Should we be making it harder to remain on the social welfare gravy train

The_Honeybadger

here is a report that is worth a read if you are interested in this topic, data is up to 2009 and our rates haven't changed much since then. It is very easy to make generalisations about people on the dole without knowing all the facts. No doubt some will dismiss it's findings as left wing propaganda, but to summarise:

Contrary to Government statements in recent months, Ireland’s social welfare system is not overly generous when compared to other EU 15 member states, according to research compiled by the European Anti-Poverty Network Ireland.


‘Social Welfare: How Ireland Compares in Europe‘, which uses Eurostat figures for comparative purposes, states that a single, unemployed claimant in Ireland actually receives the third smallest amount in benefits in the EU 15. Furthermore, the research challenges suggestions from the Government that Ireland spends more on social protection than other EU member states. The study from EAPN Ireland demonstrates that while EU member states are spending on average 27% of GDP on social protection, Ireland spends just 18%; the lowest in the EU 15.


According to Paul Ginnell, policy worker with EAPN Ireland, “today’s publication challenges the Government’s assertion that Ireland’s social welfare and protection levels are among the highest in the European Union. In fact, the statistics prove that even the United Kingdom spent 17% more per person on social protection in 2006 than the Irish Government did in the same period”.


The study also highlights Ireland’s exceptionally low net replacement rates. These rates are the proportion of ‘out of work income’ to ‘in work income’, i.e. the ratio of social welfare income as compared to previous take home pay.


“If we take the Irish average industrial wage as €32,747, we see that a person who loses their job can expect to earn about 35% of that figure in social welfare income. That is certainly not overly generous as some are suggesting, in fact that figure puts us in last place when compared to other EU 15 member states,” said Mr. Ginnell.

To be fair our unemployment rates were among the lowest in Europe until recently, people generally want to work! Yes there are layabouts and wasters who know every trick in the book to milk the system but the vast majority of people on welfare are not there by choice. For those of you looking to further grind these people into the dirt by enforcing some sort of food stamp or voucher system, well I hope ye never have to queue for them.

BTW I am not in any way ignoring the fiscal crisis, it is clear we are living way beyond our means as a state and drastic action will no doubt be taken if and when we fail to meet the budgetary targets laid out by our new financial overlords, but ranting and raving about people on welfare as if they spend every penny of their dole buying alcohol and going on holidays doesn't help, most people on welfare can only dream of a foreign holiday.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Mighty_Mouse

Op, you've clearly never tried to live your life on €188 per week.
Try running a household!!
I honestly believe 99% of people who can work, work.
I'm not as concerned as FF & Charlie McCreevey as driving mothers into the workforce. Irish unemployment was approx 3.5% in 2001. It's now about 14%.
Which means if there was work available 10% of our unemployed workforce would happily do it.
Clearly there's waste & clearly there's an element of permanent unemployed.
But its really a tiny % of the population. Not worth the admin spend to chase probably. But if there's a cost/benefit way to about it then fine.
As for refugees...................jesus H christ. We rely on the kindness of strangers for generations & then curse & spit on foreigners who land on our shores.
Personally I prefer to blame a government & society which repeatedly sends it's children to the four corners of the world. personally I direct my anger at a system which forces early permanent retirement on 50yr old men..........
.......................I could go on but I feel a rant coming on.

zig

jacksie66 wrote: »

This is a very patronising thread you've started here. I'm on the dole. I'm 23 and a qualified plumber. I don't feck my money I get from the dole away like you are pointing out. I use it to live each week and run my car. I have applied for so many jobs that I've lost count. So you'd replace the dole with food stamps nearly. That's just bull****. Sure there are people out there who abuse the system but that's a minority. If you had your way you'd take away my money.... plus my car, my small social life and my sanity. I wouldn't be able to save up and get out of this hell-hole and find a better life in another place. Id be sitting here getting depressed even more than i am now. Pull your head outta your arse and see the real world we live in. Come down off your high horse and don't be so pretentious. Its not like me or anybody I know wants to be on the dole. Believe me if I was offered a job in the morning I'd snap the hand off the man giving it to me... What you necessarily want to do is push people into a life of depression and despair, even further into it...

i agreed with everything until you mentioned 'I wouldn't be able to save up and get out of this hell-hole and find a better life in another place', no offence but you shouldnt be able to afford that on the dole. The dole is something to get you by, something to allow you to make ends meet. If you're able to put some away then your getting too much. And before you have a go at me, im on the dole so I know what its like. Other than that I agree with your post, the original post was a pile of nonsense.

