Youths Rugby

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Of course its not ideal but its better than clubs not amalgamating and kids losing out on rugby. It can be messy but what would you prefer? Arguments about where team train or no training at all because there isn't a team?

I cant remember what was actually said on Limerick95FM. Just that a mother rang in about her son not being allowed play in a clubs u18 team as he was on a senior schools panelled squad of 26/27 and the issue was discussed.

Bandon Grammar going to A status isn't an issue but Clements is. How many more male schools in the city is there? That's now 5 of them(excluding Glenstal) which are A status?
If clements kids are gone then there will be less clubs from Limerick but what can you do to change this?
The kids will still be playing rugby but in school not in a club. Clubs can still run open cups and get kids playing with them to help maintain a connection.
The schools are not a full committee with voting power compared to the youths being a sub committee with no power. They are the exact same. Both are sub committees at the same level. The youths committee has the same voting privileges as the schools committee.
You can play with a club if in a rugby school. All depends on what level you are playing in your school.

The schools have them panelled from September to Febuary/March, the only time to play an 'Open Cup' is April.

Between September and February/March the schools won't release them regardless of the competition by suggesting that they should rest at weekends and not play for the club.

Quin_Dub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Of course its not ideal but its better than clubs not amalgamating and kids losing out on rugby. It can be messy but what would you prefer? Arguments about where team train or no training at all because there isn't a team?

I cant remember what was actually said on Limerick95FM. Just that a mother rang in about her son not being allowed play in a clubs u18 team as he was on a senior schools panelled squad of 26/27 and the issue was discussed.

Bandon Grammar going to A status isn't an issue but Clements is. How many more male schools in the city is there? That's now 5 of them(excluding Glenstal) which are A status?
If clements kids are gone then there will be less clubs from Limerick but what can you do to change this?
The kids will still be playing rugby but in school not in a club. Clubs can still run open cups and get kids playing with them to help maintain a connection.
The schools are not a full committee with voting power compared to the youths being a sub committee with no power. They are the exact same. Both are sub committees at the same level. The youths committee has the same voting privileges as the schools committee.
You can play with a club if in a rugby school. All depends on what level you are playing in your school.

I don't think there are any Boys schools left , although there's a new school opening in Mungret next September and that's likely to go straight in as an A/B school.

The problem with the panels isn't so much for the starting 15/20 it's the other dozen or more players in each of those schools from the 32 man panel that won't ever get to put on a pair of boots on Cup match day and who will only rarely get game time the rest of the season.. They are the ones that drastically miss out.

In terms of schools players from Leinster - No they are not allowed play regardless of what level they are at in School..

The feedback from the Munster branch was, that because there are no "panels" in Leinster , they have no way of knowing who's who so they simply apply a blanket ban.

I have several players involved in my own club now attending Clongowes or Roscrea and they are not allowed play competitive club rugby even when they are not on JCT/SCT squads in Leinster.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Personally I think both can be accomodated but there needs to be a little bit of give from the schools side.

The 'Open Cup' could be done away with and the seeding/conferences for the Munster Clubs could be played between the second week of September to the 2nd week of November, that would be around 9-10 weeks to get around 6-8 games played depending on the conference. For the next two weeks the first two games of the group stages of the cup/plate/bowl competition could be played and from the middle of December the schools players are panelled then and not available to clubs, until the schools competition is finished on St. Patricks day.

For a solution to be found it isn't simply a bit of give from the schools. The clubs and people within them must actually be realistic.
The Open Cup is actually very good and gets the guys who don't play in clubs (because theyre on junior and senior schools teams each year of their time in secondary school) playing in the clubs
Up until here you are going ok but this part.....

From the New Year to early March the 'closed' cup could be played with a group stage initially to increase the number of games and seed teams and maybe even have a plate and a bowl competition in this also so that teams keep getting competitive games.

From the end of March the Munster Clubs Competition could come back in to play with the remaining groups games played during April and the knockout stages during May.

Club games could be played at weekend with schools friendlies or other competitions between September and December being fixed for Wednesdays to accommodate both sides.

