A restoration tale (with pics)

vicwatson

Hi dnme,

I want to confirm I am now officially addicted to the apple turnovers from Lidl and it's all your fault as you photographed and displayed one in this thread a while back

They are flamin' gorgeous and at only 0.69cent each.... I won't be able to pass the bread aisle now !!:cool::cool:

It BeeMee

dnme wrote: »

I presume I will have to get the trailer fully fitted?

What state is the trailer in these days? You haven't mentioned it in a while, which means you've done little else with it?

blindsider

dnme wrote: »

vic

Many thanks for a great post. A share scheme or any scheme that involves money is a no go to be honest. I have already had a very kind offer of some cash and turned it down. It's just an old boat, no need, and I like to retain independence etc. Anyone and I mean anyone is more than welcome to a spin in this old tub whenever they want. I'd be happy to meet people and take them out on the water.


I was lying awake thinging about it many's a night and I wondered, would she be sea worthy? at least close to shore? Would it be an idea to run it around the entire coast of Ireland for charity or something? It would give a lot of people an opportunity to see/visit it, and it would make a great season "three" to this tale.

What do people think?

What a stupendously good idea! In fact, it's a superb idea. You really really should do this. It'd give us all sth to look forward to and you to work towards.

The charity thing is a nice idea - but there's be a fair bit of extra work involved. RNLI is an obvious one, but there are lots of very worthy causes out there.

You would definitely have to do a video diary thingy, and line up a camcorder at each port of call. From e.g. Killybegs to Waterford is ideal for cruising - lots of harbours etc and no shortage of moorings - good scenery also.

Keep the thinking hat on and the enthusiasm going - you're doing a great job!

BTW - how about a nice flowery shower cap to keep the epoxy away from your hair???

dnme

It BeeMee wrote: »

What state is the trailer in these days? You haven't mentioned it in a while, which means you've done little else with it?

South Dakota! ke ke ke

its as per its last update, painted, needs all roller fittings.

dnme

I aint in no mood to write anything. I'm miserable, soaked and covered in epoxy. The video and photos in todays update show a lovely neat organised setup...things went a tad downhill after I put the camera down. I have the seat left overnight with about 20 clamps (more than pictured). A lot of the cloth tabs underneath just would not play ball, also I ended up gouging a lot of them out when trying to prize support uprights in underneath.

The old seat grp is all uneven, I ended up trying to get it to sit down with concrete blocks. Then I managed to break it, then a cup of epoxy cured on me, burning my hand in the process. I used nearly a full 3kg epoxy kit today, plus every last ounce of my endurance, patience and .......well humanity itself I've had enough!

Why for the love of sweet devine Linda Lusardi, could Norman not have put in top access panels in their seats ????? The amount os space wasted (and for a small boat) was criminal. Norman.......I hate you! Horrible horrible horrible work. There's only one way to piss about with jayzzzzzezzzz fcukin epoxy.....and that's WITH gravity, and with full easy access, preferably at a nice work bench in a nice dry heated garage. Epoxy....I hate you.


1. Useless piece of inane crap. Enjoy!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft602DnNwNs

2. Starting out nice and neat, dry and with a plan. Cloth pieces for the seat aperture reduction.



3. Using up old woven roving pieces to add tabbing to the assembly underside. Look how neat it all looks......YOU SHOULD SEE IT NOW!!:mad:



4. After about three hours, getting there, but epoxy curing too fast and tabs underneath gone beyond tacky, some of em are still up in place, some just falling away. Heartbreaking when it takes serious acrobatics and physical pain to reach in to them and try and "persuade" them to BLOODYWELL stick!!!! breathe....breathe.....breathe....phone anger management sponsor.......



5. You want to talk about bad hair days??? huh??? My hair is scarce, and this photo does not really show the lumps of epoxy in it. If I cut them out I'll practically be bald.



