Should we be making it harder to remain on the social welfare gravy train

danbohan

padma wrote: »

I see your point, though you have to admit people who work also take their money out of the country on holidays. As for going on a bender, sure the tax man gets that anyway. The only thing I can see really is cash is a problem for everyone.

My friend for example lost his job, gets 188 euro a week, 4 euro during winter for heating, and 15 euro a month for mortgage relief. He has no money. He is on the dole. He's credit card is maxed. He has a loan out he can't repay. He is constantly in and out of the bank looking for an extension on a moratorium.

Fact is he doesn't get his lighting and heating paid for, he doesn't get his mortgage paid for. He is out of work a year now and the prospects of a job haven't appeared. Minimum wage jobs aren't there anymore. He would take on a minimum wage job but hasn't had any luck probably because he is overskilled.

What I'm saying is you aren't the only one in a bad situation and the welfare isn't the gravy train that your making it out to be for a large proportion of the recipients on it.

what i never understand is why somebody like your friend obviously well educated and qualified tolerates a set of circumstances that involves him/her living like this . we are a small island with maybe 20% unemployment and smaller in population than many European citys . dont be wasting your life hanging around to trying survive ,go somewhere and make something , maybe financially you wont be much better off, but the climate might be better and your broadening your experiences

HellFireClub

The OP conveniently chooses to forget that the majority of people who are on social welfare, have actually worked, they have paid PRSI, the social protection payments that they receive, they have paid for that protection through PRSI payments before they lost their job!

I can't get over the neck of someone who comes on here saying, "WE shouldn't be paying for this and WE shouldn't be paying for that, give them all free cheese and butter vouchers"... I'm also one of those in the WE group, I paid my PAYE and PRSI for years and years...

I was recently on the dole, because I had no luck with getting a job I started up my own business. Every state department and agency that was mandated to support someone like myself, opposed every effort I made.

If you want to start looking at where the waste is, start looking at the politically appointed goons and stoogies in state agencies like the County Enterrprise Boards, FAS, the Dept. of Social Protection, etc, getting paid a grand a week to push and shunt endless reams of paper around an office while actually opposing the people that they are meant to be supporting.

The person who started this thread reckons we should push more goons and stoogies into the dole office and create more paperwork and formfilling "for the file", more beaurocracy for having a suit dry cleaned or a bus ticket refunded, the goons down in the dole office would love the likes of you with your, "for the file" attitude. I can only assume that you are a public sector worker yourself and you have the standard obsession with filling out forms and all forms of beaurocracy. How does such an action cut the cost of running the country???

The vast majority of people on the dole want to work, but they can't because there are no jobs in this country. There's a heavy culture of "having to know someone" in order to get through 3 interviews in this country, you're lucky if you get a reply to your application...

fliball123

HellFireClub wrote: »

The OP conveniently chooses to forget that the majority of people who are on social welfare, have actually worked, they have paid PRSI, the social protection payments that they receive, they have paid for that protection through PRSI payments before they lost their job!

I can't get over the neck of someone who comes on here saying, "WE shouldn't be paying for this and WE shouldn't be paying for that, give them all free cheese and butter vouchers"... I'm also one of those in the WE group, I paid my PAYE and PRSI for years and years...

I was recently on the dole, because I had no luck with getting a job I started up my own business. Every state department and agency that was mandated to support someone like myself, opposed every effort I made.

If you want to start looking at where the waste is, start looking at the politically appointed goons and stoogies in state agencies like the County Enterrprise Boards, FAS, the Dept. of Social Protection, etc, getting paid a grand a week to push and shunt endless reams of paper around an office while actually opposing the people that they are meant to be supporting.

The person who started this thread reckons we should push more goons and stoogies into the dole office and create more paperwork and formfilling "for the file", more beaurocracy for having a suit dry cleaned or a bus ticket refunded, the goons down in the dole office would love the likes of you with your, "for the file" attitude. I can only assume that you are a public sector worker yourself and you have the standard obsession with filling out forms and all forms of beaurocracy. How does such an action cut the cost of running the country???

