Should we be making it harder to remain on the social welfare gravy train

AlekSmart

Vizzy: Unbelievable !

Yer dead right there Vizzy

Not that long ago we had that staunch Public Servant Ms Mary Harney,spouting nonsense about the country needing 200,000 immigrants each year to just keep us afloat.

Whilst we have one section of the DSP attempting to do a "Boy with his finger in the Dyke" (:eek: ) on it we also have entire sections whose efforts are devoted to ensuring we present a caring sharing Social Welfare face to a wide ranging and well versed collection of shadies...oh and you`re SO correct,that includes the native Gael...:D

fliball123

feicim wrote: »

Do you count sky tv, tv license, cigarettes, holidays, going out etc as essential or non-essential?

I believe you count these as non-essential for the unemployed, or do you apply a different standard to yourself?

I have basic NTL and regardless of what luxuries I have I work damn fcuking hard for them as I said I had no holiday last year and no prospect this year and I have not been out since xmas...As I stated I dont see why my taxes should pay for anyone else luxuries, holidays or nights out when I can ill afford the same even do I am working 50 odd hours a week

fliball123

feicim wrote: »

Its called "social welfare" (man cannot live on bread alone).

You come across as a typical Irish, know-it-all begrudger.

Is it begrudery or an attempt to bring people back to the real world. I do not understand the opposition here. My take is to put people on a credit card system that will firstly stop money going out of the country, secondly it would cut down on fraud and thirdly it would put an end to people spending on items such as smokes, alcohol, going abroad and basically p1ssing the money away..

So let me ask you is it fair that some people can do this whilst on the dole when a fair majority of people working are struggling to even make ends meet..

I never said everyone on the dole was the same and in a previous post I suggested that people should get paid until their stamps run out then be put on a credit card system...

fliball123

KidKeith89 wrote: »

If someone genuinely can't get a job - and let's face it, someone who's spent the last decade or so doing the job they love and spent years specialising isn't gonna go out and work in McDonald's - should be supported by the state. If they've paid tax for the last few years and are expected to cough up billions of euros for the bankers' and politicians' idiocy, why shouldn't they be supported, for at least a while? Saying that the social welfare they receive should not be used to buy luxuries is stupid; we all need a life otherwise we'd crack up! People should be more focused on NOT bailing out the banks with tens of billions, rather than on someone who's lost their job and is claiming less than 200e a week

So those working and struggling ...do you not think we are near to cracking aswell....you only have to look at the tax revenue from people paying tax..Its down by a hell of a lot...more and more people are joining the dole or heading abroad which were working...So what have to look forward too??? another healthy tax increase by the end of the year and not to mention a definate increase in my mortgage due to the ECB rate rising... Look I sympthise with all on the dole especially those made redundant in the last couple of years...As I pointed out we need to change to a style like Germany..first 6 months at near what a person was being paid and then halved every 6 months...and when someones stamps have been paid back ...Then on to a credit card system. I have never once stated that the dole should be taken away..I have said numerous times that if we continue to pay so much we the tax payer should be entitled to say. This money should not go out of the country, should not be spent on luxuries, when the working man cannot afford them ...its not begrudery its an attempt to bring people back to the reality that is Ireland Inc 2011

fliball123

Amateurish wrote: »

Hi all, first post on Boards simply because i felt i had to. To put it into context for you I'm a mature student on a social failure payment at the moment after working twenty odd years and employing up to 3 people at times. Apologies in advance if I stray from the rules a little but it's my first day...
O/P You've a master's? Which you put yourself through 7 years of college to get? No you didnt ... I paid for the subsidised roads you travelled on. I paid for the subsidised buses you probably used. I paid for the subsidised lecturers who taught you and the gardai who protected you ..... I could go on and on couldn't I? don't bother cos I accept that society works better when we help each other. It's ok you dont owe me anything.
You know someone who's better off than you while in receipt of some payments? So why not give up work and go for those payments yourself? I'll bet it's because you like working and would feel completely demeaned to sign on even if its from central government money you have paid into over the years. I bet about 400K people feel exactly the same but you would like to put them onto an expenses type scheme and really **** into their coffee. People are entitled to dignity. If not then you owe me a lot of money.

Hang on there fella did I not pay tax during the 7 years..Answer yes I did so how did you pay for me. I have always paid tax so your argument is null and void, I believe you have to pay for the public transport, I also use my car which not only did I pay tax on the fuel, I paid road tolls, I paid car insurance, I paid VAT on my car.

