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Join Date:Posts: 14790
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Nearly at knock out stages in cup, plate and bowl competitions in Munster
Shane Horgan cup continues this week. Metro and Midlands playing each other tonight
There is only 1 round of delay games yet to be played at U18 - Games involving Young Munster & Garryowen as they were unable to play some of the earlier rounds due to conflict with St Clements Schools games.
Bruff , Ennis & Waterpark confirmed as the 3 group winners at U18, with Midleton confirmed as one of the other Quarter finalists , Still up for grabs between Skibereen & Young Munster in Group 1 and a 3 way tie for 2nd in Group 3 between Newcastle West , Garryowen and Dolphin.Tralee and Sundays Well are still in the hunt for best runner up spot.
At U16 Cobh Pirates , Galbally and Waterpark are the group winners with Kinsale , Skibereen and Ennis confirmed for the Quarters as well. Bruff, Young Munster & Castleisland will playoff for the runner up spots.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Nearly at knock out stages in cup, plate and bowl competitions in Munster
Shane Horgan cup continues this week. Metro and Midlands playing each other tonight
Metro won impressively last night.. Ben Jones is a player to watch out for.0 -
There is only 1 round of delay games yet to be played at U18 - Games involving Young Munster & Garryowen as they were unable to play some of the earlier rounds due to conflict with St Clements Schools games.
Bruff , Ennis & Waterpark confirmed as the 3 group winners at U18, with Midleton confirmed as one of the other Quarter finalists , Still up for grabs between Skibereen & Young Munster in Group 1 and a 3 way tie for 2nd in Group 3 between Newcastle West , Garryowen and Dolphin.Tralee and Sundays Well are still in the hunt for best runner up spot.
At U16 Cobh Pirates , Galbally and Waterpark are the group winners with Kinsale , Skibereen and Ennis confirmed for the Quarters as well. Bruff, Young Munster & Castleisland will playoff for the runner up spots.
This is a really good competition for non-schools players and some of the games can be really competitive but on the flip side some can be really one sided. I'd say it will be the last season of it though due to the conflict between the clubs and schools, especially in North Munster with St. Clements being given 'A' school status next season. There has been a huge amount of amalgamations between clubs due to the other 'A' schools in NM, and now with this number increasing it will be a struggle for the clubs to continue without amalgamating.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14790
MrJones2013 wrote: »This is a really good competition for non-schools players and some of the games can be really competitive but on the flip side some can be really one sided. I'd say it will be the last season of it though due to the conflict between the clubs and schools, especially in North Munster with St. Clements being given 'A' school status next season. There has been a huge amount of amalgamations between clubs due to the other 'A' schools in NM, and now with this number increasing it will be a struggle for the clubs to continue without amalgamating.
If the rules regarding player paneling remain as they are next season there will be no Club rugby at U16/U18 in Limerick city next year.
As it stands right now for next season there will be 7 "A" Schools in Limerick with Panels of 32 at Snr and Jnr submitted mid-September.
That removes ~450 players from Limerick clubs across 16's & 18's.
Cork, a city/county with a population multiple times larger than Limerick have only 2 "A" Schools and will lose ~180 (the 2 Cork schools are allowed panels of 44 for some unknown reason!).
It's a huge issue that needs to be sorted out... There is no need for the players to be paneled in Sept . December as it used to be is plenty of time.
Also , a large number of those paneled players will be nowhere near a cup match day squad so they should be allowed to return to their clubs once the Schools Cup is over.
There are several hundred boys across all those schools whose Rugby season is already over as their Schools are knocked out and they aren't allowed play with the clubs that a lot of them have been with since they were 7 or 8 years old..
Madness..0 -
It's an absolute disgrace the power the schools are given over the clubs and something I can't understand. Are the branches not supposed to be run by the clubs? Why we allow them to walk all over us is beyond me.MrJones2013 wrote: »This is a really good competition for non-schools players and some of the games can be really competitive but on the flip side some can be really one sided. I'd say it will be the last season of it though due to the conflict between the clubs and schools, especially in North Munster with St. Clements being given 'A' school status next season. There has been a huge amount of amalgamations between clubs due to the other 'A' schools in NM, and now with this number increasing it will be a struggle for the clubs to continue without amalgamating.
If the rules regarding player paneling remain as they are next season there will be no Club rugby at U16/U18 in Limerick city next year.
