Anyone Ever Blue?

FISMA

A family firearm, not interesting or old enough to be an heirloom, has been offered to me for restoration.

No problem in restoring the mechanics, sanding the wood , and all of that.

However, I am wondering if anyone has ever blued a barrel?

Any lessons learned, SNAFU's, or advice would be greatly appreciated.

First hand knowledge would be greatly appreciated.

Slan.

kay 9

I used hoppes blue on an old shotgun of dads. Didn't work too good though. Was Hoppes Gun blue, others will swear by it. It will hold the blue for a month then begins to lose it again. I think it's best get it done professionally maybe.

FOXHUNTER1

FISMA wrote: »

A family firearm, not interesting or old enough to be an heirloom, has been offered to me for restoration.

No problem in restoring the mechanics, sanding the wood , and all of that.

However, I am wondering if anyone has ever blued a barrel?

Any lessons learned, SNAFU's, or advice would be greatly appreciated.

First hand knowledge would be greatly appreciated.

Slan.

I've done a few of them over the years and tried several different makes of blue kits.
I found that the bisley gel is by far the best cold blue I've used.
The first thing you need to do is completely degrease the gun and I mean really completely degrease not just giving it a wipe over with a rag.
Then I give the gun a rub down with the finest sand paper you can get your hands on something like wet and dry is the job this will provide a key for the blueing.
Dry the gun completely and make sure not to get finger prints on it or any other oils etc.
At this stage I hang the barrel by a piece of wire and I apply the blueing gel with a small soft art brush as quick as I can so as to get an even coat all over.
Give it a couple of minutes and then rinse with cold water I normally use the shower for this.
Dry the gun again and repeat the blueing process until your happy with the colour.
Just make sure you wash it well after each coat this will help with the end result.
When your happy with the colour lock it in with a real good oil and polish it up I use Militec oil for this it's great stuff and really brings the gun up like new.
It's time consuming but if you have patience it works fine.

rowa

I used hot blue and it leaves the cold blues for dead , the only problem is you might find it hard to get as it contains copper sulphate and its poisonous . You also need a method of submersing the barrel in boiling water to heat it. And its time consuming as you build up the blue over the period of about a week . I can give you the formula for the blue if you want , if you can find a chemist to make it for you.

flanum

some great clips on youtube how to blue.. heres one..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7BX5G2V2wc

Double Barrel

FISMA
I send them to a pro so my information is second hand, but I have picked up a few tips over time.
As others have said the secret of a good finish is in the prep work.
He uses a small blaster loaded with very fine glass media/beads/shot (the glass media disintegrates on contact with the metal) to clean the barrels of old finish, oil and any other gunk then preparing the barrels for the finer work using wet and dry fine paper. As Foxhunter1 wrote the barrels need to be really clean.
Finished is produced by brushing a chemical treatment ?? on the metal and then turning the rust black by boling in a purpose built tank and then carding down the residue. Then cycling through the process, treat, boil, card, treat...,7-8 times. A time consuming process but the finished product is worth the effort, or in my case the green.

Barrels ready for blacking fluid to be brushed on.
http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/3023/dsc00166r.jpg

Finished
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5812/dsc00363bw.jpg

Glass media: http://www.campbellmachinery.ie/pages/blast_medias_abrasives.htm

pedroeibar1

rowa wrote: »

I used hot blue and it leaves the cold blues for dead , the only problem is you might find it hard to get as it contains copper sulphate and its poisonous . You also need a method of submersing the barrel in boiling water to heat it. And its time consuming as you build up the blue over the period of about a week . I can give you the formula for the blue if you want , if you can find a chemist to make it for you.

For starters, copper sulphate is not used in the hot (nitro) bluing process. The main chemicals used are sodium and potassium nitrates; the process is highly dangerous because of the heat generated, which can be hot enough to melt the silver-solder on the ribs of antique guns. As the stuff boils any droplet can cause serious damage to skin, fabric, etc. and the steam from overheating can condense causing similar. Temperature is critical, too hot and the process will work too fast and screw up the metal, temp. too low and the process will not work. It is not a job for an amateur, to do it properly you need too much equipment for a one-off job.
Anyone contemplating a hot-blue job should buy the books, study them, read them again and should not depend on any BB for advice. (Unless you want to lose your eyes, skin and gun parts.)
P.

