Should we be making it harder to remain on the social welfare gravy train

Gumbo

dan_d wrote: »

I heard the story. Left me speechless too.

Doesn't take away from the fact that many of those on the dole are up sh*t creek without a paddle, and are equally and better qualified than you. So you shouldn't point fingers and make sweeping generalisations, based on one looking at one person you know (out of 450,000) and a story in a newspaper.

a bit like people pointing fingers and making sweeping generalisations, based on one looking at one person you know (out of 300,000) and a story in a newspaper on Public Servants.

Idbatterim

you cant blame those on the dole for the system being rotten and in certain cases, making a career on welfare a better alternative than working! Id say blame politicians, but maybe we should blame ourselves, we voted those gobs***es in term after term, always based on short sighted policies and what will I get out of it... Its not just welfare that needs reform, there isnt one place you can point to that doesn't!

later12

fliball123 wrote: »

its like I am working for my own bills and a couple of strangers aswell

But you are not.

SupaNova

The problem as with most things is government take peoples money to do so called good. The fact Welfare is on a national system is the only reason it survived. On a national level there is some anonimity between the people who fund it the most and the people who abuse it the most.

Imagine if they tested things at even local or parish level first. How long do you think people would pay money into a unemployment fund to support the local scroungers that now seem to be in every village. How long do you think local people would pay into a local medical fund for people to use when some people in the village like to visit the doctor at the drop of the hat. Social Welfare would never have got started if they had done local testing.

Social Welfare convinced people now that without it you would die on the streets of starvation if you were unemployed. You would not be able to afford medical care etc etc. The problem is its got so far out of control we have created dependent sections of people.


Government is good at one thing: It knows how to break your legs, hand you a crutch, and say, "See, if it weren't for the government, you wouldn't be able to walk."

Harry Browne

feicim

fliball123 wrote: »

... I am left with about 30 quid a week for non essentials ...

Do you count sky tv, tv license, cigarettes, holidays, going out etc as essential or non-essential?

I believe you count these as non-essential for the unemployed, or do you apply a different standard to yourself?

fliball123 wrote: »

... For example these cards/credit cannot be used to buy alcohol, smokes, pay for sky sport, or any other luxuries that people think they are entitled to....[/B]

feicim

fliball123 wrote: »

Steady on there kid...firstly my taxes should not be funding your social life regardless of how fcuking small

Its called "social welfare" (man cannot live on bread alone).

You come across as a typical Irish, know-it-all begrudger.

bmarley

A family I know are allocated 2000 + per month on state handouts - child benefit/rent supplement/dole. Neither parent has ever worked or done training of any kind. They pay a cleaner to come in a couple of days each week - she does the ironing, cleans the car, sweeps the yard. I know what I'd give these people...

dan_d

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I go to SW, having paid my taxes, worked, gone to college etc,etc,etc...and I'm told I get the dole for 1 year, after which time it's means-tested. End of.

If I went in with a gaggle of kids in tow, having not finished school, never worked and not bothered with any sort of training, I could have whatever I wanted.They'd be throwing stuff at me. Free college courses, free housing, fuel paid for, kids paid for, spending money each week......

It's a truly unbelievable system.

feicim

dan_d wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I go to SW, having paid my taxes, worked, gone to college etc,etc,etc...and I'm told I get the dole for 1 year, after which time it's means-tested. End of.

If I went in with a gaggle of kids in tow, having not finished school, never worked and not bothered with any sort of training, I could have whatever I wanted.They'd be throwing stuff at me. Free college courses, free housing, fuel paid for, kids paid for, spending money each week......

It's a truly unbelievable system.

Dan, I'n not sure what your point is... you would be entitled to the following like everybody else on welfare.

1. a college course (this is free for working people too)
2. Subsidised housing (no one gets fully free housing)
3. fuel allowance in winter
4. spending money each week (job seekers benefit or allowance)

the only thing of your list that you would not get (without a gaggle of kids) is not-surprisingly - childrens allowance (or as you call it "kids paid for")

Good news - you have access to this unbelieveable system too! You too can get all this "free stuff" "thrown" at you.

pocketvenus

dan_d wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again - I go to SW, having paid my taxes, worked, gone to college etc,etc,etc...and I'm told I get the dole for 1 year, after which time it's means-tested. End of.