As it stands right now for next season there will be 7 "A" Schools in Limerick with Panels of 32 at Snr and Jnr submitted mid-September.
That removes ~450 players from Limerick clubs across 16's & 18's.
Cork, a city/county with a population multiple times larger than Limerick have only 2 "A" Schools and will lose ~180 (the 2 Cork schools are allowed panels of 44 for some unknown reason!).
It's a huge issue that needs to be sorted out... There is no need for the players to be paneled in Sept . December as it used to be is plenty of time.
Also , a large number of those paneled players will be nowhere near a cup match day squad so they should be allowed to return to their clubs once the Schools Cup is over.
There are several hundred boys across all those schools whose Rugby season is already over as their Schools are knocked out and they aren't allowed play with the clubs that a lot of them have been with since they were 7 or 8 years old..
Madness..0 -
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Definitely agree with you, it's madness. The schools have too much power and the players that get panelled and don't get game time suffer because of it. Panelling players in September for a competition that starts in late January is ludacris.
The players are only in school for 6 years max and will go back to the clubs afterwards, some will have no affiliation with any club after being tied up by a school for so long and therefore will have no loyalty to any club and if they don't make a senior squad in their first 3 years out of school will just pack it in or jump from club to club.
Is it the same issue in other provinces with schools having so much power?0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14790
MrJones2013 wrote: »Definitely agree with you, it's madness. The schools have too much power and the players that get panelled and don't get game time suffer because of it. Panelling players in September for a competition that starts in late January is ludacris.
The players are only in school for 6 years max and will go back to the clubs afterwards, some will have no affiliation with any club after being tied up by a school for so long and therefore will have no loyalty to any club and if they don't make a senior squad in their first 3 years out of school will just pack it in or jump from club to club.
Is it the same issue in other provinces with schools having so much power?
In Leinster the Schools are largely in Dublin with the exception of the few boarding schools, so they have the population to be able to manage for the most part and in Connacht there are no limitations on Schools/Club cross-over. Leinsters clubs are definitely weakened , but they can at least field teams. I'm not sure of the situation in Ulster tbh.
North Munster in particular is an anomoly with the high concentration of Schools in a relatively small population catchment area so the latest rules decimate the clubs.
UL-Bohs for example do not field at all beyond about U14 and the other teams are a patchwork of players from multiple clubs as they scramble to pull together sufficient numbers to field at U16's and U18's.
You then have the handful of "out of town" North Munster clubs like Ennis , Bruff and Newcastle west that tend to only lose 1 or two players to Schools panels , but are left with no one to play (or at least no meaningful opponents) because the city teams have been gutted.
As you say , they are only with the schools for 5 or 6 years , they are potentially with the clubs for 25 years plus if they start at Minis...
The drop out rate of schools players into Club rugby is close to 70% , it's nothing like as high for "club only" players...0 -
It's an absolute disgrace the power the schools are given over the clubs and something I can't understand. Are the branches not supposed to be run by the clubs? Why we allow them to walk all over us is beyond me.
IMO down here it's a combination of two things, firstly, some of the guys in the branch are ex-school teachers and have more interest in their schools welfare then their clubs. Secondly, the schools are unified when it comes to taking things to branch level and support one another, the clubs don't 'have one anothers backs' in the same way schools do.
Supposedly, the schools went to the branch down here recently and gave a stat as to how many players break through the schools system vs the club system, obviously it was heavily in favour of the schools as they tie the players so they can't play with the clubs, and the branch bought it and upped the number of 'A' schools.
Schools down here are a law unto themselves, again supposedly, they went to the branch at the start of this season with a set of rules they drafted up, such as only panelling a maximum of 5 under 17's on senior schools squads and these weren't adhered to with some schools panelling up to 10 under 17's......who is policing these rules and why aren't schools being punished for not abiding by them? If it was the other way around clubs would be punished!0 -
In Leinster it is equally bad. Panelling to me it pretty shocking. Why are we stopping kids playing rugby. Would we not be better having kids play schools and clubs instead of schools and GAA or soccer? Panelling only limits rugby in Ireland.MrJones2013 wrote: »Definitely agree with you, it's madness. The schools have too much power and the players that get panelled and don't get game time suffer because of it. Panelling players in September for a competition that starts in late January is ludacris.
The players are only in school for 6 years max and will go back to the clubs afterwards, some will have no affiliation with any club after being tied up by a school for so long and therefore will have no loyalty to any club and if they don't make a senior squad in their first 3 years out of school will just pack it in or jump from club to club.