BluePlanet

I like the idea of sweeping reforms.
Maybe not as draconian as others have posted.
But Iceland's solution of a large warehouse for foodstuffs is a really good idea.
I also agree with the goal of limited cash being paid out, but replaced by a voucher system instead, like food stamps.

While i understand genuine job seekers dismay about it.
But to claim that 99% of job seekers are genuine cases seems a stretch.

Probably none of us have statistics but from my own personal experience i can count:
- Several life long dole friends that have zero interest in applying for jobs.
- one being a chronic alcoholic
- a couple of unwed mothers (one with 5 kids) that have bf's that live with them but they claim they don't.
- neighbours of these people similarly scaming
- relations that claim dole but work cash in hand for the last number of years
- a couple friends that do the "Back to Education" thing, then when they loose interest, they wait about a year then sign-up again.

So from the POV of my personal experience it seems that dole cheating is the most common thing going.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Offy

fliball123 wrote: »

They clue is in the the illegal part...Sure they would get no tax anyway as they are ILLEGAL.

If a self employed person is caught cooking the books they get hammered with fines and we are not paying out over 22 billion to subsidise the above

The problem with what you are proposing is that you can not take away peoples liberty. They just wont stand for it. If you tell people what they can live on when they are out of work you are making them a second class citizen. Thats not the culture we live in here in Ireland. By doing that your asking for another 1916.

Offy

jacksie66 wrote: »

I know what you mean. I'm just saying if I can afford to spare up even 20e a week maybe in a year I might have enough to get a job elsewhere. I'm only 23 and all my friends are leaving this place. My brother is over in Christchurch and according to him there's work there for the next 10 years at least.. If there is any way I could get over there I'd be gone...

Its a catch 22 really, I have to limit the number of interviews I go to each week because of the cost of petrol, dry cleaning, eating away from home, etc. Living without a wage does not accommodate looking for work, it simply covers food, rent, electric, etc. The basics and nothing more. There also exists a cost to finding a job and SW does not cater for that so jobseekers on SW actually have to make personal sacrifices to get out of that trap.

gbee

The First Tuesday is the busiest night in the pubs and clubs. Nuf said.

sollar

I don't think many would have a problem with a decent job seekers benefit. Its the jobseekers allowance that is the problem - far too many work shy layabouts on this year after year. Wht should they get the same as people who have earned and built up credits.

Offy

sollar wrote: »

I don't think many would have a problem with a decent job seekers benefit. Its the jobseekers allowance that is the problem - far too many work shy layabouts on this year after year. Wht should they get the same as people who have earned and built up credits.

Why should they get less? One word answers that. Equality.

RobbieTheRobber

Offy wrote: »

Why should they get less? One word answers that. Equality.

Surely equality would also require them working, now i am not refering to the present times as I do understand how difficult it is to get a job now.

However post 07 there were a number of long term unemployed and that should have been seriously looked at, there was no equality in them claiming and the rest of us working to pay for it.

danbohan

Offy wrote: »

Its a catch 22 really, I have to limit the number of interviews I go to each week because of the cost of petrol, dry cleaning, eating away from home, etc. Living without a wage does not accommodate looking for work, it simply covers food, rent, electric, etc. The basics and nothing more. There also exists a cost to finding a job and SW does not cater for that so jobseekers on SW actually have to make personal sacrifices to get out of that trap.

cost of petrol, dry cleaning, eating away from home

or , you could try , public transport / hitchhiking , home laundry , {you have the time } and bring a sandwich.

Sir Oxman

gbee wrote: »

The First Tuesday is the busiest night in the pubs and clubs. Nuf said.

That'd be all the first-class citizen employed with children spending the child benefit then?
Fair play, one does need to unwind sometimes...:rolleyes:

Offy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Surely equality would also require them working, now i am not refering to the present times as I do understand how difficult it is to get a job now.

However post 07 there were a number of long term unemployed and that should have been seriously looked at, there was no equality in them claiming and the rest of us working to pay for it.

Until the government can provide the jobs its a no win situation. I agree that it is a problem but until jobs are available a SW system is needed.

RobbieTheRobber

Offy wrote: »

Until the government can provide the jobs its a no win situation. I agree that it is a problem but until jobs are available a SW system is needed.

No I accept that at present trying to reform the SW is not entirely pratical.

Offy

danbohan wrote: »

cost of petrol, dry cleaning, eating away from home

or , you could try , public transport / hitchhiking , home laundry , {you have the time } and bring a sandwich.

