A restoration tale (with pics)

dnme

Folks

Tell me, how do I go about glassing the hull timbers back into place?

I have the timbers dried out. I will cut out any rotten wood and full with epoxy or filler. I will then bolt the timbers back up to the hull underside. But then I need to glass these over. How do I do that?

I don't think woven coving will wrap around the toght corners and angles involved. If I do find a suitable cloth, Do I make the entire patch away from the job and then apply it or do I add layer by layer? Remember I will be working against gravity up under the boat.

The patch will be mated to the hull underside which is gelcoat, do I grind this away or lay the glass over it? Do I taper the patch back to the surface (how do I get it flush)?

This is the keel (two of them) that I will be working with)

fergal.b

Bolt it on with epoxy mixed with filler. A 6oz -8oz cloth will form to that shape even the cloth you have should work it's very flexible when it's wet, just come out about 1/4" around it onto the hull then mix some more epoxy with fillers and run it around the timber with a spoon so the fillers covers the 1/4" of cloth that will give a nice strong clean finish.

dnme

fergal.b wrote: »

Bolt it on with epoxy mixed with filler. A 6oz -8oz cloth will form to that shape even the cloth you have should work it's very flexible when it's wet, just come out about 1/4" around it onto the hull then mix some more epoxy with fillers and run it around the timber with a spoon so the fillers covers the 1/4" of cloth that will give a nice strong clean finish.

How many layers of cloth would you use?

fergal.b

dnme wrote: »

How many layers of cloth would you use?

Just the one will be fine that's all I have on my hull, my keel is just bare wood with 4 coats of resin and no cloth.:)

dnme

fergal.b wrote: »

Just the one will be fine that's all I have on my hull, my keel is just bare wood with 4 coats of resin and no cloth.:)

Bear in mind, the previous keel grp covering was 4-5mm thick, so the overkill in me wants to do 3-4 layers, I'm thinking I'll cut the pieces the same size to measure. Then get a bit of polythene, wax it up, lay the cloth on it and wet each piece through. In the meantime, I will have applied epoxy to keel/hull and let it get real tacky. Then take the patch with polythene cover on outside and apply it to keels. Roll it and use a few pinch clamps and a little light pressure etc to press it into place. What do you think of this?

Also, fellas on other forums are advising me to use biaxial cloth for the job. CFS in UK do it but are expensive and want £28 to deliver. Does anyone know of anywhere that does biaxial (Ireland or UK), need to get a bit cheap(ish) otherwise I will make do with 280gsm woven coving, although I am running out of this too, need to get a bit more from MBFG (who don't do biaxial btw)

Jesus I waffle on don't I

fergal.b

These boats were made so they could dry out on a beach and could take a bit of a beating, you will be fine with your cloth and a few coats of resin. If you want to find out how strong it is coat a bit of scrap wood with cloth and a few coats of resin and when it's set beat it with a hammer

dnme

fergal.b wrote: »

These boats were made so they could dry out on a beach and could take a bit of a beating, you will be fine with your cloth and a few coats of resin. If you want to find out how strong it is coat a bit of scrap wood with cloth and a few coats of resin and when it's set beat it with a hammer

Thanks F
I am a sucker for the overkill, especially when I have no experience at something. I just hope I get all the rot out of the dam timber, I don't want to seal in any more problems and I'm finding it literally impossible to get my hands on hardwood.

I have phoned a few joiners, stair makers etc and they said they would phone me back :cool:. Once that happens you can't really phone them again. Went to Brooks in Sligo, they have only large boards €200+ etc.

If anyone has any hardwood, (any scrap, off cuts, wnything) that they don't want, please let me know.

mikesvr6

Great thread, thoroughly enjoy reading your progress. About the hardwood have you looked into railway sleepers? What are the dimensions you are looking for?

dnme

mikesvr6 wrote: »

Great thread, thoroughly enjoy reading your progress. About the hardwood have you looked into railway sleepers? What are the dimensions you are looking for?

I'm looking for leat sizes such as 1x2 or similar in any lengths I can get from 1ft onwards. Also need a couple of 2x2 or similar 8ft+ lengths to make up strakes. I realise I will more than likely have to pay for these.

Railway sleepers are problematic in that its a massive job to cut them down, I'd need to get access to a re-saw, also they are saturated with creosote which is not great for my needs.

dnme

Got my hardwood sorted out. Many thanks to Ian at Hessions in Sligo (they make coffins). They have a fantastic workshop in Sligo, a fascinating place. Got a few nice pieces of oak for stringers and strakes.