6. Linda Lusardi....look at her there:cool: Starting to feel a little better (Sexist ???? GTFO!!!)

fergal.b

God I hope you didn't break that mirror :eek: get it back in the house and rap it up in a duvet.:D
It's looking good and will be fine when you put the lids on they will really change the look of the cabin.

Jack_regan

dnme wrote: »

Yeah Slig & Fergal, that sounds interesting.
Slig, tell me, do you think we could put the boat in th water for a quick test as discussed before? iWhile I have total access to the hull floor and before I paint over any cracks, I'd love to see how she behaves / sits. See if she feels straight after the keel repair, balance both bow stern and port starboard and of course any leaks etc.

Would you be game for this? What do I need to do? I presume I will have to get the trailer fully fitted?

I'm glad you are thinking of getting the boat in the water soon before you go any further. I definitely think this would be worthwhile at this stage for all the reasons you have outlined. I'd hate to see you having the boat totally finished before you test launched her and then discovering that there was water getting in somewhere etc. Don't forget the life jacket!

Thanks for the post, not long to go now until I'll be allowed to use the "thanks button", (bloody rules!) I'd say there are a good few people reading this who are not registered and just visit as guests, I was one of these people until a few weeks ago, it's really easy to join up and of course it has the obvious advantages of being able to get involved in the discussion. So come on now guests join up and get involved!

dnme

Watching Ireland play soccer is akin to watching a spider trying to climb out of the bath. There is almost an inevitability to the failure. Sit back and play defensive until the first minute of extra time, then start playng soccer...........................bit late.............again!

Well folks, the scissors has been out. It was the only thing for it. I hacked the gank out of my hair. I could stand it na-more. Aw to be able to run my fingers through my hair once again and imagine I'm good lookin and featuring on a 70's hair ad.

dnme

Folks,

Thinking about the trailer. The keel rollers are the issue, the trailer central span is a hollow steel beam, 100mm wide by 50mm high. So I am wondering is it possible to source a keel roller bracket / U-bolt combination that would fit around this? Or an alternative solution for fitting the rollers? All of the roller brackets I am finding on Ebay have a 40-70mm U-bolt fitting.

This is the trailer before it wa spainted, the only photo I can find of it

ValerieR

Wow - your work on the bench access is something else. Well done, it can't be easy to be working in these conditions. I am however surprised to see your mirror isn't covered in epoxy too !!!

Keep the chin up ... the next part of the project is bound to be less of a hair-losing experience !

I agree it might be a good idea to test her out on the water at this stage. Would it be a good way to observe the waterline too, though she will be heavier once finished with the engine and various other equipments ?

The "Dnme On Tour around Ireland" is a great idea too. Keep us informed ...

I think you may as well think about keeping indoors at the weekend - I don't think the weather forecast is good.

Have a nice weekend.
Valerie

dnme

ValerieR wrote: »

Wow - your work on the bench access is something else. Well done, it can't be easy to be working in these conditions. I am however surprised to see your mirror isn't covered in epoxy too !!!

Keep the chin up ... the next part of the project is bound to be less of a hair-losing experience !

I agree it might be a good idea to test her out on the water at this stage. Would it be a good way to observe the waterline too, though she will be heavier once finished with the engine and various other equipments ?

The "Dnme On Tour around Ireland" is a great idea too. Keep us informed ...

I think you may as well think about keeping indoors at the weekend - I don't think the weather forecast is good.

Have a nice weekend.
Valerie

Hey Valarie, as a matter of interest, I was wondering, how do you deal with your dog on the boat with regard to his taking care of business ? What if you are out on the water for a long time etc?

BTW, Mirror got lots of epoxy on it, but it's a sheet of glass so easy to clean, infact I didn't even use acetone on it.