What a silly post. I live in Tubbercurry, public transport is a joke in the sticks. If I used it I would have to stay overnight somewhere. Are you going to suggest I buy a tent and camp out too? Try hitching to Dublin from Tubbercurry and see if you can get there and back in one day.
Home laundry with a suit? Or should I turn up in t-shirt and jeans? Suits need dry cleaning.
Bring a sandwich, ok thats not silly
The point been that it cost money to go to interviews, even public transport for one interview can cost up to as much as 12% of a weeks dole. That really means a night without fuel for the fire or one day of going very hungry.

Offy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

No I accept that at present trying to reform the SW is not entirely pratical.

No but the proposal for reform need to be drawn up now. It will take years to change the system but it should be started right now.

The_Honeybadger

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Surely equality would also require them working, now i am not refering to the present times as I do understand how difficult it is to get a job now.

However post 07 there were a number of long term unemployed and that should have been seriously looked at, there was no equality in them claiming and the rest of us working to pay for it.

Before the recession hit our unemployment rate was somewhere between 3-4% or somewhere around 150,000 which is perfectly normal in any functioning economy due to naturat attrition and people moving between jobs, redundancies and layoffs were happening even in the boom and people were out of work for genuine reasons, usually for a short period, and they were replaced with other people who lost their jobs keeping the figure around the 3-4%. Certainly there will always be a number of long term unempoloyed but it is not the massive scam people are making it out to be, I welcome anybody to show evidence (not anecdotal) showing we had a large number of long term unemployed pre 07-08.

There may have been many people on disability or single mothers etc, but that is a different story entirely.

sollar

Offy wrote: »

Why should they get less? One word answers that. Equality.

Its nothing to do with equality it should lowered each year as a disincentive for those that see it as a lifestyle choice.

The names jobseekers benefit and jobseekers allowance should be changed so its very clear. People on Jobseekers benefit can be rightly upset at being called layabouts etc, not so for the long termers.

If someone is still on the dole 3 or 4 years down the line it could be called (WSA) Work Shy Allowance

danbohan

Offy wrote: »

What a silly post. I live in Tubbercurry, public transport is a joke in the sticks. If I used it I would have to stay overnight somewhere. Are you going to suggest I buy a tent and camp out too? Try hitching to Dublin from Tubbercurry and see if you can get there and back in one day.
Home laundry with a suit? Or should I turn up in t-shirt and jeans? Suits need dry cleaning.
Bring a sandwich, ok thats not silly
The point been that it cost money to go to interviews, even public transport for one interview can cost up to as much as 12% of a weeks dole. That really means a night without fuel for the fire or one day of going very hungry.

if you chose to live in a place like tubercurry and your seriously looking for a job on the east coast then perhaps you should move there , you are just making excuses , keep making them and you will remain unemployed , you are receiving one the highest unemployment benifits in europe , i would be suprised if by 2013/14 it is not 50% of what it is now , people in the rest of the world manage to find jobs on a lot less welfare than irish unemployed get

Idbatterim

If you want to see where public money is being p*ssed all over the place in terms of wastage, ask yourself why Michael O' Leary's wife, the wife of a man who made 13 million Euro in the exercise of share options alone last year, before you even look at a cent of his salary and bonus, is automatically entitled to Child Benefit payments for 3 kids.

Before anyone tries to climb up on the back of any man or woman who is trying to survive on 188 Euro a week with no hope of getting a job, ask why those that have no need whatsoever for Child Benefit are automatically entitled to it...

How much wealth and taxes does O'Leary generate for this country?! you want to make it even less worthwhile to work? O'Leary might not be the best example. Lets take 2 working parents, both earning say 50k each gross, a huge amount of their wages are going towards PAYE and USC. You are trying to tell me, that those working contributing, should be penalised and those not working, some who have never contributed should be entitled to every benefit under the sun? In Germany eveything is based on how much you pay in, it makes it worth your while to work, and declare taxes and not help black economy. Ofcourse in Ireland, we are all the same, the poor should live like the rich on the riches back! Bit funny its called jobseekers benefit or allowance considering the amount of them on it that never have any intention of working! Now this may only be 5-10%, but its still 45,000 odd!

dx22

HellFireClub wrote: »

If you want to see where public money is being p*ssed all over the place in terms of wastage, ask yourself why Michael O' Leary's wife, the wife of a man who made 13 million Euro in the exercise of share options alone last year, before you even look at a cent of his salary and bonus, is automatically entitled to Child Benefit payments for 3 kids.