If I went in with a gaggle of kids in tow, having not finished school, never worked and not bothered with any sort of training, I could have whatever I wanted.They'd be throwing stuff at me. Free college courses, free housing, fuel paid for, kids paid for, spending money each week......

It's a truly unbelievable system.

You hit the nail on the head there dand and this is the root of the problem until we tackle this the less you do the more you get attitude and the blatant fraud in the system, well then we will never get out welfare cost under control.

I am like you worked since I could during the summers, part time etc to help put myself through college degree. Got a job upon leaving college and have never been unemployed a day in my life until 20 months ago. Then used my savings to do 2 other courses to improve my qualifications.
I get nothing only the basic €188 and be told I am lower than lower and am a scrounger etc is insulting and wrong.

Also all this talk about getting UK SW rates - it is not comparable. First of all the cost of living is lower than Ireland , secondly they get way more benefits than here with the basic rate - whatever that is. Also everyone over there has NHS so they do not have healthcare expenses like some people here recently unemployed would have.

But no matter what you saying to some people it won't change their mind - a year or two unemployed should fix that as we will soon see how their attitude changes. It is easy to say oh I get rid of tv, car, food etc when you have a wage and no threat of unemployment. Another case when you have to face it and the kids are kicking up hell etc.

pocketvenus

feicim wrote: »

Dan, I'n not sure what your point is... you would be entitled to the following like everybody else on welfare.

1. a college course (this is free for working people too)
2. Subsidised housing (no one gets fully free housing)
3. fuel allowance in winter
4. spending money each week (job seekers benefit or allowance)

the only thing of your list that you would not get (without a gaggle of kids) is not-surprisingly - childrens allowance (or as you call it "kids paid for")

Good news - you have access to this unbelieveable system too! You too can get all this "free stuff" "thrown" at you.

If you did actually looked into it getting college places if very hard and all you get is €500 towards it and you also may loose your SW payments. So how can they get the cash to pay for college. Grants are impossible to get and priority give to new students. Also places for mature students on courses are few and far between and obviously competition very high.

Fuel allowance is not given to everyone on SW. I know for a fact 2 people who are on the SW are were denied it - one is 26 and living with a widow mother who gets nothing only €190 & he gets €188 that is it.

The way you get this so called "free stuff" is to lie and defraud the system but people like dand seems to be an honest person and is not abusing the system. Would you prefer he and people like him do it.

feicim

pocketvenus wrote: »

If you did actually looked into it getting college places if very hard and all you get is €500 towards it and you also may loose your SW payments. So how can they get the cash to pay for college. Grants are impossible to get and priority give to new students. Also places for mature students on courses are few and far between and obviously competition very high..

And do you think somebody else (like dand's imaginary woman with a gaggle of kids) gets access to a different "better" system than you do?

pocketvenus wrote: »

Fuel allowance is not given to everyone on SW. I know for a fact 2 people who are on the SW are were denied it - one is 26 and living with a widow mother who gets nothing only €190 & he gets €188 that is it...

Its available to everybody who is entitled to it. If not you won't get it.

pocketvenus wrote: »

The way you get this so called "free stuff" is to lie and defraud the system but people like dand seems to be an honest person and is not abusing the system. Would you prefer he and people like him do it.

If you are genuinely entitled to it, you don't have to lie or defraud, all you do is fill out the form and apply for it.

Tayla

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I never have been and I never would be.
If I couldn't get a job, I'd emigrate.

I'm sorry but that's not an option for a lot of people, luckily myself or my partner do not need to be on social welfare but if we did need the dole well emigrating for one of us would not be possible as we have kids and we would not want to split up the family.

Some things such as family are much more important than money and this should be especially true in times of recession when family might be pretty much all you have!

angelfire9

I'm unemployed
With 2 kids and a mortgage and thankfully a husband working

I can't just up sticks & leave

As for the gravy train?
My JSB has finished so I get nothing from DSCFA except Child Benefit
Our household disposable income is €18 a week and we would be up the creek if we didn't get the €200 a month in Child Benefit payments

Changing CB payments to vouchers or a debit card for child related expenses is a ridiculous notion
Who decides what is or is not child related??
Certainly nappies and formula & baby related expenses are easily identified and can be purchased in Dunnes or Tesco

But what about things like books (not school books fiction books) or games or toys are kids with parents on welfare not entitled to an occasional treat?
I doubt the vouchers or debit cards would be accepted in Easons or Gamestop!

flutered

every one is saying that social welfare is costing x amount of money, can some one tell me the amount of money that is actually paid out, i guess the adminstration costs are not low, also rent and heating of office space, plus the running costs of buildings that they own.

later12

flutered wrote: »

every one is saying that social welfare is costing x amount of money, can some one tell me the amount of money that is actually paid out, i guess the adminstration costs are not low, also rent and heating of office space, plus the running costs of buildings that they own.

