Colt's .22 1911s

Voodoomelon

Well Walther are now producing .22 1911s under licence from Colt:

http://www.carl-walther.de/index.php?company=walther&lang=EN&content=products&hid=15&uid=8&product=1705



Was talking to a Garda today, a keen shooter and he says he can't find anyone willing/able to import them. I'd be interested in picking one up myself, any ideas?

FISMA

I would pass on this one, although, I have not seen this 1911 or heard anything bad about it.

The Colt 1911 is, in my opinion, one of the top ten best guns of all time. It still pains me to think that the US military carries 9mm Beretta's over these.

I purchased a Walther P22 and was disappointed in the effort that it took to get a brand new pistol to work at an acceptable level. Walther worked with me. However, shame on them for allowing the P22 to bear there name.

Business owners must never burn the people who are first to buy stuff.

The 1911 is a big gun, although, I imagine they have scaled it down. Still, that slide looks quite massive for such a small round to push back. I believe [pure speculation] that there could be cycling issues here: stove pipes, failure to eject, failure to lock back,...

I am not sure why Walther would go to the trouble of licensing this from Colt. Surely, the patent is up by now. Doesn't everyone and their brother make a 1911 clone?

Are you looking to collect or shoot? If you are looking for a collector's piece then I might suggest it. Otherwise get a tried and true 22lr.

Also, most of the big boy 45APC's have kits that make them 22LR. Will this 22 accept a 45 slide?

My advice: get a 45 frame that has the 22LR kit. Later if you are allowed the 45, all you will have to do is slide the new slide on.

Slan

Voodoomelon

Hmm.
Thanks for the post. It is full sized as far as i've read but its an aluminium slide so recoil shouldn't be too much of an issue.
I'd be looking to shoot, a few others are suggesting GSG 1911s in Youtube comments over the Walthers but I don't like the look of them. But they're also Youtube comments...

Not too sure if the slides are interchangeable, the Walthers are supposed to have over 80% part commonality with the .45 models, the GSGs don't.

I'd also be interested to see Irish pricing.

What problems did you have with the P22 out of the box?

Grizzly 45

I'd pass that one by too.As it is a 1st Gen product there will be bugs no doubt,and Walther hasnt been actually very straight about their P22.As they have URMAREX in their company who makes blank firers and airsoft.There is a good chance that this could be a beefed up blankfiring POS converted to fire .22lr.
Only reason there is liscense issues is because Walther is using the COLT trademark on the slide.Yes the patent is long gone and offically on the 26th of March the Model 1911A1 will be in the US armed forces one hunderd years.
Yes,yes,it was replaced offically by the M9 .But seeing that it is still used by SF units and as personal choice sidearms by all and sundry.It is still in service,and will proably make a comeback too.
Would go with FIMSA advive ,get a 1911 frame with a .22lr kit on it.There are plenty of conversion kits that actually WORK and if the law ever changes here ,you are halfway to having a .45 ACP. Shopping around you could proably find a gunsmith that would build you a 22lr 1911 that works for the price of one of those yokes.

FISMA

Voodoo,
Hopefully, Walther has learned from the P22 issues and this will be problem free.

Whenever I am going to buy a new gun I always google the model name and terms like "sucks" or "$hit." Without the dollar sign - using the "s."

If you get a lot of hits, stay away.

The P22 was plagued with feed issues. I could never get a ten mag to feed and lock back. I was lucky to get 2 or 3 shots off before there was a stove pipe or failure to feed.

I wouldn't mind so much if I was using the cheap stuff - you get what you pay for. However, I fed the P22 the best ammo and she still hiccuped regularly.

I sent it back to Walther, which was no big deal when I was in the States. I just dropped it off at the RFD and they did all of the work. All in all, I think I sent it back twice and on the third time they sent me a new one with new magazines.

Strangely enough, I still like the P22. I still shoot it a lot. She is fine for plinking, however, I would not trust it with my life.

Does anyone, anywhere have these? I do not see them around.

Voodoomelon

Thanks for the info, maybe i'll steer clear of it for now until there are more established reviews/reports of it.

xflyer

Well considering Colt ironed out all the problems with the original, could Walther make that big a mess of it?

On as aside, I note Walther sell .22LR M16 lookalikes. Would you even get a licence for one of those here, given the the 'assault rifle' look. I do know they used to. A friend years ago had one.

rowa

xflyer wrote: »

Well considering Colt ironed out all the problems with the original, could Walther make that big a mess of it?