Before anyone tries to climb up on the back of any man or woman who is trying to survive on 188 Euro a week with no hope of getting a job, ask why those that have no need whatsoever for Child Benefit are automatically entitled to it...

Thats not Mrs. Leary's fault is it tho...?

Im sure Mr. O' Leary and Ryanair have contributed more than their fair share to the social welfare system by paying employer PRSI and thus securing social welfare benefits for his employees should they need them!

professore

Spudmonkey wrote: »

This was a thread topic before albeit in AH.

The general consensus was that it was demeaning way of administering welfare, even though it would probably mean that the right people are getting the right things, any money isn't being wasted on non-essentials.

If you've been on the dole, and I have, it is demeaning anyway. It should be demeaning, it should be a last resort. If you actually need it you won't care.

Being self employed I would be delighted to be entitled to a card like that if I had no income next month or my business failed.

dx22

professore wrote: »

If you've been on the dole, and I have, it is demeaning anyway. It should be demeaning, it should be a last resort. If you actually need it you won't care.

Being self employed I would be delighted to be entitled to a card like that if I had no income next month or my business failed.

Me too...thats the real scandal i think...that self employed people get nada if they go out of business. It discourages entreprenuership which is the only way this country is going to get out of the hole its in!!

Sir Oxman

danbohan wrote: »

if you chose to live in a place like tubercurry and your seriously looking for a job on the east coast then perhaps you should move there , you are just making excuses , keep making them and you will remain unemployed , you are receiving one the highest unemployment benifits in europe , i would be suprised if by 2013/14 it is not 50% of what it is now , people in the rest of the world manage to find jobs on a lot less welfare than irish unemployed get

missoc.org

Go do the comparisons for yourself.

murphaph

I think the overhead involved in the OPs suggestion would make it impracticable. We must move BACK to unemployment benefit being a real insurance based system (as it was until 25 years ago). Your levels of PRSI contributions should reflect your unemployment benefit payments for a set time, then you should see phased reduction in benefits to a minimum subsistence level. That level would be lower than the current €188 and MUST eventually (sooner rather than later if we are not to sink Ireland in an ocean of debt) head to levels comparable to the United Kingdom. We can't afford to pay ourselves more "because we're worth it".

People who work and lose their jobs should have a cushion. This should gradually be removed to ensure people don't get to comfortable on benefits. Anyone denying that there is a hardcore of benefit professionals is not living in the real world. I don't believe they make up the majority of benefit claimants BUT we must avoid the newly unemployed letting unemployment become their way of life.

If people can't find jobs in Ireland, then they should look elsewhere I'm afraid.

snubbleste

dx22 wrote: »

Me too...thats the real scandal i think...that self employed people get nada if they go out of business. It discourages entreprenuership which is the only way this country is going to get out of the hole its in!!

This is not true. A self-employed person is entitled to means-tested jobseekers allowance.

Coconut Joe

I was thinking about a card based system myself recently. The way I'd like to see it work is you get a little bit of cash which you are obviously free to spend as you wish, the remainder is given as credit on your card which can only be used to buy Irish made products and services, this way there's no sudden chunk of money removed from the economy and the majority of the money paid out will go directly to Irish business. Problem is of course is how much something like this would cost to implement.

dan_d

murphaph wrote: »

I think the overhead involved in the OPs suggestion would make it impracticable. We must move BACK to unemployment benefit being a real insurance based system (as it was until 25 years ago). Your levels of PRSI contributions should reflect your unemployment benefit payments for a set time, then you should see phased reduction in benefits to a minimum subsistence level. That level would be lower than the current €188 and MUST eventually (sooner rather than later if we are not to sink Ireland in an ocean of debt) head to levels comparable to the United Kingdom. We can't afford to pay ourselves more "because we're worth it".

People who work and lose their jobs should have a cushion. This should gradually be removed to ensure people don't get to comfortable on benefits. Anyone denying that there is a hardcore of benefit professionals is not living in the real world. I don't believe they make up the majority of benefit claimants BUT we must avoid the newly unemployed letting unemployment become their way of life.

If people can't find jobs in Ireland, then they should look elsewhere I'm afraid.

+1
This I agree with.
To go around in the times we are in, saying that everyone on the dole is the same etc,etc indicates (to me anyway), that you haven't got the first idea about what's going on in the real world.

Sir Oxman

Coconut Joe wrote: »

I was thinking about a card based system myself recently. The way I'd like to see it work is you get a little bit of cash which you are obviously free to spend as you wish, the remainder is given as credit on your card which can only be used to buy Irish made products and services, this way there's no sudden chunk of money removed from the economy and the majority of the money paid out will go directly to Irish business. Problem is of course is how much something like this would cost to implement.