As for your suggestion about joining the dole I may not have a choice, but heres the kicker if I was on the dole for more than 3 months I would be gone out of this country as that is my nature I wouldnt hang around..

People are entitled to dignity so whats your point that if they were told they could no longer spend their money on alcohol or other luxuries that this demeans them...The dole should be means of a last resort. As stated now on at least 5 posts. If anyone was working they should be entitled to be paid until their stamps are paid back then credit card system.. Now I appreciate that work is hard to find, but when you hear about people turning down salaries of 28k, what do you do???

remember 3 into 5 doesnt fit ...thats how much more we are paying out than taking in...More and more tax payers are leaving here as I say you work your B0llocks off , come home knackered, you check your wallet and you 30 quid for the week after all the bills are gone...and then you see next door on the dole and fecking off out in his new clothes for a nice meal...But no there is nothing wrong with that as they are ENTITLED TO IT...

RichardAnd

fliball123 wrote: »

remember 3 into 5 doesnt fit ...thats how much more we are paying out than taking in...More and more tax payers are leaving here as I say you work your B0llocks off , come home knackered, you check your wallet and you 30 quid for the week after all the bills are gone...and then you see next door on the dole and fecking off out in his new clothes for a nice meal...But no there is nothing wrong with that as they are ENTITLED TO IT...

I would imagine that going out for a meal in new cloths is a very, VERY rare part of a weeks routine for most people on the dole. If indeed your neighbour is on the dole, he must have some other source of income that allows him to do that because they dole simply isn't high enough to allow the manner of lifestyle you've described in your posts.

fliball123

RichardAnd wrote: »

I would imagine that going out for a meal in new cloths is a very, VERY rare part of a weeks routine for most people on the dole. If indeed your neighbour is on the dole, he must have some other source of income that allows him to do that because they dole simply isn't high enough to allow the manner of lifestyle you've described in your posts.

Listen I am stating this as its happening here..I also see my Nephew on the dole claiming and he does absolutely fcuk all..he is a lazy litte cnut being honest...and I make sure every time I see him I tell him so and his response is...sure whats the point in getting a job..As I have said numerous times I dont doubt that there are people on the dole willing to work but I find that the majority will only do so in their own terms..ala I wont work there...or I wont do that for a living or I will not work for that amount...I hope that the current gov come up with this Database of current unemployed and with the current jobs availability and if someone who is a fit for a job doesnt take it then their dole should be cut to shreds

RichardAnd

fliball123 wrote: »

Listen I am stating this as its happening here..I also see my Nephew on the dole claiming and he does absolutely fcuk all..he is a lazy litte cnut being honest...and I make sure every time I see him I tell him so and his response is...sure whats the point in getting a job..As I have said numerous times I dont doubt that there are people on the dole willing to work but I find that the majority will only do so in their own terms..ala I wont work there...or I wont do that for a living or I will not work for that amount...I hope that the current gov come up with this Database of current unemployed and with the current jobs availability and if someone who is a fit for a job doesnt take it then their dole should be cut to shreds

I'm not saying you're lying, I have a first cousin who has been on the dole for 3 years nows for reasons not unlike your nephew's. I'm simply making the point that I find it extremely hard to believe that your neighbour is living as you say he is on the dole, he must have another means of income (non-legal) that you don't know about.

dan_d

AlekSmart wrote: »

Whilst we have one section of the DSP attempting to do a "Boy with his finger in the Dyke" (:eek: ) on it we also have entire sections whose efforts are devoted to ensuring we present a caring sharing Social Welfare face to a wide ranging and well versed collection of shadies...oh and you`re SO correct,that includes the native Gael...:D

After the conversation I had with the SW this morning, (after 5 days of trying to get through to them and being sent from Billy to Jack and back again)...."caring" is not the word I'd use for the face of SW. More like "rude and inefficient". Regardless of the fact that I was being extremely pleasant, and that the mess up was on their part.:mad::mad:

But maybe I'm just being silly expecting something as stupid as common politeness.....

fliball123

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm not saying you're lying, I have a first cousin who has been on the dole for 3 years nows for reasons not unlike your nephew's. I'm simply making the point that I find it extremely hard to believe that your neighbour is living as you say he is on the dole, he must have another means of income (non-legal) that you don't know about.

The guy is claiming and well he is an out of work sparks so I would hedge a bet that he is on the black but he doesnt say ..he says he gets his money from the dole..And this makes my point a bit more realistic...If someone had a credit card as their only means of paying and someone makes a payment via cash ...surely the social are entitled to ask where they got that cash?

