Should there be UN intervention in Syria?

gurramok

With reports of up to 50 unarmed protesters shot dead by Syrian state forces, should the world(UN) do something to protect civilians just like in Libya?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12846856 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/23/syrian-police-shoot-protesters
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/syrian-protests-troops-kill-deraa?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

Considering the country's proximity to Israel, what can be done to help civilians being slaughtered by state forces?

questionmark?

gurramok wrote: »

With reports of up to 50 unarmed protesters shot dead by Syrian state forces, should the world(UN) do something to protect civilians just like in Libya?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12846856 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/23/syrian-police-shoot-protesters
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/syrian-protests-troops-kill-deraa?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

Considering the country's proximity to Israel, what can be done to help civilians being slaughtered by state forces?

Unarmed protesters have been killed in many countries around the middle east/North africa. What made Libya different is that it descended into civil war with Gaddafii threating mass killings of those that opposed him. Also the use of tanks, artillery and aircraft were condemned by the UN and the Arab League.

We can only wait and see what the UN and the Arab League have to say. Iran must be watching on with interest.

Cookie_Monster

Do they have vast quantities of oil that needs "protecting"?

Cause if not I don't really see the UN or NATO pushing for anything.

gurramok

questionmark? wrote: »

Unarmed protesters have been killed in many countries around the middle east/North africa. What made Libya different is that it descended into civil war with Gaddafii threating mass killings of those that opposed him. Also the use of tanks, artillery and aircraft were condemned by the UN and the Arab League.

We can only wait and see what the UN and the Arab League have to say. Iran must be watching on with interest.

Syria has past form on slaughtering its own people using elite army units(Hama in the early 80's). The army does a Bloody Sunday on protesters here http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/mar/24/syrian-soldiers-protesters-deraa-video?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

The UN has condemned what has happened in Syria also.http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=37871&Cr=syria&Cr1=

If the slaughter continues and spreads in this case especially where the opposition do not have arms, what can be done to save democracy?

Euroland

gurramok wrote: »

With reports of up to 50 unarmed protesters shot dead by Syrian state forces, should the world(UN) do something to protect civilians just like in Libya?http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12846856 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/23/syrian-police-shoot-protesters
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/22/syrian-protests-troops-kill-deraa?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

Considering the country's proximity to Israel, what can be done to help civilians being slaughtered by state forces?

No we better focus on the US and Israel war crimes

questionmark?

gurramok wrote: »

Syria has past form on slaughtering its own people using elite army units(Hama in the early 80's). The army does a Bloody Sunday on protesters here http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2011/mar/24/syrian-soldiers-protesters-deraa-video?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

The UN has condemned what has happened in Syria also.http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=37871&Cr=syria&Cr1=

If the slaughter continues and spreads in this case especially where the opposition do not have arms, what can be done to save democracy?

I do think it is time for the Arab league to actually stand up and be counted and stop sitting on the fence. Qater for its small size has sent warplanes to help patrol the no fly zone over Libya. The UN cant jump in yet as it would be seeing as getting involved to soon unless their is a clear case that they could prevent mass civilian deaths and/or genocide.

Euroland wrote: »

No we better focus on the US and Israel war crimes

No we wont stop trying to de-rail a thread.

The US are involved in the Libya no fly zone as are the UK, Britain, France, Denmark, Spain, Italy, Qater. Operations are being facilitated with the corporation of other countries such as Cyprus, Malta, Greece and Egypt among others.
Should we now go ahead and investigate all of these countries for war crimes!

Euroland

questionmark? wrote: »

No we wont stop trying to de-rail a thread.

The US are involved in the Libya no fly zone as are the UK, Britain, France, Denmark, Spain, Italy, Qater. Operations are being facilitated with the corporation of other countries such as Cyprus, Malta, Greece and Egypt among others.
Should we now go ahead and investigate all of these countries for war crimes!

The main war criminals are the US and Israel. However, I agree that there are some other countries (i.e. UK), which should also be brought to justice.