Having a 3 month break and not having the Munster clubs competition just suits Limerick city clubs and nobody else. Why should every other club in every other part of the province not be allowed play next round of provincial competition because of 120 kids or so are playing schools cup?
GAA at under 16/minor will be really kicking into gear in March/April and only restarting the clubs competition then after a long break would just see numbers drift off to GAA and not likely to come back to rugby

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I don't think there are any Boys schools left , although there's a new school opening in Mungret next September and that's likely to go straight in as an A/B school.

The problem with the panels isn't so much for the starting 15/20 it's the other dozen or more players in each of those schools from the 32 man panel that won't ever get to put on a pair of boots on Cup match day and who will only rarely get game time the rest of the season.. They are the ones that drastically miss out.

In terms of schools players from Leinster - No they are not allowed play regardless of what level they are at in School..

The feedback from the Munster branch was, that because there are no "panels" in Leinster , they have no way of knowing who's who so they simply apply a blanket ban.

I have several players involved in my own club now attending Clongowes or Roscrea and they are not allowed play competitive club rugby even when they are not on JCT/SCT squads in Leinster.

They can and do play games at under 14/15/16/18 if not in junior/senior schools squads. Ive had teams in my own club get release forms for kids in these schools to play club competitions including the Pan Munster/Munster Phase 2 cups.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

For a solution to be found it isn't simply a bit of give from the schools. The clubs and people within them must actually be realistic.
The Open Cup is actually very good and gets the guys who don't play in clubs (because theyre on junior and senior schools teams each year of their time in secondary school) playing in the clubs
Up until here you are going ok but this part.....

Having a 3 month break and not having the Munster clubs competition just suits Limerick city clubs and nobody else. Why should every other club in every other part of the province not be allowed play next round of provincial competition because of 120 kids or so are playing schools cup?
GAA at under 16/minor will be really kicking into gear in March/April and only restarting the clubs competition then after a long break would just see numbers drift off to GAA and not likely to come back to rugby

They can and do play games at under 14/15/16/18 if not in junior/senior schools squads. Ive had teams in my own club get release forms for kids in these schools to play club competitions including the Pan Munster/Munster Phase 2 cups.

Obviously it'll need a bit of give and take from both sides, there's no denying that. I just think there's an element of 'forget your club your school is more important' attitude from the schools that needs to be gotten rid of and both need to accommodate one another.

Read my post again, I'm suggesting that closed cup competitions are played in the various regions during these 3 months, I'm sure that all the regions have their own cup competitions that could be played then.....also the 'Open Cup' in NM is played at the time I'm suggesting the Munster Club competition finishes out and that doesn't seem to be an issue at the moment with GAA kicking in.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Obviously it'll need a bit of give and take from both sides, there's no denying that. I just think there's an element of 'forget your club your school is more important' attitude from the schools that needs to be gotten rid of and both need to accommodate one another.

Read my post again, I'm suggesting that closed cup competitions are played in the various regions during these 3 months, I'm sure that all the regions have their own cup competitions that could be played then.....also the 'Open Cup' in NM is played at the time I'm suggesting the Munster Club competition finishes out and that doesn't seem to be an issue at the moment with GAA kicking in.

I disagree on there being an element of forget your club your schools is more important but it can happen especially with kids who don't have any/many strong allegiances/connections with clubs.
And during these 3 months this is key part of season where kids are most likely going to be concentrating on rugby ahead of other sports. Delaying all major competitions just to suit a few is a nonsensical point and helps nobody but a few.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I disagree on there being an element of forget your club your schools is more important but it can happen especially with kids who don't have any/many strong allegiances/connections with clubs.
And during these 3 months this is key part of season where kids are most likely going to be concentrating on rugby ahead of other sports. Delaying all major competitions just to suit a few is a nonsensical point and helps nobody but a few.

I know for a fact that the 'B' schools players were told not to train/play for their clubs. That is why their is still another round of games left to play instead of the group stages being finished, the schools have serious power over the players as they can influence how the players are treated with respect to school work, etc during school hours.