Geuze

Unemployment payment systems compared across the OECD, 2007:

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/38/16/44508994.xls

later12

fliball123 wrote: »

If someone had a credit card as their only means of paying and someone makes a payment via cash ...surely the social are entitled to ask where they got that cash?

Not at all. It's perfectly reasonable (more importantly, legal) to be gifted small cash payments on one-off bases, or physical gifts, such as a car, or ongoing non-financial allowances, such as free accommodation. The SW office only assess income and significant assets from which one might derive income.

dan_d

fliball123 wrote: »

And this makes my point a bit more realistic...If someone had a credit card as their only means of paying and someone makes a payment via cash ...surely the social are entitled to ask where they got that cash?

They are entitled to ask, but they don't. And unless they go through somebody's bank statements, they're not going to know what a person gets paid outside their SW payments. And they don't do that - bar in extreme cases (not even sure they do it then).

I'd imagine your neighbour got a redundancy payment - quite a substantial one - possibly is doing cash jobs and is getting SW. I'm not saying it's right, but it's likely that's what going on there. It's highly unlikely he's living the high life on 188eur a week and nothing else.

Why don't you ask? He seems to be fairly happy to chat about his lifestyle...

angelfire9

My grandmother died & left me a small inheritance and my father gives me a few quid every couple of weeks in return for doubt things at home for him (like fixing the computer or doing his tax returns) (things I've always done for free til I lost my job)
Most of the time I'm convinced my dad makes up jobs for me to do cos he knows I wouldn't accept handouts
Am I supposed to either refuse these "gifts" or declare them as income??

Not everyone with cash in hand are doing nixers

HellFireClub

I was on the dole until recently and I'm now working for myself. My sole mission now is to avoid (legally), paying a single cent extra tax than I might have to, either in VAT, PAYE, PRSI, CT or whatever.

I refuse to pay an extra cent to bail out basket case banks that are all private enterprises and should be subject to the same rules of capitalism as every other person or business in the state.

And for the avoidance of doubt, that means that in relation to my personal outgoings, I will seek out any services that I need on the "grey" market, which is not illegal, (it's only illegal for a taker of my money to not declare it for income purposes and as far as I'm concerned, that is their own issue, not mine), if I need a carpentry or plumbing job done, it'll be cash into the hand for the best priced nixer that I can find and keeping every cent of tax that I can, out of the hands of the state.

This will sound like a gombeen attitude to some, but to me, the gombeens are the people who are giving this state tax income to p*ss away all over the place on basket case banks that should have been put out of their misery three years ago.

AlekSmart

fliball123 wrote: »

.As I stated I dont see why my taxes should pay for anyone else luxuries, holidays or nights out when I can ill afford the same even do I am working 50 odd hours a week

Well now fliball....May I have your name and address please so that we can institute legal proceedings against you and your employer for contravening the Working Time Act !!

Yep...attempting to work 50 Hours a week is ILLEGAL in this country,you risk a fine of up to €1,500 and/or a prison sentence as does your employer......

Perhaps Mr Noonan will address this nonsensical crap in his "Jobs Budget"....(Probably increase the fine to €15,000 :rolleyes: )

HellFireClub

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well now fliball....May I have your name and address please so that we can institute legal proceedings against you and your employer for contravening the Working Time Act !!

Yep...attempting to work 50 Hours a week is ILLEGAL in this country,you risk a fine of up to €1,500 and/or a prison sentence as does your employer......

Perhaps Mr Noonan will address this nonsensical crap in his "Jobs Budget"....(Probably increase the fine to €15,000 :rolleyes: )

I take it you've never worked for yourself, with your 39 hour WW head on you. :rolleyes:

AlekSmart

HellFireClub wrote: »

I take it you've never worked for yourself, with your 39 hour WW head on you. :rolleyes:

Nope HFC,you're right there...cos if the lad was self-employed the WTA would'nt apply to him.

However once one dons the mantle of the "employed" one must not work more than 48Hours averaged over 17(?) weeks..Thats the Law !

What I find somewhat incredible is any Government believing such legislation will do anything to encourage better productivity,work ethic,or anything positive...instead it only serves to make a spell on the scratcher look inviting !

Head The Wall

AlekSmart wrote: »

Nope HFC,you're right there...cos if the lad was self-employed the WTA would'nt apply to him.