PatsytheNazi

Euroland wrote: »

No we better focus on the US and Israel war crimes

My very own thoughts. No one has broken and ignored more UN resolutions than the Zionazi's.

Colmo52

Have they oil??

mike65

Why do these thread gets so retarded so quickly? (Syria has little oil for those who care)

Syria is particuarly tricky as it has what is in many respects a client state - Lebanon. Syrian forces only pulled out fully in 2005 but the negative influence is still there with their support of Hizballah. If the Assad regime fell its very difficult to know what the regional impact would be, a country that abutts Iraq, Lebanon and Israel while being very friendly with Iran is important beyond its "innate strenghts", which are few.

Manic Moran

The two main issues are

(1) The Syrian issue is still at the level of an internal security crackdown. Heavy, but not exactly unresticted warfare against the country's nationals. (Hama would have been a different issue, but that's long past now).

(2) Not many countries left to do much about it. The US would have to send another one or two carriers, and I'm not sure they have them to spare. The French, Spanish and Italian carriers are already busy off Libya. The British don't have carriers any more. The Israelis could do something, but I doubt that would be particularly popular. About the only crowd left are the Turks, who have a relatively capable armed force (Assuming they're still letting the Israelis fix their equipment) and have bases close enough to do something. But the Turks haven't shown much inclination to get involved in the far more extreme case of Libya, so are highly unlikely to annoy their neighbours for a lesser offence.

So what's the point in discussing it in the UN beyond wagging fingers?

NTM

gurramok

Manic Moran wrote: »

The two main issues are

(1) The Syrian issue is still at the level of an internal security crackdown. Heavy, but not exactly unresticted warfare against the country's nationals. (Hama would have been a different issue, but that's long past now).

We'll see as its t he start. Its very similar to the other states where unarmed protesters where gunned down at the beginning(Tunisia, Egypt and Libya) and then it spread over a few weeks to other population centres.

Manic Moran wrote: »

(2) Not many countries left to do much about it. The US would have to send another one or two carriers, and I'm not sure they have them to spare. The French, Spanish and Italian carriers are already busy off Libya. The British don't have carriers any more. The Israelis could do something, but I doubt that would be particularly popular. About the only crowd left are the Turks, who have a relatively capable armed force (Assuming they're still letting the Israelis fix their equipment) and have bases close enough to do something. But the Turks haven't shown much inclination to get involved in the far more extreme case of Libya, so are highly unlikely to annoy their neighbours for a lesser offence.

So what's the point in discussing it in the UN beyond wagging fingers?

NTM

How about US bases in Iraq as well as Turkey? Iraq borders Syria and the US could give a supporting role with Turkey at the helm? Think of Arabs rescuing fellow Arabs to make it popular.

Euroland

Maybe to Yemen instead?


Yemen forces clash over Saleh before Friday protest

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/24/us-yemen-idUSTRE72M92520110324

(Reuters) - Presidential guards loyal to Ali Abdullah Saleh clashed with army units backing opposition groups demanding the Yemeni president's ouster.

Western countries and neighboring oil giant Saudi Arabia are worried about a power vacuum if Saleh goes that could embolden al Qaeda, which has entrenched itself in the mountainous state.


"We've had a good working relationship with President Saleh. He's been an important ally in the counter-terrorism arena," U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Wednesday. "I think we will basically just continue to watch the situation. We haven't done any post-Saleh planning," he said.

The country of 23 million faces challenges of poverty, water supply, dwindling oil reserves and lack of central government control. Northern Shi'ites have taken up arms against Saleh, and southerners dream of a separate state.


Yemen lies on key shipping routes and borders the world's leading oil exporter Saudi Arabia. Al Qaeda has used Yemen as a base to plot attacks in both Saudi Arabia and the United States, and both countries have bet on Saleh to contain the group.

Overheal

Regarding Yemen, the people are attacking the government? Not the other way around?

Still forgetting the key difference here that not only did Libya have a violent crackdown on protestors but now they've given the protestors a chase, and are rolling across the country with a mission for house to house murder and cleansing.

gurramok

Overheal wrote: »

Regarding Yemen, the people are attacking the government? Not the other way around?