rowa

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

For starters, copper sulphate is not used in the hot (nitro) bluing process. The main chemicals used are sodium and potassium nitrates; the process is highly dangerous because of the heat generated, which can be hot enough to melt the silver-solder on the ribs of antique guns. As the stuff boils any droplet can cause serious damage to skin, fabric, etc. and the steam from overheating can condense causing similar. Temperature is critical, too hot and the process will work too fast and screw up the metal, temp. too low and the process will not work. It is not a job for an amateur, to do it properly you need too much equipment for a one-off job.
Anyone contemplating a hot-blue job should buy the books, study them, read them again and should not depend on any BB for advice. (Unless you want to lose your eyes, skin and gun parts.)
P.

For starters it is , nitric acid 10ml, copper sulphate 10 grams , distilled water 40 ml , i have used this formula and it works well , this concoction was and as far as i know still is used by a chap called des barnes who is an ex james purdey and churchill gunsmith , its not a commercial product , you go to a chemist and ask them to make it up for you.

The process used is called the slow rust process and takes time , the only heat used is the boiling water which the barrels etc are immersed in to heat them, when the barrels are degreased and hot enough the above formula is swabbed on and then left to rust in a humid area for about a day , the rust is brushed
off with very fine 0000 wire wool and the process repeated for several days until you are happy with the finish, the barrels should be waxed when finished.
The salt bath method is used also ,but i have used a salt bath once in industry and never again.

Double Barrel

FISMA
I had a few sets of damascus barrels to refinish and did some research, thought I might do it myself, for a variety of reasons it never happened.
Something I forgot to mention, the professionals prefer "rain water" or distilled over tap.
Read the whole piece, part one is prep and part two is advanced prep
http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/barrel_brown_inst.htm
Mostly for Damascus but good information.
http://www.damascus-barrels.com/Finish_Restore.html

Tackleberrywho

I used to blacken engine parts, first we shot blasted with a shot blaster (kinda like a tumble dryer that went boom every few seconds)

If cleaning oil anything Alcohol works best as it evaporates at room temp, and then DI water

D-ionised water is used in all corrosive applications as it will not react with the corrosive.

If it only is a project
http://www.blackfast.com/


And not a prised possession blackfast was simple and effective to do.

In the states I'm sure some autoparts shop could get it done

pedroeibar1

Double Barrel wrote: »

FISMA
I had a few sets of damascus barrels to refinish and did some research, thought I might do it myself, for a variety of reasons it never happened.
Something I forgot to mention, the professionals prefer "rain water" or distilled over tap.
Read the whole piece, part one is prep and part two is advanced prep
http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/barrel_brown_inst.htm
Mostly for Damascus but good information.
http://www.damascus-barrels.com/Finish_Restore.html

Rowa,
I stand over my comments. CuSO4 has no place in hot nitro bluing. The recipe you gave is not hot nitro.

DB
The Laurel Mountain site you linked to is for browning, not bluing, (different process).
The Damascus Barrels site (owned/run by the Rev. Drew Hause) has the recipe as prescribed by the late Dr. Oscar Gaddy, who was among the world's leading authorities on blueing/browning and, incidentally, on case colours. OG's recipe is about half way down the page, just after the photos. (and no CuSO4 )

As for other suggestions for shot-blasting and blackening, fine if you have a cheapo gun and will put up with a cheapo finish. And acetone is best for removing oil.
Rs
P.

Tackleberrywho

Acetone will still remain if used to remove oil, acetone is removed with 100% IPA (alcohol).

Acetone could cause a colour/discolouration if still present when applying corrosive material to blacken.

pedroeibar1

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Acetone will still remain if used to remove oil, acetone is removed with 100% IPA (alcohol).

Acetone could cause a colour/discolouration if still present when applying corrosive material to blacken.

Anything left on the metal will interfere with the rusting process. Tap water has chlorine, etc., etc. Yes IPA is great for cleaning but it is not the same as alcohol, it is isopropyl alcohol, has a different structure, does diffrent things to alcohol and acetone is its metabolite. I'm not getting into a chemistry class on it.

My main point is that to do a proper hot nitro blue job on ONE gun is a major task, not to be undertaken lightly and involves all sorts of very nasty chemicals. Most people build a humidity cabinet and do several barrels at once.

Rs
P.