The majority if not every last penny of someone's JSB/JSA payments in this country is spent locally - and that's for the vast majority of recipients.

Coconut Joe

gambiaman wrote: »

The majority if not every last penny of someone's JSB/JSA payments in this country is spent locally - and that's for the vast majority of recipients.

True, but i was aiming a bit higher than spent locally, going for produced locally wherever possible.

Sir Oxman

Coconut Joe wrote: »

True, but i was aiming a bit higher than spent locally, going for produced locally wherever possible.

Cost would be a big factor.

Amhran Nua

Spudmonkey wrote: »

perhaps you would have an idea how to stop spending 2/3s of the governments yearly intake on welfare??

That's fairly straightforward, create lots of well paying jobs.

Everyone is coming at this from the wrong angle in my opinion, yes welfare is too generous but if you reduced direct dole payments to zero you would knock a whopping 20% off the welfare bill. The fact is, if the jobs are there people will work, during the boom we had almost full employment.

The solution to most of the economic woes afflicting Ireland today is to create, beg, borrow, or steal jobs and get them in here. I'm not especially bothered about how that affects other countries, they have plenty of very intelligent people working fulltime figuring out how to do the exact same thing to us.

This is where government policy must be focused, primarily. This is where our energies should be going, this is the direction we must take if we are to build a decent future for ourselves.

westies4ever

this is a very tricky and prickly subject - in my line of work (debt counselling) i see both sides every day. There are the poor sods who are out of work through no fault of their own, who are really struggling to get by and would do anything to get a job. They are definitely not coining it on on the dole. I feel so sorry for them.

Then there are the professionals, the ones claiming everything - lone parent when they live with a partner, rent allowances they shouldnt be entitled to etc etc etc, they know every trick in the book

I interviewed one lady, single parent, four kids (all different fathers), yes she worked 2 hours a day cleaning, but that only netted her about €200 a month. With all her welfare and maintenance payments totted up her net income was €4.5k a month. I could have cried.

I don't know what the answer is, maybe just more careful monitoring to ensure the system isnt being manipulated.

intolerant

padma wrote: »

I see your point, though you have to admit people who work also take their money out of the country on holidays. As for going on a bender, sure the tax man gets that anyway. The only thing I can see really is cash is a problem for everyone.

My friend for example lost his job, gets 188 euro a week, 4 euro during winter for heating, and 15 euro a month for mortgage relief. He has no money. He is on the dole. He's credit card is maxed. He has a loan out he can't repay. He is constantly in and out of the bank looking for an extension on a moratorium.

Fact is he doesn't get his lighting and heating paid for, he doesn't get his mortgage paid for. He is out of work a year now and the prospects of a job haven't appeared. Minimum wage jobs aren't there anymore. He would take on a minimum wage job but hasn't had any luck probably because he is overskilled.

What I'm saying is you aren't the only one in a bad situation and the welfare isn't the gravy train that your making it out to be for a large proportion of the recipients on it.

Your last paragraph makes complete sense, show me the individuals that were on back to work schemes and the dole in general between 1999 and 2007 and ill show you the ones we need to deal with. I am a hard working Public Sector worker (there are a few you know) and i have no problem paying taxes or taking pay cuts which in turn will support my fellow beings who lose their jobs. We need to cherish those that have genuinely lost their jobs during this financial mess and help them all that we can, on the other hand i firmly believe that to those that have been on welfare for an extended time we should reduce their payments after 2 years by €10 per month. This might not sound much but when someones payment goes from €220 PW to €160 PW in 6 months they will start to feel the pinch and get off their ass! As long as it pays to be out of work, the laziest in our society will linger!

There will always be genuine cases where people need a dig out but lets weed out the idle and support the portion of Private Sector workers who have lost everything!

not yet

westies4ever wrote: »

this is a very tricky and prickly subject - in my line of work (debt counselling) i see both sides every day. There are the poor sods who are out of work through no fault of their own, who are really struggling to get by and would do anything to get a job. They are definitely not coining it on on the dole. I feel so sorry for them.

Then there are the professionals, the ones claiming everything - lone parent when they live with a partner, rent allowances they shouldnt be entitled to etc etc etc, they know every trick in the book

I interviewed one lady, single parent, four kids (all different fathers), yes she worked 2 hours a day cleaning, but that only netted her about €200 a month. With all her welfare and maintenance payments totted up her net income was €4.5k a month. I could have cried.

I don't know what the answer is, maybe just more careful monitoring to ensure the system isnt being manipulated.

