Census 2011: Q13, what about adopted people?

quiglet

Hi all,

I don't normally post on boards, but after flicking through the census 2011 i was disgusted and upset to see that Q13 asks "how many children have you given birth to?"
What happens to all the adopted children in Ireland? Do we just go unacknowledged?
My parents and I have decided to boycott the census until this is addressed.
As adopted people we take a lot on the chin; different birth certs, limited rights to trace our birth parents etc.
This however, is to much, are my parents childless, are we adopted invisible?
I would love to hear other peoples reactions to this. To me, as an adopted person this is just one too far.
I'm also thinking of setting up a facebook group to highlight this inequality, would people be interested in joining?

InchicoreDude

I have no real knowledge about adoption or anything like that but what exactly would you like to see different about the census? An extra question about adoption? Or the ""how many children have you given birth to?" to be altered?

I'd imagine the "how many children have you given birth to?" can be used to compare against other census records as this was a question in the 1911 census as well (Although it might have been living children...)

imme

The census is a numbers game OP. I don't think the intention of it is to cause offence, not sure how people can take offence. I'm not in your position though. TBH I don't really get your issue.

Every living person living in Ireland is accounted for in the census. Isn't this the point.

quiglet

The problem is that technically my mother didn't give birth to me so she's wondering does she say zero or two (my brother and I)
It also raises an anomaly in the numbers of the census, if you get really technical what if my mother writes down two as i assume she's supposed to and then my birth mother sees the question how many children did you give birth to and she's accounts for me as well.
its a hard issue to understand when your not coming from it but it just feels as though our family under the protection of art41 of the constitution is being totally discredited, since my mother didnt give birth to me is our family not valid or worth mentioning? i dont want an special section or anything but surely it would have been more politicly correct to ask how many children have you given birth to/adopted.
i know it sounds pedantic but when you deal with the constant obstacles that we sometimes deal with it's just frustrating that the issue wasn't even considered.

partyatmygaff

It's just a question to find out the numbers of births per woman in Ireland.

If your mother did not give birth to you and your brother then she should say zero and your birth mother should say two. It does not make your family any less legitimate. It's just statistics.

Focalbhach

quiglet wrote: »

The problem is that technically my mother didn't give birth to me so she's wondering does she say zero or two (my brother and I)
It also raises an anomaly in the numbers of the census, if you get really technical what if my mother writes down two as i assume she's supposed to and then my birth mother sees the question how many children did you give birth to and she's accounts for me as well.

It doesn't raise any anomaly if you (or your mother, in this case) answer the question that's asked. Your mother did not give birth to you or your brother, so the answer to that question is zero.

quiglet wrote: »

its a hard issue to understand when your not coming from it but it just feels as though our family under the protection of art41 of the constitution is being totally discredited, since my mother didnt give birth to me is our family not valid or worth mentioning? i dont want an special section or anything but surely it would have been more politicly correct to ask how many children have you given birth to/adopted.
i know it sounds pedantic but when you deal with the constant obstacles that we sometimes deal with it's just frustrating that the issue wasn't even considered.

I haven't seen the census form so can't comment on the content - are there are any other questions about family size (or similar)?

Either way, have you written to the CSO to express your dissatisfaction and request a clarification on the point of the question? Otherwise I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by boycotting it.

Victor

Have your mother as Person 1 on the form. Assuming she never gave birth to a child, she should answer 'none' to question 13.

When it comes to you and your brother filling in your section on question 4 you can tick box 3. This will record you as your mother's son.

Between those two points if will effectively say that you are adopted (foster children can tick a different box to question 4).

Nobody is saying that adopted children don't count. There are some statistics on adoption here: http://www.treoir.ie/policy-statistics.php#2

This link also throws up some other sources on the AAI website: http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=4hY&rls=com.ubuntu%3Aen-US%3Aunofficial&q=site%3Awww.aai.gov.ie+statistics&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

Have your mother as Person 1 on the form. Assuming she never gave birth to a child, she should answer 'none' to question 13.

When it comes to you and your brother filling in your section on question 4 you can tick box 3. This will record you as your mother's son.

Between those two points if will effectively say that you are adopted (foster children can tick a different box to question 4).

exactly, simple and obvious way to record these kind of situations.

Iwasfrozen

quiglet wrote: »

Hi all,

I don't normally post on boards, but after flicking through the census 2011 i was disgusted and upset to see that Q13 asks "how many children have you given birth to?"
What happens to all the adopted children in Ireland? Do we just go unacknowledged?
My parents and I have decided to boycott the census until this is addressed.
As adopted people we take a lot on the chin; different birth certs, limited rights to trace our birth parents etc.
This however, is to much, are my parents childless, are we adopted invisible?
I would love to hear other peoples reactions to this. To me, as an adopted person this is just one too far.
I'm also thinking of setting up a facebook group to highlight this inequality, would people be interested in joining?

Instead of setting up a facebook campaign have you thought of e-mailing them?

Liam Byrne

Leto wrote: »

It doesn't raise any anomaly if you (or your mother, in this case) answer the question that's asked. Your mother did not give birth to you or your brother, so the answer to that question is zero.

Precisely.

If the question was "how many children do you have?" then both your mother and your birth mother could legitimately answer "2", in which case the population would seem to be 2 more than it actually is.

Multiply that by, say, a thousand households and you have a survey that's negated due to serious inaccuracies.

The question is phrased so that the answer is useful and unambiguous.

I don't see how there's any offence to be taken, to be honest.

piperpat

As usual catholic ireland treeting adoptees assecomdclass citizens. did you think of writing in another option for adoptees?

spoonface

quiglet wrote: »

Hi all,

I don't normally post on boards, but after flicking through the census 2011 i was disgusted and upset to see that Q13 asks "how many children have you given birth to?"
What happens to all the adopted children in Ireland? Do we just go unacknowledged?
My parents and I have decided to boycott the census until this is addressed.
As adopted people we take a lot on the chin; different birth certs, limited rights to trace our birth parents etc.
This however, is to much, are my parents childless, are we adopted invisible?
I would love to hear other peoples reactions to this. To me, as an adopted person this is just one too far.
I'm also thinking of setting up a facebook group to highlight this inequality, would people be interested in joining?

I think you're taking it a bit personally. They are trying to establish how many births per population, age by which people have given birth by etc, so that they can use this information to feed into healthcare policy etc. It's all fairly logical in trying to establish what they need to know and so what it is not is an exercise to try to make everyone feel validated or acknowledged for the various aspects of their lives and backgrounds. If you live in Ireland then you count as a person on the census form i.e. you are not unacknowledged (for all we know there are ample adoption figures available to the CSO from other sources e.g. adoption boards etc). But for this particular question they are clearly asking how many children have you given birth to, not how many children have you raised.

>My parents and I have decided to boycott the census until this is addressed.

Ok don't do that. First you're legally obliged to comply with it. Second they need everyone's participation to help with understanding the nation and planning for the future of it. So nobody gets to not participate just because they take offence at some of the wording.

Velvet shank

I am working as an enumerator on the census, and we were advised during training that the question was framed in this way in order to sensitively (and appropriately) account for children who may have died in infancy or were stillborn etc. (or presumably all deceased children of people completing the census form). I think the question was formerly framed in the 'how many children do you have?' style, and was thought to be insensitive to those who have lost children.