Is it the same issue in other provinces with schools having so much power?0 -
The schools produce the players logic really annoys me. If I look at belvo I have seen a huge number of those guys playing for clontarf and minis'/youths and will hopefully see them play in red and blue again soon. Yet once they go to a private school we get zero credit. Too many of the club coaches are also schools coaches as well and pretend to put forward the interest of clubs when all the care about is schools rugby and the senior team they are coaching in the club.0
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Join Date:Posts: 14790
In Leinster it is equally bad. Panelling to me it pretty shocking. Why are we stopping kids playing rugby. Would we not be better having kids play schools and clubs instead of schools and GAA or soccer? Panelling only limits rugby in Ireland.
In Leinster it's even more egregious to be honest..There are no panels as such.
Basically if you attend a rugby school , you cannot play for a club end of story.
As I said , because of the population and distribution you don't tend to have situations where a single club is losing an entire squad to schools , but most clubs will lose a few each weakening their teams and not all of those boys will get to play a decent amount of matches.. They'll spend their time holding tackle bags..
Simply not right.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14790
The schools produce the players logic really annoys me. If I look at belvo I have seen a huge number of those guys playing for clontarf and minis'/youths and will hopefully see them play in red and blue again soon. Yet once they go to a private school we get zero credit. Too many of the club coaches are also schools coaches as well and pretend to put forward the interest of clubs when all the care about is schools rugby and the senior team they are coaching in the club.
Agree completely.. they are NOT schools players , they are Club players loaned to the schools for a few years.0 -
In Leinster the Schools are largely in Dublin with the exception of the few boarding schools, so they have the population to be able to manage for the most part and in Connacht there are no limitations on Schools/Club cross-over. Leinsters clubs are definitely weakened , but they can at least field teams. I'm not sure of the situation in Ulster tbh.
North Munster in particular is an anomoly with the high concentration of Schools in a relatively small population catchment area so the latest rules decimate the clubs.
UL-Bohs for example do not field at all beyond about U14 and the other teams are a patchwork of players from multiple clubs as they scramble to pull together sufficient numbers to field at U16's and U18's.
You then have the handful of "out of town" North Munster clubs like Ennis , Bruff and Newcastle west that tend to only lose 1 or two players to Schools panels , but are left with no one to play (or at least no meaningful opponents) because the city teams have been gutted.
As you say , they are only with the schools for 5 or 6 years , they are potentially with the clubs for 25 years plus if they start at Minis...
The drop out rate of schools players into Club rugby is close to 70% , it's nothing like as high for "club only" players...
That is an outrageous stat, players that go through the school system must be burned out from the sport by 18/19 years of age, the schools train an obscene amount with no regard for the players physical or mental health, balancing that training load with the school work/study must put these young men on the edge.
As you say having such a large number of 'A' schools in NM with such a small playing pool is definitely an anomaly.0 -
The schools produce the players logic really annoys me. If I look at belvo I have seen a huge number of those guys playing for clontarf and minis'/youths and will hopefully see them play in red and blue again soon. Yet once they go to a private school we get zero credit. Too many of the club coaches are also schools coaches as well and pretend to put forward the interest of clubs when all the care about is schools rugby and the senior team they are coaching in the club.
And you can be certain that the club coaches aren't getting a penny for it, they do it for the love of the sport. The schools coaches are doing it, for the large part, within their working hours as they are mostly teachers and so are technically getting paid for it!0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14790
MrJones2013 wrote: »And you can be certain that the club coaches aren't getting a penny for it, they do it for the love of the sport. The schools coaches are doing it, for the large part, within their working hours as they are mostly teachers and so are technically getting paid for it!
Most of the bigger schools have full time professional coaches at Snr Cup level being paid a pretty penny..Not teachers at all..
Bandon Grammar are coached by a guy that used to be the forwards coach for Bordeaux-Begles!!!0 -
Most of the bigger schools have full time professional coaches at Snr Cup level being paid a pretty penny..Not teachers at all..
Bandon Grammar are coached by a guy that used to be the forwards coach for Bordeaux-Begles!!!
You're right actually, that's what the clubs are competing against and they'll never win!0 -
Join Date:Posts: 14790
MrJones2013 wrote: »You're right actually, that's what the clubs are competing against and they'll never win!
Don't get me wrong , the schools have far greater access to the players than the clubs ever could - 3-4 hrs a week vs. 40hrs a week and they can get great training and development but I fail to understand the either/or attitude from the schools.