Slig

Something just sounds abit creepy about building a boat from coffin parts! Give me a shout if you need a table saw. Its not a professionally accurate one but does cut straight

fergal.b

Slig wrote: »

Something just sounds abit creepy about building a boat from coffin parts! Give me a shout if you need a table saw. Its not a professionally accurate one but does cut straight

I don't know it could be cool.:D

dnme

Be a great name for the boat

Imagine it on both sides of the bow......."The Coffin"

dnme

Slig wrote: »

Something just sounds abit creepy about building a boat from coffin parts! Give me a shout if you need a table saw. Its not a professionally accurate one but does cut straight

Slig, I might take you up on that. What day/time suits you?

Silver Breeze

Hello, I have been admiring your work and may be able to help with your two keels.

As I understand it, you are able to remove the two keels, tidy any gouges / rotten bits with filler and wish to encapsulate them with grp before bolting them back in place.

You have curves to deal with when layering on glass.

May I recommend "combination mat," a powder bound chopped mat needled to a woven roving. The thickness of the fabric is denoted by its weight per sq. metre. Easy to work with, drapes well, and epoxy friendly because it is powder bound.

Available from Marine and Industrial Distribution Ltd in Baldonnel Industrial Estate. www.mid.ie Ring and ask to speak with Liam (also has good prices in SP Systems epoxy resin.)

Assuming you can take the two keels to a work bench:

1 -- clean, dry, fill any gouges, voids, etc with epoxy thickened with colloidal silica. Sand fair with 80 grit. Clean with copious acetone.

2 -- protect the surface that mates to the underside of the hull with something epoxy can't stick to. I would recommend black Silage Tape, available at your local co-op. Layer on the tape, trim the edges.

3 -- Because you will wish, in future, to dry out the boat on beaches (sandy or pebbly) I would prefer to have three layers of combi mat on the bottom surfaces. Cut two layers to roughly to shape, the third larger layer will wrap around the complete keels.

4 -- Take advantage of the fact that epoxy will not stick to polythene, so you need a bit of transparent builder's film or similar. Not cling film (too thin) but plastic film that is transparent and flexible.

5 -- Coat the upside down keels on the workbench with neat epoxy and let stand until tacky. Take two precut pieces of combimat that roughly match the shape of the bottom of the keel, place them on a piece of builders film, use an old credit card or similar plastic card to laminate epoxy onto the mat. Then take the film and wet mat and offer up (down) to the bottom of the keels. Squeegee away excess resin using the dry side of the polythene film. Leave the film in place. Perhaps place weights (sand bags or bricks or somesuch on top of the film.) When cured, the film will easily peel away from the two layers of combimat. Clean away any amine blush with a green kichen scrubby and lots of fresh water. Any likely overspill of combimat and epoxy dribbles can be easily sanded away with 80 grit.

6 -- Next, the encapsulate layer of combimat. You'll need to cut darts (using sharp scissors) where the cloth turns corners. Try to get a single piece of cloth to encapsulate the entire keel (except for the hull mating surface.) Again, builders film is your friend. Coat the entire keel with neat epoxy resin and let it go tacky. Then, as above, laminate resin into the pre-cut cloth then drape it in place, using squeegee thru the film to smooth and coax the corners. You may need something like ratchet straps, duct tape, anything to compress the curves and corners. Don't worry too much about overlaps or wrinkles, they can all be sanded smooth when finished.

7 -- When cured, sand smooth or use West's Fine fairing popwder for a smoothing layer, easily sanded when cured.

8 -- Bolt the keels to the hull. Remove the silage tape from the upper surface. Everybody likes to use Sikaflex to bond keels to hulls. Good stuff. Expensive stuff. May I suggest Tec-7 from your local builder's merchant will do the job perfectly for €12.99 a tube. You'll need to make new keel bolts to draw the keels up to the hull from below. Get a length of 8 or 10 mm stainless threaded rod and sufficient nuts. You'll need ss washers that are 12 or 16 mm in outside diameter. Drill bolt holes thru the keels (and thru your nice new glass layers.) (may need to hire long drill bits.)