On as aside, I note Walther sell .22LR M16 lookalikes. Would you even get a licence for one of those here, given the the 'assault rifle' look. I do know they used to. A friend years ago had one.

I didn't know the original had any problems , the only changes made to the 1911 before going into production was the addition of the grip safety and that was at the insistence of the us army for their Calvary units. the test for the army was non-stop firing of 5,000 rounds and they passed first time.
I would look into the licence before putting money down for one of these , I know some supers/chief supers won't licence the cz cadet as it is a "police and military" model.

FISMA

The Colt 1911 is one, if not the best, semi/automatic throughout the history of guns. It was designed to shoot 45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) and did so beautifully.

The firearm that was having problems was the Walther P22.

The question is whether Walther's Version of the Colt 1911 will have the same problems with indigestion.

The other question is whether you want to be the first to find out!

Again, the Colt 1911 was as perfect as an auto could be. 100 years later and they are still going strong.

xflyer wrote: »

Well considering Colt ironed out all the problems with the original, could Walther make that big a mess of it?

The problem is the blowback power of the 22LR versus the 45ACP. Surely, the engineers have checked their equations and done the math that says the slide will cycle. Whether the slide cycles in reality and consistently is yet to be determined.

rowa wrote: »

I didn't know the original had any problems

Neither do I - know of any problems with the Colt 1911 45. The P22 is another topic.

Voodoomelon

Licencing shouldnt be a problem, I live in Louth and have it under good authority from the same Garda that licencing of any .22 pistol in this district goes straight through no problem, but only because the superindendant is such a hard ass on re-issuing of all centrefire chambered pistols. He's pissed so many people off that any rimfire pistol licence is rubber stamped with little problem.

I actually know another chap who has a semi-automatic .223 AR-15 and it was licenced no problem. Obviously it doesn't go down on the licence as an AR-15 but its down as whatever manufacturer it is plus .22 and it goes through just fine.

gunhappy_ie

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I actually know another chap who has a semi-automatic .223 AR-15 and it was licenced no problem. Obviously it doesn't go down on the licence as an AR-15 but its down as whatever manufacturer it is plus .22 and it goes through just fine.

Sorry to be a fun spounge...
I hope that was a typo, if not a false statement was made and the licence is invalid.

Ive known several people to have brimmer/walther .22 AR clones. It was and should be as easy to licence as a ruger 10/22

gunhappy_ie

FISMA wrote: »

I would pass on this one, although, I have not seen this 1911 or heard anything bad about it.

The Colt 1911 is, in my opinion, one of the top ten best guns of all time. It still pains me to think that the US military carries 9mm Beretta's over these.

I purchased a Walther P22 and was disappointed in the effort that it took to get a brand new pistol to work at an acceptable level. Walther worked with me. However, shame on them for allowing the P22 to bear there name.

Business owners must never burn the people who are first to buy stuff.

The 1911 is a big gun, although, I imagine they have scaled it down. Still, that slide looks quite massive for such a small round to push back. I believe [pure speculation] that there could be cycling issues here: stove pipes, failure to eject, failure to lock back,...

I am not sure why Walther would go to the trouble of licensing this from Colt. Surely, the patent is up by now. Doesn't everyone and their brother make a 1911 clone?

Are you looking to collect or shoot? If you are looking for a collector's piece then I might suggest it. Otherwise get a tried and true 22lr.

Also, most of the big boy 45APC's have kits that make them 22LR. Will this 22 accept a 45 slide?

My advice: get a 45 frame that has the 22LR kit. Later if you are allowed the 45, all you will have to do is slide the new slide on.

Slan

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I'd pass that one by too.As it is a 1st Gen product there will be bugs no doubt,and Walther hasnt been actually very straight about their P22.As they have URMAREX in their company who makes blank firers and airsoft.There is a good chance that this could be a beefed up blankfiring POS converted to fire .22lr.
Only reason there is liscense issues is because Walther is using the COLT trademark on the slide.Yes the patent is long gone and offically on the 26th of March the Model 1911A1 will be in the US armed forces one hunderd years.
Yes,yes,it was replaced offically by the M9 .But seeing that it is still used by SF units and as personal choice sidearms by all and sundry.It is still in service,and will proably make a comeback too.
Would go with FIMSA advive ,get a 1911 frame with a .22lr kit on it.There are plenty of conversion kits that actually WORK and if the law ever changes here ,you are halfway to having a .45 ACP. Shopping around you could proably find a gunsmith that would build you a 22lr 1911 that works for the price of one of those yokes.

