Is it easier to be negative than positive with us Irish?

master-t

Something I have been wondering about for a while.

With a lot of Irish fans - across most sports, but mainly football, it seems easier to look at negatives and highlight these than to pinpoint our positives.

I myself am included at times in this group I have to be honest. However, I do try to counteract a negative with a positive spin (if possible).

Mainly I am referring to the Ireland managers and squads over the past decade or so.

I was re-reading some threads on Big Jack and Trap's selection for this upcoming game against Macedonia. I think it is (heart-breakingly) funny to read some fans opinions on these debates.

I remember the lashing Mick got after the Keane incident and his reputation was never really the same after it, with the media and fans getting on him for everything (the booing of the Irish fans sticks in my mind along with Dunphy's campaign to rid him of his position) - eventually leading to 2 poor performances and his eventual resignation. The man who got us to 13th in the World Fifa rankings btw. Now, some 9 years later, probably the same fans are calling for him to be their number one choice as next Ireland manager.

I liked McCarthy and can say that I was disappointed with his treatment and sad to see him leave, we have never fully recovered that style of play and form we had under him.

But what annoys me, is at the time, why were we not highlighting all the positives? Instead it was - this was crap, he dealt with Keane terrible, he can't handle world class players etc etc.

Jack was the same. At the time, pundits and media were on his back for playing poor football, not utilising our pool of talent, we could have made it to the semi finals in '90 if he played this way or that way......not highlighting the positives of we just qualified for 3 back to back tournaments and put Ireland of the football map.

Now Trap’s turn . Kilbane, O'Dea, Whelan, Andrews....where is Reid, Ireland, Carr....poor communication, treatment of McCarthy etc etc. Plenty of negatives. But what about the talent we have at our disposal? The fact we have a system the players know, players know where to play and how to play the system - unlike Stan's era where he just tried to play the best players, but in no real system.

We can't have everything. The players, the football, the formation. But what we could do, is get on board, getting behind the players and manager for when it counts.

For anyone at the infamous France match, you will have noticed an atmosphere not experienced in many years (probably the Holland match) where the whole crowd were behind the players. This was seen with their performances in both legs. But we were robbed. Out come the usual negatives of the players, the communication, the formation and style.

As stated at the beginning of this post, I have been guilty at times of condemning some selection choices, which is your right as a fan to do, express your opinion. But, what is probably more important is to also try and highlight the brighter sides and the positives - as there will always be some.

I am not a professional footballer (there is still a chance Fergie might see me out of breath in a 5 a side though missing sitters ) but I think it must add so much pressure to a game when all they get is grief over this or that.
But perhaps it is an Irish thing, something in our nature.

Why think positive, only to be let down? Instead, think negative with minimal expectations. That way, any decent result will be great and you avoid the risk of being heart broken.

Not for me. I would rather be supportive, run the risk and take the gamble or thrill of being heart broken, as the rewards are much, much better if you succeed.

Not a rant, more of wondering.

J. Marston

I think so. Look at Robbie Keane, he's our record goal scorer, almost always shows up (friendlys & competitive), seems like a down to earth lad too but he gets plenty of stick.
It puzzles me.

Bodhisopha

I don't like us.

Lawrence1895

But at least the Irish supporters have a good reputation abroad

Compared with supporters from other countries, the cops in Germany can take their armchairs out or take a sun bath when Ireland plays a match in Germany

Bounty Hunter

It the same with most nations tbh, always easier to criticise than applaud it seems

bohsman

Without turning this into a slagging match the same applies to peoples opinion of the League of Ireland.

TheDoc

Well its normally based of feelings and opinions.

I've no doubt a negetive outlook on both the national team, and its staff and policies by which it selects players, and also the league of ireland.

Its from personal experience for many years, along with obviously experiencing it like many others through telly.

I just don't feel there is many positives in either category. I actually feel the negetivity and critism the team get is very unfair.

We are a very small country with a very poor national league and an average - poor selection of players, we shoudln't be expecting to qualify for major tournaments. Getting to a Euro or a WC would be a massive success for this country.

I'd be interested to hear the positives. I agree with you that the team has gone downhill snice McCarthy left, and the style of football has been awful.

I havnt been a fan of Trapatoni from day one, frowning on his tactics and how his man management which is downright awful.

Look at Robbie Keane, he's our record goal scorer, almost always shows up (friendlys & competitive), seems like a down to earth lad too but he gets plenty of stick

I think it is easy to see how he gets stick to be honest. There is no doubt he used to have some quality. But he is just another waste of space. Spent his career club hoping and listening to those around him saying he was a fantastic striker when in fact he was a bit above average, once his pace left him he got VERY average.