The vast majority of people on the dole want to work, but they can't because there are no jobs in this country. There's a heavy culture of "having to know someone" in order to get through 3 interviews in this country, you're lucky if you get a reply to your application...

i didnt conveniently leave that out. I know that people on the dole have worked. As one other poster pointed out. We should mirror the German style. something like someone gets 80% of thier wage up to 6 months and then halved every 6 months...

I am not even looking for a massive cut. What I am looking for is a system that cuts out people on the doles spending on luxuries..As this is a joke..Why should my tax money pay for anyone to go on holiday???

Long term on the dole should be just told to fcuk off ...anyone there for 5 years or more just do not want to work...

The whole we shouldnt be paying should be changed to we can no longer afford to pay.

As I stated in the OP I dont want to get anyones back up but when 2/3s of our income is spent on this radical changes need to be made..Ensuring the money stays in the country would be paramount and people not talking jobs because they are better off on the dole should also be cut out

pocketvenus

HellFireClub wrote: »

The OP conveniently chooses to forget that the majority of people who are on social welfare, have actually worked, they have paid PRSI, the social protection payments that they receive, they have paid for that protection through PRSI payments before they lost their job!

I can't get over the neck of someone who comes on here saying, "WE shouldn't be paying for this and WE shouldn't be paying for that, give them all free cheese and butter vouchers"... I'm also one of those in the WE group, I paid my PAYE and PRSI for years and years...

I was recently on the dole, because I had no luck with getting a job I started up my own business. Every state department and agency that was mandated to support someone like myself, opposed every effort I made.

If you want to start looking at where the waste is, start looking at the politically appointed goons and stoogies in state agencies like the County Enterrprise Boards, FAS, the Dept. of Social Protection, etc, getting paid a grand a week to push and shunt endless reams of paper around an office while actually opposing the people that they are meant to be supporting.

The person who started this thread reckons we should push more goons and stoogies into the dole office and create more paperwork and formfilling "for the file", more beaurocracy for having a suit dry cleaned or a bus ticket refunded, the goons down in the dole office would love the likes of you with your, "for the file" attitude. I can only assume that you are a public sector worker yourself and you have the standard obsession with filling out forms and all forms of beaurocracy. How does such an action cut the cost of running the country???

The vast majority of people on the dole want to work, but they can't because there are no jobs in this country. There's a heavy culture of "having to know someone" in order to get through 3 interviews in this country, you're lucky if you get a reply to your application...

Most of these posts are started by people who either are working in the PS or are high up in the private sector who have not got a clue what it is like to live in the real world. Their attitude is that all people on the dole are scum and something to be scraped off the end of their shoe.

Simple fact is in this country the Gov and welfare system benefits those who never worked a day in their life and have no intention to and this will never change. All the talk of tacing fraud is just talk and an excuse to ensure when the cut benefits they know the working public and PS will support it. Fact is those who can screw the dole always will and are left to do so and this will never change as they know all the loop holes, have all the do gooders out supporting them. Nobody is fighting or concerned about the workers who lost their jobs about 2 years ago and who are asking for nothing but the bascis are embarrased to even claim these and are using savings to survive and try not be a burden on the State. What do they get for this, abuse, people looking down their noses at them etc.

As above poster said most jobs now are "who you know" and alot of the ones advertised are gone and are put in paper as by law you have to do so. I know this for a fact as there was a job recently adversited where I live, so I applied for it has 2 interviews and did not get it. Two days later I met a girl I knew in college and we got taking about work etc anyway I asked her where she was working and she told me she had that job and was working in the job while interviews for it was going on. So there you go.

HellFireClub

fliball123 wrote: »

i didnt conveniently leave that out. I know that people on the dole have worked. As one other poster pointed out. We should mirror the German style. something like someone gets 80% of thier wage up to 6 months and then halved every 6 months...

I am not even looking for a massive cut. What I am looking for is a system that cuts out people on the doles spending on luxuries..As this is a joke..Why should my tax money pay for anyone to go on holiday???

Long term on the dole should be just told to fcuk off ...anyone there for 5 years or more just do not want to work...

The whole we shouldnt be paying should be changed to we can no longer afford to pay.