That is a very costly way to get a pistol and the illusion that pistol licencing is going to change is heart warming.

Voodoomelon

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Sorry to be a fun spounge...
I hope that was a typo, if not a false statement was made and the licence is invalid.

Ive known several people to have brimmer/walther .22 AR clones. It was and should be as easy to licence as a ruger 10/22

Apologies, it is licensed as a .22 as it is a .22 but it was built with a .22 conversion kit. Insert a ..223 bolt assembly and its a .223, both rounds traverse the same barrel no problem.

gunhappy_ie

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Apologies, it is licensed as a .22 as it is a .22 but it was built with a .22 conversion kit. Insert a ..223 bolt assembly and its a .223, both rounds traverse the same barrel no problem.

Theres also a barrel insert/adaptor that needs to be removed :P. Possibly since it was built as a .22 semi auto (unless he built the upper himself) it wont have a gas tube either and if it was built in the Uk it may not even have a cut in the upper for the tube.

Grizzly 45

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

That is a very costly way to get a pistol and the illusion that pistol licencing is going to change is heart warming.

Meh! Gunparts catolouge,or Gunbroker.com.Surplus 1911 frame in good nick 100 usd.[excluding here varibles as export liscenses,liscense fees for this that,and the other].45 internals 80 dollars,ceiner .22lr,ace kit upper .22lr appx 450 usd[most expensive].Competant gunsmith[Hint,hint;)] to put it alltogether over here that it works properly 200 euros.
Say,650 euros for a customised .22lr pistol that actually WORKS,made from steel rather than POS potmetal construction that now comes from a company that is becoming known for .22lr jamm a matics rather than quality workmanship that it was once known for,because it is letting the TOY dept supply some bits.Think I'd rather the expensive route will be less costly and more fun shooting in the end.
Rather have a .22lr Springfield Armoury 1911 that works with the possibility of law changing somtime than having to buy it in the jacked up price rush common over here, or having to buy a new 45 as Herr Walther doesnt allow any conversion to a 1911 45 ACP,because of product saftey issues,or just total design incompatibility.
The Walther 1911 is a plinker full stop,aimed at the fun market.Or places like here..After all in Germany if you bought and liscensed a full blown 1911,it is quite acceptable to have the conversion kit for it in 22lr,9mm and whatever else you fancy.So why would you do this bass ackwards in buying a 22.lr to convert to 45?
if the law does change.Half a loaf and all that.We can live in hope.:)

gunhappy_ie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Meh! Gunparts catolouge,or Gunbroker.com.Surplus 1911 frame in good nick 100 usd.[excluding here varibles as export liscenses,liscense fees for this that,and the other].45 internals 80 dollars,ceiner .22lr,ace kit upper .22lr appx 450 usd[most expensive].Competant gunsmith[Hint,hint;)] to put it alltogether over here that it works properly 200 euros.
Say,650 euros for a customised .22lr pistol that actually WORKS,made from steel rather than POS potmetal construction that now comes from a company that is becoming known for .22lr jamm a matics rather than quality workmanship that it was once known for,because it is letting the TOY dept supply some bits.Think I'd rather the expensive route will be less costly and more fun shooting in the end.
Rather have a .22lr Springfield Armoury 1911 that works with the possibility of law changing somtime than having to buy it in the jacked up price rush common over here, or having to buy a new 45 as Herr Walther doesnt allow any conversion to a 1911 45 ACP,because of product saftey issues,or just total design incompatibility.
The Walther 1911 is a plinker full stop,aimed at the fun market.Or places like here..After all in Germany if you bought and liscensed a full blown 1911,it is quite acceptable to have the conversion kit for it in 22lr,9mm and whatever else you fancy.So why would you do this bass ackwards in buying a 22.lr to convert to 45?
if the law does change.Half a loaf and all that.We can live in hope.:)

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Gunparts catolouge,or Gunbroker.com

So youll either have to have a friend willing to buy and do the paperwork for you or youll have to pay a one of the few companies who export/import internationally to do it.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Surplus 1911 frame in good nick 100 usd

Pray the frame isnt warped or the rails arent out of spec (which a surplus miltary frame will be out of spec)

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Competant gunsmith[Hint,hint;)]

Thanks for the vote of confidance but Ive yet to meet a gundealer who is interested in letting anyone do this.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Say,650 euros for a customised .22lr pistol

Thats the part that your dreaming about.... theres not a hope of getting a Custom pistol for that money if the frame needs tweeking...... tools alone will cost more than the gun (tools to do the job right and not have the slide bounce up/down as it goes back/forward on the rails

Even within europe the cheapest ive seen a surplus government model
1911 was €350. Add postage, (paperwork is free), cost of a .22 slide (lets be optimistic and say €200) your now at the €580 mark minimum without refinishing the crappy surplus frame and fitting the slide.