On the underside, use a spade bit to open the drilled holes to match the diameter of the washers, and just deep enough to hide bolt heads. On the underside, you'll need two nuts on each bolt locked to each other. When offered up, tighten inside the hull to draw the Tec-7 coated keel into place.
Use a teaspoon to smooth the Tec-7 at the keel-hull joint

When tight, you have exposed keelbolt heads hiding inside the drilled keel on the underside. Epoxy resin with chopped up glass strands makes a tough mush that you can trowel into place, using film to keep it from dripping out as it cures.

9 -- when fully cured and any amine blush cleaned, prime it with primocon, sand and finish paint.

Hope this helps.

Combimat used on my friend's race boat: http://www.sail.ie/ForeSpar/thruhulls.htm

Some more epoxy repair tips and tricks: http://www.sail.ie/maint.htm -- mostly dinghy repairs but you might find somethin useful.

dnme

Hi Silver Breeze

Good post and many thanks. Some interesting points you raise and I may well take some of your points on board. Interesting idea to add two layers of glass to the keel edge on a bench. That would make life easier alright.

I think I am going to stick to woven coving because I already have it, and I am finding it hard to get biaxial cloth in the island of Ireland for some strange reason. English companies want 20-30 quid to deliver, not gonna happen. I will cut woven coving at 45 degrees and alternate the weave so that I am easing the angles for the glass to go through. Also I have a couple of tubes of sikaflex that I won on ebay recently so I'll use them.

I'll be using the old original keel timbers, they are already drilled so before I apply epoxy or glass, I will need to thread the new bolts (already sourced) through and fil in the deep countersinks with filler.

I assume you mean that after I apply the two layers of edge glass and the wraparound layer, I would then offer the keel up to the boat, glue, bolt and then ......add another layer of glass that covers the keel and mates with the hull surface ....yes? are we on the same page here?

dnme

Day 25 (Stringer theory)

A box arrived from Amazon this morning with sanding belts, sanding wheels, a pack of dust masks and my new Bosch angle grinder. I got a few fine hours of weather this evening so I went out to the to try out the new toy . It's a little beast let me tell you, infact using those sanding disks on a grinder is dangerous as you have to remove the guard. I already have a 1" gouge in my finger from learning this the hard way last week. Anyhow it works great. Remember that router that I bought on Ebay last week, well that fell through as the seller turned out to be a tosser so a quick paypal resolution centre case and I got my money back. So I'm still shopping for a router.

I started to grind the boat floor tonight and along with this, I decided to do some exploration drilling of the remaining stringers. Guess what . . .they are all saturated and rotten. I am taking them all up. I am a little worried about the main centre stringer. What is the architecture of the boat in relation to it and the keel underneath it? Having taken up the centre stringer, I seem to be left with a trench with a very rough hard substance in the bottom of it, is this the top of my keel? or is there a dual floor or what? Have a look at the videos and you'll see what I mean.

1. Let me show you around

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U98ytMa8SnU

2. Stringers
(appologies for the sniffles, I think that vast quantities of grp dust was getting to me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gJOx5mJ_Xc

3. More stringers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouqIkiowE64

Silver Breeze

dnme wrote: »

Hi Silver Breeze

I'll be using the old original keel timbers, they are already drilled so before I apply epoxy or glass, I will need to thread the new bolts (already sourced) through and fil in the deep countersinks with filler.

I assume you mean that after I apply the two layers of edge glass and the wraparound layer, I would then offer the keel up to the boat, glue, bolt and then ......add another layer of glass that covers the keel and mates with the hull surface ....yes? are we on the same page here?

Okay, you have new bolts, and you are correct, fill the countersink on the bottom of the keels after they have been attached to the underside of the hull.

Your Sikaflex will serve as an adhesive / filler and will ooze away from the joint as you tighten the keel bolts. Tip: tighten, clean way ooze with back of a spoon to make a nice smooth fillet. After 48 hours, give each bolt another half turn to further compress the Sika. No need to add an extra layer off glass that covers the keel and mates with the hull.

Your videos are good and I'm very sorry to see your saturated stringers. To learn what is underneath the fore / aft stringer, drill an exploratory hole with a 10mm bit. Fill it later. I doubt you have a double floor.

New stringers can be fashioned with any piece of timber, iroko to red deal. Use your grinder to smooth the hull where the old stringer glass is, measure your new timber, round off the top of each with a plane and glass over with polyester resin and csm. Three layers nicely laminated. Will last a very long time.