As I stated in the OP I dont want to get anyones back up but when 2/3s of our income is spent on this radical changes need to be made..Ensuring the money stays in the country would be paramount and people not talking jobs because they are better off on the dole should also be cut out

I can tell you, as someone who was on the dole until recently and knows what the f*ck they are talking about, that when you're income is 188 Euro a week, you can't afford any luxuries, you can barely survive. You are talking out of your arse on this subject. Your whole contribution is deeply deeply offensive to someone from my own backround who has been there and done that.

Idbatterim

I think it should be cut incrementally over time, maybe 10% every 6 months, up to a maximum of 4 cuts or 40%. Leaving it at 60% of normal standard rate. What do I propose doing with the saving? paying off national debt, reducing PAYE (atleast at top rate) AND putting the money into job creation schemes, money into community facilities and better school facilities and smaller class sizes. The poverty trap is in no ones interest. Its just very difficult at the moment as its not like boom time, where you could say there is no reason for anyone to be on dole for an extended period, so my proposal to reduce it based on how long your on it, may not be ideal at the moment.

HellFireClub

fliball123 wrote: »

i didnt conveniently leave that out. I know that people on the dole have worked. As one other poster pointed out. We should mirror the German style. something like someone gets 80% of thier wage up to 6 months and then halved every 6 months...

I am not even looking for a massive cut. What I am looking for is a system that cuts out people on the doles spending on luxuries..As this is a joke..Why should my tax money pay for anyone to go on holiday???

Long term on the dole should be just told to fcuk off ...anyone there for 5 years or more just do not want to work...

The whole we shouldnt be paying should be changed to we can no longer afford to pay.

As I stated in the OP I dont want to get anyones back up but when 2/3s of our income is spent on this radical changes need to be made..Ensuring the money stays in the country would be paramount and people not talking jobs because they are better off on the dole should also be cut out

And it's worthy of mention that you're obviously not too productive or efficient yourself as an employee when you're on here talking politics at this hour of the day.

tfitzgerald

HellFireClub wrote: »

I can tell you, as someone who was on the dole until recently and knows what the f*ck they are talking about, that when you're income is 188 Euro a week, you can't afford any luxuries, you can barely survive. You are talking out of your arse on this subject. Your whole contribution is deeply deeply offensive to someone from my own backround who has been there and done that.

I agree with this the dole is no gravy train 180€ is not going to take you far when you still have all bills to pay, a holiday anywhere is a fantasy out of my reach

Dannyboy83

Stamps or local currency, not Euro - can't take money outside country - help to cut down on fraud.

Shouldn't be able to purchase alcohol with SW money.

tfitzgerald

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Stamps or local currency, not Euro - can't take money outside country - help to cut down on fraud.

Shouldn't be able to purchase alcohol with SW money.

FFS I hope you are never on welfare while you are on about it why don't we introduce a chaingangs everyone on the dole ( those who
are breaking there arse trying to get jobs that don't exist) should meet up every Monday morning to see how we can make the people lucky enough to have a job have an easier time of it maybe cutting lawns ect

Dannyboy83

tfitzgerald wrote: »

FFS I hope you are never on welfare

I never have been and I never would be.
If I couldn't get a job, I'd emigrate.

while you are on about it why don't we introduce a chaingangs everyone on the dole ( those who are breaking there arse trying to get jobs that don't exist) should meet up every Monday morning to see how we can make the people lucky enough to have a job have an easier time of it maybe cutting lawns ect

I'm working - I don't spend any money on alcohol.
You don't need alcohol to survive. Nobody does.
Far too much dole money is wasted on alcohol.

A lot of young people would just emigrate if their dole money couldn't buy them drink. There was a program on RTE about it last year.

Idbatterim

Id say the amount spent on alcohol from dole money would be jaw dropping! I know several people on it and they admit to blowing almost all of it on alcohol!

Boskowski

We can debate all day about whatever form of support is demeaning and whatever standard of life should be provided or not.

The fact of the matter is that between unemployment benefits, welfare, OAPs, child allowances, rent allowances, single parent allowances and whatever else is out there we blow two thirds of the states fincial intake.

It isn't healthy, it's not sustainable and it has us on the brink of ruins together with the other problems we have. It simply cannot continue.

I don't want to list the umpteenth time what exactly has to be done but generally speaking we need to clamp down on abuse and fraud, we need to lower the rates - in some areas more in some areas less in some areas significantly, but lower them all the same - and we need to means test them efficiently. And also we need to stop using welfare as a political instrument e.g. flooring the rent market by dishing out €800 on rent allowance.