Still forgetting the key difference here that not only did Libya have a violent crackdown on protestors but now they've given the protestors a chase, and are rolling across the country with a mission for house to house murder and cleansing.

The Libyan UN resolution was to protect civilians from state forces. In Syria we have the first massacre of civilians along with repression from a dictator. The parallels are there or is it only when the democracy protesters take up arms that there is concern?!(Libya)

gurramok

Protests and killings by Syrian state forces are starting to spread to other areas. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12858972

I just wonder if this is the start of a sectarian breakdown in the country as the rulers and key sections of the security forces are from a minority Shia sect rather than from the majority Sunni's who comprise about 75% of the population.

dsmythy

Have the Syrians asked for help yet?

NeedaNewName

dsmythy wrote: »

Have the Syrians asked for help yet?

A couple of them have on twitter.

Denerick

If the Syrians begin a revolution and lay claim to one half of the country and subsequently face an onslaught from a huge modern army... Perhaps then it would be time for some variation of 'liberal interventionism'.

But I doubt thats really the intent here. A tiny minority of people have convinced themselves that the intervention in Libya is entirely about oil, content, it seems, to watch as hundreds of thousands face probable massacre as the metephorical barbarians lay siege to Rome.

I don't think any of us have grasped the true transformation gripping the Arab world at present. If Syria does an Egypt/Tunisia... our grandchildren may just end up living in a marginally less ****ty world after all.

Denerick

gurramok wrote: »

Protests and killings by Syrian state forces are starting to spread to other areas. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12858972

I just wonder if this is the start of a sectarian breakdown in the country as the rulers and key sections of the security forces are from a minority Shia sect rather than from the majority Sunni's who comprise about 75% of the population.

And don't forget ethnic Kurds. As if the Middle East weren't complicated enough without throwing ethnic conflicts into the mix.

gurramok

Good article i think. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.html?_r=1&hp

Sectarian tensions did not motivate this conflict, not initially. But they have begun to emerge. Mr. Tabler and Joshua M. Landis, director of the Center for Middle East Studies at the University of Oklahoma, said the demonstrators had started chanting: “No to Iran, to Hezbollah. We want a leader who fears God.”

That, they said, is a direct reference to the Alawite faith of the leadership.

“In the minds of the religious minorities, this evokes the specter of sectarian battle,” Mr. Landis said.

Dara’a, a drought-stricken section of Syria’s farm belt, is an unlikely place for Syria to face its own version of the uprisings that have rocked the region. Dara’a is in a region is known as loyal to the Assad family, Mr. Tabler said. The area tends to be more tribal and is not fond of the more religious conservative Sunnis in the north, he said.

“What makes this all surprising at this point is this is an area of Syria that is traditionally pro regime,” Mr. Tabler said. “So what the regime has been doing is suppressing a major Sunni base, all because a group of kids wrote graffiti on the wall.”

gurramok

Here's some videos of the unrest, they're getting angrier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oraas1O7DIc&feature=player_embedded (AlJazeera report)
Statue of Assad been attacked and shots heard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9flGn0y2_d0&feature=player_embedded
Billboard of Assad been defaced to the approval of a crowd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9_BOjkD2wY&feature=player_embedded

You can hear gunfire firing at unarmed civilians here. This is Assad massacring his own people Gadaffi style. (Do not watch if you are upset by wounded people been carried back from the front line)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sna1kykqUyk

Most of these are from the compilation of a blog on http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/latest-updates-on-libyan-war-and-mideast-protests-2/?ref=africa (as of writing)

Inverse to the power of one!

Er....slow down there lads, the Syrian opposition haven't yet taken to calling Assad to step down, it probably will come to this, but until then we have yet to see how the situation develops.

I don't know how savvy Assad is as politician, but if he's smart he'll seize the situation, call off the dogs and get moving on reforms before the point of no return.

I doubt it will happen, but up until that point there's no need for the UN yet.