Jack_regan

dnme wrote: »

Folks,

Thinking about the trailer. The keel rollers are the issue, the trailer central span is a hollow steel beam, 100mm wide by 50mm high. So I am wondering is it possible to source a keel roller bracket / U-bolt combination that would fit around this? Or an alternative solution for fitting the rollers? All of the roller brackets I am finding on Ebay have a 40-70mm U-bolt fitting.

This is the trailer before it wa spainted, the only photo I can find of it

Just having a quick look on Google, 100mm wide by 50 mm high doesn't appear to be readily available, now if it was the other way around;50mm wide by 100mm high, there is plenty of them, but that is not much use to you.

Only thing I can think is to make your own u brackets to fit whatever rollers you buy out of some galvanised steel threaded bar 10-12 mm and shaping it into a u- shape with a vice and a heavy hammer.

Life is just not fair, ah sure if it was going to be easy everybody would be doing it!

I'd make the u bolts a good bit longer than you think you need them (you can always cut off the excess after once the boat is sitting in position) to allow for the shape of the centre keel, i.e. I don't imagine it is dead straight so u might need a bit of adjustment up and down with the rollers.

Anyway hopefully somebody else can direct you to somewhere that is selling the u bolts you need.

Keep the faith

ValerieR

dnme wrote: »

Hey Valarie, as a matter of interest, I was wondering, how do you deal with your dog on the boat with regard to his taking care of business ? What if you are out on the water for a long time etc? ...

Good question ... I did wonder too ... so far, at sea with him for maybe 10 hours, he's always crossed his legs until the next landfall. I did a little reading up on the subject as I was wondering myself. There are quite a few mentions of this concern on sailing/boating discussion fora (and some funny stories of people trying to entice them to do it ). Some dogs seem to get the idea of going on deck while some consider the boat like home ... until, seemingly, they really have to go ... Hard to explain it to them indeed. I guess once they do it and realise that you are encouraging them , they do relax about it.

Valerie

dnme

Jack_regan wrote: »

Just having a quick look on Google, 100mm wide by 50 mm high doesn't appear to be readily available, now if it was the other way around;50mm wide by 100mm high, there is plenty of them, but that is not much use to you.

Only thing I can think is to make your own u brackets to fit whatever rollers you buy out of some galvanised steel threaded bar 10-12 mm and shaping it into a u- shape with a vice and a heavy hammer.

Life is just not fair, ah sure if it was going to be easy everybody would be doing it!

I'd make the u bolts a good bit longer than you think you need them (you can always cut off the excess after once the boat is sitting in position) to allow for the shape of the centre keel, i.e. I don't imagine it is dead straight so u might need a bit of adjustment up and down with the rollers.

Anyway hopefully somebody else can direct you to somewhere that is selling the u bolts you need.

Keep the faith

The U-bolts are only half the problem, I would still need to find keel roller brackets that had bolt holes wider than 100mm apart and that it seems is impossible. I've searched high and low.

Would it be possible to use standard keel roller brackets, and then drill right through the beam (top and bottom), using two standalone bolts up through the beam, into the bracket etc?

Jack_regan

dnme wrote: »

The U-bolts are only half the problem, I would still need to find keel roller brackets that had bolt holes wider than 100mm apart and that it seems is impossible. I've searched high and low.

Would it be possible to use standard keel roller brackets, and then drill right through the beam (top and bottom), using two standalone bolts up through the beam, into the bracket etc?

You could do it like that alright, I'm not sure I'd want to do it that way myself though just in case you want to move the rollers forward or back on the trailer in the future,( you wouldn't want to end up with a load of holes on the centre beam).

Not sure if this would be an option you would consider but this crowd do an 8 inch roller: http://www.banburytrailers.co.uk/index.php?cPath=71_101 (I'm not recommending them, they just happened to be at the top of the list when I looked it up on google). There would be plenty of space to drill a couple of new holes and stick with the u brackets around the centre beam of the trailer. The advantage I see of the wider roller is that when your coming out of the water you have more surface area to aim for.