Off now to sail from DL to the Solent, back on Friday evening.

dnme

Thank you Silver Breeze, enjoy your trip, wanna swap boats?

I'm just wondering if there is anyone living near me who knows their way around boats and fibreglass? If so maybe you could drop in and have a look at the boat/keel situation? I really need another head here and the opinion of someone with a bit of experience.

If there's anyone around Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim area, gimmie a shout and I'll put the kettle on.

dnme

Day 26

Bit of a lazy day. I took the dog for a spin down to Athlone and picked me up a great little bargain - see photo #1. It's an AEG 18v cordless drill, comes as a kit with a 100pc tool set, 2 NiCad batteries and a charger all in a good carry case. €56, I kid you not. If you want one, see this thread. Bear in mind the make, AEG is a pro label, it's part of Millwaukee, really nice kit. On the way home, I stopped off at Gillooly's joinery in Roscommon as I noticed the door was open. Managed to get myself a few nice pieces of mahogany for €12. Also got some petrol in Knockcroghery for €143.9. A real thrifty day

I've been using up all my scraps over the past two evenings to make me a couple of decent chocs / stands for the boat. Up until now, I have had the boat resting on a series of cross timbers built up. That's all very well but what if you need to move them, say to access the hull underside right where the choc is? In my case I have to move about 30 pieces of timber. So a great way to use up all my scraps and offcuts was to build a couple of decent strong chocs. They work well.

I have let the central string channel dry out over the past couple of days and it has dried really well. This hints that the central keel may be good, if the keel was rotten and soaked, it would take that channel ages to dry - wouldn't it? I'm hoping I don't have to remove the dam keel.


1. Got this great bargain today, all for €54. If you want one, see this thread.




2. This is how I used to support the boat, a bitch if you had to move them.




3. Using up my scraps and off cuts to make some decent chocs to stand the boat on.




4. Works well and easy to move when you need access to the hull.




5. Stringer cavity seems to have dried out completely. I might drill a couple of holes into it to try and determine what exactly I am dealing with

dnme

Day 27

I finished cutting out the remaining rotten stringers and decided to bite the bullet and get cracking on grinding out the floor. Is it called the floor ?

Little did I realise what I was in for, I used the angle grinder with 40 grit sanding disks. I have never seen dust like it. It was simply sick. I filled a bucket and a half during the day, god knows whats gone into my lungs despite decent breath masks. Anyhow, I got is pretty much finished. So I think I am now ready to bed down stringers and then lay a layer of glass on the floor.

Here's some questions

1. Should I stop the demolition now? Have I gone far enough? If it was your boat, what would you be doing now?

2. How shall I do the stringers? I was thinking of bedding them into the original channels with a filler, letting them set up and then glassing them over, is this ok?

3. Do I need to bolt or wedge them in while they set up?

Finally, a bit of bad news last night. My laptop finally gave up. I have been patching it together for the past two years. It has no battery and wont take one. The power cable is taped up to the back of it and keeps cutting out. Last night it just cut out so often that I had to bite the bullet. I simply can't be without a computer and had been saving a little for just this event, but it means my bank balance is now bone dry. Could mean a temporary crisis with the boat, we'll have to see.


1. You've never seen dust like this



2. First time this floor has seen daylight since it left the factory.



3. It's great to get back to the original grp and I'm glad to report it's pretty healthy.

fergal.b

looking great, I'll swap you two buckets of sawdust for one of fiberglass

1. I would check the transom I'm not sure how your boat was made but a lot of them have plywood sandwiched between the fiberglass to give it strength and this tends to rot also look for cracks at each end of the transom.

2. Sounds good

3. Just wedge them or put a heavy weights on them if they are tin enough to bend, if they are thick you might have to shape them to the hull and add weights.

dnme

Fergal

Before bedding in stringers, do I need to worry about the boat sagging? I have the keel sitting on 2 chocks and have some balancers holding it upright on each side. Now that I have removed all original stringers and grinded the floor, I an wondering if the boat is retaining its natural shape up on those chocs. How would you choc it at this stage before bedding in stringers if at all?

fergal.b

It looks fine I don't think the stringers were doing much good anyway and the fiberglass should hold it's shape unless something is pushing hard against it.

dnme

OK, another question, I am thinking of using Epoxy all round as a filler, bedding, glue and what have you. Mixing in chopped strands and colloidal silica makes a fantastic and strong filler etc. So I need to stock up on more Epoxy when I get a few quid together.