Yeah but the problem is you have people coming on here saying........prove it, or yeah I bet you know someone who knows someone. The bleeding heart brigade in this country need to get real......4-5 billion could be saved on SW if the system worked correctly.

I live in an apartment complex where 70% of people claim rent allowance, this is a joke when you consider how bad the situation really is.And before the do-gooders get on asking ''but where are they meant to live'' where the fcuk did they live in the 80s.........at home,or with friends. how did we get to a stage where the state pays for luxury 2-3 apartments for long term layabouts.

NIMAN

The SW system is meant to provide enough of an income for an individual or a family to have a reasonable standard of living.

Its debatable whether or not 'this standard of living' should include the ability to pay for alcohol, broadband, or Sky TV.

danbohan

not yet wrote: »

Yeah but the problem is you have people coming on here saying........prove it, or yeah I bet you know someone who knows someone. The bleeding heart brigade in this country need to get real......4-5 billion could be saved on SW if the system worked correctly.

I live in an apartment complex where 70% of people claim rent allowance, this is a joke when you consider how bad the situation really is.And before the do-gooders get on asking ''but where are they meant to live'' where the fcuk did they live in the 80s.........at home,or with friends. how did we get to a stage where the state pays for luxury 2-3 apartments for long term layabouts.

how did we get to a stage where the state pays for luxury 2-3 apartments for long term layabouts

hopefully germany and the rest eu will push into making sure we end this nonsense

Offy

danbohan wrote: »

if you chose to live in a place like tubercurry and your seriously looking for a job on the east coast then perhaps you should move there , you are just making excuses , keep making them and you will remain unemployed , you are receiving one the highest unemployment benifits in europe , i would be suprised if by 2013/14 it is not 50% of what it is now , people in the rest of the world manage to find jobs on a lot less welfare than irish unemployed get

Im not unemployed, Im a student. Yes I am on social welfare but thats by the by.

mm_surf

Part of the solution would be to actually enforce the requirements for social welfare.

I've been unemployed the past year, made redundant. Been on JSB, now moving to JSA. Getting interviews aplenty, so only a matter of time until I am back in work.

Guess how many times I've been asked about my attempts to gain work over the past year?

0

No-one I know has (there were a few hundred of us made redundant together, bump into each other often)

Eh? It's one of the requirements for recieving either JSB or JSA! So why the hell isn't it being checked? Instead, once a month, a piece of paper is shoved through the slot at me to sign, and taken back again. Would it not make sense to spend those 30 seconds, once a month, actually checking things? Anything that seems that it warrants further investigation, send over to the investigative unit?

Should not the majority of social welfare have this requirement? Even disability/invalidity? Single parent allowance?

Obviously pensions would be the exception.

There seems to be a lot of resentment towards some people receiving social welfare for being workshy, lazy gits. So find them, Dept of Social Welfare!

dan_d

mm_surf wrote: »

Part of the solution would be to actually enforce the requirements for social welfare.

I've been unemployed the past year, made redundant. Been on JSB, now moving to JSA. Getting interviews aplenty, so only a matter of time until I am back in work.

Guess how many times I've been asked about my attempts to gain work over the past year?

0

No-one I know has (there were a few hundred of us made redundant together, bump into each other often)

Eh? It's one of the requirements for recieving either JSB or JSA! So why the hell isn't it being checked? Instead, once a month, a piece of paper is shoved through the slot at me to sign, and taken back again. Would it not make sense to spend those 30 seconds, once a month, actually checking things? Anything that seems that it warrants further investigation, send over to the investigative unit?

Should not the majority of social welfare have this requirement? Even disability/invalidity? Single parent allowance?

Obviously pensions would be the exception.

There seems to be a lot of resentment towards some people receiving social welfare for being workshy, lazy gits. So find them, Dept of Social Welfare!

An EXCELLENT point! (Capitals to emphasise how much I agree with it!:D)

Changes to the system need to include way more investigating people, to find out exactly what they're at. Like you, I'm unemployed (though wish I was getting the interviews!). Every month I've to put together a package of all the applications and responses I've had, to send to a mortgage insurance company, so they'll cover my mortgage payments, along with a form that's been stamped by the Dept of SW. They then spend about a week going through them, or 10 days, before I get the payment from them. I have to continue paying the premium to them during this time aswell. This is a company that I've paid a premium (a high one) to for the last 3 years, and who require more paperwork than the Social Welafare do, to prove I'm out of work.And they'll only pay out like this for a year.