I know the wider the roller the higher the cost and I presume your going to have three or four centre keel rollers, so it will start to add up, but sure you're getting used to costs sky rocketing by now.

Is it that time already.

dnme

Jack_regan wrote: »

You could do it like that alright, I'm not sure I'd want to do it that way myself though just in case you want to move the rollers forward or back on the trailer in the future,( you wouldn't want to end up with a load of holes on the centre beam).

Not sure if this would be an option you would consider but this crowd do an 8 inch roller: http://www.banburytrailers.co.uk/index.php?cPath=71_101 (I'm not recommending them, they just happened to be at the top of the list when I looked it up on google). There would be plenty of space to drill a couple of new holes and stick with the u brackets around the centre beam of the trailer. The advantage I see of the wider roller is that when your coming out of the water you have more surface area to aim for.

I know the wider the roller the higher the cost and I presume your going to have three or four centre keel rollers, so it will start to add up, but sure you're getting used to costs sky rocketing by now.

Is it that time already.

Yeah Jack you beat me to it. I just realised that I will need the brackets to be movable along the beam for adjustability to suit the profile of the keel.

So an 8" bracket, and homemade u-bolts made out of thread bar. Is that where we are? Jesus nothing about this boat is simple eh.

dnme

Folks

I'm gonna run a shopping list by you here and wonder what you think. The plan is to drill the keel brackets and use homemade u-bolts made from threaded bar.

Then I have gone for flat rollers for the sides as opposed to dumbell or rib. Should I? I figure, flat and wide will suit the flat hull or maybe the side keels can sit on them. Either way flat rollers seem good to me. What do you think?

Also looking at ratchet strap and winch. Is 960Kg rating ok?

Keel Rollers, set of 4
Side Rollers, complete assembly, set of 4
Winch. 960Kg
Ratchet Strap, 6m, 5 tonne

Is this the way you folks would go?

fergal.b

I know you don't want to hear this but I think you should go for a new or newer trailer, by the the time you buy all the parts including new suspension that I think it will need put it together and paint it you will be close to a €1000 or more and with the new laws in 2012 you still won't have a legal trailer as any trailer and boat over 750kg will have to have a breaking system. You have been very particular about your restoration and I think you should be more so about the trailer as this will be carrying your baby.:)

dnme

fergal.b wrote: »

I know you don't want to hear this but I think you should go for a new or newer trailer, by the the time you buy all the parts including new suspension that I think it will need put it together and paint it you will be close to a €1000 or more and with the new laws in 2012 you still won't have a legal trailer as any trailer and boat over 750kg will have to have a breaking system. You have been very particular about your restoration and I think you should be more so about the trailer as this will be carrying your baby.:)

Fergal, what do you mean by braking system? do you mean active brakes that engage when you press the pedal in the car? If so, how does that work? How is it connected? ...or are you tralking about a brake that you can engage when the trailer is stationery (to keep it that way) like a hand brake?

A new / sh trailer for this boat is going to cost what? minimum €600-800? but probably a lot more (having just had a cursory look around donedeal). I don't think I can do that, certainly not this year. Then there is the old trailer. It's sitting there, I've already done a lot of work on it, another 200 quid would get it up and running fully. If I leave it now - then it's simply scrap. If I fit it out, then it's a boat trailer, it can be altered to single axle if need be. And it can be sold as a boat trailer if I do decide to sell it and replace it eventually. WRT the law, I'd be towing it 3 miles down to L. key, I have the option of back roads.

What to do? This is a dilema. Does anyone else have an opinion.

What should I do?
a. Restore the old ?
b. Save up and buy a new/sh trailer ?

TopTec

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Vehicles-and-Legislation/Vehicle-Standards/Trailers/

I think yours will fall into the O2 category dnme. If you only intend using it on the back roads to the lake I would carry on as you intend. If there is a chance of using it farther afield then go for the buy another route. (If you can find one in your price range with an independant braking system)

There will be no resale value on your restored one however as presumably the trailer is designed for a weight greater than 750kg.