However once one dons the mantle of the "employed" one must not work more than 48Hours averaged over 17(?) weeks..Thats the Law !

What I find somewhat incredible is any Government believing such legislation will do anything to encourage better productivity,work ethic,or anything positive...instead it only serves to make a spell on the scratcher look inviting !

You're wrong, firstly you can work a 60 hour week as long as you work within the limits the following week. Secondly the reference period can last up to 26 weeks.

Self employed truck drivers have to adhere to the WTD, this of course is because they can enforce it through tachographs, most other self employed would be exempt though

AlekSmart

Head The Wall wrote: »

You're wrong, firstly you can work a 60 hour week as long as you work within the limits the following week. Secondly the reference period can last up to 26 weeks.

Self employed truck drivers have to adhere to the WTD, this of course is because they can enforce it through tachographs, most other self employed would be exempt though

But the OP appeares to suggest he's working over 50 hours weekly,the average figure must remain at 48 hours over the agreed reference period,which must be agreed with the Department in advance.

My bad on the self-employed truck driver,although,from experience many are of the impression that the WTD does NOT apply to them,reinforced by a widespread lack of understanding of the Working Time vs Driving Time issue.

As I see it the WTD`s main function in the transport sector is to ensnare the Taxi driving fraternity a bit more firmly into the accountability net

Head The Wall

Anybody driving for a living should have to use tachographs to level the playing field, especially tractors.

When the WTD was implemented and later pushed on by the RSA self employed drivers were exempt, this has since changed which is probably why there is confusion.

My gripe is they are enforcing this on truck drivers because it is easy to enforce although they already have the drivers hours to watch. What other sectors are they enforcing this legislation in?

fliball123

later10 wrote: »

Not at all. It's perfectly reasonable (more importantly, legal) to be gifted small cash payments on one-off bases, or physical gifts, such as a car, or ongoing non-financial allowances, such as free accommodation. The SW office only assess income and significant assets from which one might derive income.

I never said that it wasnt illegal but surely the person must prove where they got the cash to stop the black market?

fliball123

AlekSmart wrote: »

Well now fliball....May I have your name and address please so that we can institute legal proceedings against you and your employer for contravening the Working Time Act !!

Yep...attempting to work 50 Hours a week is ILLEGAL in this country,you risk a fine of up to €1,500 and/or a prison sentence as does your employer......

Perhaps Mr Noonan will address this nonsensical crap in his "Jobs Budget"....(Probably increase the fine to €15,000 :rolleyes: )

Whatever ...I only get paid for 40 and the company has done nothing wrong but my work load is that heavy and if I dont get it done the company suffers and we are at already near breaking point

dan_d

AlekSmart wrote: »

Nope HFC,you're right there...cos if the lad was self-employed the WTA would'nt apply to him.

However once one dons the mantle of the "employed" one must not work more than 48Hours averaged over 17(?) weeks..Thats the Law !

What I find somewhat incredible is any Government believing such legislation will do anything to encourage better productivity,work ethic,or anything positive...instead it only serves to make a spell on the scratcher look inviting !

You've obviously never experienced the construction industry...

50 hour week is the minimum expected. Hours are 8-6pm, 20 mins for a snatched lunch if you're lucky.

Overtime as necessary, don't expect reimbursement, it's your job. On the kind of pay that would be considered "low" by certain members of society (35 - 40k - I'd take that again in a heartbeat...)

Anything else is a cushy number beside that. Always assuming I could manage to find anything else...

Gumbo

dan_d wrote: »

You've obviously never experienced the construction industry...

50 hour week is the minimum expected. Hours are 8-6pm, 20 mins for a snatched lunch if you're lucky.

Overtime as necessary, don't expect reimbursement, it's your job. On the kind of pay that would be considered "low" by certain members of society (35 - 40k - I'd take that again in a heartbeat...)

Anything else is a cushy number beside that. Always assuming I could manage to find anything else...

Strange, I worked directly inthe construction game from 2002-2009 and never once did I have to work 8-6 with only a 20 min lunch.

Your employer is breaking the law and exploiting his staff if this is true of course.

I've had to work till 6 or 7 many a time or come in and 7 to facilitate a concrete delivery or window delivery from the north but these allowances always helped you out later in the day as your boss mite say you head now, thanks for his morning.

I have never ever in any project not gotten a breakfast break around 10.30 and this still happens on any sites remaining today along with a full lunch hour.

SupaNova

My dad worked in construction all his life and the most typical day was 8-5, break of 15-20 mins in the morning and half hour for lunch.