Not once have I ever been asked for a single thing by the SW. Nothing at all.The most it extends to is handing over my SW card at the post office every week. I haven't signed on, haven't done anything. They've sent me 2 letters telling me I have to visit FAS at a set time to discuss my "options" and that's it. It's as though they think by sending me a letter they'll magically make a job appear for me - especially since FAS can do feck all for me, so I'm completely on my own and looking after myself. It astounds me. I'm never asked for ID, nothing. No wonder the Dept of SW is haemorrhaging money, if that's how they're operating.

AlekSmart

mm_surf wrote: »

Part of the solution would be to actually enforce the requirements for social welfare.


Should not the majority of social welfare have this requirement? Even disability/invalidity? Single parent allowance?


There seems to be a lot of resentment towards some people receiving social welfare for being workshy, lazy gits. So find them, Dept of Social Welfare!

This is a very pertinent and thorny problem but one that`s not easily solved in a politically correct manner.

I remember an RTE Prime Time programme some time back which touched on the nature of the DSP`s Investigations Branch and it`s work.

The picture portrayed was of a seriously understrength and poorly resourced unit operating under all manner of restraints.

Lies,evasion,threats and courting of interference by Politicians,Priests and Medical professionals are all part of the fraudsters defence programme.

It needs to be realized that many of the long term fraudsters will not just roll-over at the approach of a DSP Inspector.

Added to this is the relative guarantee that if the DSP manage to put together a viable case and take it to Court,the legal system will generally err on the side of the individual.

Even the Court process,if successful will more than likely be costly as Free Legal Aid will almost certainly be afforded to such an accused.

There is quite a history of convicted Social Welfare fraudsters being allowed to repay agreed sums over very long time-frames,whilst continuing to have access to the system they have just plundered.

Our national admiration for the "rebel" and the wide-boy,able to work-the-system has left us with a generation of the brightest and best spongers in Europe,augmented now by the fraudesters of several different continents who have come to experience our native charitable intent !

shoegirl

padma wrote: »

We need to be careful, talking about the unemployed in the way you are is lets face it stereotypical. I'm sure you know plenty of people out of work for a year or so who are so in debt they can't move outside their house. Some have committed suicide due to the financial burdens they've found themselves in. As for the two lads who refused 28k a year, the employer should have hired someone who has a mortgage, he did get 200 odd c.v's

Actually he admitted that 300 people applied for that one job.

So 298 people got turned down for the job. 2 people got an offer which means his criticism of rejection was about less than 1% of the actual total of people who applied for the job. Who knows if they told him the real reason for turnng it down - maybe they were offered a higher paid job!!

Also if you follow the details of that case it happened coincidentally that the lucky candidates both just happened to be migrant workers with families - they'd probably be paying the highest levels of rent (as they'd have less access to informal sources of information about local rentals) and more likely to have a spouse not working. A point that was made was that employers (rightly) cannot ask employees about their marital status or children, so single people more likely to be happy to get that level of income wouldn't be readily identifiable.

shoegirl

Offy wrote: »

What a silly post. I live in Tubbercurry, public transport is a joke in the sticks. If I used it I would have to stay overnight somewhere. Are you going to suggest I buy a tent and camp out too? Try hitching to Dublin from Tubbercurry and see if you can get there and back in one day.
Home laundry with a suit? Or should I turn up in t-shirt and jeans? Suits need dry cleaning.
Bring a sandwich, ok thats not silly
The point been that it cost money to go to interviews, even public transport for one interview can cost up to as much as 12% of a weeks dole. That really means a night without fuel for the fire or one day of going very hungry.

I have to say I agree here. I lived in Cork for 8 years and my whole life was based there, but when I got notice of redundancy (not even very upfront - we were told we were "at risk" and they setup this pretence of trying to "mitigate" the situation, i.e. pretend they were looking at all the options) I applied for about 40-50 jobs in 3 months and by the end of a week after the layoff I think I had 4 interviews, none of which I was impressed much with. So I packed my bags and went to Dublin and got myself enough contract work to last me til June.

Ok so it meant losing half my life and I hardly see friends, but at least its work and I've learnt a lot. I'd rather this than being miserable in some slum flat in Cork and not knowing how long it was going to go on for. Maybe some day I might get back down south, but for now, I'm happier to be working anywhere than in the limbo of social welfare.

Hannibal

The real gravy train is the rent allowance grazy train. All you seem to have to do is have a baby then you get at least €800 per month towards a house. My neighbour does this and both of them are only 20 with a kid, house paid for plus they both get their full €190 labour per week..

mm_surf

AlekSmart wrote: »

This is a very pertinent and thorny problem but one that`s not easily solved in a politically correct manner.