Why can't they play for both , or at least have the option??
If I'm a 16-18 year old that's only on the fringes of my schools match day 23 at JCT or SCT , why shouldn't I be able to play for my club on a Saturday or a Sunday??
Those are the guys that are the lifeblood of club rugby, they are the 2nd's and 3rd's players , the coaches , bagmen , Club secretaries , treasurers etc. etc.
If they drop out of rugby in their teens , they are gone forever and Club rugby dies.. Then what???0 -
MrJones2013 wrote: »You're right actually, that's what the clubs are competing against and they'll never win!
That's the problem. It shouldn't be schools competing with clubs but instead working together to get as many people playing rugby to their best abilities0 -
Don't get me wrong , the schools have far greater access to the players than the clubs ever could - 3-4 hrs a week vs. 40hrs a week and they can get great training and development but I fail to understand the either/or attitude from the schools.
Why can't they play for both , or at least have the option??
If I'm a 16-18 year old that's only on the fringes of my schools match day 23 at JCT or SCT , why shouldn't I be able to play for my club on a Saturday or a Sunday??
Those are the guys that are the lifeblood of club rugby, they are the 2nd's and 3rd's players , the coaches , bagmen , Club secretaries , treasurers etc. etc.
If they drop out of rugby in their teens , they are gone forever and Club rugby dies.. Then what???
Couldn't agree more, the players would actually benefit from getting some game time with the club and be match ready.
The fact that the school have access to them for so much time during the week is a huge benefit to the school but the schools v club either/or mentallity is ridiculous.
I know of one club in NM who had a player in an 'A' school, the player and his parents went to the school and asked for him not to be panelled, the panels came out at the end of September and he was panelled. Both the parents and the student went back in to the school and requested that he was released and the school wouldn't accommodate him, he was still panelled up until late November and couldn't play with the club while panelled despite not even training/playing for the school, scandalous.0 -
That's the problem. It shouldn't be schools competing with clubs but instead working together to get as many people playing rugby to their best abilities
Couldn't agree more with you, the more we can have the schools and clubs working together the better but this doesn't happan. The attitude seems to be stemming from the schools side with players not being released to the clubs from schools, hence my 'that's what the clubs are competing against' (us vs them) comment.0 -
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MrJones2013 wrote: »Couldn't agree more with you, the more we can have the schools and clubs working together the better but this doesn't happan. The attitude seems to be stemming from the schools side with players not being released to the clubs from schools, hence my 'that's what the clubs are competing against' (us vs them) comment.
yeah I think clubs and schools need to work together a lot more. maybe have schools have a panel of 23 that cant play clubs then an extended panel to bring it to the full number of players that can play clubs if they haven't played a schools top level match in 7 days. Don't know about other provinces but in leinster players each have an individual number so can be fairly easily tracked so that wouldnt be hard to do0 -
yeah I think clubs and schools need to work together a lot more. maybe have schools have a panel of 23 that cant play clubs then an extended panel to bring it to the full number of players that can play clubs if they haven't played a schools top level match in 7 days. Don't know about other provinces but in leinster players each have an individual number so can be fairly easily tracked so that wouldnt be hard to do
They have IRFU registration numbers and card down here and commisioners go to selected games and compare random players names on submitted team sheets with the IRFU cards, it's a good way of policing players and confirming that the clubs team sheets are accurate. I'm not sure what way it works in non-competitive and competitive school games down here.
If it's strictly policed the idea you have mentioned could work.0 -
And Clements getting through was hard to predict. And you have to make allowances for them.There is only 1 round of delay games yet to be played at U18 - Games involving Young Munster & Garryowen as they were unable to play some of the earlier rounds due to conflict with St Clements Schools games.
Bruff, Ennis & Waterpark confirmed as the 3 group winners at U18, with Midleton confirmed as one of the other Quarter finalists, Still up for grabs between Skibereen & Young Munster in Group 1 and a 3 way tie for 2nd in Group 3 between Newcastle West, Garryowen and Dolphin.Tralee and Sundays Well are still in the hunt for best runner up spot.
At U16 Cobh Pirates, Galbally and Waterpark are the group winners with Kinsale , Skibereen and Ennis confirmed for the Quarters as well. Bruff, Young Munster & Castleisland will playoff for the runner up spots.
All competitions by and large have ran well this season. Which is great.
