Multinational Call Centres

doranusan

I have been working for a large multinational corporation for the last year and a half. Last year they announced the creation of about 600 jobs. The jobs were mostly call centre jobs.

This month 18 people were made redundant from one of their departments as the jobs were moving to a cheaper country (Philippines). 600-18 is still a nice number of jobs to be creating, but anyway....

The 18 being let go were given a month notice and told to train in their Filipino replacements by phone. Some of the guys being let go were quite experienced, some were in the job a few weeks. The employer clearly had no concern for the skill of the more experienced staff, as they were given no internal offers or special treatment.

This type of move is probably common enough in Ireland. The work being done at this company is very clearly defined and largely unskilled beyond basic troubleshooting and communication. You might say that the only thing that experienced staff have over inexperienced staff is their aptitude for procedures which are almost entireley company specific.

Given the ease with which this type of employer can just up and leave, and the fact that the unemployed workers in the wake of their offshoring decisions tend to really just be expensive versions of Singaporean/Filipino script readers, would it not be worth the governments time to be taking a look at the secondary benefits that some of these foreign direct investors' jobs have? By this I mean, taking an honest look at the sort of work being done and not just by what length will it shorten the dole queue.

I suspect one of the main reasons for these loopholes in the first place was to encourage the setting up of jobs for our most skilled workers in the R&D departments of the cream of the global crop. It's all well and good to cheer for team Ireland netting a few tax scores through r&d loopholes, but it is the workers in these places that get screwed because the work that their employers are claiming to be doing is not enhancing skills or providing a secondary benefit to them.

I've read several posts complaining about grade inflation and how uncompetitive our graduates are amongst OECD countries. But consider which of the following you would you prefer were you an employer at the moment with very little room for maneouvre:
- Someone who just aced their finals after 4 years in a college you know to be tough and honest
- Someone who went to a college with inflated grades but had 4 years worth of employer references singing and dancing about their skills and general contribution in previous real world, paid roles?
- Mix and match the two combinations with different combinations of experience and even education performance, and even go as far as to ask yourself at what point are the two even equal.

It's not easy really, and in truth you'd probably prefer the good work experience over any college grades. Where do people get the experience now though? Do people even want high end skilled work? There needs to be a culture of skilled work in the country before people will choose to develop skills. During the boom, it was cool to have skills related to construction, back when real men barely needed leaving certs.

I'm not saying kick the multinationals out either. They're an essential part of creating this culture, but we need to be getting better jobs out of them.

To illustrate, Pfizer benefit from having other pharmaceutical companies in Ireland. It does a number of things to encourage the development of the kind of workforce they need ie scientists, engineers and probably all sorts of specialised accountants that know pharma industry inside out etc. A lot of students have been jumping on the science bandwagon in recent years because of this.

Who benefits from multinational call centres? Other call centre companies and multinationals that employ call centre staff such as say EA/Bioware, Mcaffee, Paypal, ebay, Google. With the creation of call centre jobs, there is a propogation of a call centre culture. This call centre culture is quite vibrant at the moment, throughout 2010, whenever a barrage of new jobs was announced, the spin was that the knowledge economy was starting to thrive.

This is damaging to the economy because of the risk associated with easy offshoring, and the fact that in most cases the jobs are leading to more call centre work and away from things that could be used as economic assets such as new software products or businesses. Would you study computer science in college if you saw that the trend was so heavily toward call centre work?

If you agree and think that something needs to change regarding the type of work being attracted, what would you do to change/improve it. Otherwise, do you think there are positives to having call centre jobs set up here at all?

ei.sdraob

doranusan wrote: »

Otherwise, do you think there are positives to having call centre jobs set up here at all?

Jobs are better than no jobs.

Sponge Bob

Sounds like IBM, jobs come and go all the time in operations like that.

SBWife

Scariest thing I've read recently was from Gordon Brown's recent book:

My abiding memory of India is of a highly ambitious young people studying day and night and all weekend to make the most of their talents.

We'd need a serious cultural shift to compete with that - certainly wouldn't be the impression one would get after spending some time at many of our third level institutions.

_Kaiser_

I'd have to agree with much of the OP.

Having worked for 2 of the big IT multinationals here in the past (over 8 years between them), what you do for them as an employee is almost entirely specific to that company. The procedures, the products - almost none of that is transferable to a new employer. Sure you'll pick up some general skills (in the case of IT maybe things like hardware troubleshooting, basic Windows support and so on) but most of what you'll deal with will be proprietary platforms that are only of any use to you as long as you stay with that company.