We have a ton of other problems, too, but welfare is one of them and its a big one.

And there is no point in waving your fingers saying 'have a go at the other guys first'.
It needs to be tackled, all of it. Otherwise we're fvcked. Don't people see that? If we don't do anything about it there is just no miracle going to happen for us. The country is not going to win the lottery or find pots of gold or anything like that. There won't be a miraculous turnaround back to another property boom either. We are going to be fvcked.
The EU will say 'look you failed your 4 year plan miserably, we can't lend you anymore, you gonna have to get back to bond markets (or whatever)', we will pay 15% there, we eventually bne unable to borrow anything and then we will be bankrupt and there will be no money left to be paid to anyone.

There is no point in being stubborn and somehow things will go on. They won't.

RichardAnd

Whilst the op's suggestion have merit I find myself disagreeing with him on a matter of principle. Though there are many wasters on the dole, there are many who simply have had the misfortune of loosing their jobs. I do agree that welfare rates are too high but I do not think that soup kitchens and hand outs are the way to go about bringing spending into line.

If I were in charge, the dole would be reduced to a more realistic amount but I would want it to remain as a cash payment and there are several advantages of this system.

The first is that it's simple, it's all very well to say "give the unemployed vouchers for X", "give them credit for Y" but the problem here is what happens when they need A, B or C. Consider this, Paddy is getting stamps for food and other basic needs but suddenly finds himself in need of a certain medicine but has no money to buy it so how does he get it? What if he needs (and I stress needs) something else, are we supposed to have a voucher for every item imaginable? Even with a credit card system, there is still the issue of setting the system up, trusting merchants to honour it and in Ireland, nothing like that will be smooth.

Next, we have another big issue of unemployment; dignity. There is nothing so demeaning to someone who has simply been unfortunate as to make them stand in line for a hand out. Making people queue for dole is simply a modern version of depression era soup kitchens and in a modern age, unnecessary. Unemployment payments could be make to a person's bank account in private so they could be spared the shame of dole queues and uncouth questions from welfare officers. Giving out a dole credit card or food stamps means a person's business of being unemployed can not be kept private and I believe that is wrong.

In short, yes we spend too much on welfare and yes this has to change but we must also remember that many on welfare are just unlucky and in my opinion, they at least deserve to be treated with respect. I'm not known for making very socialistic posts to this is a rare moment for me but as we attempt to tighten our belts, I don't think we should forget our humanity.

Boskowski

+1

Totally agree.

Our rates are too high, there's too many benefits, too much fraud and whatnot.

But something like a voucher or credit card system is a fraud tackling measure and I would like to believe that while there is an attitude towards welfare fraud amongst some people that is simply wrong the vast majority are not defrauding the system. It's people who lost their jobs and its difficult enough for them without making them officially second grade citizens if you like.

Because there would be a stigma attached to welfare vouchers, no doubt.

One can see it already in the rental market. Some landlords simply refuse tenants where SW pays the rent and while that may be down to bad experiences too I'm sure there a stigma element to it.

dan_d

Sweet mother of god, what sort of an OP is that?
I'm not posting again on this topic, nearly everyone here knows my opinion on statemtns about 'EVERYBODY on the dole'
.Good for you OP, a few weeks in the 90'!?You haven't the first clue what it's like. Not a notion. As for money for interview suits....well, that's assuming that just one of the endless CVs you send out in a day actually yields a reply, let alone an interview.

I'm actually speechless that there are still people out therr that are totally ignorant of social welfare and the current massive unemployment problem. I am ALL for reforming socila welfare and have frequently posted my thoughts on that.But I see red when I read posts like yours OP, because there's a level of complete ignorance with regard to what it's like and how it works, that is breathtaking.

Nhead

Spudmonkey wrote: »

As opposed to un-constructive remarks like this, perhaps you would have an idea how to stop spending 2/3s of the governments yearly intake on welfare??

It was a joke made in haste and ire- apologies.

aftermn

I have a brother and friends on the dole. It is not the 'gravy train' your suggesting, for most of them anyway.
Also, in the current employment environment, it is unrealistic to make it more difficult for people. Unless you want to head down the Tunisia route.