Its one of the best competitions around especially since the introduction of the plate and Bowl competitions and I don't see it being the end of the competition and I doubt Clements will be made an "A school" and even if they were there simply would be other amalgamations for kids not In these schools or in the panels to allow them play club rugby.MrJones2013 wrote: »This is a really good competition for non-schools players and some of the games can be really competitive but on the flip side some can be really one sided. I'd say it will be the last season of it though due to the conflict between the clubs and schools, especially in North Munster with St. Clements being given 'A' school status next season. There has been a huge amount of amalgamations between clubs due to the other 'A' schools in NM, and now with this number increasing it will be a struggle for the clubs to continue without amalgamating.
Clubs amalgamating isn't an issue if it means the kids get rugby
Cork schools can panel 44 as they can get enough games for their school senior 2nds and it doesn't effect clubs as much as elsewhere. You still see the traditional youths teams in the city like the well, highfield field and now Con, Dolphin, Old Christians are also fielding and all on their own not combining with anyone.If the rules regarding player paneling remain as they are next season there will be no Club rugby at U16/U18 in Limerick city next year.
As it stands right now for next season there will be 7 "A" Schools in Limerick with Panels of 32 at Snr and Jnr submitted mid-September.
That removes ~450 players from Limerick clubs across 16's & 18's.
Cork, a city/county with a population multiple times larger than Limerick have only 2 "A" Schools and will lose ~180 (the 2 Cork schools are allowed panels of 44 for some unknown reason!).
It's a huge issue that needs to be sorted out... There is no need for the players to be paneled in Sept. December as it used to be is plenty of time.
Also, a large number of those paneled players will be nowhere near a cup match day squad so they should be allowed to return to their clubs once the Schools Cup is over.
There are several hundred boys across all those schools whose Rugby season is already over as their Schools are knocked out and they aren't allowed play with the clubs that a lot of them have been with since they were 7 or 8 years old..
Madness..
I think the panelling should be done as early as possible and Christmas is possibly too late but there should be several deadlines and kids can be changed between club/school at different times.
And kids could play with their club when school is knocked out of the schools cups if the open cup was truly open.
The schools have power as they've more influence. The clubs make up the branch and the actual branch has reps of each of the clubs as well as reps from the junior, youths, schools, womens, minis, colleges sub committees but often reps of senior clubs will also have been in these schools so will vote with/for them. How do you change that? You have to look at power over/power to and how would you change structures to change this?It's an absolute disgrace the power the schools are given over the clubs and something I can't understand. Are the branches not supposed to be run by the clubs? Why we allow them to walk all over us is beyond me.
Schools in a lot of ways have the "tradition". Panelling players is ridiculous to an extent but its better than other alternatives. Its different in each province for very different reasons. In Connacht you can play both club and school and in the main schools don't play any games at the weekend and kids play schools games Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday and then club on Saturday/Sunday.MrJones2013 wrote: »Definitely agree with you, it's madness. The schools have too much power and the players that get panelled and don't get game time suffer because of it. Panelling players in September for a competition that starts in late January is ludacris.
The players are only in school for 6 years max and will go back to the clubs afterwards, some will have no affiliation with any club after being tied up by a school for so long and therefore will have no loyalty to any club and if they don't make a senior squad in their first 3 years out of school will just pack it in or jump from club to club.
Is it the same issue in other provinces with schools having so much power?
The schools are largely in Dublin and by and large clubs don't field as schools are very big and field all the way down the levels and find rugby for all and they do have population to cope.In Leinster the Schools are largely in Dublin with the exception of the few boarding schools, so they have the population to be able to manage for the most part and in Connacht there are no limitations on Schools/Club cross-over. Leinsters clubs are definitely weakened, but they can at least field teams. I'm not sure of the situation in Ulster tbh.
North Munster in particular is an anomoly with the high concentration of Schools in a relatively small population catchment area so the latest rules decimate the clubs.
Connacht there is no limits and there is often games with clubs where there is kids who are in boarding school in Leinster yet also play with their club where they can. Adi Donovan in Cistercian Roscrea this year is a good example of that.
Having played on a very successful "club only" team that involved quite a few provincial players, many who have played AIL and at age grade made quite a few provincial finals/knockouts I don't agree that the drop out rate of "club only" players is much less than schools players.UL-Bohs for example do not field at all beyond about U14 and the other teams are a patchwork of players from multiple clubs as they scramble to pull together sufficient numbers to field at U16's and U18's.
