Insulating internal stud walls

chuchyface

I have an apartment in Dublin city centre which is a relatively new build and I just cannot understand this practice of installing walls which are basically just hollow plasterboard shells, why, in this day and age when we are all concerned about energy saving, are builders allowed to put up internal stud walls with no insulation at all ?

I am not in fact really concerned about energy saving, I am more concerned about noise. It is very annoying when you are sitting in a room trying to do some work and you can hear every single thing that is happening in another room, TV, talking, moving, etc, etc, not to mention been able to hear the toilet habits of your husband/wife/partner and I certainly think in some circumstances that these "noises" could be used as grounds for a divorce!

Could anybody please advice if it is possible to have existing walls insulated against noise and if so what is the best and hopefully cheapest method available ? I would also very much appreciate recommendations that anyone has for a company that can carry out this work.

Thanks.

Rhys Essien

Id say you should call one of those insulation companies that pump insulation into cavity walls(the small ball polystyrene stuff).They drill holes in several places around the wall to make sure if gets everywhere.
Id say the whole job would cost a few hundred.
That is unless you want to pull down all the plasterboard and put in rockwool.:)

Carlow52

1: u should edit name of post to reflect its a sound issue

2: u need 'mass' to stop sound and so rockwoll etc is a waste of time as u wont get 100% mass, all sound needs is a pin hole to break the barrier.

3: look at ur walls and see if there are sockets/switches in one room and ditto on the other side of the wall: if so this is a problem that is not easily addressed for sound.

4: I would consider adding another 12.5 mm pf plaster board to both sides of the walls and make sure the job is 100% airtight.

5: If it was my gaff and it is as bad as u say, for the critical rooms I would rip down the internal walls and build a block wall

gman2k

Basically nothing you can do will improve the situation regarding sound insulation with existing partition walls in an apartment, without stripping out your apartment completely.
It is always good practice to insulate bathrooms etc with quilted insulation.

chuchyface

Have a guy calling around to quote me for injecting Insulation Foam into the walls, it looks good, just hoping it won't be too expensive.

gman2k

chuchyface wrote: »

Have a guy calling around to quote me for injecting Insulation Foam into the walls, it looks good, just hoping it won't be too expensive.

You are wasting your time and your money using spray foam for sound insulation.

It is a very light (in terms of mass) product.
For sound insulation you need a heavy product, that's why Rockwool or cellulose is used.

The guy who is calling around will tell you what you want to hear, and you'll probably believe him. Initially you will be happy with the job, cos you will need to justify it to yourself after spending so much!
Then the realisation will creep in that you wasted your money!, because the sound will still be coming through.....

Carlow52

gman2k wrote: »

You are wasting your time and your money using spray foam for sound insulation.

It is a very light (in terms of mass) product.
For sound insulation you need a heavy product, that's why Rockwool or cellulose is used.

The guy who is calling around will tell you what you want to hear, and you'll probably believe him. Initially you will be happy with the job, cos you will need to justify it to yourself after spending so much!
Then the realisation will creep in that you wasted your money!, because the sound will still be coming through.....

+1 on the above

The proposal is a waste of money

It will be impossible to get 100% filling within the stud walls as the foam need to push all the air out and they wont be drilling holes right at the corners of where the noggins are etc.
If too much foam is used the pb may bulge/buckle/crack, at whose cost?

chuchyface

Looks to me like it would fill the walls properly. Take a look for yourselves http://premiuminsulation.ie/Video/78.

I would also assume that if a company promises their product is a good sound insulator than it would have to deliver on that promise or else I would have an excellent reason as to why I shouldn't pay them.

gman2k

Churchy, sorry if I come across preachy....you have come here asking for advice, you've been told now that spray foam insulation won't do the job, and you are still saying it's going to work properly, it looks good etc, and now put up a link to the company.......

BTW, I've nothing against spray foam insulation, I think it's a good product when used correctly for heat insulation.

My final piece of advice on the matter.
Can your proposed installer show you facts and figures for guaranteed sound DB reductions utilizing standard measurement techniques across the wall construction you have in your apt?
Will he allow a third party sound test be performed to confirm a before and after comparison before monies are exchanged?

yoshytoshy

I'd give the heavy insulation beads a go ,the weight would definetly make a difference within the wall.

Edit : You've still got your ceilings to worry about though ,your walls might only meet the ceilings.

gman2k

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I'd give the heavy insulation beads a go ,the weight would definetly make a difference within the wall.

Edit : You've still got your ceilings to worry about though ,your walls might only meet the ceilings.

No, I would not use insulation beads.
1. It's still too light in terms of mass to act as a suitable sound insulator.
2. It will degrade the sheaths on wiring and cause a fire risk. Unless your wiring is fully conduited, beaded insulation should not be used in any application.

