Vat on Labour given to tradesmen

Snazzy_Chazzy

Got a plumber in i supplied the Mixer tap, He just fitted it. €100 plus vat, He mistakingly said €121 euro, He "FORGOT" the vat on labour was €13.5%
I asked him for an invoice he pulls out a scrap of copybook paper with his name and address stamped on it (Ink and stamp job) He took €113.00, I asked him about vat number and he then wrote it on the paper. Are small time tradesmen supposed to give you a proper printed up invoice or will a scrap of paper suffice? Would it be common that some tradesmen just take the VAT as profit and not submit the vat to Mr taxman ? Illegal I know but has to be impossible to trace such transactions!

Before you ask,I paid in cash (because I don't have a cheque book, and because its not a huge amount.
:rolleyes:

dudara

He should have a copy of the invoice (regardless of whether it's printed or handwritten) for his own purposes. At the very least, he should be using a carbon copy docket book.

I'd be surprised (though I could be wrong) if he is submitting the VAT to Revenue

knighted_1

he is required to issue you with a reciept upon request - he doesn't have to give you a vat reciept or breakdown of costs as you are a domestic customer and non vat registered - if he was dealing with a vat registered business he is required to detail the vat

Snazzy_Chazzy

Ah so basically creaming a 13% bonus
Fair enough just wondering , thanks for the input

martinn123

Just my opinion, it appears you have 'PAID' VAT on a transaction and doubt if the tradesman will return the VAT to revenue.

You have a reciept, handwritten, and a VAT number.

Report the transaction to Revenue and they will investigate, as surely its illegal to charge VAT and not pay it over

Snazzy_Chazzy

Ill Pay by cheque next time, Can a tradesman refuse to accept a cheque on the grounds it might bounce? Ie "sorry I had a few bouncers i only accept cash"

knighted_1

Jumping the gun there a bit - ye have him found guilty already

you misunderstand my post - he doesn't have to issue you a vat reciept but he is still required to charge you vat

That means he doesn't have to give you vat breakdown on the reciept if you requested a reciept

P. Breathnach

Snazzy_Chazzy wrote: »

Ill Pay by cheque next time, Can a tradesman refuse to accept a cheque on the grounds it might bounce? Ie "sorry I had a few bouncers i only accept cash"

He can refuse a cheque without having to give you any reason.

knighted_1

Snazzy_Chazzy wrote: »

Ill Pay by cheque next time, Can a tradesman refuse to accept a cheque on the grounds it might bounce? Ie "sorry I had a few bouncers i only accept cash"

If you got on a bus would they accept a cheque from you ? Would tesco 's or paddy power ?

It's up to the individual what way they accept payment which should be stated at the start and agreed by both parties

martinn123

knighted_1 wrote: »

Jumping the gun there a bit - ye have him found guilty already

you misunderstand my post - he doesn't have to issue you a vat reciept but he is still required to charge you vat

That means he doesn't have to give you vat breakdown on the reciept if you requested a reciept

Any tradesman charging VAT is obliged to give a valid VAT number, and its open to anyone to check if the VAT number is 'valid'

Otherwise any chancer would be charging VAT when not registered.
As to the breakdown the reciept should state what rate of VAT is being charged

knighted_1

martinn123 wrote: »

Any tradesman charging VAT is obliged to give a valid VAT number, and its open to anyone to check if the VAT number is 'valid'

Otherwise any chancer would be charging VAT when not registered.
As to the breakdown the reciept should state what rate of VAT is being charged

not true

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/charging/invoicing.html#section2


read section 3.2 where it states " . An accountable person is not required to issue a VAT invoice to an unregistered person otherwise, but may do so if he or she so wishes"

so there is no requirement to do so to a residential customer .


personnally i always do ,as i deal with b2b and domestic but i know loads that dont supply a vat breakdown just a total amount per job which is perfectly legal .doesnt mean they scamming just means they have different procedures to me

P. Breathnach

knighted_1 wrote: »

...
It's up to the individual what way they accept payment which should be stated at the start and agreed by both parties

And in the absence of an express agreement, the only form of payment that the seller of goods or services can not refuse is legal tender (cash).

mdebets

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And in the absence of an express agreement, the only form of payment that the seller of goods or services can not refuse is legal tender (cash).