Double Barrel

Pedro
Slow Rust Bluing/Blacking. I never made reference to a hot process.

Scroll down the Laurel Mountain page (Read the whole piece, part one is prep and part two is advanced prep), Directions for Rust Bluing.

The glass media suggestion was to remove the old blue finish and any old dried gunk. Professionals use it quite often on high end barrels and it does not damage the metal, and the final prep is with fine (800 grit) paper (wet or dry your choice).

BTW Dr Gaddy was using a slow rust process.

Tackleberrywho

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Anything left on the metal will interfere with the rusting process. Tap water has chlorine, etc., etc. Yes IPA is great for cleaning but it is not the same as alcohol, it is isopropyl alcohol, has a different structure, does diffrent things to alcohol and acetone is its metabolite. I'm not getting into a chemistry class on it.

My main point is that to do a proper hot nitro blue job on ONE gun is a major task, not to be undertaken lightly and involves all sorts of very nasty chemicals. Most people build a humidity cabinet and do several barrels at once.

Rs
P.

Touché, yes I prefer a drop of ether alcohol over IPA any day .
FISMA did say it was not an expensive firearm, and they way I prescribe with the correct PPE FISMA could do himself.

He has the background in the science area so it would not be Alien to him.

Double Barrel

PedroE1 words of caution should be taken seriously.
The chemicals used in these processes are powerful.
Read the labels carefully.
Something else to keep in mind is that any of these chemicals can/will give off fumes. Sometimes the fumes are visible and sometimes they are not, however, fumes will contaminate most everything !
Some can and will spontaneously combust.
Metals will rust or become coated with scale, anything made of cloth will simply turn to dust.

Keep the lid on the bottle, jar of can unless you are actually using the stuff in the container.
Excellent VENTILATION is a prerequisite ! !
Use a respirator when required.
Be Safe

rowa

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Rowa,
I stand over my comments. CuSO4 has no place in hot nitro bluing. The recipe you gave is not hot nitro.

DB
The Laurel Mountain site you linked to is for browning, not bluing, (different process).
The Damascus Barrels site (owned/run by the Rev. Drew Hause) has the recipe as prescribed by the late Dr. Oscar Gaddy, who was among the world's leading authorities on blueing/browning and, incidentally, on case colours. OG's recipe is about half way down the page, just after the photos. (and no CuSO4 )

As for other suggestions for shot-blasting and blackening, fine if you have a cheapo gun and will put up with a cheapo finish. And acetone is best for removing oil.

Rs
P.

Ok its not hot nitro bluing that the copper sulphate is used in but it is used in the hot "slow rust" process , these are professional processes but of the two i'd think the slow rust is the easiest to do , i have done it myself and the results are great and all you really need is a small trough of boiling water that the barrels can be immersed in . The temperature of the nitro salt bath is much higher to the best of my knowledge and i think a bit too dangerous for home use . Anyway both of these processes are streets ahead of the cold blue i tried.

pedroeibar1

Double Barrel wrote: »

Pedro
Slow Rust Bluing/Blacking. I never made reference to a hot process.

You are quite right DB, I should have been more precise in my comments.
It is surprising that many shooters do not realise that barrel blue is really a controlled form of rust, used to prevent 'nasty' rust from doing harm. I regard the tubes of goo & stuff for home use as being OK for a small scratch, but not suitable for a bigger job. I’m a big fan of a really deep best blue finish and achieving that depends both on the process used and the quality of the steel.

I agree with you on the 800 grit (P1500) but remain an advocate of P2000, using a wet sanding process. I hate wire wool for barrel or stock finishing and would not let it near any of my guns. What many amateurs do not realize is that the depth of finish depends both on the preparation and the steel, as different alloys give different blues. This can have a nasty visual effect on screws, etc, if all are not original. Mild steel will become almost black, strongly alloyed steel will be mostly dark blue and hardened high carbon steel will appear mostly dark brown or reddish. If the blueing solution has been used several times, the finished colour possibly will have a greenish tinge to it.

Where everyone is in agreement is that the parts to be finished must be completely free of any grease or other impurities or the finish will be uneven, with spots of different colour.:eek:
Rs
P.

FISMA

Thanks for all of the suggestions lads. I'll have to check out the Black Fast - might be an option.

I think what Pedro and others have said about hot bluing has really put me off of the idea. Without a proper respirator and ventilation system, the work sounds dangerous.