Some tinkering may be possible and more rigourous policing is probably necessary. Other then that, I don't think that now is the time.

Pete_Cavan

Cut Job Seekers Allowance (for those who treat the dole as a career) but leave, or possibly increase Job Seekers Benefit (for those who have paid adequate social insurance contributions but find themselves out of work). The dole should be a safety net for those who find themselves out of work not an incentive for people to stay out of it. If you have paid your fair share you should get a decent rate, if you have never contributed towards it you should get fcuk all. This would also require lowering the tax level to bring low paid workers into the tax net so they can pay something towards it.

I've said this before and I'll say it again; the government should move people from unnecessary administration positions in other department and put them in social welfare and means test everything (child benefit, medical cards, pensions, rent allowence, EVERYTHING). Means testing would save a fortune and would see only those who really need it receive money from the state. Redirecting staff would save a fortune by not having to pay off these staff who would otherwise be fired and would give better value for money because they are now doing a necessary job. This reduces the deficit, gives taxpayers better value for money, those in need of social welfare keep their payments, public servants keep their jobs.

HellFireClub

If you want to see where public money is being p*ssed all over the place in terms of wastage, ask yourself why Michael O' Leary's wife, the wife of a man who made 13 million Euro in the exercise of share options alone last year, before you even look at a cent of his salary and bonus, is automatically entitled to Child Benefit payments for 3 kids.

Before anyone tries to climb up on the back of any man or woman who is trying to survive on 188 Euro a week with no hope of getting a job, ask why those that have no need whatsoever for Child Benefit are automatically entitled to it...

The_Honeybadger

here is a report that is worth a read if you are interested in this topic, data is up to 2009 and our rates haven't changed much since then. It is very easy to make generalisations about people on the dole without knowing all the facts. No doubt some will dismiss it's findings as left wing propaganda, but to summarise:

Contrary to Government statements in recent months, Ireland’s social welfare system is not overly generous when compared to other EU 15 member states, according to research compiled by the European Anti-Poverty Network Ireland.


‘Social Welfare: How Ireland Compares in Europe‘, which uses Eurostat figures for comparative purposes, states that a single, unemployed claimant in Ireland actually receives the third smallest amount in benefits in the EU 15. Furthermore, the research challenges suggestions from the Government that Ireland spends more on social protection than other EU member states. The study from EAPN Ireland demonstrates that while EU member states are spending on average 27% of GDP on social protection, Ireland spends just 18%; the lowest in the EU 15.


According to Paul Ginnell, policy worker with EAPN Ireland, “today’s publication challenges the Government’s assertion that Ireland’s social welfare and protection levels are among the highest in the European Union. In fact, the statistics prove that even the United Kingdom spent 17% more per person on social protection in 2006 than the Irish Government did in the same period”.


The study also highlights Ireland’s exceptionally low net replacement rates. These rates are the proportion of ‘out of work income’ to ‘in work income’, i.e. the ratio of social welfare income as compared to previous take home pay.


“If we take the Irish average industrial wage as €32,747, we see that a person who loses their job can expect to earn about 35% of that figure in social welfare income. That is certainly not overly generous as some are suggesting, in fact that figure puts us in last place when compared to other EU 15 member states,” said Mr. Ginnell.

To be fair our unemployment rates were among the lowest in Europe until recently, people generally want to work! Yes there are layabouts and wasters who know every trick in the book to milk the system but the vast majority of people on welfare are not there by choice. For those of you looking to further grind these people into the dirt by enforcing some sort of food stamp or voucher system, well I hope ye never have to queue for them.

