The British Army? The UVF? The RUC? I personally doubt you'll be criticising the "action man" style advertisements for the British Army who have killed untold innocents across the world?

This recent carry-on was in bad taste, but it's not as nauseating as the sheer and utter hypocrisy out of some on this forum.

Why do you have to bring up the British army and UVF to condone this?

danbohan · 24-03-2011 4:24pm

junder wrote: »

Those kids are not playing with toy guns here, would love to see how a community / cultural centre can justify spending what I'd most likely public money on decommisoned or replica guns I also hope those wespons had all the legal documentation for said weapons to

had all the legal documentation for said weapons to

of course the dont have , only unionists are allowed to have such things !, did not dr paisley and mr Robinson bring hundreds of loyalist/unionists on to the streets carrying their firearm certs ,

Kids and guns in south Armagh

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