Having a break in the competition would only improve the standard of the competition as it would allow the clubs to access to the schools players as it would be outside the schools competition.....hardly nonsensical IMO.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

I know for a fact that the 'B' schools players were told not to train/play for their clubs. That is why their is still another round of games left to play instead of the group stages being finished, the schools have serious power over the players as they can influence how the players are treated with respect to school work, etc during school hours.

Having a break in the competition would only improve the standard of the competition as it would allow the clubs to access to the schools players as it would be outside the schools competition.....hardly nonsensical IMO.

If the schools are mis treating in some way or another through intimidation or whatever the only way this will ever be solved is unfortunately someone going to the courts.,,
Having a break doesn't help clubs everywhere else though. Yes it affects North Munster clubs and its nearly always just them affected but delaying the competitions just to suit them isn't a good enough argument for that to happen.

Quin_Dub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If the schools are mis treating in some way or another through intimidation or whatever the only way this will ever be solved is unfortunately someone going to the courts.,,
Having a break doesn't help clubs everywhere else though. Yes it affects North Munster clubs and its nearly always just them affected but delaying the competitions just to suit them isn't a good enough argument for that to happen.

Sadly , it's more subtle and insidious than that..

After a particular school were told to release their players for club rugby, the players were taken in to a room on the Friday afternoon and told "You are of course free to play for your clubs this weekend , however we really hope that you will come to school on Monday morning fully rested and prepared for school and rugby training next week"

What 16/17 year old is going to turn out for their club after a passive aggressive statement like that from their teacher/coach??

But the School have told them it's ok to play for their clubs right???

The Lost Sheep

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Sadly , it's more subtle and insidious than that..

After a particular school were told to release their players for club rugby, the players were taken in to a room on the Friday afternoon and told "You are of course free to play for your clubs this weekend , however we really hope that you will come to school on Monday morning fully rested and prepared for school and rugby training next week"

What 16/17 year old is going to turn out for their club after a passive aggressive statement like that from their teacher/coach??

But the School have told them it's ok to play for their clubs right???

I know what you are saying but it can be done and kids will ignore that and its things like that that need to be challenged.

MrJones2013

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I know what you are saying but it can be done and kids will ignore that and its things like that that need to be challenged.

What will the kids ignore? They're not going to even dream of playing/training with their club for fear they will be dropped by the school and even worse targeted by staff members for 'turning their back' on the school.

Who is going to challenge things like this? As I said the schools are a law unto themselves, they set out and designed rules during the off season, presented them to the branch at the start of this season and have broken their own rules themselves with no sanctions coming from the branch.

D14Rugby

MrJones2013 wrote: »

What will the kids ignore? They're not going to even dream of playing/training with their club for fear they will be dropped by the school and even worse targeted by staff members for 'turning their back' on the school.

Who is going to challenge things like this? As I said the schools are a law unto themselves, they set out and designed rules during the off season, presented them to the branch at the start of this season and have broken their own rules themselves with no sanctions coming from the branch.

what rules have they broken?

Quin_Dub

D14Rugby wrote: »

what rules have they broken?

Panels were supposed to be submitted by early Sept (9th I think) - And if they were not submitted the schools were supposed to be barred from the Cup. Several schools didn't submit panels until December and of course they all played in the cup. But in the meantime , Clubs didn't know who was available and who wasn't.

Panels were supposed to be locked on submission in September with the only changes allowed being for injuries and if a player was removed they couldn't return. However they've removed players , added them back , changed and pretty much done whatever they please as far as panels go. One school made 14 changes to their panel in January and they were allowed.

Panels were only supposed to contain a maximum of 5 U17's , several teams have a lot more than 5 U'17's on their squads.

Basically , they've ignored virtually all the rules they themselves created and submitted and not a single sanction has been applied to a single school by the Munster Branch.

In Munster at least , the schools can do what they like when they like with apparent impunity.

MrJones2013

I know of a certain 'A' school player who transferred from a 'B' school last year and went straight in to the 'A' schools senior squad. This was a clear breach of a new rule where a player had to be attending the school for a certain amount of time (I think it's a minimum of 1 year) before he was eligible to play for his new school. The school got around it by re-registering the player with the IRFU under the same name just spelt differently, so essentially the player could have played for both club and school......the branch realised the error when someone finally noticed that a player with the same name (albeit a different spelling), address and date of birth had two registration numbers, but this was only after the player had played a number of games for the school (he hadn't played for his club during this time).