You then have the handful of "out of town" North Munster clubs like Ennis, Bruff and Newcastle west that tend to only lose 1 or two players to Schools panels but are left with no one to play (or at least no meaningful opponents) because the city teams have been gutted.
As you say, they are only with the schools for 5 or 6 years, they are potentially with the clubs for 25 years plus if they start at Minis...
The drop out rate of schools players into Club rugby is close to 70% , it's nothing like as high for "club only" players...
I don't have any issue with a club like Bohs only fielding because they have to join with 2/3 other clubs. As in the past they wont even have fielded at all.
When you say branch do you mean the branch committee or the various sub committees as there is so many who would/could be involved in this issue.MrJones2013 wrote: »IMO down here it's a combination of two things, firstly, some of the guys in the branch are ex-school teachers and have more interest in their schools welfare then their clubs. Secondly, the schools are unified when it comes to taking things to branch level and support one another, the clubs don't 'have one anothers backs' in the same way schools do.
Supposedly, the schools went to the branch down here recently and gave a stat as to how many players break through the schools system vs the club system, obviously it was heavily in favour of the schools as they tie the players so they can't play with the clubs, and the branch bought it and upped the number of 'A' schools.
Schools down here are a law unto themselves, again supposedly, they went to the branch at the start of this season with a set of rules they drafted up, such as only panelling a maximum of 5 under 17's on senior schools squads and these weren't adhered to with some schools panelling up to 10 under 17's......who is policing these rules and why aren't schools being punished for not abiding by them? If it was the other way around clubs would be punished!
Of course the clubs wont have same unity as schools. There is way more of them and their interests will vary considerably.
Panelling is only in Rugby but in GAA in theory the seasons dove tail with club season over school holidays for a lot of it.In Leinster it is equally bad. Panelling to me it pretty shocking. Why are we stopping kids playing rugby. Would we not be better having kids play schools and clubs instead of schools and GAA or soccer? Panelling only limits rugby in Ireland.
There is part of it stopping kids from playing but at least in Leinster there is schools going down to playing 5ths/6ths so there is rugby for all. Now if you cant afford to attend a fee paying school you may be stuck with little rugby in parts of Dublin.
It is really annoying especially with guys who will have played a lot of rugby in both a club and school all through their underage career.The schools produce the players logic really annoys me. If I look at belvo I have seen a huge number of those guys playing for clontarf and minis'/youths and will hopefully see them play in red and blue again soon. Yet once they go to a private school we get zero credit. Too many of the club coaches are also schools coaches as well and pretend to put forward the interest of clubs when all the care about is schools rugby and the senior team they are coaching in the club.
You also see it in terms of kids entering first year in rugby schools and the standards are higher and this follows on to junior and senior schools levels as the clubs will have put so much good work into the kids at minis and u13 level.
It isn't right but what can people do?In Leinster it's even more egregious to be honest..There are no panels as such.
Basically if you attend a rugby school, you cannot play for a club end of story.
As I said, because of the population and distribution you don't tend to have situations where a single club is losing an entire squad to schools, but most clubs will lose a few each weakening their teams and not all of those boys will get to play a decent amount of matches.. They'll spend their time holding tackle bags..
Simply not right.
Do you highlight it? Go to the media. Like what happened in Limerick around this time last year where there was a discussion on Live 95 FM after a mother rang into complain about how her son was panelled by her school and was not getting game time with the school but was not allowed to be released to play with his club.0 -
When you look at the schools rugby supplements you will see there still is quite a few teachers involved but its mainly outsiders who come into specifically to coach the teams or past pupilsMrJones2013 wrote: »And you can be certain that the club coaches aren't getting a penny for it, they do it for the love of the sport. The schools coaches are doing it, for the large part, within their working hours as they are mostly teachers and so are technically getting paid for it!
Bandon Grammar got that guy through a lot of luck and he is also coaching the j1 team in Bandon RFC. He is a friend of a guy who is playing in Bandon and wanted a break from the pro game and wanted experience new game..Most of the bigger schools have full time professional coaches at Snr Cup level being paid a pretty penny..Not teachers at all..
Bandon Grammar are coached by a guy that used to be the forwards coach for Bordeaux-Begles!!!