To look at it another way.... last year I was talking to a "Sig Dealer" flicking through the catalogue I stopped on the Mosquito pages covering the different models (this in not a que to start rantiing about the guns).

This dealer told me that they are rubbish (which there not there tempermental and ammo sensitive) and that I should get a pistol that he reccomended....... Grizzly... you were there .... he recomended a €1900 P226 with a .22 conversion kit on it.

Now, Im an eternal optimist and do wish pistol licencing will change however with our current economic climate I dont think that it will be a decision that will be looked at any time soon.

Should the law change anyone with that Sig or with a pistol using a .22 slide that can take a fullbore slide will fork out even more money (if they want)... which is fine if they are willing to pay €€€€€ but this isnt germany or the US. Id love a .22 conversion kit got my pistol and rifle but the paper trail along with the bull that is involved puts alot of people (me included) off.


Voodoomelon,

If your interested in the pistol give John Kavanagh @ fingal sports a ring. If it can be got hell get it and not charge an arm or leg to import it.

Take the gun for what it is... a cheap pinker/semi target pistol that there may be problems to work out.

IMO tweeking them is the fun part anyway.

Voodoomelon

Thanks for that. I'm not the kind of annoying customer that sends something back at the first hiccup, ill get it to work no matter what. I agree, its part of the fun/frustration/hair tearing process.

firefly08

The problem is the blowback power of the 22LR versus the 45ACP. Surely, the engineers have checked their equations and done the math that says the slide will cycle. Whether the slide cycles in reality and consistently is yet to be determined.

Believe it or not, the .22 has more than enough power to cycle a .45! I remember reading in Hatcher's Notebook how they modified the Browning M2 .50BMG to cycle reliably with .22lr rounds (for anti-aircraft training). This was many years ago when there would not have been anything like the selection of .22 brands available today.

Most .22 pistols are blowback designs and they're tricky because the recoil weight has to be balanced so that it's just heavy enough to keep the action closed for the right length of time, but light enough to be pushed back by weaker rounds.

Because large centerfire calibre guns usually have locking breaches of some kind, the bolts/slides don't have to be proportionally as heavy as their blowback counterparts (it's not the weight that keeps them closed during firing). The slide on my .45 1911 is maybe a little heavier than the one on my .22, but not my much.

Grizzly 45

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

So youll either have to have a friend willing to buy and do the paperwork for you or youll have to pay a one of the few companies who export/import internationally to do it.



Pray the frame isnt warped or the rails arent out of spec (which a surplus miltary frame will be out of spec)

OR simply buy an 80% finished 1911 reciver,and finish it out over here.
Those CAN be exported from the US with no paperwork or FFL,as it is simply a bit of metal with some holes cut in it.You need to have a milling machine and be able to cut the slide rails for which there is a jig to do the job.Also,I'm just using a surplus mil frame as an example. Can be sure there arent many left anyway now.Maybe the DCM might have,but I doubt it.Point is there are still plenty about over there,and if you request a hand pick for a few dollars more,specifying the rails have to be in good nick,I'm sure with an explanation of the problems of intl shipping of firearms,you will get one in pretty good shape.
Egun has them betimes and for brand new finished frames in steel,you are looking at around 200/300 euros.Most expensive I saw was 450 for a hi cap 1911 frame.:pac:

Thanks for the vote of confidance but Ive yet to meet a gundealer who is interested in letting anyone do this.

Indeed,mores the pity..And you said it nicely they are dealers not smiths.
So they shouldnt be allowed in the workshop at all,as a gunsmith is a total different trade.

Thats the part that your dreaming about.... theres not a hope of getting a Custom pistol for that money if the frame needs tweeking...... tools alone will cost more than the gun (tools to do the job right and not have the slide bounce up/down as it goes back/forward on the rails


Even within europe the cheapest ive seen a surplus government model
1911 was €350. Add postage, (paperwork is free), cost of a .22 slide (lets be optimistic and say €200) your now at the €580 mark minimum without refinishing the crappy surplus frame and fitting the slide.