And for those complaining about the US and oil and all the usual......welcome to realpolitik....wither you like it or not the fact that countries within the UN can combine self interest in the form of Oil Security with an effort to protect the people of Libya is progress.

In the past no one would have given a damn for Democracy within Libya and only those with the means would have intervened with more interest in installing a new pliable dictator then the welfare of the people.

It will never be perfect, but we live in a world where nations now see their self interest in working with each other, it was only a cold war ago where the most cynical and nastiest views were followed alone.

Euroland

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Do they have vast quantities of oil that needs "protecting"?

Cause if not I don't really see the UN or NATO pushing for anything.

No Syria is not rich in Oil, so there won’t be the UN/NATO invasion of Syria.

joemalola

I would like to clarify a few things:

1. Saudi Arabia has been paying over millions of dollars for people to cause trouble in Syria. They were payed to import weapons, and start shooting at everyone.

2. Syria is a very peaceful country. The protests that are going on are NOT pro-democracy protests, but terrorists. Ask yourself, why would Assad send tanks into cities to kill innocent people? Wouldn't soldiers be enough? Well they aren't. The weapons that were imported from Saudi Arabia are used to crush the army of Syria, so the Muslim Brotherhood can move in.

Assad has not declared war on his people. Rather, he has declared war on terrorism. In the mid 1970s, a similar protest happened. Only that time, 3-4 thousand people were killed. That was a past attempt at destroying Syria, but it failed.

We, as Syrians are on the brink of peace again in Syria, but we are worried about the U.S.A. moving in. We're worried that if they intervene, the Muslim Brotherhood will move in, like they did in Libya. Muslim fanatics DO want you dead, but Syrian Muslims don't care.

Personally, I don't like Israel, but I respect them. I believe that Israel is a very peaceful country, but they are targeting the wrong people.

I'm a Syrian Christian American, fyi. I have strong connections with Syria, and I have the real sources of what's happening.

http://www.syria-news.com/

If you can't read Arabic. copy and paste the article to this:

www.translate.google.com

Peace.

Jonny7

joemalola wrote: »

I would like to clarify a few things:

1. Saudi Arabia has been paying over millions of dollars for people to cause trouble in Syria. They were payed to import weapons, and start shooting at everyone.

2. Syria is a very peaceful country. The protests that are going on are NOT pro-democracy protests, but terrorists. Ask yourself, why would Assad send tanks into cities to kill innocent people? Wouldn't soldiers be enough? Well they aren't. The weapons that were imported from Saudi Arabia are used to crush the army of Syria, so the Muslim Brotherhood can move in.

Assad has not declared war on his people. Rather, he has declared war on terrorism. In the mid 1970s, a similar protest happened. Only that time, 3-4 thousand people were killed. That was a past attempt at destroying Syria, but it failed.

We, as Syrians are on the brink of peace again in Syria, but we are worried about the U.S.A. moving in. We're worried that if they intervene, the Muslim Brotherhood will move in, like they did in Libya. Muslim fanatics DO want you dead, but Syrian Muslims don't care.

Personally, I don't like Israel, but I respect them. I believe that Israel is a very peaceful country, but they are targeting the wrong people.

I'm a Syrian Christian American, fyi. I have strong connections with Syria, and I have the real sources of what's happening.

http://www.syria-news.com/

If you can't read Arabic. copy and paste the article to this:

www.translate.google.com

Peace.

Yeah and I'm from a place called planet earth, and I have the real sources on leaders, junta's and ruling parties who would rather concoct utter tripe and kill their own people than leave power.

Nodin

joemalola wrote: »

I would like to clarify a few things:

1. Saudi Arabia has been paying over millions of dollars for people to cause trouble in Syria. They were payed to import weapons, and start shooting at everyone.

Not much evidence of weapons in the hands of protesters.

joemalola wrote: »

2. Syria is a very peaceful country. The protests that are going on are NOT pro-democracy protests, but terrorists. Ask yourself, why would Assad send tanks into cities to kill innocent people? Wouldn't soldiers be enough? Well they aren't. The weapons that were imported from Saudi Arabia are used to crush the army of Syria, so the Muslim Brotherhood can move in.