I don't think there is any publicly accessible review of annual Department spending, however the total allocation for 2011 is €20.6bn. There are 48 social welfare offices around the country and approximately 2,000 staff work for the department.

However, to deomstrate the magnitude of the welfare bill in round figures, one only has to imagine that if every one of those staff were on €50k p/a, the staff bill would arrive at about €100m. The social welfare bill, being in the region of €20 billion is still over 200 times that. The extreme bulk of it is claims.

SupaNova

every one is saying that social welfare is costing x amount of money, can some one tell me the amount of money that is actually paid out, i guess the adminstration costs are not low, also rent and heating of office space, plus the running costs of buildings that they own.

Good question. No doubt we are paying quite a fee for the privilege of this wonderful humanitarian system.

I'm unemployed
With 2 kids and a mortgage and thankfully a husband working

I can't just up sticks & leave

As for the gravy train?
My JSB has finished so I get nothing from DSCFA except Child Benefit
Our household disposable income is €18 a week and we would be up the creek if we didn't get the €200 a month in Child Benefit payments

Changing CB payments to vouchers or a debit card for child related expenses is a ridiculous notion
Who decides what is or is not child related??
Certainly nappies and formula & baby related expenses are easily identified and can be purchased in Dunnes or Tesco

But what about things like books (not school books fiction books) or games or toys are kids with parents on welfare not entitled to an occasional treat?
I doubt the vouchers or debit cards would be accepted in Easons or Gamestop!

Imagine if you and your husband were allowed to save instead forced to pay taxes to fuel the obviously useless social welfare system for years.

And imagine if the government had never instated the ridiculous Child Benefit. No one else should pay for you to have a child. The hard working person without children is definitely one of the worst victims of the system.

The sad reality is that you and many others are going to be up **** creek as you say. All because they made plans on the basis of these ridiculous benefits being around for ever.

As for treats, were these social welfare benefits ever meant to be for treats? Instead of children paying €60 for Playstation or Xbox game, maybe they can make do with playing football with their friends. As for books and educational material, there is a ton free online. I am sure anyone who shops at gamestop has a computer and internet connection in their home also.

Tayla

SupaNova wrote: »

As for books and educational material, there is a ton free online. I am sure anyone who shops at gamestop has a computer and internet connection in their home also.

Unfortunately noone on social welfare should ever make the mistake on boards to mention the fact that they might have broadband......it is a luxury that people on social welfare shouldn't be entitled to have, never mind the fact that most people need the internet to search for jobs and email cv's etc.

We're getting to the stage in this country where some people will begrudge someone on social welfare a tea bag.

SupaNova

Unfortunately noone on social welfare should ever make the mistake on boards to mention the fact that they might have broadband......it is a luxury that people on social welfare shouldn't be entitled to have, never mind the fact that most people need the internet to search for jobs and email cv's etc.

We're getting to the stage in this country where some people will begrudge someone on social welfare a tea bag.

How did people get jobs before the internet?

The internet while can be a help for researching it is mostly a waste of time for applying. Going door to door, delivering a CV personally is still one of the best ways to get a job. No doubt you will bring up not being able to afford to go door to door or some other excuse. People got jobs before the internet.

I got my current job going door to door. My sister got her current job doing the same.

Spudmonkey

Tayla wrote: »

We're getting to the stage in this country where some people will begrudge someone on social welfare a tea bag.

Because we have no money we are getting to the stage of questioning what non essentials people are spending their money on. It's a pretty big jump between a tea bag and a treat from gamestop.

SupaNova

We're getting to the stage in this country where some people will begrudge someone on social welfare a tea bag.

Its not begrudgery. Social Welfare has to be cut back. Someone else made the comment that they might not be able to afford a PlayStation game.

That very statement tells me we are along way away from people not being able to afford a teabag.

Somehow the dole has morphed from offering some security, into offering someone on the dole the same standard of living as those working.

