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Good Luck in GAMSAT 2011!
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First and foremost I am in first year UL so I am biased etc. etc.
I think MrsStuffin's comments while slightly hyperbolic do contain a modicum of truth. I think it is important for people like her/him/that to make these kind of sensationalist posts so we can get sense of what some people may think but don't want to say.
I think the fundamental question you need to ask yourself is how do you learn? Do you learn from the power point presentations and lecture notes you were given in college or from the books the power point lectures and lecture notes were taken. This is what Sam Johnson said on the topic:
Lectures were once useful; but now, when all can read, and books are so numerous, lectures are unnecessary. If your attention fails, and you miss a part of a lecture, it is lost; you cannot go back as you do upon a book... People have nowadays got a strange opinion that everything should be taught by lectures. Now, I cannot see that lectures can do as much good as reading the books from which the lectures are taken. I know nothing that can be best taught by lectures, except where experiments are to be shown. You may teach chymistry by lectures. You might teach making shoes by lectures!
Now that is a bit dated, I know that students these days, especially med and pharm etc. are 'religious' about getting notes downloaded and reviewing themselves in their own time, usually in conjunction with the text book.
But PBL is more than that, it's more than just reading books and learning the basic sciences of medicine 'yourself' with a generous splattering of Google searches and wikipedia consultation. It's a principle based on, at any point, what you have learned last week/yesterday/20 minutes ago is questionable and you need to be able to demonstrate you know it and understand it. It's about problem solving and about having knowledge between your ears and not in notes.
Now having said that, certain subjects or topics do require lectures or a series of lectures, to make it clear what the school thinks is important and essential to know. Subjects like Microbiology and Biochemistry are domains and disciplines within themselves and as a PBL student its hard to know what level of detail is necessary to know. In PBL and SDL we make that distinction, knowledge that we know or need to know and knowledge that you might read once and be aware of it.
I think almost every Doctor I've spoken with lamented the amount of time and effort they spent learning Biochemistry pathways only to forget 90% of it by the time they hit the wards.
I will acknowledge that anatomy, physiology and pharmacology are subjects at the core of a medical degree that should make up the bread and butter of your learning. In UL, I actually think the teaching and learning of anatomy and physiology is covered very well, despite not having any cadaver or dissection work. I am not in a position to comment on a comparison, I had never done human anatomy prior to the course. Intuitively though, it's hard to imagine dissections and cadaver work ever being a hindrance to your education. I am aware of some of the theoretical arguments against a reliance on cadavers - as a doctor you'd hope to be dealing with living tissue rather than dead tissue (unless you're a pathologist), actually I won't even further attempt to argue against cadavers
In UL, in anatomy and physiology we have two great professors, one in particular who takes up the core of the anatomy and physiology teaching. In a nut shell, we're given pictures of organs/structures/tissues and a set of questions relating to their clinically significance in anatomy, physiology and disease. Every week we have a 'rounds like' session in which we're questioned on their contents.
However, with regard to pharmacology, biochem and micro I think there is a deficit of expertise with regard to teaching and direction. The PBL model we work from doesn't do it very well and there isn't a huge amount of scrutiny in the PBL sessions to identify gaps in knowledge. In a nutshell, if you never did a science degree before, and I'm extrapolating based on first year UL, based on what we're explicitly prescribed to learn you wouldn't do very well in the USMLE in these topics based on your UL course. Now, one of the parts of the PBL ethos is to interpret learning objectives widely but never the less, you will not cover these topics adequately for USMLE preparation. It's debatable if the material is covered adequately to survive the clinical years of med school.
In UL, we actually do a huge amount on 'clinical skills' in the pre-clinical years. Learning how to do neurological exams and take blood pressure, do ECGs and do respiratory exams. We do OSCEs from day one.
Finally I'd like to remind people that the material you learn in med school tends to be quite small compared to the amount of material a doctor learns in her life time. The material learned in 1st year and 2nd year is built upon and augmented in 3rd and 4th years, where to the best of my knowledge, the medical schools don't significantly differ (open to correction/debate/information).
This isn't written as a defense of UL, nor to encourage people sitting on the fence to put UL higher on priorities. My only aim is to present my opinion in a fashion which demonstrates I am not insecure about my degree thus far, I am not paranoid about what other people might be saying in coffee shops in Vincents or Blanchardstown. I am not trying to plaster over any weaknesses neither.