Balmed Out

Most people I know who are self employed or run a business all seem to always do more then 50 hours a week, same for a lot of people in large companies who are expected to get the job done regardless of how much unpaid overtime they put in.

CathyMoran

From what I can see the only way to have a working week shorter than 40 hours is to work part time at the moment

westies4ever

kceire wrote: »

Strange, I worked directly inthe construction game from 2002-2009 and never once did I have to work 8-6 with only a 20 min lunch.

Your employer is breaking the law and exploiting his staff if this is true of course.

I've had to work till 6 or 7 many a time or come in and 7 to facilitate a concrete delivery or window delivery from the north but these allowances always helped you out later in the day as your boss mite say you head now, thanks for his morning.

I have never ever in any project not gotten a breakfast break around 10.30 and this still happens on any sites remaining today along with a full lunch hour.

It depends on what area of construction you are in. My husband (a site manager) is in fast track shop fitting. Very tight deadlines and profit margins. Typical day is 8am-6pm; a snatched lunch on site, after hours calls, weekend work, late night hours etc. up until 2 years ago he got a good deal for this, €60k pa, laptop, phone, van, mileage, expenses. Now its a basic salary of €50k and no vehicle or mileage.

A few weeks ago he was finishing a restaurant and the gas line was being put in. It had to be done at night to minimise obsturction to the street outside.Two days in a row it was 8am-10pm and the third day it was 8am to midnight and back in at 8am the following morning. Thats doesnt include his 90 minute commute. He's fully aware that his employer is breaking the law but in the shop fitting business that is just the way it is. A lot of shops/restaurants etc want the work done after hours as they are not prepared to close down to facilitate work. The attitude is 'if you don't like it, someone else will do it'.

Gumbo

westies4ever wrote: »

A lot of shops/restaurants etc want the work done after hours as they are not prepared to close down to facilitate work. The attitude is 'if you don't like it, someone else will do it'.

thats true but ive dealt with alot of "big" shops in this country such as dunnes, tesco etc an although you would have to do certain items at off peak hours such as road closures and mains line connections, this was always built into the contract and tender documents and thus the main contractor got out of hours rates for this and included in the price is overtime/out of hour payments for their staff. whether or not tha contractor passed on these payments to his staff is another days work though.

ive been on sites where we had the whole day off as we know we would be on site from 5pm to 10pm with no breaks etc.

erictheviking1

dan_d wrote: »

You've obviously never experienced the construction industry...

50 hour week is the minimum expected. Hours are 8-6pm, 20 mins for a snatched lunch if you're lucky.

Overtime as necessary, don't expect reimbursement, it's your job. On the kind of pay that would be considered "low" by certain members of society (35 - 40k - I'd take that again in a heartbeat...)

Anything else is a cushy number beside that. Always assuming I could manage to find anything else...

I spent many years working on sites, very,very hard work and long hours.
usually worked 8-6 but we always got a decent lunch break and overtime.
I find it very hard to believe any boss on a building site would dare try to get builders to work for free.
Trust me, if a boss expected builders/labourers to work for free he would have to ring an ambulance for himself in advance before he said "its your job":D. He'd be kicked up and down the site.

AlekSmart

westies4ever wrote: »

He's fully aware that his employer is breaking the law but in the shop fitting business that is just the way it is. A lot of shops/restaurants etc want the work done after hours as they are not prepared to close down to facilitate work. The attitude is 'if you don't like it, someone else will do it'.

That bolded sentance just about ends the discussion IMO.

It also serves to underline the total futility of introducing rafts of leglislation such as the WTA when sheer goddam reality tells us that it`s counter-productive,deeply unpopular and next to impossible to police.

Head the Wall :When the WTD was implemented and later pushed on by the RSA self employed drivers were exempt, this has since changed which is probably why there is confusion.

As HTW points out,it`s rather typical of Irish Administrative procedures to get all gung-ho with those sectors like HGV/Coach operations which are easy to tower over whilst maintaining a far lower profile with the "difficult" sectors such as construction.

Tisserand

Going back to the point of having a 'credit' card system for people claiming benefit, this should also apply to people who go sick from work and claim sickness or disability benefit. This might stop working people who are milking the system from going 'sick' more often if they were going to be told how they were to spend their illness benefit. What should affect one benefit should affect ALL, straight across people. So, all you people fortunate to be working, suggest you take out insurance for being out of work due to illness, just in case somebody has the 'bright' idea to bring in this as legislation.................