There is a reason why Rockwool is used as a sound insulator - i.e. it works.
It is all about the density of the product - kg/m3.

Carlow52

gman2k wrote: »

.
My final piece of advice on the matter.
Can your proposed installer show you facts and figures for guaranteed sound DB reductions utilizing standard measurement techniques across the wall construction you have in your apt?
Will he allow a third party sound test be performed to confirm a before and after comparison before monies are exchanged?

This the nub of the matter when it comes to sound proofing.

In cases such as say motorway noise the sound level is pretty even across a given time period so the before and after set of figures is easy enough to collect and compare, for say double/treble/quadruple glazing.

However in an apt it is much different, due in part to the background noise levels changing so the same noise at midday will seem much louder at 3am.

A lot of the problems with sound revolve about this time shift issue and also what the listener is doing at the time.

yoshytoshy

gman2k wrote: »

No, I would not use insulation beads.
1. It's still too light in terms of mass to act as a suitable sound insulator.
2. It will degrade the sheaths on wiring and cause a fire risk. Unless your wiring is fully conduited, beaded insulation should not be used in any application.

There is a reason why Rockwool is used as a sound insulator - i.e. it works.
It is all about the density of the product - kg/m3.

Didn't know about degrading ,I've only seen the beads in cavities myself. Just making a suggestion ,cheers.

chuchyface

gman2k,

I did indeed come her for advice but your telling me what your saying is correct and I should basically tell the company to get lost on the strength of your advice. You are also quite patronising in your advice "The guy who is calling around will tell you what you want to hear, and you'll probably believe him. Initially you will be happy with the job, cos you will need to justify it to yourself after spending so much!" as if I am some sort of idiot who will believe the sales patter of some guy and actually fool myself into thinking that it worked when it didn't. What are your qualifications on the subject that you are so sure of yourself ?

I thank you for your advice but after some research I will make up my own mind.

Carlow52

chuchyface wrote: »

gman2k,

I did indeed come her for advice but your telling me what your saying is correct and I should basically tell the company to get lost on the strength of your advice. You are also quite patronising in your advice "The guy who is calling around will tell you what you want to hear, and you'll probably believe him. Initially you will be happy with the job, cos you will need to justify it to yourself after spending so much!" as if I am some sort of idiot who will believe the sales patter of some guy and actually fool myself into thinking that it worked when it didn't. What are your qualifications on the subject that you are so sure of yourself ?

I thank you for your advice but after some research I will make up my own mind.

OTT

What was written is well documented in any psychology book. You don't have to take anybodies advice but p$ssing in on top of someone who offers an opinion that you dont agree with is uncalled for hence OTT.

chuchyface

Carlow52 wrote: »

OTT

What was written is well documented in any psychology book. You don't have to take anybodies advice but p$ssing in on top of someone who offers an opinion that you dont agree with is uncalled for hence OTT.

Not only a sound insulation expert but a psychology expert as well!!

I asked for advice not a lecture!!

littleredspot

OP you mention uninsulated internal walls being an energy saving issue in your original post. You also bought or rented a recently built apartment in Ireland believing that the internal walls would be block built. This in my mind would suggest you have very little knowledge of building standard/ processes. This is not in anyway an insult.

You posted your query because of your lack of knowledge. You should therefore take on board the replies. You don't have to agree with them but in general people on Boards post to be helpfull and because they have some knowledge in the area.

Here's my tuppence worth...
I tried to sound insulate a flat I was renovating (the first floor of a house) I added noggins to the floor, stuffed it with Rockwool, and used 2 different layers of sound insulating mats and extra ply under the floor. I then built all the internal walls on foam and stuffed them with rockwool. I also double slabbed the ceiling below with sound insulating plasterboard and sealed up all gaps with a sound deadening sealant. The sound still traveled through the flat and down below.
Its very difficult to sound insulate anything. I'm sure there's someway to do it but there may well be something in your lease about altering internal walls.
I think renaming the post "sound proofing an apartment" and moving it to construction and planning may get you some more advice

chuchyface

littleredspot,

I do appreciate advice and your advice was the kind of thing I was looking for as you have learned first hand that it is a difficult thing to do, however I felt as though other advice I was been given was more like I was been told what to do rather than offering advice.

I was aware when I moved in that the walls would not be block but I did not think they would be completely hollow, I just assumed they would be insulated, to me not insulating them is bad building practice.

gman2k

gman2k wrote: »

Basically nothing you can do will improve the situation regarding sound insulation with existing partition walls in an apartment, without stripping out your apartment completely.