I could probably have the barrel blued for less by a pro for less than what it would cost me to hot blue in time and money.

Again, it's a labor of love. I really want to try my luck at bluing. I suppose I will try cold bluing.

Question
If you make a total b@ll$ of the job, is it easy to strip the barrel back to naked metal?

Another problem I should have mentioned and another reason why I don't want to pay for a professional job, is that the barrel has slight pitting towards the muzzle.

Thanks again for all of the help.

Never play with your health, or take it for granted.

Slan!

Double Barrel

FISMA wrote: »

T

Question
If you make a total b@ll$ of the job, is it easy to strip the barrel back to naked metal?
It is a forgiving process, easy enough to start over

Another problem I should have mentioned and another reason why I don't want to pay for a professional job, is that the barrel has slight pitting towards the muzzle.
The pitting will need to be dealt with in the first round of prep. If it is badly (deep) pitted it may not be safe to shoot, consult a gunsmith, mild pits can be sanded/filed out. The muzzle on most SXS is fairly thin, be careful

Thanks again for all of the help.

Never play with your health, or take it for granted.

Slan!

Good luck

FISMA

It's just a mild bit of surface pitting, just enough to ensure the bluing will not mirror.

The barrel is more than thick. It is an blackpowder firearm. Very heavy barrel.

rowa

Just be careful you don't polish off any proof marks etc , apart from being a legal requirement they are also a clue to its history , maker etc.

Double Barrel

FISMA wrote: »

It's just a mild bit of surface pitting, just enough to ensure the bluing will not mirror.

The barrel is more than thick. It is an blackpowder firearm. Very heavy barrel.

Sand or file away.
Think of it this way, gunsmiths are paid to drill holes in the muzzle of barrels for some shooters.

FISMA

rowa wrote: »

Just be careful you don't polish off any proof marks etc , apart from being a legal requirement they are also a clue to its history , maker etc.

I wish she was worthy of such consideration. However, it is just an old kit gun.

In the states they sell kits you buy and do some finishing work.

Let's just say that someone didn't do the bluing as they were supposed to and now the barrel is slightly surface pitted.

Another Question
What kind of final sanding works best on the barrel when it comes to bluing - the finer the better? The bluing doesn't act like a primer, correct? It will show any surface defects so, I would assume, the finest "sanding" possible, correct? How about a whirl on a polishing wheel?

pedroeibar1

rowa wrote: »

........... The temperature of the nitro salt bath is much higher to the best of my knowledge and i think a bit too dangerous for home use . .....

Agree 100%, also with your comment on proofmarks.

Also agree with DB on it being easy to redo (althoughI would not describe it as 'forgiving, as an error will cost you an eye/limb/face;))
The steel used in an antique gun probably is unsuitable to nitrobluing anyway, even if FISMA wanted to do it.

Just to round off the topic –
The chemical make-up of the nitro bluing solution is sodium hydroxide/caustic soda (NaOH), sodium nitrate (NaNO3) and water. Add the premixed ingredients carefully / slowly to the boiling water because the ensuing chemical reaction generates heat and rapidly accelerates the boiling. Keep adding until the boiling point of the solution reaches 140 to 145 degrees C. (N.B. It is not a good idea to use the wife’s jam-making thermometer for this.) The solution is extremely corrosive and when it boils the steam will form droplets that are hazardous, so don't overheat it, just keep it hot.

The parts to be blued are immersed in the boiling solution for 5 to 10 minutes (no more or the finish will become reddish). The temperature must not exceed 150 degs C or the parts will rust much too quickly and become red. Temperatures below 135 degrees C and the process will not work. Barrel plugs also are necessary. If either top or bottom rib is not fully sealed the solution will leak into and fill the gap, the residual chemical is hard to displace and some will remain in the space between the barrels thus causing pitting that cannot be seen and which will be dangerous.. The sodium hydroxide will dissolve any aluminium or zinc if they have been used in a rib repair and cause hydrogen gas; Sodium nitrate is sometimes used as an oxidizer in black powder, so get the temps too wrong and you create oxygen.... combine that with the hydrogen and you would have a BOOM that safety goggles, gloves and protective clothing would not withstand.:eek::eek:

That's why I might have been a bit heavy on the 'not for amateurs' advice.