Schools can get greater access but club players but you can see increasing numbers of clubs getting a huge amount of work like what schools put in. Many of the top club age grade sides are getting organised in areas where schools outstrip them like S&C etc.Don't get me wrong, the schools have far greater access to the players than the clubs ever could - 3-4 hrs a week vs. 40hrs a week and they can get great training and development but I fail to understand the either/or attitude from the schools.
Why can't they play for both, or at least have the option??
If I'm a 16-18 year old that's only on the fringes of my schools match day 23 at JCT or SCT, why shouldn't I be able to play for my club on a Saturday or a Sunday??
Those are the guys that are the lifeblood of club rugby, they are the 2nd's and 3rd's players, the coaches, bagmen, Club secretaries, treasurers etc. etc.
If they drop out of rugby in their teens, they are gone forever and Club rugby dies.. Then what???
It all depends on your school and number of teams fielded. If in Dublin/Ulster you have schools fielding down to 4ths at senior so you can simply play with the school team you find most suitable.
And schools play Saturdays quite a lot so you cant play Saturday and Sunday each week.
Now that is horrendous. And theyre the stories we need to stop.MrJones2013 wrote: »Couldn't agree more, the players would actually benefit from getting some game time with the club and be match ready.
The fact that the school have access to them for so much time during the week is a huge benefit to the school but the schools v club either/or mentallity is ridiculous.
I know of one club in NM who had a player in an 'A' school, the player and his parents went to the school and asked for him not to be panelled, the panels came out at the end of September and he was panelled. Both the parents and the student went back in to the school and requested that he was released and the school wouldn't accommodate him, he was still panelled up until late November and couldn't play with the club while panelled despite not even training/playing for the school, scandalous.
But when there is some areas like Dublin where a lot of clubs don't field in any competitions you then have issues.yeah I think clubs and schools need to work together a lot more. maybe have schools have a panel of 23 that cant play clubs then an extended panel to bring it to the full number of players that can play clubs if they haven't played a schools top level match in 7 days. Don't know about other provinces but in leinster players each have an individual number so can be fairly easily tracked so that wouldnt be hard to do
How would you propose for clubs and schools to work together a lot more?
Do all schools players have reg numbers and cards available for inspection though?MrJones2013 wrote: »They have IRFU registration numbers and card down here and commisioners go to selected games and compare random players names on submitted team sheets with the IRFU cards, it's a good way of policing players and confirming that the clubs team sheets are accurate. I'm not sure what way it works in non-competitive and competitive school games down here.
If it's strictly policed the idea you have mentioned could work.0 -
I know amalgamating clubs is a way of getting players games but personally I don't think it's ideal, clubs lose their identities and with the number of coaches involved from various clubs it can get messy, where do the team train, who has the final say when picking a team, it's not ideal.
Was it discussed on 95FM last year? What was the response do you remember?0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »But when there is some areas like Dublin where a lot of clubs don't field in any competitions you then have issues.
How would you propose for clubs and schools to work together a lot more?
Do all schools players have reg numbers and cards available for inspection though?
Well then theres no problem is there if the club they want to play for arent in a competition they cant play for them and they can play in friendlies anyway cant they?
All the school I know people involved with do anyway.*
*did not see the cards bit. I have no idea about cards but they have the numbers to hand if any situations arise.0 -
The Lost Sheep wrote: »Now that is horrendous. And theyre the stories we need to stop.
That's just one student in one school in one year, I'd imagine it's happening regularly enough.The Lost Sheep wrote: »Do all schools players have reg numbers and cards available for inspection though?
I'd assume they do but I'm not 100% certain on that.0 -
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The Lost Sheep wrote: »And Clements getting through was hard to predict. And you have to make allowances for them.
All competitions by and large have ran well this season. Which is great.
Its one of the best competitions around especially since the introduction of the plate and Bowl competitions and I don't see it being the end of the competition and I doubt Clements will be made an "A school" and even if they were there simply would be other amalgamations for kids not In these schools or in the panels to allow them play club rugby.
It's already done , Clements are now an A School along with Bandon Grammar from next September. Neither school are really at the level to be consistently competitive and will just be fairly regular whipping boys for the foreseeable future..
With the Clements players gone , there's simply not enough players left to go around..This season at U18's for example there were only 4 Club teams from Limerick , removing another 25+ players from Clements probably means you'll be lucky to have 2 teams in Limerick next year..The Lost Sheep wrote: »
And kids could play with their club when school is knocked out of the schools cups if the open cup was truly open.