Also, despite the initial attraction that these are big global companies with endless advancement and training opportunities, the reality is that many of the staff won't stay more than a year before quitting for something else (or not having contracts renewed) and the only "training" I ever got was for (again) proprietary hardware and software products.
Equally for most of my colleagues - any industry-standard certification they got (MCSE etc) they studied for and paid for themselves, and only in a few rare cases did they get any sort of financial support towards exam fees (usually with a stipulation that they would guarantee not to leave before x time, or repay the money to the company in full).

You might think that after 10 years with such a company that opportunities would open up, but very few of my friends have moved to say a US or UK division - sure they might have moved internally or to a different site in Ireland/Dublin, but after a while even that dries up and you simply stay where you are because you know that you're effectively unemployable elsewhere.

There's also no loyalty to staff (although they expect it from you) insofar as the company can and will close or move an entire division at minimal notice. If you're lucky you'll be able to apply for another vacancy internally but that's not guaranteed either.

So, while yes I suppose in the short-term any job is better than none, in the longer term as these companies move to other, cheaper, places all we'll have left is thousands of staff who won't be able to deal with the diverse enviornments common in smaller organisations, and (with the way this country is going) little opportunities to change that.

fly_agaric

SBWife wrote: »

We'd need a serious cultural shift to compete with that.

We would need to further reduce wages of low paid workers & dismantle our social welfare safety nets. Then we can have just as poor and desperate "poor" people as Brazil or India say.

We might also need to become a much authoritarian state (ala Russia, China) to truly "compete". Then the govt. can decree that something is to be done and it happens - e.g. shell to sea people or others who obstruct what the state or those with power & wealth see as "progress" can quickly vanish into Garda dungeons & Gulags, or end up 6ft underground).

These "cultural shifts" should definitely provide those who somehow make it to college with an incentive to study their arses off.

Cookie_Monster

SBWife wrote: »

Scariest thing I've read recently was from Gordon Brown's recent book:

We'd need a serious cultural shift to compete with that - certainly wouldn't be the impression one would get after spending some time at many of our third level institutions.

I've trained a few of those "highly ambitious young people studying day and night and all weekend to make the most of their talents" and lets just say their standard of education is nowhere near what we have and it very narrowly focused into learning very set ways with no flexibility nor problem solving on the part of the individual at all.

For the likes of call centres etc it's fine as its a fairly fixed set of issues and can be easily bumped up the chain to superiors if gets complicated but for more advanced stuff they still don't get taught in the correct way to handle problems and varying outcomes.

Fratton Fred

I use Indian outsourcing companies regularly, the like of Wipro, TCS, Infosys etc.

The best thing about them is that they do exactly what you tell them to do.

The worst thing about them is that they do exactly what you tell them to do.

shoegirl

doranusan wrote: »

This type of move is probably common enough in Ireland. The work being done at this company is very clearly defined and largely unskilled beyond basic troubleshooting and communication. You might say that the only thing that experienced staff have over inexperienced staff is their aptitude for procedures which are almost entireley company specific.

Given the ease with which this type of employer can just up and leave, and the fact that the unemployed workers in the wake of their offshoring decisions tend to really just be expensive versions of Singaporean/Filipino script readers, would it not be worth the governments time to be taking a look at the secondary benefits that some of these foreign direct investors' jobs have? By this I mean, taking an honest look at the sort of work being done and not just by what length will it shorten the dole queue.

You are exactly right, and you don't point out the obvious: that at very low pay rates, many of the jobs "created" by these companies are almost 100% paid for by the taxpayer.

The reason many of these were originally setup in Ireland was because Ireland was a popular end location for multilingual mobile staff, lots of people travelling from France, Germany etc for work. Lots of the call centres set up at the end of the 90s onward were multilingual rather than monolingual as obviously these are impossible to offshore.

However I think the key reason call centres were a popular area for investment is, as you quite rightly point out, that relatively few skills are needed to get a job in one, so it is a good entry level job for anybody without vocational training.

The problem I see now is that in reality, a big mixture of people got jobs in call centres, some very skilled and some basically unskilled. While both gathered experience, many of the lower skilled people are now hitting dead ends or long term unemployment, because there is really nowhere for them to go.

You are right on the pharma question also - these companies get a lot out of PhDs working for them.

That said, a number of people got their foot in the door in IT or business services through call centres (including myself), the problem is that without self study which is almost impossible to fund through the very small wages paid, you won't really progress. I basically saved every last cent and put myself through technical certifications and then a business degree. Without that I think I would probably be in limbo land somewhere.

shoegirl

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Also, despite the initial attraction that these are big global companies with endless advancement and training opportunities, the reality is that many of the staff won't stay more than a year before quitting for something else (or not having contracts renewed) and the only "training" I ever got was for (again) proprietary hardware and software products.
Equally for most of my colleagues - any industry-standard certification they got (MCSE etc) they studied for and paid for themselves, and only in a few rare cases did they get any sort of financial support towards exam fees (usually with a stipulation that they would guarantee not to leave before x time, or repay the money to the company in full).