Rs
P.

pedroeibar1

FISMA wrote: »

Another Question
What kind of final sanding works best on the barrel when it comes to bluing - the finer the better? The bluing doesn't act like a primer, correct? It will show any surface defects so, I would assume, the finest "sanding" possible, correct? How about a whirl on a polishing wheel?

Posts crossed ....
If your gun has an octagonal barrel it will be a difficult one to finish, as the 'corners' will take too much of the rubbing.
Do everything by hand, a polishing wheel is too 'industrial.'
Keeping it untechnical, the blue is a type of stable rust - it prevents 'nastier' rust from forming, so it is the finish, not a primer. It will show surface defects (such as those caused by shot blasting) so treat the barrel as you would treat a stock with sanding - if there are deeper scratched use heavier grit paper, working your way down to the finest and using the finest during the bluing process. Also use paper glued to a small block of timber to minimise sanding the angles.
Rather you than me;)
Rs
P.

Zenner

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Agree 100%, also with your comment on proofmarks.

Also agree with DB on it being easy to redo (althoughI would not describe it as 'forgiving, as an error will cost you an eye/limb/face;))
The steel used in an antique gun probably is unsuitable to nitrobluing anyway, even if FISMA wanted to do it.

Just to round off the topic –
The chemical make-up of the nitro bluing solution is sodium hydroxide/caustic soda (NaOH), sodium nitrate (NaNO3) and water. Add the premixed ingredients carefully / slowly to the boiling water because the ensuing chemical reaction generates heat and rapidly accelerates the boiling. Keep adding until the boiling point of the solution reaches 140 to 145 degrees C. (N.B. It is not a good idea to use the wife’s jam-making thermometer for this.) The solution is extremely corrosive and when it boils the steam will form droplets that are hazardous, so don't overheat it, just keep it hot.

The parts to be blued are immersed in the boiling solution for 5 to 10 minutes (no more or the finish will become reddish). The temperature must not exceed 150 degs C or the parts will rust much too quickly and become red. Temperatures below 135 degrees C and the process will not work. Barrel plugs also are necessary. If either top or bottom rib is not fully sealed the solution will leak into and fill the gap, the residual chemical is hard to displace and some will remain in the space between the barrels thus causing pitting that cannot be seen and which will be dangerous.. The sodium hydroxide will dissolve any aluminium or zinc if they have been used in a rib repair and cause hydrogen gas; Sodium nitrate is sometimes used as an oxidizer in black powder, so get the temps too wrong and you create oxygen.... combine that with the hydrogen and you would have a BOOM that safety goggles, gloves and protective clothing would not withstand.:eek::eek:

That's why I might have been a bit heavy on the 'not for amateurs' advice.

Rs
P.

Hi, just a quick question in relation to the above discussion. Can you give any good suggestions as to a Chemist in Dublin that one might be able to buy the necessary chemicals that you would need. I was doing some research on Bluing Chemicals and found that its quite hard to get your hands on.

gunhappy_ie

Zenner wrote: »

Hi, just a quick question in relation to the above discussion. Can you give any good suggestions as to a Chemist in Dublin that one might be able to buy the necessary chemicals that you would need. I was doing some research on Bluing Chemicals and found that its quite hard to get your hands on.

I looked into this a while ago, a chemist wont give the quantities needed (if theyll give it at all) so chemical companies are who your looking for.

Fortunatly/Unfortunatly, they wont supply either unless your a registered company.

Its pretty serious stuff to be getting into and not something that you can cod yourself that youll do a god job in your back yard.

Zenner

gunhappy_ie wrote: »

I looked into this a while ago, a chemist wont give the quantities needed (if theyll give it at all) so chemical companies are who your looking for.

Fortunatly/Unfortunatly, they wont supply either unless your a registered company.

No Problem Gunhappy, its been a long time since I did it as I was 13 years old when I did my first bluing job. Its true, its not a DIY job. The guys also forgot to add that you will loose about 2 stone in weight under the conditions as well. I was lucky to have a good gunsmith stand over my work and keep an eye on me. I have seen every possible problem arise from the process, ribs lifting, contamination with oil etc.. and yes you have to start all over again. I was just looking back into the idea as I got a great amount of excitement when I seen the finished project and again not forgetting I was only 13 at the time. So somewhere, out there, a single shot Eagle rifle with my bluing job on it.