MB Fibreglass are doing SP106 at a good price. Is this stuff ok? Is Epoxy just Epoxy or is there good and bad? The SP106 is a great price and because they are in the north, there is no fuss about delivery.

Their SP106 11kg is £150 inc vat, see here

Opinions?

fergal.b

I have never used sp 106 so I can't say, I use west system and get it from MPD, as long as it's suitable for marine use you should be ok.
You could also give these guys a call for a price they do good deals.
http://www.fibreglassdirect.co.uk/ and are based in Warrenpoint.

http://www.shorebreaksurfboards.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2 they are in Kerry.

http://www.marineparts.ie/paint-and-maintenance/epoxy-repair-kits/ They do large cans but it's not on there listing so might also be worth a call.

I wish lidi did epoxy .

RoryMurphyJnr

Fantastic thread, stumbled upon it by accident and now I'm hooked.
Can't wait to see the finished results.

dnme

I had just written about 1500 words for Day 28's post, when bang, the bloody laptop cut out. I had been typing directly into vBulletin so lost the entire dam post.

I'm off to see Slig now to cut some timbers on his table saw, I'll post day 28 later on (and this time I'll type it into notepad saving as I go before posting). Dam it!

dnme

Day 28

This beauty arrived this morning from Amazon. I'm a big fan of Amazon, been shopping with them for years. Free delivery and great prices on selected brands such as Bosch:). Great place for hardware bits and pieces, sanding belts, disks, bits etc. If you shop there, click "items elegible for free delivery" on the left. Once your order goes over £25, delivery is free. Beat that!

Time to start with the stringers. I started out today by milling down a nice piece of oak and a couple of pieces of mahogany. With the router I rounded over the stringer tops so that glass cloth will lay over them easily. For the central stringer I chamfered the bottom of the timber so that it would sit better in the channel. The original stringers were not continuous, they stopped at the bulkhead. I decided to cut out a piece of the bulkhead and fashion one continuous stringer. As I did not have a piece of oak long enough, I dowel jointed two pieces together.

The central stringer was sitting very proud of the floor as it seems the boat floor has a natural (I hope natural) curve along its length. So to get it to sit down, I decided to countersink SS screws into it and down into the original bond filler in the stringer channel. I placed small 3mm ply shims underneath the stringer (screwing through them) to prevent the stringer for being forced completely to the floor, I want to allow room underneath for some filler to allow good bedding.

As a filler, I decided to go all out with epoxy. I mixed up epoxy resin (well). Then into that I mixed glass chopped strands, and on top of that I mixed in colloidal silica. You end up with a stiff paste that lends itself very well to filling and filleting. So fill and fillet I did. My central stringer is now one single piece of wood the length of the boat. It's bedded and SS screwed in place and filleted along it's length. Towards evening I started on side stringers, I have left these bedded in overnight with concrete blocks weighing them down.

I used to do a bit of woodworking, but only with pine. Hardwood is a different ballgame and I get it now. It's beautiful stuff to work with. It's precise, looks, feels and smells great and it's heavy. Also gotta say I love using a router. It makes me feel "professional". Just looking at a piece of wood after running a roundover bit on it makes me happy. Ever watch Norm Abram - New Yankee Workshop? I used to be glued to it on the Discovery channel.

Quick word of thanks to Slig for the use of the table say this evening on a different project altogether. He brought me down to his missus's family's eh..."compound" in Knockvicar this evening and we milled wood in a great wee workshop that I'd kill for.


1. Routing hardwood makes me happy. Nice piece of oak rounded over and chamfered.



2. You can see on the left, my longest piece of oak was too short to run the length of the boat; so why not make one long stringer out of 2 pieces of oak dowel jointed together.



3. Poxy epoxy. Epoxy with a mix of glass strands and colloidal silica makes a great filling and bedding paste. It may be a bit of overkill and an expensive way to go but at this stage I want to do things right+1.



4. Stringer SS screwed, bedded and filleted in with epoxy glass strand paste. It came out great, looks professional and I'm delighted with the results. Next job will be to glass over these stringers with 5 or 6 layers of biaxial cloth.



5. Side stringers bedded and filleted in; weighed down for the night as I do not have the option of screwing these in.

ScabbyLeg

Fantastic description and photos. I am thoroughly enjoying this thread