This was my initial advice to the OP, and it still stands as it's 'real world'

Now, sorry if I came across preachy, but.....anyway I've covered all that.
I'm not going to list my qualifications, I've given my advice, take care.

youtheman

Carlow52 wrote: »

2: u need 'mass' to stop sound

Sorry, but I don't totally agree with this. Look up 'Armasound' on the www.armacell.com website. You'll see they have an open cell foam designed for sound insulation (and the key-word is 'open cell', the idea is that you have an open cell to capture the sound energy). We've used this in work to insulate pipework that was over 110 dB in noise level.

Anyone who has seen a noise enclosure around a diesel generator will see a foam product inside a perforated steel mesh. Vert effective. The perforations allow the sound in and the foam captures the sound. Similarily, you'll find the same construction inside a hood around a phone booth.

Carlow52

youtheman wrote: »

Sorry, but I don't totally agree with this. Look up 'Armasound' on the www.armacell.com website. You'll see they have an open cell foam designed for sound insulation (and the key-word is 'open cell', the idea is that you have an open cell to capture the sound energy). We've used this in work to insulate pipework that was over 110 dB in noise level.

Anyone who has seen a noise enclosure around a diesel generator will see a foam product inside a perforated steel mesh. Very effective. The perforations allow the sound in and the foam captures the sound. Similarily, you'll find the same construction inside a hood around a phone booth.

Always happy to learn so thanks for that.

I see there is acoustic material for ceilings and partitions
http://www.armacell.com/www/armacell/armacell.nsf/ansHTMLSeitenLookUp/INT-Sound_Frame?OpenDocument

Again thanks for the heads up.

ps: there is loads of really useful stuff on that site in the tech library: many thanks

youtheman

I would describe it as a heavy foam, but nothing special. A 1 metre square sheet can be carried under your arm.

I built a false wall in my bathroom to enslose a thermostatic mixer. I took some of the Armasound left over from work and put it in the space, did the job for me.

Not sure of the cost, but it's designed for industrial applications so I suppose it's not cheap.

cast_iron

chuchyface wrote: »

Looks to me like it would fill the walls properly. Take a look for yourselves http://premiuminsulation.ie/Video/78.

I would also assume that if a company promises their product is a good sound insulator than it would have to deliver on that promise or else I would have an excellent reason as to why I shouldn't pay them.

I had a look at that video. It looks quite impressive to be fair.

However, I didn't hear one claim about being any use at sound insulation.
And it doesn't mention it on the website either. I'd be asking for proof in writing before I went near them.

You would also want to be very careful around electrical fittings, that stuff would pour into a socket if it wasn't sealed properly.

If it was me, I'd strip one side of the wall, stuff it with as much rockwool as possible, then double slab to finish (both sides).

chuchyface

Your correct cast iron it does not say anything on the site about sound proofing but I emailed the company and they did assure me that it was a very good sound insulator so I suppose the email could be used as proof of there promise but just in case I think I would ask them to add in into any contract.

If I had discovered the problem when I first moved in I think I probably would have ripped down one side of the wall and stuffed it but I would prefer to avoid that now if possible as it would be a messy job.

cast_iron

chuchyface wrote: »

Your correct cast iron it does not say anything on the site about sound proofing but I emailed the company and they did assure me that it was a very good sound insulator so I suppose the email could be used as proof of there promise but just in case I think I would ask them to add in into any contract.

I don't doubt it would be "very good" at reducing the sound levels from the level they are at now. Pretty much anything would be. However, since this product is not designed for sound insulation, your definition of "very good" could turn out to differ quite alot from the companies after the job is done.

Unless they can produce some stats on how good a sound barrier it is, I wouldn't risk it. Quite simply because it's a punt in the dark.

If I had discovered the problem when I first moved in I think I probably would have ripped down one side of the wall and stuffed it but I would prefer to avoid that now if possible as it would be a messy job.

Indeed. But you should be aware that this is the most effective proven method for sound insulating. For me, I wouldn't risk my money trying the foam. Anyway, let us know how you get on.:)

chuchyface

I think you are correct the promise of it being "very good" is not a great definition and I will look into having some sort of test conducted or indeed whether they would be willing to put the product to some kind of test.

Incidentally the reason the walls are not insulated in the first place is because of badly written building regulations which state

Airborne sound (walls).
E1 (1) A wall which -
(a) separates a dwelling from another dwelling or from another building, or
(b) separates a habitable room within a dwelling from another part of the same building which is not used exclusively with the dwelling, shall have reasonable resistance to airborne sound.

Builders could actually argue that plasterboard offers a "reasonable resistance to airborne sound" and therefore they don't have to bother insulating!

MicktheMan

chuchyface wrote: »

Your correct cast iron it does not say anything on the site about sound proofing but I emailed the company and they did assure me that it was a very good sound insulator so I suppose the email could be used as proof of there promise but just in case I think I would ask them to add in into any contract..

To what sound test & standard has the product been tested to and is there a test report available from an accredited institution?

If not, then I wouldn't give much credence to their "very good" comment.