Why would Assad send in tanks to kill innocent people? Well, when the secret police didn't work the last time, thats exactly what his father did, killing around 30,000 people.

joemalola wrote: »

Personally, I don't like Israel, but I respect them. I believe that Israel is a very peaceful country,

Good for you. I don't, meself. I suppose somebody put that and the mention of "christian" in the memo to avoid alienating the yanks.

wes

Intervention is always a tricky thing, and I think they got it largely right in the case of Libya.

However, in the case of Syria (or Yemen or Bahrain), is there anyone capable of actually helping the people at this point? Its seems that far to many countries are simply unable to intervene, or perhaps I am wrong in that.

I wouldn't be against intervention in theory in Syria or elsewhere, if who ever under took it, could do it well, and most importantly that the people there want it.

Manic Moran

joemalola wrote: »

Assad has not declared war on his people. Rather, he has declared war on terrorism. In the mid 1970s, a similar protest happened. Only that time, 3-4 thousand people were killed. That was a past attempt at destroying Syria, but it failed.

"Only 3-4,000" is relatively substantial.

And according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

may be a bit on the low side.

NTM

CrackisWhack

Would the Syrian army be better equipped and prepared than the Libyans?

OS119

CrackisWhack wrote: »

Would the Syrian army be better equipped and prepared than the Libyans?

yes.

there are three very good reasons why Syria is unlikely to get the Libya treatment: by and large the method it has chosen, so far, to supress the demostrations is not conducive to air attacks, secondly the capabilities of its AD network mean that any campaign would probably result in a greater NATO casualty rate than in Libya, and thirdly that those countries who might otherwise seeriously look at taking action in Syria are busy elsewhere.

people might whinge at 'hypocracy', but only an idiot chooses a task that they know to be harder, costlier, and with less chance of success over one they believe to be easy and cheap...

Jonny7

The 120 soldiers killed in an ambush in Jisr al-Shughour, its looking more likely they were shot for mutiny.

nacho libre

wes wrote: »

Intervention is always a tricky thing, and I think they got it largely right in the case of Libya.

However, in the case of Syria (or Yemen or Bahrain), is there anyone capable of actually helping the people at this point? Its seems that far to many countries are simply unable to intervene, or perhaps I am wrong in that.

I wouldn't be against intervention in theory in Syria or elsewhere, if who ever under took it, could do it well, and most importantly that the people there want it.

I can't see Russia ever agreeing to it because it has the potential to lead to a wider conflagration. Also America is unlikely to press for intervention.
As military intervention in Syria could turn into a protracted conflict, with a potentially much higher fatality rate than in Libya. Obama could not politically survive A third war like that.

Nodin

Syrian security forces have cracked down on anti-government protests across the country, killing 100 people in the city of Hama alone, reports say.
Witnesses said tanks moved into Hama at dawn, shelling civilians. Other towns also erupted in violence in one of the bloodiest days since protests began.
The government said troops had been sent in to Hama to remove barricades erected by the protesters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-14356722
http://www.channel4.com/news/syrian-crackdown-leaves-at-least-121-dead
Wholesale slaughter by the looks of things, with the look of a war but only one side armed.

BlaasForRafa

nacho libre wrote: »

I can't see Russia ever agreeing to it because it has the potential to lead to a wider conflagration. Also America is unlikely to press for intervention.
As military intervention in Syria could turn into a protracted conflict, with a potentially much higher fatality rate than in Libya. Obama could not politically survive A third war like that.

Israel could rip Syria to bits but theres no possibility of that happening because many arabs would prefer to have their brothers oppressed by other muslims rather than be liberated by jews.

Realistically though, the most likely way for this to go would be an internal coup by the army, rather like what happened in Romania in 1989.

JustinDee

nacho libre wrote: »

I can't see Russia ever agreeing to it because it has the potential to lead to a wider conflagration. Also America is unlikely to press for intervention.
As military intervention in Syria could turn into a protracted conflict, with a potentially much higher fatality rate than in Libya. Obama could not politically survive A third war like that.