So if you do decide to restore it you will have to keep it.

TT

dnme

TopTec wrote: »

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Vehicles-and-Legislation/Vehicle-Standards/Trailers/

I think yours will fall into the O2 category dnme. If you only intend using it on the back roads to the lake I would carry on as you intend. If there is a chance of using it farther afield then go for the buy another route. (If you can find one in your price range with an independant braking system)

There will be no resale value on your restored one however as presumably the trailer is designed for a weight greater than 750kg.

So if you do decide to restore it you will have to keep it.

TT

What about this for a plan......
I need to get the boat onto the water now to test it. So I need a trailer now. I have no cash left and live week to week so what if I were to go ahead and get the parts for the existing trailer. Get the boat on it and tested down at the lake (less than 1/2 mile by road). Then get the boat back on chocs and put the trailer up for sale. I realise it'll be tricky to sell but it can be priced right (all I want is the money back). I then have nearly a year to sell it and get a new one.

Fergal...what do you think? Anyone else have opinions?

EDIT: BTW, also meant to ask, how do I determine my weight requirements? What weight rating do I need for my boat?

Jack_regan

I'd not heard that there were new trailer regulations coming in 2012. But just going on the current regulations I think as long as the trailer and boat and outboard together weigh under 750kg and it is a single axle trailer then you do not require brakes on it. Are these regulations changing? or will the 750kg weight limit still be exempt from having a braking system?

According to the Norman website your boat weighs somewhere around 350 kg.
http://www.normanboats.co.uk/norman_range.htm

By the time you add another few bucket fulls of epoxy to it you could end up with the boat up to 400kg perhaps.

I'm guessing your trailer weighs about 150-200 kg, it's hard to tell of course without feeling the weight of it, i'd say you might have a better idea of this?

Anyway lets say you're up to 600kg now and then if you allow another 50- 100 kg for the outboard depending on what size your going for and then if your having a back up outboard.

I'd say you'll manage to keep the combination weight under 750 kg.

I mean if your just going to be using it locally then I would be tempted to stick with what you've got and go ahead and buy the rollers etc.

Obviously if the regulations are changing next year and 750 kg trailers are going to have to have brakes then ignore all of the above. I'd be surprised if the are, sure you'd have nearly every trailer in the country off the road, surely not? More clarity required from the experts please.

Perhaps a few more pictures of the trailer to show condition of suspension etc. might help to work out how much you're going to have to spend to get it roadworthy.

A nice shiny new trailer would be lovely to have but unfortunately it will cost you dear and it would be more likely to be stolen if left unattended whilst your out on the boat.

Anyway I wouldn't rush into anything, wait and see what a few other people think before making your decision.

fergal.b

I think your boat and that trailer will be about a ton or more loaded, if you meet a car coming around a corner on a country road there is no way you will be able to stop.To add a breaking system you will need a hitch like this that compresses when you break and pulls on a break cable on the trailer you will also need new wheel hubs with a breaking system.



I think you would be just throwing good money after bad trying to do up the trailer, even if you are just going a few miles down the road to launch it you never know what will happen out on the water, if the boat breaks down close to a port on the other side of the lake it could be a long drive to go and get it.
Try and see if you can get a lone of a trailer before the boats come out of the water for the winter there should be a few about local sailing clubs.Put the word out that you are looking for one you never know what will turn up or if you want to drive up to me I will give you a lone of one.

Have a look at your car manual that should give you what you are able to tow.
These are the new trailer regulations .http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Vehicles-and-Legislation/Vehicle-Standards/Trailers/

dnme

Having spent a day looking online at trailers, prices range from 1000 - 2800. Just not an option. This is a whole new can of worms right here.

TopTec

Guys, the point here is not what the boat weighs or what dnme puts in it or how much the engine weighs it is all about the Design Gross Weight of the trailer.