The only real tests will be to see what UL trained junior doctors will be like in the field (wards) next year and the next couple of years. I am quietly confident that academically, if you were to test UL students on USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 with RCSI, UCC and UCD students, our top guys would be on par with their top guys and our low guys would be on par with their low guys. How the mid people compare might be interesting though.
There are many reasons why you might have an inferiority complex in med school. You might think all the BEST medical schools are in the USA and all Irish ones are a second best. Next you might say all the best students went into Irish medical schools as 18/19 year old undergrads and all the Graduate entries are a lot of runners up. Next you might say UL has the lowest GAMSAT score so it's the worst of a bad lot. So if someone reading this took three gamsat attempts to get into RCSI and spent 100s on tests and prep courses and notes etc. and thinks their better than someone else who has already done a bit of med school they should refresh their intellectual internet cache and start again fresh.0 -
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MrsStuffins - congrats on getting into RCSI.
When you graduate will it annoy you that grads from the other 3 med schools will be getting paid the exact same as you?
When you graduate will it annoy you that grads from the other 3 med schools will be viewed the exact same as you and given the same oppertunities?
When you graduate will it annoy you that grads from the other 3 med schools will some day be your superior?
Hate consumes my friend - don't be a hater
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Interesting to hear an objective view on it from an insider. It is hard to imagine how (1) having a lecturer read the information to you, you learning it at home and (2) reading the information and discussing it with classmates, could lead to two wildly different outcomes....but a lack of scrutiny is unusual...Sid_Justice wrote: »However, with regard to pharmacology, biochem and micro I think there is a deficit of expertise with regard to teaching and direction. The PBL model we work from doesn't do it very well and there isn't a huge amount of scrutiny in the PBL sessions to identify gaps in knowledge. In a nutshell, if you never did a science degree before, and I'm extrapolating based on first year UL, based on what we're explicitly prescribed to learn you wouldn't do very well in the USMLE in these topics based on your UL course. Now, one of the parts of the PBL ethos is to interpret learning objectives widely but never the less, you will not cover these topics adequately for USMLE preparation. It's debatable if the material is covered adequately to survive the clinical years of med school.
Very interesting idea...Sid_Justice wrote: »The only real tests will be to see what UL trained junior doctors will be like in the field (wards) next year and the next couple of years. I am quietly confident that academically, if you were to test UL students on USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 with RCSI, UCC and UCD students, our top guys would be on par with their top guys and our low guys would be on par with their low guys. How the mid people compare might be interesting though.
In an overall sense it's good to see that St George's College London have been running PBL since 2000, and I cannot find any articles online about their graduates being incompetent doctors, so I guess that bodes well for UL students?!
PBL is fairly popular in some american colleges too I hear? Would be interesting to know if anyone has any concrete facts on how popular PBL is on global scale...
As good a put-down as I've seen online. Well played.Sid_Justice wrote: »So if someone reading this took three gamsat attempts to get into RCSI and spent 100s on tests and prep courses and notes etc. and thinks their better than someone else who has already done a bit of med school they should refresh their intellectual internet cache and start again fresh.
For the thread in general - I havn't read these, but for sh1ts and giggles, here are three articles comparing studies of MCQ tests on SHOs who have studied via PBL vs SHOs that did traditional courses.
Albanese MA, Mitchell S. Problem-based learning: a review of the literature on its outcomes and implementation issues. Acad Med 1993;68:52–81. Berkson L. Problem-based learning: have the expectations been met? AcadMed 1993;68(suppl 10):S79–88.
Vernon DTA. Attitudes and opinions of faculty tutors about problem-based learning. Acad Med 1995;70:216–23.
Mann KV, Kaufman DM. Evaluation of innovative curricula. A comparative study of problem-based and conventional undergraduate curricula in preparing students for graduate medical education. Acad Med 1999;74(suppl):S4–6.
If anybody wants to research this more fully we can set up a new thread and properly get down to the grizzle & bones discussion of PBL.0 -
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Tradesmann wrote: »Going mad wondering if my 59 will be enough to get UCD...its dangerous to believe the talk of scores coming down I know, but still tempting : 0neurodegenerate wrote: »Yep I'm the same tradesmann also on 59 with my fingers crossed for UCD! Did my undergrad there would be very happy to spend another 4 years there... cmon august!!
join the club
In the likely event that its not enough though Im trying to figure out would I rather Cork or UL...0 -
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Rounds Zero (i.e. GEM offers) starts this year is on 4th August. The next round is 22nd August. Best of luck, I'm hoping for a round zero offer too! :-)
Fingers crossed for everyone. If UCD stays at or goes below 61 I'll be absolutely ecstatic & probably arrested for being a public nuisance!