Russia would object because it has propped up Syria post-1989 and as USSR since the early 50s.

Jonny7

Now they are really shelling Hama with tanks, dozens of casualties yesterday, its getting more like Misrata every day.

The UN are having an emergency meeting, it would of course be pretty reckless to take military action in the current climate, with that country, its defences.. nope far too many factors against it. Just impossible.

The only military action that would have some possibility of success would have to involve other nations and definitely exlude US, UK, France (and Israel of course)

Ps on a side note, I am noticing how none of those "horrified" by NATO action in Libya are even remotely interested in what Assad is doing to his own people.

Nodin

Thousands of Palestinian refugees are fleeing a camp in the Syrian port of Latakia which is being shelled by government troops, a UN agency says.

Reportedly shelling it from Tanks and gunboats.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14533967

"disproportionate" would not seem to be a word used too often in the official syrian vocab.

Sunnyisland

http://www.amnesty.ie/content/dont-let-syrian-people-stand-alone

Every little can help the syrian people.

Sunnyisland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-14577333

It marks a significant increase in pressure on Mr Assad for sending in his army against the protesters.

Meanwhile, UN investigators say the use of violence in Syria "may amount to crimes against humanity".

Nodin

As he gets his weapons elsewhere it makes little difference, however.

Jonny7

Over 3,000 dead so far, and many more thousands injured and imprisoned

any end in sight for this?

Force136

Not many Irish activists setting sail for Syria. I wonder why. Maybe if we whisper in their ear and tell them it's 'dem joos' what are doing it in Syria, they'll get some boats together.

gurramok

I had started the thread in March about the same time as Syrian people started to protest for democracy and now at least 3000 dead later at the hands of state forces and with Libya in the background, nothing has been done at the UN level because Russia and China value their ally. Just so happens Russia and China don't really have a democratic system, do they think they are next for democratic protests?

So yeh, its now up to the defenceless Syrians themselves to fight for their rights only this time they are being forced to take up arms to defend themselves against a holocaust style extermination without any external help. Nice work UN, you hypocrite.

Force136

Over 30 killed today.

I don't see the 'stop the war' coalition about. Left wing remaining quiet. No Irish setting sail.

Odd, they always have time to protest Israel.

AlekSmart

Force136 wrote: »

Over 30 killed today.

I don't see the 'stop the war' coalition about. Left wing remaining quiet. No Irish setting sail.

Odd, they always have time to protest Israel.

Syria is.....well...."Different".

Force136

AlekSmart wrote: »

Syria is.....well...."Different".

Yeah, it lacks a certain je ne sais quoi. (that's French for 'Jews')

wes

gurramok wrote: »

Nice work UN, you hypocrite.

Its the security council that is the issues, and always has been. The US, China and Russia etc will use there veto power to protect there client states sadly.

Force136

Wes, just out of interest. Could you direct me to your posts about Syria? you know, about your concern for their welfare and your disgust of the veto by Russia and China?

It's just that I see you're somewhat preoccupied with posting about Israel, but I'm sure you've taken time out of your schedule to support your fellow brethren in Syria on these forums.

You've probably also lobbied your MP?

wes

Force136 wrote: »

Wes, just out of interest. Could you direct me to your posts about Syria? you know, about your concern for their welfare and your disgust of the veto by Russia and China?

If you read earlier in the thread, you would have seen this post:

wes wrote: »

Intervention is always a tricky thing, and I think they got it largely right in the case of Libya.

However, in the case of Syria (or Yemen or Bahrain), is there anyone capable of actually helping the people at this point? Its seems that far to many countries are simply unable to intervene, or perhaps I am wrong in that.

I wouldn't be against intervention in theory in Syria or elsewhere, if who ever under took it, could do it well, and most importantly that the people there want it.

Also this post (the one right above):
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75421978&postcount=48

Also, seeing as this thread is about Syria and you are bringing up Israel, its seems the only one who has such a obsession with Israel, is yourself, seeing as you want to drag into a thread about Syria, is utter hypocrisy.