That's not true. Legal tender is only applicable for settling a debt. So if you pay for a service that was already performed, he has to accept cash. If you pay for a service upfront or for a good, the seller can insist on payment in any form (he could insist you paying him in glass pearls or polished stones).

P. Breathnach

mdebets wrote: »

That's not true. Legal tender is only applicable for settling a debt. So if you pay for a service that was already performed, he has to accept cash. If you pay for a service upfront or for a good, the seller can insist on payment in any form (he could insist you paying him in glass pearls or polished stones).

I could write long posts with all the bases covered, but I prefer to be succinct. I also try to be correct, and I think it reasonably obvious that in accepting what knighted_1 said I have that covered.

BnB

Snazzy_Chazzy wrote: »

Ah so basically creaming a 13% bonus
Fair enough just wondering , thanks for the input

I think that's very unfair. Just because he didn't give you a formal printed receipt, you have him hung drawn and quartered.

You asked for a receipt - and he gave it to you.

You asked for his VAT number - and he gave it to you.

If he has a VAT number, he has to be doing VAT returns.

Can I ask why you looked for his VAT number ? Are you going to Claim the VAT back on it ?

Zab

BnB wrote: »

Can I ask why you looked for his VAT number ? Are you going to Claim the VAT back on it ?

After the guy tried to blatantly rip him off by charging 21% I'd say OP began to suspect that he may not be registered for VAT at all. I can't see how a plumber could possibly forget that he's only supposed to charge 13.5%. You can bet he remembers when it comes time to pay the Revenue!

ejmaztec

If you want to go the whole hog, you can check the validity of a vat number here:


http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/vieshome.do?selectedLanguage=EN

knighted_1

Zab wrote: »

After the guy tried to blatantly rip him off by charging 21% I'd say OP began to suspect that he may not be registered for VAT at all. I can't see how a plumber could possibly forget that he's only supposed to charge 13.5%. You can bet he remembers when it comes time to pay the Revenue!

everyone has an opinion - usually wrong though

it is quite possible that he 'forgot' the vat rate
If you go through the revenue website you will find that vat is charged at the rate which 3/4 of the total price is -

Example - plumber charged 100 euro for labour only - vat rate is 13.5

plumber charges 400 euro to supply and fit bath - bath costs 300 labour costs 100 - job is charged at 400 plus 21% vat - this is because 3/4 of the total bill falls under the 21% rate - that's the rule

So he could easily be mistaken in vat rates ,as if he is working for retailers or bathroom suppliers , they might ha e him on 21%

If you get your car serviced in a garage have a look at the vat rate - PARTS are charged at 13.5% as the labour is usually 3/4 of the bill do the lower vat rate applies ( more technical than that , simplified it)

Zab

knighted_1 wrote: »

everyone has an opinion - usually wrong though

it is quite possible that he 'forgot' the vat rate
If you go through the revenue website you will find that vat is charged at the rate which 3/4 of the total price is -

Possible he forgot? Yes. Probable? No. It would be very common for a plumber to be charging largely for his labour for jobs similar to OPs. Would I convict him in a court? No, but I'm convinced enough that I'd no longer trust him. Also, it doesn't matter to your argument but it's two-thirds, not three-quarters.

UrbanSea

martinn123 wrote: »

Just my opinion, it appears you have 'PAID' VAT on a transaction and doubt if the tradesman will return the VAT to revenue.

You have a reciept, handwritten, and a VAT number.

Report the transaction to Revenue and they will investigate, as surely its illegal to charge VAT and not pay it over

Some people really jump the gun around here,it's quite astonishing.

Agent_99

The revenue cannot check to see if he plumber paid "your" €13 to them when he does a VAT return there is no breakdown of transactions, just a complete breakdown of all his trading for generally a six month period if he is a small trader. Unless they do a complete audit of accounts at the end of the tax year. but I think they have a few bigger boys to be looked at first.