And that's how it used to be, but they changed the rules this year so players are not allowed back to their clubs under any circumstance now.The Lost Sheep wrote: »The schools have power as they've more influence. The clubs make up the branch and the actual branch has reps of each of the clubs as well as reps from the junior, youths, schools, womens, minis, colleges sub committees but often reps of senior clubs will also have been in these schools so will vote with/for them. How do you change that? You have to look at power over/power to and how would you change structures to change this?
Schools in a lot of ways have the "tradition". Panelling players is ridiculous to an extent but its better than other alternatives. Its different in each province for very different reasons. In Connacht you can play both club and school and in the main schools don't play any games at the weekend and kids play schools games Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday and then club on Saturday/Sunday.
The schools are largely in Dublin and by and large clubs don't field as schools are very big and field all the way down the levels and find rugby for all and they do have population to cope.
This is the key issue , Youth rugby is only a "sub committee" in Munster with no real power , whereas the Schools are a full committee with voting rights at the top table and therefore get their way in almost everything.The Lost Sheep wrote: »Connacht there is no limits and there is often games with clubs where there is kids who are in boarding school in Leinster yet also play with their club where they can. Adi Donovan in Cistercian Roscrea this year is a good example of that.
Which is great , but not allowed in Munster , if you go to a rugby school in Leinster, you cannot play for the club at all , ever.The Lost Sheep wrote: »Do all schools players have reg numbers and cards available for inspection though?
They have ID numbers , but no cards . There also are no Match Commissioners , but at Club level Cards & teamheets are obligatory and Match Commissioners are a regular occurrence.0 -
Of course its not ideal but its better than clubs not amalgamating and kids losing out on rugby. It can be messy but what would you prefer? Arguments about where team train or no training at all because there isn't a team?MrJones2013 wrote: »I know amalgamating clubs is a way of getting players games but personally I don't think it's ideal, clubs lose their identities and with the number of coaches involved from various clubs it can get messy, where do the team train, who has the final say when picking a team, it's not ideal.
Was it discussed on 95FM last year? What was the response do you remember?
I cant remember what was actually said on Limerick95FM. Just that a mother rang in about her son not being allowed play in a clubs u18 team as he was on a senior schools panelled squad of 26/27 and the issue was discussed.
Bandon Grammar going to A status isn't an issue but Clements is. How many more male schools in the city is there? That's now 5 of them(excluding Glenstal) which are A status?It's already done, Clements are now an A School along with Bandon Grammar from next September. Neither school are really at the level to be consistently competitive and will just be fairly regular whipping boys for the foreseeable future..
With the Clements players gone, there's simply not enough players left to go around..This season at U18's for example there were only 4 Club teams from Limerick, removing another 25+ players from Clements probably means you'll be lucky to have 2 teams in Limerick next year..
If clements kids are gone then there will be less clubs from Limerick but what can you do to change this?
The kids will still be playing rugby but in school not in a club. Clubs can still run open cups and get kids playing with them to help maintain a connection.
The schools are not a full committee with voting power compared to the youths being a sub committee with no power. They are the exact same. Both are sub committees at the same level. The youths committee has the same voting privileges as the schools committee.And that's how it used to be, but they changed the rules this year so players are not allowed back to their clubs under any circumstance now.
This is the key issue, Youth rugby is only a "sub committee" in Munster with no real power, whereas the Schools are a full committee with voting rights at the top table and therefore get their way in almost everything.
Which is great , but not allowed in Munster, if you go to a rugby school in Leinster, you cannot play for the club at all, ever.
You can play with a club if in a rugby school. All depends on what level you are playing in your school.0 -
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Personally I think both can be accomodated but there needs to be a little bit of give from the schools side.
The 'Open Cup' could be done away with and the seeding/conferences for the Munster Clubs could be played between the second week of September to the 2nd week of November, that would be around 9-10 weeks to get around 6-8 games played depending on the conference. For the next two weeks the first two games of the group stages of the cup/plate/bowl competition could be played and from the middle of December the schools players are panelled then and not available to clubs, until the schools competition is finished on St. Patricks day.
From the New Year to early March the 'closed' cup could be played with a group stage initially to increase the number of games and seed teams and maybe even have a plate and a bowl competition in this also so that teams keep getting competitive games.
From the end of March the Munster Clubs Competition could come back in to play with the remaining groups games played during April and the knockout stages during May.
Club games could be played at weekend with schools friendlies or other competitions between September and December being fixed for Wednesdays to accommodate both sides.0
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