You might think that after 10 years with such a company that opportunities would open up, but very few of my friends have moved to say a US or UK division - sure they might have moved internally or to a different site in Ireland/Dublin, but after a while even that dries up and you simply stay where you are because you know that you're effectively unemployable elsewhere.

There's also no loyalty to staff (although they expect it from you) insofar as the company can and will close or move an entire division at minimal notice. If you're lucky you'll be able to apply for another vacancy internally but that's not guaranteed either.

I would argue that there is a "loyalty" to some staff but only at senior level. There are a couple of shells of formerly vibrant IT concerns in Cork (both employing 100+ at one stage) made up of the last few senior managers who basically sucked enough c***s to keep themselves in well paid jobs when all of their staff were laid off (seriously, in one of them there are HR recruiters with nobody to recruit, and 3 or 4 managers with no reports!!)

Much of the problem is that many of the call centres set up here were standalone concerns with no other functions to speak of, beyond those needed to keep things going - maybe a HR person, one or two directors, an accountant maybe. So there is no progression.

You do mention one major menace in this sector which is unfair impositions on staff forcing them to pay for compulsory training if they leave. A few years ago I was basically signed up for a course and told I had to do it. Next thing a sheet of paper appeared telling me I had to stay for x number of months. I asked senior management if this course was compulsory or not but got no good answer. As it happened the course led to a useful qualification so I went and did it anyway.

However, I have heard of many concerns (two in Dublin anyway) where staff are billed or deducted from final wages if they leave within a certain length for the cost of their induction training. Quite simply this should be very illegal if the training was essential for the staff to do their jobs.

I'd do the following:
1. I'd reduce state supports for lower paid positions and refuse to fund any salary over a certain level if state supports are simply used to fund higher paid salaries.
2. I'd demand a progressive approach, and a multidepartmental approach, insisting on having some kind of career progression beyond the initial call centre - for example into shared services or other business activities.
3. I'd criminalise the unethical practice of charging employees for initial training.
4. I'd look for more engagement with local companies. Many of these companies produce employees with little knowledge of the Irish market. I would try to get them to engage in some way as employees can easily lose touch with the local culture in favour of a global approach to culture.
5. Manufacturing companies have often moved business activities away from making things to other activities. Call centres changing business focus should be doing the same. The factories would not be doing this if there were no pressure from the IDA to do so.

doranusan

5. Manufacturing companies have often moved business activities away from making things to other activities. Call centres changing business focus should be doing the same. The factories would not be doing this if there were no pressure from the IDA to do so.

Wasn't aware of manufacturing companies doing that? Do you have any more information on it or examples?

My fear is that after 10s of years of management and "operations" research, these guys have the low level jobs so clearly defined as to be very damaging to the people doing them. What's bad for people is bad for economic development.

PhatPiggins

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I use Indian outsourcing companies regularly, the like of Wipro, TCS, Infosys etc.

The best thing about them is that they do exactly what you tell them to do.

The worst thing about them is that they do exactly what you tell them to do.

Try using a Chinese outsourcing company

They do exactly what saves them the most money and don't tell you until you've received shipment

Nothingbetter2d

stream global services are letting go over 20 night staff in favour or cheaper Filipinos, to do salesforce support.... yes www.salesforce.com outsource their support to stream global services

Also it looks like alot of the day staff are going to be let go soon too.

How does one compete against this? Irish wage €20,500 + 8% nightshift allowance vs €2,000 - €3,000 per year in Philippines?

they too have to train their replacements...which just adds insult to injury

for those of you that do night shifts and use salesforce..... prepare for scripted support.

mariaalice

There is a documentary on UTV at the moment saying the exact opposite and that manufacturing and call canter work is returning from china and India to the UK at a huge rate.

the_syco

mariaalice wrote: »

There is a documentary on UTV at the moment saying the exact opposite and that manufacturing and call canter work is returning from china and India to the UK at a huge rate.

Sounds like the USA a year or two ago. Their support went to India/etc, but came back when the companies realised that they were losing customers as they were unable to understand the support in India/etc.

_Kaiser_

the_syco wrote: »

Sounds like the USA a year or two ago. Their support went to India/etc, but came back when the companies realised that they were losing customers as they were unable to understand the support in India/etc.

Also the rigid "from the script" approach taken by staff in those countries .. throw anything at them that's even slightly off it and it is like talking to one of those automated response systems.

Anyone who's had to call 3's "customer care" will know exactly what I mean