Well, our German friends have and are building these now for mini IPSC class,and their prices are certainly not over 1k,and thats for custom work of putting a slide on a frame, and getting it to run properly too.
most were coming in around the 700 euro mark.Somhow I dont think the Walt1911 will be much cheaper.

To look at it another way.... last year I was talking to a "Sig Dealer" flicking through the catalogue I stopped on the Mosquito pages covering the different models (this in not a que to start rantiing about the guns).

This dealer told me that they are rubbish (which there not there tempermental and ammo sensitive) and that I should get a pistol that he reccomended....... Grizzly... you were there .... he recomended a €1900 P226 with a .22 conversion kit on it.

Was I with you??? Either im getting doddery in me old age,but I cant remember that at all.Maybe you told me about it??

Now, Im an eternal optimist and do wish pistol licencing will change however with our current economic climate I dont think that it will be a decision that will be looked at any time soon.

Didnt and wouldnt expect it to,after all we are just getting round to sort out the confiscated stuff lying around the Army barracks store rooms.Near on 40 years later...:(:mad:

Should the law change anyone with that Sig or with a pistol using a .22 slide that can take a fullbore slide will fork out even more money (if they want)... which is fine if they are willing to pay €€€€€ but this isnt germany or the US. Id love a .22 conversion kit got my pistol and rifle but the paper trail along with the bull that is involved puts alot of people (me included) off.

Dont I know it isnt either countries,it was just an example of wher e competant and logical firearms legislation exist and work[most of the time].
All it is here is a point that if I personally had the choice,I'd rather stick a conversion kit on a gun that I already have,that is now tried& true technology,rather than invest about the same money on somthing new,untested,1st gen and coming now from a company that is ruining its reputation by allowing its trademark to be put on potmetal junk,made by one of its subsidaries.Which proably WILL cost in maintence/repair downtime ,etc as much as a quality working conversion kit.

gunhappy_ie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

OR simply buy an 80% finished 1911 reciver,and finish it out over here.
Those CAN be exported from the US with no paperwork or FFL,as it is simply a bit of metal with some holes cut in it.

Hahaha thats what I like about you, you always know an option C.

Indeed,mores the pity..And you said it nicely they are dealers not smiths.
So they shouldnt be allowed in the workshop at all,as a gunsmith is a total different trade.

This is the problem with 80% frames, it would need a RFD to call the DOJ and sort out ie. create its serial number and put in on the pulse system.

Ive already been in contact to the DOJ about this however... still saving for a RFD.




Was I with you??? Either im getting doddery in me old age,but I cant remember that at all.Maybe you told me about it??

Yep myself yourself and a public house owner with a Sig for a pistol comp.. but its obviously the old age :P :P


Didnt and wouldnt expect it to,after all we are just getting round to sort out the confiscated stuff lying around the Army barracks store rooms.Near on 40 years later...:(:mad:


QUOTE]

Voodoomelon

To be honest I might bite the bullet and just order one and see how I get on, be the guinea pig for everyone else.

I might be moving house soon so will wait until I have the new address before going any further.

Grizzly 45

Hahaha thats what I like about you, you always know an option C.


[Takes a bow:D]

This is the problem with 80% frames, it would need a RFD to call the DOJ and sort out ie. create its serial number and put in on the pulse system.

Ive already been in contact to the DOJ about this however... still saving for a RFD.

Figured you would have been already having a chat about it.;)
But it is a possiblity,once the concept is explained many times to them without too many big words !:rolleyes:

Yep myself yourself and a public house owner with a Sig for a pistol comp.. but its obviously the old age :P :P

FACT!!!:o:o Now who are you??And why am I typing this????:eek::D




[/QUOTE]

Grizzly 45

Voodoomelon wrote: »

To be honest I might bite the bullet and just order one and see how I get on, be the guinea pig for everyone else.

I might be moving house soon so will wait until I have the new address before going any further.

Hail Voodomelon.For those who are about to buy!!..We salute you!!:D

Voodoomelon

In all seriousness though, these peashooters are all we can get pistol-wise in this country, if rimfire pistols become more and more widespread, which I believe they will, someones gonna have to take the plunge first on each one.

Will post further down the line with any updates.

bunny shooter

All fine and dandy ordering it/others but what if you/someone else gets a Super who refuses to grant anything not on the "list" and they seem to exist.