BTW I am not in any way ignoring the fiscal crisis, it is clear we are living way beyond our means as a state and drastic action will no doubt be taken if and when we fail to meet the budgetary targets laid out by our new financial overlords, but ranting and raving about people on welfare as if they spend every penny of their dole buying alcohol and going on holidays doesn't help, most people on welfare can only dream of a foreign holiday.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Mighty_Mouse

Op, you've clearly never tried to live your life on €188 per week.
Try running a household!!
I honestly believe 99% of people who can work, work.
I'm not as concerned as FF & Charlie McCreevey as driving mothers into the workforce. Irish unemployment was approx 3.5% in 2001. It's now about 14%.
Which means if there was work available 10% of our unemployed workforce would happily do it.
Clearly there's waste & clearly there's an element of permanent unemployed.
But its really a tiny % of the population. Not worth the admin spend to chase probably. But if there's a cost/benefit way to about it then fine.
As for refugees...................jesus H christ. We rely on the kindness of strangers for generations & then curse & spit on foreigners who land on our shores.
Personally I prefer to blame a government & society which repeatedly sends it's children to the four corners of the world. personally I direct my anger at a system which forces early permanent retirement on 50yr old men..........
.......................I could go on but I feel a rant coming on.

zig

jacksie66 wrote: »

This is a very patronising thread you've started here. I'm on the dole. I'm 23 and a qualified plumber. I don't feck my money I get from the dole away like you are pointing out. I use it to live each week and run my car. I have applied for so many jobs that I've lost count. So you'd replace the dole with food stamps nearly. That's just bull****. Sure there are people out there who abuse the system but that's a minority. If you had your way you'd take away my money.... plus my car, my small social life and my sanity. I wouldn't be able to save up and get out of this hell-hole and find a better life in another place. Id be sitting here getting depressed even more than i am now. Pull your head outta your arse and see the real world we live in. Come down off your high horse and don't be so pretentious. Its not like me or anybody I know wants to be on the dole. Believe me if I was offered a job in the morning I'd snap the hand off the man giving it to me... What you necessarily want to do is push people into a life of depression and despair, even further into it...

i agreed with everything until you mentioned 'I wouldn't be able to save up and get out of this hell-hole and find a better life in another place', no offence but you shouldnt be able to afford that on the dole. The dole is something to get you by, something to allow you to make ends meet. If you're able to put some away then your getting too much. And before you have a go at me, im on the dole so I know what its like. Other than that I agree with your post, the original post was a pile of nonsense.

BluePlanet

I like the idea of sweeping reforms.
Maybe not as draconian as others have posted.
But Iceland's solution of a large warehouse for foodstuffs is a really good idea.
I also agree with the goal of limited cash being paid out, but replaced by a voucher system instead, like food stamps.

While i understand genuine job seekers dismay about it.
But to claim that 99% of job seekers are genuine cases seems a stretch.

Probably none of us have statistics but from my own personal experience i can count:
- Several life long dole friends that have zero interest in applying for jobs.
- one being a chronic alcoholic
- a couple of unwed mothers (one with 5 kids) that have bf's that live with them but they claim they don't.
- neighbours of these people similarly scaming
- relations that claim dole but work cash in hand for the last number of years
- a couple friends that do the "Back to Education" thing, then when they loose interest, they wait about a year then sign-up again.

So from the POV of my personal experience it seems that dole cheating is the most common thing going.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Offy

fliball123 wrote: »

They clue is in the the illegal part...Sure they would get no tax anyway as they are ILLEGAL.

If a self employed person is caught cooking the books they get hammered with fines and we are not paying out over 22 billion to subsidise the above

The problem with what you are proposing is that you can not take away peoples liberty. They just wont stand for it. If you tell people what they can live on when they are out of work you are making them a second class citizen. Thats not the culture we live in here in Ireland. By doing that your asking for another 1916.

Offy

jacksie66 wrote: »

I know what you mean. I'm just saying if I can afford to spare up even 20e a week maybe in a year I might have enough to get a job elsewhere. I'm only 23 and all my friends are leaving this place. My brother is over in Christchurch and according to him there's work there for the next 10 years at least.. If there is any way I could get over there I'd be gone...

Its a catch 22 really, I have to limit the number of interviews I go to each week because of the cost of petrol, dry cleaning, eating away from home, etc. Living without a wage does not accommodate looking for work, it simply covers food, rent, electric, etc. The basics and nothing more. There also exists a cost to finding a job and SW does not cater for that so jobseekers on SW actually have to make personal sacrifices to get out of that trap.

gbee

The First Tuesday is the busiest night in the pubs and clubs. Nuf said.

sollar

I don't think many would have a problem with a decent job seekers benefit. Its the jobseekers allowance that is the problem - far too many work shy layabouts on this year after year. Wht should they get the same as people who have earned and built up credits.