There was no sanction handed down to the school from the Branch despite a conscious decision being made by the school to re-register a player (he had played against them for his 'B' school in the past so they would have known that he had been already registered), clearly breaching the rules.

I'd be fairly confident that if this had been done by any club, and the player re-registered and picked to play in a 'closed' competition, the club would be expelled from the competition......pardon the pun but it is a definite case of 'different rules for different schools'.

The Lost Sheep

MrJones2013 wrote: »

What will the kids ignore? They're not going to even dream of playing/training with their club for fear they will be dropped by the school and even worse targeted by staff members for 'turning their back' on the school.

Who is going to challenge things like this? As I said the schools are a law unto themselves, they set out and designed rules during the off season, presented them to the branch at the start of this season and have broken their own rules themselves with no sanctions coming from the branch.

Kids can and do ignore what schools say about you are free to play for club but ...(what quin dub was saying)

Who do you think should be challenging this? The clubs who are affected. Many of whom are clubs where schools play their schools cup games.

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Panels were supposed to be submitted by early Sept (9th I think) - And if they were not submitted the schools were supposed to be barred from the Cup. Several schools didn't submit panels until December and of course they all played in the cup. But in the meantime, Clubs didn't know who was available and who wasn't.
Panels were supposed to be locked on submission in September with the only changes allowed being for injuries and if a player was removed they couldn't return. However they've removed players, added them back, changed and pretty much done whatever they please as far as panels go. One school made 14 changes to their panel in January and they were allowed.
Panels were only supposed to contain a maximum of 5 U17's, several teams have a lot more than 5 U'17's on their squads.
Basically, they've ignored virtually all the rules they themselves created and submitted and not a single sanction has been applied to a single school by the Munster Branch. In Munster at least, the schools can do what they like when they like with apparent impunity.

What do you propose to be done then? Why don't clubs try something different to bring attention to this? How many people outside of direct involvement know of the farcical situation that has been the case for years and ive been playing, coaching or refereeing youths rugby for 15 years....

So back to rugby. Any Munster 16s/18s Cup/Plate results??
I hear knock out draws have been made. Anyone know them??

The Lost Sheep

Some of Munster competitions are at semi final stages. Others in quarters. Some leagues in Connacht have finished and cups are ongoing...
What of other provinces?

Quin_Dub

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Some of Munster competitions are at semi final stages. Others in quarters. Some leagues in Connacht have finished and cups are ongoing...
What of other provinces?

Both the U16 and U18 Munster Youths cups are still at QF stage as a majority of the QF's were not played last weekend due to bad weather. Only 1 QF was played at U18 (Waterpark beating Young Munster) and 2 were played at U16.

Remaining QF's will be played this weekend , the Semi Finals will take place on St Patricks w/e and the finals the following week.

The Lost Sheep

Knock out games this weekend. Any thoughts on games?

Irish 19s squad picked and should be named soon.
There was 7/8 of 26 man squad for Munster u19s who played all age grade in clubs while another 2/3 moved to one of the 8 A schools in the last year or so. So 11/12 of 26 were club players. there is one exile playing and then the rest are schools.

Connacht playing Japan Sunday and then Japan play Leinster and Ireland

espn091

Are Japan playing Leinster? I have heard differently.

The Lost Sheep

espn091 wrote: »

Are Japan playing Leinster? I have heard differently.

Theyre not. Didnt mean to type that.

Leinster u19s are having a screening session/game in Dublin over the weekend though. 45/50 players involved.

irishbucsfan

espn091 wrote: »

Are Japan playing Leinster? I have heard differently.

Yeah I thought they weren't...

espn091

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Theyre not. Didnt mean to type that.

Leinster u19s are having a screening session/game in Dublin over the weekend though. 45/50 players involved.

They've had several screening sessions at this stage..

Quin_Dub

Munster U18 Club SF's this Sunday in Charleville.

Waterpark vs. Garryowen at 1PM and Ennis vs. Tralee at 2:45pm

Both sides have played each other before in the group stages.