Before someone says it, I know the list is not exaustive and is only a guideline

FISMA

Voodoomelon wrote: »

To be honest I might bite the bullet and just order one and see how I get on, be the guinea pig for everyone else.

I might be moving house soon so will wait until I have the new address before going any further.

Do it Voodoo - fortune favors the brave.

This one cannot be worse than the P22's. I still have my P22 and have no intentions of selling it so - drive on...

I imagine that the Colt Engineers have given the design the once over. I would think that they have a vested interest in ensuring that the Colt name doesn't go on a piece of junk.

My gut tells me that this one is not going to be problematic.

Grizzly 45

TBH Colt's engineers proably dont even know about this .There would be no reason for them to do so,and they would proably arm themselves with their fine products and go to deal with the idiots who allowed this to happen in the boardroom!

First off;the design of the model 1911 is now 100 years old so there are no exclusive patent rights to it anymore and proably havent been for the last 60 years. Colt is a trademark name,so if somone wants to buy it to stick on their product,they can do so after paying Colt a small fortune.
It is a boardroom decision .EG the famous Colt Ace.22lr pistol was NEVER made by Colt!! It was a certain "carbine" Williams who bought the Colt name for about 30k worth of the .22lr pistol runs.It didnt bother Colt,as "Carbine" was trying to sell this to the US military as a training aid for the officer corps,it was their logo,and he was saving them a load of R&D,and if it had been sucessful Colt would have bought the Carbine patent and made it themselves.Needless to say it wasnt a great seller,and it didnt really fly.
Just about every gun company is doing this now.Allowing their names to be used on airsoft toys and .22lr stuff. Its money pure&simple.
Were this not the case I doubt FN,HK,Colt ,Walther would care their names to be seen on blank firers or airsoft stuff.
The name usage brings a fair whack of money,and so long as it is in the "toy dept"[IE blank,airsoft,and .22lr unfortunatly:(..Who really cares??]

rowa

Why take a chance on one of these copies when there are great pistols out there , ruger mk2/3 , smith and wesson 617 , browning buckmarks etc , all well made real pistols made from steel not crappy zinc pot metal .

Grizzly 45

IF,I were going a dedicated .22lr I think one of these would be in order .

http://www.ruger.com/products/2245/index.html

Especially the threaded version..Great for hanging "things" off it.:D

Voodoomelon

No doubt they are spectacular pieces of engineering, but they look god awful. The only reason I want the Colt is because its the best reproduction of a 1911 to date. I don't want a .22 pistol, i want a 1911. If if getting it in .22 is the only option, then so be it.

FISMA

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

So youll either have to have a friend willing to buy and do the paperwork for you or youll have to pay a one of the few companies who export/import internationally to do it.

Have you sorted out what it would take to have someone "over here" buy and send it home? If so, please advise.

You seem to be in a tough position. Even if you got the gun out to Eire and into the hands of the RFD, there's no guarantee that you'll be approved. Correct?

So what would happen, theoretically, if you bought off of gunBroker, exported via an American FFL, to an Irish RFD, and then were denied? Assuming this is the legal route. Would you at least be able to sell it via the RFD?

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

Pray the frame isnt warped or the rails arent out of spec (which a surplus miltary frame will be out of spec)

Strange enough, I have never, ever, ever, had any kind of problem with the war time guns I have owned. The only firearms I have ever had problems were new ones built after decades of peace. It is counter-intuitive, however, I think that during a time of war, when it really counts, and you know your lives are on the line, the factories build a better gun.

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

This dealer told me that they are rubbish (which there not there tempermental and ammo sensitive) and that I should get a pistol that he reccomended....... Grizzly... you were there .... he recomended a €1900 P226 with a .22 conversion kit on it.

You can get Mossies in the states for $300 and they are priced right at that. I would not call them rubbish, they are probably a great plinker. In a time when ammo is so expensive and they say its going up May 1st in the states, the Mosquito would be a welcome addition.

But not for the price you are going to pay for it in Ireland. Also, a target pistol it is not.

The most bang for your buck is the Ruger MK series or the Buckmark. Never heard bad things about them and they have been around for a while.

There was a deal not too long ago from either Sig or Glock whereby if you purchased a new firearm, you got a coupon for money off of a 22LR kit. I forget the details, however, the people I know were telling me it was like a two for one deal. Buy one gun and get two calibers. If it is something of interest, let me know and I'll give them a ring.