If I've finally made up my mind between UCD & UCC at that point that is!!!!
How did you find out round zero is starting on the 4th August Mystery1?-CAO havnt update their website yet.
Anybody thinking that these weeks are craaaaaaaawling by?
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hurdygurdy85 wrote: »Fingers crossed for everyone. If UCD stays at or goes below 61 I'll be absolutely ecstatic & probably arrested for being a public nuisance! If I've finally made up my mind between UCD & UCC at that point that is!!!!
How did you find out round zero is starting on the 4th August Mystery1?-CAO havnt update their website yet.
Anybody thinking that these weeks are craaaaaaaawling by?
Hi Hurdygurdy85!
I think the weeks are crawling too, how I'm going to get through 2 more months of waiting is beyond me. I've got a 60 which is 'borderline' for UCD and UCC based on last years cut-offs, if I don't get a place (which I had a nightmare about last night, I dreamt I scored 22 in the GAMSAT) I'll be fierce disappointed, I have already told everyone not to tell anyone that I'm going back to college. I hope I haven't set myself up for a fall!
CAO seem to have told the date of round zero offers to some of the UNIs who have put the dates up on their websites.
UCD: https://myucd.ucd.ie/programme_info/gen_reg.ezc
UL: http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Services/Student_Affairs/Student_Administration/Admissions/Important%20Dates
I correct myself on round one offers, they're on 23rd August not the 22nd.
Fingers crossed I see you in UCD or UCC Hurdygurdy85!0 -
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JordyWordy wrote: »Interesting to hear an objective view on it from an insider. It is hard to imagine how (1) having a lecturer read the information to you, you learning it at home and (2) reading the information and discussing it with classmates, could lead to two wildly different outcomes....but a lack of scrutiny is unusual...
Very interesting idea...
In an overall sense it's good to see that St George's College London have been running PBL since 2000, and I cannot find any articles online about their graduates being incompetent doctors, so I guess that bodes well for UL students?! PBL is fairly popular in some american colleges too I hear? Would be interesting to know if anyone has any concrete facts on how popular PBL is on global scale...
As good a put-down as I've seen online. Well played.
For the thread in general - I havn't read these, but for sh1ts and giggles, here are three articles comparing studies of MCQ tests on SHOs who have studied via PBL vs SHOs that did traditional courses.
Albanese MA, Mitchell S. Problem-based learning: a review of the literature on its outcomes and implementation issues. Acad Med 1993;68:52–81. Berkson L. Problem-based learning: have the expectations been met? AcadMed 1993;68(suppl 10):S79–88.
Vernon DTA. Attitudes and opinions of faculty tutors about problem-based learning. Acad Med 1995;70:216–23.
Mann KV, Kaufman DM. Evaluation of innovative curricula. A comparative study of problem-based and conventional undergraduate curricula in preparing students for graduate medical education. Acad Med 1999;74(suppl):S4–6.
If anybody wants to research this more fully we can set up a new thread and properly get down to the grizzle & bones discussion of PBL.
Hi JordyWordy
Many thanks for the articles above.... have you access to these articles? I found them on pubmed but I've no access and there are no abstracts, I'd love to read the findings of the articles! :-)0 -
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My worry about UL is the fear of the unknown, I've no experience of PBL, so I'd be terrified that I'd sign up to it to find I can't motivate myself enough for it, I wouldn't mind a 50/50 mix of lectures + PBL maybe.... can anyone tell me how much of the UL course is based on PBL?[/QUOTE]
Hi Mystery1,
Here is a link to a very accurate portrayal of life in UL
http://www.newmediamedicine.com/forum/university-limerick/54120-ul-not-ul.html
When I went to UCC open day last year, they said the course was a mixture of case-based learning and lectures which might be more in line with what you're looking for, but maybe someone else could answer that for you as I'm not 100%. This is from their website 'Much of the teaching is small group learning with a focus on teamwork and self-directed learning. Methods include sign-post seminars, weekly case discussions, problem-based learning, tutorials and clinical skills and laboratory work-shops.'
In regards to the primary care approach, there is an 18 week GP placement in third year in UL. So yes, it is quite focused on primary care but we still have to complete the same amount of time in the medicine and surgery rotations as UCC/RCSI/UCD. Hope this helps! 0
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