CID Entitlement Question

French.teacher

I have read the various circulars, articles in ASTIR and posts on boards.ie, but want to verify something before I accept my fourth contract as it seems to be the all-important one.

I am at the end of my third contract with the same school. My first contract was RPT. My second and third contracts were "Fixed term contract". Although I can't seem to find it anywhere on my contract, it was to replace two colleagues on job-share. As far as I understand it, if the contract in my fourth year "is covering for another teacher absent on an approved scheme of leave of absence and this was set out as an objective ground in writing in the previous contract " then I will be deemed eligible for a CID in my fifth year.

Does that mean, then, that if like my second and third contract, my fourth one does not "set this out as an objective ground in writing" that I am entitled to CID?

Also, I still can't seem to find anybody who can give me a specific answer to the question that if I can get my own hours (concessionary) in my fourth year, am I entitled to CID in my fifth year in spite of my taking job-share hours in previous years??

Help! :eek:

vallo

Not sure if I can be of much help to you, but my understanding is that years where you were effectively doing someone else's hours don't count when it comes to tallying your 4 years continuous service for a CID. I was in a similar position for a year, on a TWT contract while two colleagues worked part time, and wasn't able to count this. If in doubt, ask the union.
Also, when you say "this was set out as an objective ground in writing in the previous contract" - what do you mean exactly. Did the school give you a contract signed by the principal? If so, then wouldn't it be too easy for a principal to accidentally leave out this statement, so that they can add more CIDs to their staffroom in future years.
Maybe I've completely misunderstood your post. I'm sure someone else can answer more definitively.

rainbowtrout

Well i suppose the main question isn't really about your fourth year, it's about your second and third year. You say that your contracts for those two years were to cover two colleagues on job share. I'm assuming that you are teaching 22 hours and each of them were both teaching 11??? Or did you cover one job share in your second year and then a different job share in your third year?

How exactly are you 'covering' them? Are they both on sick/maternity/unpaid leave or career break? If so, the hours aren't yours and you won't have 4 consecutive years of hours which are your own at the end of next year. Also the fact that those teachers are on job share means that they could come back from job share at any stage and have to get their hours back. That means there would be no hours for you.

Also if your fourth contract does say 'if you are covering for another teacher on approved leave of absence....' then the hours in your fourth year aren't yours either and I can't see how you could get a CID from them.

Have the job sharing teachers left the school permanently or will they be returning?

Is it two teachers going on job share with different subjects so they are both reduced to 11 hours each and a new teacher (you) is employed to teach the other 11 hours for each of them?

French.teacher

Hi all,

Thanks for the comments. There appear to be a lot of different thoughts and opinion on this tricky issue, which makes it really hard to know what the answer is. However... I think I might have found an answer... maybe!!

Since I wrote my question on the forum, I did a good bit of research and spoke to some people in the union. Apparently it's back to that issue of the fourth year being the critical year and really the only one that counts. As I am due to get my fourth contract, this is the one that must give me a minimum of 18 concessionary hours ie not replacing anybody on sick, maternity, job share, secondment etc. According to an article in ASTIR, regardless of what hours I had in the first three years, as long as I can get my own hours in my fourth year (which I'm hoping my Principal will do as it's such an important year for my CID), I am entitled to it.

For anybody in the same position, it's worth reading the Astir article (pg 18 of Astir May 2009 issue) as it cites a landmark case where a teacher in a very similar position to me. The BOM denied her request for CID as two of her four years were replacing a teacher on approved leave. This decision was overturned at an adjudication and she was awarded a CID. The link to the article is below. Although the article does not say so explicitly, I believe that it's because during her fourth contract she had concessionary hours (ie not replacing anyone).
http://www.asti.ie/uploads/media/Astir_May_01.pdf

In any case, I feel like i have a little hope now, as long as I can get similar conditions in my next contract (as long as we don't get a redeployment!!!!). Will keep you updated. If anybody else can tell me that this is or isn't the case, I'd love to hear

floating voter

If next years contract says you are not being offered a cid then you wont get one.

You are exrtremely unlikely to get one from concessionary hours. These are hours that are granted year to year and as such are not guaranteed. Your school would have objective grounds to refuse a cid.

It depends on ypor principal. They have a lot of power in thrse cases

TheDriver

your starting point here is getting a contract for your 4th year, with redeployment etc you may not even get this

rainbowtrout

I posted about that particular case a few weeks back. The teacher did get her CID but, the teacher she replaced had retired and under those circumstances essentially what happens is that the hours are back dated to the teacher who was teaching them. If that teacher had come back off leave it could have been a different case.

One of the teachers working with me is in his third year. His first year was covering a sick leave but the teacher retired at the end of the school year and never came back so that first year will be counted as his own hours for CID purposes.

Has the teacher you are replacing retired/resigned?

vallo

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I posted about that particular case a few weeks back. The teacher did get her CID but, the teacher she replaced had retired and under those circumstances essentially what happens is that the hours are back dated to the teacher who was teaching them. If that teacher had come back off leave it could have been a different case.

That's very interesting. In the article they mention the fact that the other teacher resigned, but it doesn't seem to be a factor in the Adjudicator's statement that
“I do not interpret the Transitional Agreements as discounting any year when a teacher was covering for a teacher on leave of absence from the requisite four-year period”. Is there anywhere you can get the full statement?

floating voter

look in labour court.ie or search rights commissioners decisions. there are loads of examples of fixed term work cases.

French.teacher

floating voter wrote: »

If next years contract says you are not being offered a cid then you wont get one.

You are exrtremely unlikely to get one from concessionary hours. These are hours that are granted year to year and as such are not guaranteed. Your school would have objective grounds to refuse a cid.

It depends on ypor principal. They have a lot of power in thrse cases

I spoke to the Union rep for my area today and she said that if I can get concessionary hours then I would get my CID. What she advised me was to get as many as I can, even if it's as little as 4 or 6 because that will get me a CID, albeit not on full hours, which I can then work up. Does anybody know if that is not the case?

French.teacher

floating voter wrote: »

If next years contract says you are not being offered a cid then you wont get one.

You are exrtremely unlikely to get one from concessionary hours. These are hours that are granted year to year and as such are not guaranteed. Your school would have objective grounds to refuse a cid.

It depends on ypor principal. They have a lot of power in thrse cases

So if it does NOT say that I am not being offered a CID, can I assume that I may??? Is that what the Dept circular (55/2008 amendment) means by "this was set out as an objective ground in writing in the previous contract"

floating voter

If your contract in year four does not have the words 'you are not being offered a cid at this point' or 'subject to DES funding' or similar limiting phrases then you have a good chance of a cid and what you did in the first 3 years is not important.

In reality all principals and vecs are now regularly advised by their management bodies to include these words in all fixed term contracts.

It would be extremely unusual in 2011/2012 academic year after 6-7 years of teachers getting cids that you would get a contract for concessionary hours that does not contain some formula of words limiting your entitlement to a cid.

I hope for your sake you do but concessionary hours are year by year.