Waterpark beat Garryowen 35-7 about a month ago (in Garryowen) and Ennis beat Tralee 7-0 in early January.


Ennis and Waterpark are unbeaten so far in this years competition.

Hard to see past Waterpark in the 1st game , but the 2nd game will be very close.

Final in Thomond park on 26th at 3:45pm

espn091

Gorey vs Wicklow in Premier U17 final.


Not that you'd know as Leinster don't cover club game.

Quin_Dub

espn091 wrote: »

Gorey vs Wicklow in Premier U17 final.


Not that you'd know as Leinster don't cover club game.

Not much better in Munster either...

Domestic Game homepage is littered with updates about the the schools competitions and not a dickie bird about the club game..

The Lost Sheep

espn091 wrote:

Not that you'd know as Leinster don't cover club game.

blame can't be put on solely Leinster staff who certainly could do more but club pros/coaches could certainly help do a lot more for coverage

Quin_Dub wrote:

Domestic Game homepage is littered with updates about the the schools competitions and not a dickie bird about the club game..

I have written articles for both websites. Schools games are midweek and communications/pr staff who mainly work 9-5 are at work. Youths games are weekends and more coverage will go to adult games which are on the same time. Clubs need to be better promoting games themselves. The use of the phrase pan munster for example isn't the term Munster rugby use to promote the competitions they use other terms. If people within clubs and parents etc as well as official Munster rugby social media used #mc16 etc then it could help on social media.
Like one of the best places for coverage of youths rugby in Munster is the facebook page "East Munster Youths Rugby"

espn091

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

blame can't be put on solely Leinster staff who certainly could do more but club pros/coaches could certainly help do a lot more for coverage

I have written articles for both websites. Schools games are midweek and communications/pr staff who mainly work 9-5 are at work. Youths games are weekends and more coverage will go to adult games which are on the same time. Clubs need to be better promoting games themselves. The use of the phrase pan munster for example isn't the term Munster rugby use to promote the competitions they use other terms. If people within clubs and parents etc as well as official Munster rugby social media used #mc16 etc then it could help on social media.
Like one of the best places for coverage of youths rugby in Munster is the facebook page "East Munster Youths Rugby"

Where do you think i got my info? Club facebook pages.. leinster couldnt co-ordinate resukts and publish a weekly update?

The Lost Sheep

espn091 wrote:

Where do you think i got my info? Club facebook pages.. leinster couldnt co-ordinate resukts and publish a weekly update?

probably could but that's a question that should be asked of the Leinster communications staff especially as they have a domestic pr/communications staff member who's role is to cover the domestic game at all levels

The Lost Sheep

Japan high schools xv beat Connacht u19s 24-10

Quin_Dub

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Munster U18 Club SF's this Sunday in Charleville.

Waterpark vs. Garryowen at 1PM and Ennis vs. Tralee at 2:45pm

Both sides have played each other before in the group stages.

Waterpark beat Garryowen 35-7 about a month ago (in Garryowen) and Ennis beat Tralee 7-0 in early January.


Ennis and Waterpark are unbeaten so far in this years competition.

Hard to see past Waterpark in the 1st game , but the 2nd game will be very close.

Final in Thomond park on 26th at 3:45pm

Garryowen beat Waterpark 20-15 , with Waterpark getting a try in the final whistle.. Garryowen OH controlled the game and the conditions keeping Waterpark pinned back all game, forcing them to attack from deep all game.

Ennis won the 2nd semi in a nail-biter.. 20-17 , Tralee spent the final 5-6 minutes camped on the Ennis line pushing for a try, but Ennis held on.

Final next Sunday in Thomond at 3:45pm

The Lost Sheep

Thurles beat Nenagh in 18s Plate semi 10-7.
They play Mallow in final
Old Christians play 'haven in 18s Bowl final

Cobh and Skibb drew 19-19 in 16s cup semi but Skibb advanced on most trys/first try ruling and Kinsale beat Waterpark 17-7
Sundays Well beat Highfield 15-7 and Crk Con beat Nenagh 21-7 in 16s Plate semis.