In order to determine what braking systems it needs under the new EU regulations, one has to know what the DGW of the trailer is. Forget any load it may or may not carry.

I doubt that there is any plate in existence on the chassis of the trailer to suggest what that DGW is.... is there dnme?

Also there must be hundreds of trailers that will fall foul of this regulation when it comes in - I don't see a big push by the authorities happening to enforce this.

As it clearly was originally a close coupled twin I reckon its original capacity is more than the 3/4 tonne threashold but........ how does one prove this?

Any prosecuting authority would have to prove the DGW before any process under this regulation.

I still lean towards refurbing the old one and including a breakaway harness.

TT

Jack_regan

Is there a weigh bridge near you that you could bring the trailer to and get it weighed. This would give you a more accurate idea of how much the whole package is going to weigh. I still think you'll be under 750 kg and as far as I can make out within the regulations both existing and impending. Of course this very much depends how much weight your going to add during the fit out with the floor/ new benches etc that your planning on putting in.

You don't strike me as the kind of guy that's going to be driving along narrow country lanes with the boat and trailer in tow at 80 kmph just because your within the letter of the law. If you take it slowly sure you should be fine with the trailer you have doing the three mile journey down to the launch site, provided your car is capable of towing 750 kg.

Jack_regan

Sorry Top tec, you must have posted your reply while I was still writing mine, I stand corrected but like you say none of these homemade trailers are plated. Unless the authorities are going to bring in regulations that all trailers have to be tested and plated. I'm pretty sure dnme was planning on removing the second axle.

Those links to the rsa website don't really spell out (in laymans terms at least) what is actually going to happen in 2012. Do you have a more comprehensive understanding of what is going to happen with existing un plated trailers next year? Is there going to be some kind of mandatory testing of existing trailers or are the new regulations to cover all newly made trailers?

dnme

There is no plate on the existing trailer. It is a homemade job. I have already spent money stripping and painting it, I posted extensively about the price of tyres for it etc. I cannot ever afford to spend 1500+ on a trailer. If thats my only option....then this journey is over and I'll put the boat up for sale as an ongoing project. I've had more than enough of this tbh. Too much now, just too dam much.

TopTec

No worries Jack, apology not necessary.

(DGW = Design Gross Weight)

I have some experience in legal matters so will use my limited skills to try to make the Governments explanation a bit more straight-forward.

Say I have a trailer, DGW of 0.74 tonnes, towed by a 2 tonne Jeep. No brakes necessary as the weight of the trailer does not exceed half the DGW of the towing vehicle. If I wanted to tow the trailer using a 900 kg Yaris, then the trailer must have brakes as the trailer weight exceeds half the DGW of the yaris.

If I have a trailer with a DGW of 750kg to 3.5 tonnes then it must have brakes fitted regardless of the towing vehicle.

Any trailer that has a DGW exceeding 3.5 tonnes is legally equal to an artic trailer and needs testing and licensing as all lorry trailers do.

Now dnme has a trailer which he intends adapting and modifying to meet his needs. So there is no recognised DGW. However, the new law caters for this by stating that an automotive engineer can determine the DGW of dnme's trailer using his skill and experience.

If the DGW comes in under 750 kg and dnme is towing with a reasonable heavy vehicle he is fine and dandy.

Using the limited knowledge I have of trailer construction I still think he will be fine.

Under the new law all NEW trailers will have plates fitted stating their DGW.

Old ones that fall in the 03 category, exceeding 3.5 tonnes that don't have plates fitted should be tested and the DGW determined by an engineer.

Bottom line is that the legislation is there if they want to use it but like everything here in Ireland as long as one is sensible you will be fine.

As a post script I want to thank you dnme for the lamb shank recommendation - Had one tonight - Delicious!! ;)

fergal.b

Well put Toptec, so what are you driving dnme, I hope it's not a smart car