Tayla

SupaNova wrote: »

How did people get jobs before the internet?

The internet while can be a help for researching it is mostly a waste of time for applying. Going door to door, delivering a CV personally is still one of the best ways to get a job. No doubt you will bring up not being able to afford to go door to door or some other excuse. People got jobs before the internet.

I got my current job going door to door. My sister got her current job doing the same.

I'm not unemployed but i'm fed up with the way people are going on.

Just because you and your sister got a job going door to door does not mean that everyone can.......

where I live if you don't have a car you're not going to get too far going door to door, you do need the internet here to have a look for jobs, if you can't afford a car and petrol then you need the internet, it's a fact for a lot of places in the country.

later12

SupaNova wrote: »

Somehow the dole has morphed form offering some security, into offering someone on the dole the same standard of living as those working.

The same standard? Really?

Perhaps you mean those on the lowest earnings i.e. minimum wage, which is itself not representative of the entire workforce. The average income workforce itself still has a case to answer on the issue of wage inflation.

Tayla

SupaNova wrote: »

Its not begrudgery. Social Welfare has to be cut back. Someone else made the comment that they might not be able to afford a PlayStation game.

That very statement tells me we are along way away from people not being able to afford a teabag.

Somehow the dole has morphed form offering some security, into offering someone on the dole the same standard of living as those working.

I wasnt referring to you but believe me a lot of these threads have come close to it, basically if you don't need that cup of tea then you should not be having it.

jc84

it amazes me that all this talk of social welfare reform happens now, when most of the people who are on it are genuinely out of work, but where was all this talk of reform 4 or 5 years ago when there were plenty jobs and 99% of the people on benefits were just milking the system, they need to cut the pension, i thought everyone needs to take a hit?

jc84

Tayla wrote: »

I'm not unemployed but i'm fed up with the way people are going on.

Just because you and your sister got a job going door to door does not mean that everyone can.......

where I live if you don't have a car you're not going to get too far going door to door, you do need the internet here to have a look for jobs, if you can't afford a car and petrol then you need the internet, it's a fact for a lot of places in the country.

careful, some of the people on this thread will see the internet as a luxury!!!

SupaNova

Just because you and your sister got a job going door to door does not mean that everyone can.......

True but no doubt not having internet would be a great excuse.

where I live if you don't have a car you're not going to get too far going door to door, you do need the internet here to have a look for jobs, if you can't afford a car and petrol then you need the internet, it's a fact for a lot of places in the country.

Ah more, excuses, no surprise. First you say if you don't have a car, most people have cars. Even if you don't I am sure you might have a friend who could drop you to town. Is it a fact that anyone's large network of family and friends will have no car and could not give you a lift somewhere.

SupaNova

It amazes me that all this talk of social welfare reform happens now, when most of the people who are on it are genuinely out of work, but where was all this talk of reform 4 or 5 years ago when there were plenty jobs and 99% of the people on benefits were just milking the system, they need to cut the pension, i thought everyone needs to take a hit?

I wouldn't like to reform it at all, i would like to abolish it. But at this point in time that is impossible. The fact is it needs to be cut.

A crisis will definitely bring to the forefront the issue of waste. That doesn't mean waste shouldn't be cut.

Like i said the people genuinely on the dole are actually victims. The genuine people will always be screwed by the system. Genuine people would be far better off saving for a rainy day than paying into this system.

KidKeith89

fliball123 wrote: »

For example these cards/credit cannot be used to buy alcohol, smokes, pay for sky sport, or any other luxuries that people think they are entitled to.

If someone genuinely can't get a job - and let's face it, someone who's spent the last decade or so doing the job they love and spent years specialising isn't gonna go out and work in McDonald's - should be supported by the state. If they've paid tax for the last few years and are expected to cough up billions of euros for the bankers' and politicians' idiocy, why shouldn't they be supported, for at least a while? Saying that the social welfare they receive should not be used to buy luxuries is stupid; we all need a life otherwise we'd crack up! People should be more focused on NOT bailing out the banks with tens of billions, rather than on someone who's lost their job and is claiming less than 200e a week

SupaNova

Saying that the social welfare they receive should not be used to buy luxuries is stupid;

Social Welfare was never meant to be about luxuries. The fact is if we don't make efforts to balance our budget which means cutting social welfare you are going to be kissing your luxuries and your children's goodbye for a long time.