I remember an RTE Prime Time programme some time back which touched on the nature of the DSP`s Investigations Branch and it`s work.

The picture portrayed was of a seriously understrength and poorly resourced unit operating under all manner of restraints.

Lies,evasion,threats and courting of interference by Politicians,Priests and Medical professionals are all part of the fraudsters defence programme.

It needs to be realized that many of the long term fraudsters will not just roll-over at the approach of a DSP Inspector.

Added to this is the relative guarantee that if the DSP manage to put together a viable case and take it to Court,the legal system will generally err on the side of the individual.

Even the Court process,if successful will more than likely be costly as Free Legal Aid will almost certainly be afforded to such an accused.

There is quite a history of convicted Social Welfare fraudsters being allowed to repay agreed sums over very long time-frames,whilst continuing to have access to the system they have just plundered.

Our national admiration for the "rebel" and the wide-boy,able to work-the-system has left us with a generation of the brightest and best spongers in Europe,augmented now by the fraudesters of several different continents who have come to experience our native charitable intent !

Wasn't talking about checking credentials and job applications with a view to taking a court case, reimbursing money, etc.

Was talking about stopping payments to people who are not actively seeking work, one of the few conditions of many social welfare schemes!

Of course, this poses the question - what do we (as a society) do to/for people unwilling to look for work? Have we got the stomach to stop payments?

We stop payments for some people due to circumstances, obviously (i.e. not meeting means tests, etc). Do we extend this for people who have no other incomes?

DoesNotCompute

OP, although I agree with your suggestion of a credit-card style payment system that can only be used on the bare essentials, I have to pull you up on this:

fliball123 wrote: »

We need people to get back to work and when I read of two foreign nationals who were overed a salary of about 28k and they were told by their wifes that they are entitled to more on the dole it got me thinking how crazy this little country is.

What has nationality got to do with it? There are plenty of Irish citizens who've never worked a day in their lives living off the scratch. Whether or not someone is a "bloody foreigner" or not is irrelevant.

I really can't stand it when Irish people cast all foreigners in the same light. Sure our very own Michael Lowry (allegedly?) and co. are/have been ripping off the state something bad.

HellFireClub

mm_surf wrote: »

Wasn't talking about checking credentials and job applications with a view to taking a court case, reimbursing money, etc.

Was talking about stopping payments to people who are not actively seeking work, one of the few conditions of many social welfare schemes!

Of course, this poses the question - what do we (as a society) do to/for people unwilling to look for work? Have we got the stomach to stop payments?

We stop payments for some people due to circumstances, obviously (i.e. not meeting means tests, etc). Do we extend this for people who have no other incomes?

What should be happening at this stage, given that we are in a national crisis here, is that emergency legislation should be introduced to do the following:

(1) Every person who is receiving unemployment assistance or benefit, needs to register with the Dept. of Social Protection, (this could be done through a website to reduce/eliminate admin costs), their particular set of skills or their trade or area of specialisation.

(2) Every business that has a new job offering/vacancy, should have to first of all notify the Dept. of Social Protection of the position.

If you could accomplish this, which could be implemented in a month, you could immediately start connecting up job opportunities with those who are qualified...

I can tell you from recent experiences that recruitment agencies and employers themselves are not being fair to folks who are unemployed, and as for the stoogies that are employed in the Dept. of Social Protection, especially at local office level, you haven't a hope of getting them to cooperate with any initiative like this, they are from my experience the laziest most intransigent and obstructionist group of employees within the entire public sector...

mm_surf

HellFireClub wrote: »

What should be happening at this stage, given that we are in a national crisis here, is that emergency legislation should be introduced to do the following:

(1) Every person who is receiving unemployment assistance or benefit, needs to register with the Dept. of Social Protection, (this could be done through a website to reduce/eliminate admin costs), their particular set of skills or their trade or area of specialisation.

(2) Every business that has a new job offering/vacancy, should have to first of all notify the Dept. of Social Protection of the position.

Complicated, but possible. The germans run a sort of system where they actually get you a job. Take it, or your dole is cut. Could be the other end of the country, but still - its a job.

Our current situation with a LOT of people in negative equity, need both partners in work to meet the mortgage and both can't move, etc. would give a few problems.

I propose a system that's a little simpler.

Once a month, when signing on, a simple question is asked:

"What have you done to seek employment?"

But again, as well as doing the above, we need to know what to do when the response is:

"Nothing, why?"