He is definitly not down to earth ( granted from personal experience so will omit) but even his media interviews are drival and full of pony.

His appearance on the late late defending the team was the most cringeworthy and embarrasment thing I've seen on RTE for many a year.

And yet we rely on him, why? Because we simply havnt bothered finding a decent replacement and getting them bed in.

He has the look of a shocking player to play with aswell. I hate this bollox of "Hes a voice in the dressing room and a character" based on the moaning he does ion the pitch I can well envisige an egotistical hot shot having a cry cause he isnt getting a pass put two inches in front of his foot.

Is more destructive with his shouting, diving and moaning and wastefullness then being constructive.

strikers being captains are never good

cson

It's easier to criticise and be pleasantly surprised than expect and be disappointed.

Simples.

tim_holsters

With Trap as manager being negative is the default approach. In all ways.

LeeroyJones

It's a defence mechanism. If things begin to go south, we fall back on our 'I told you so' bandwagon and point the finger at those in charge

gosplan

TheDoc wrote: »

I think it is easy to see how he gets stick to be honest. There is no doubt he used to have some quality. But he is just another waste of space. Spent his career club hoping and listening to those around him saying he was a fantastic striker when in fact he was a bit above average, once his pace left him he got VERY average.

He is definitly not down to earth ( granted from personal experience so will omit) but even his media interviews are drival and full of pony.

His appearance on the late late defending the team was the most cringeworthy and embarrasment thing I've seen on RTE for many a year.

And yet we rely on him, why? Because we simply havnt bothered finding a decent replacement and getting them bed in.

He has the look of a shocking player to play with aswell. I hate this bollox of "Hes a voice in the dressing room and a character" based on the moaning he does ion the pitch I can well envisige an egotistical hot shot having a cry cause he isnt getting a pass put two inches in front of his foot.

Is more destructive with his shouting, diving and moaning and wastefullness then being constructive.

strikers being captains are never good

A waste of space who was the first to capitalise on the goalie's error last night? Where were the defenders? Where were the other Irish players who people would have us rely on for goals?

Robbie Keane is a waste of space in the same way that Pippo Inzaghi was a waste of space.

I'd imagine the vast majority are positive about Irelands current position tbh.

Being joint top at this stage of the comp is fantastic for Ireland. Only a fool could argue otherwise tbf.

Dunphy is a pundit, he is there to boost ratings. I still find it hard to believe that people take him seriously after all these years.

Dunphy being controversial/going againt the grain = Better ratings for RTE and better publicity for Dunphy(he has a radio priogramme and newspaper columns to think about )

Would it be better if it were like the BBC or worse still Sky where everyone sings to the same tune afraid to say anything controversial ?

I'll have Eamon and Co. everyday of the week thanks.

If anyone is seriously not happy with the way it's going for Ireland atm they need to seriously waken up.

MrStuffins

TheDoc wrote: »

I think it is easy to see how he gets stick to be honest. There is no doubt he used to have some quality. But he is just another waste of space.

The guy has played for Ireland 105 times and has scored 46 times.

Raul played 102 times for Spain and scored 44 times. A ridiculously similar record!

People like you give me a headache they really do!!

Dr.Winston O'Boogie

Irish people as a whole are usually negative about any subject. Sweeping statement but thats the way I see it.

DM_7

niallo24 wrote: »

Irish people as a whole are usually negative about any subject. Sweeping statement but thats the way I see it.

I agree with your Negative opinion of Irish People,

Which proves the point.

tallaghtmick

waits for this to become keane is ****e/keane is deadly and you are a spa thread:pac:

MrStuffins

tallaghtmick wrote: »

waits for this to become keane is ****e/keane is deadly and you are a spa thread:pac:

Whether or not Keane is the best player in the world or not, those who slag him off as "a waste of space" etc are just partaking in sereve clownery!

He's probably the best player we have and has been since roy Keane retired. He's also the best striker this country has ever seen!

He scored the winning goal yesterday and has scored a large number of game winning goals.............

But yeah, a waste of space :rolleyes: I'm just waiting for someone to mention his missus!

Pauleta

MrStuffins wrote: »

Whether or not Keane is the best player in the world or not, those who slag him off as "a waste of space" etc are just partaking in sereve clownery!

He's probably the best player we have and has been since roy Keane retired. He's also the best striker this country has ever seen!

He scored the winning goal yesterday and has scored a large number of game winning goals.............

But yeah, a waste of space :rolleyes: I'm just waiting for someone to mention his missus!

He has been a fine player but the chap is a complete knob. He will never be loved by the Irish public. He will be accepted and liked but never loved because he is a complete knob.

Pauleta

Pauleta wrote: »

He has been a fine player but the chap is a complete knob. He will never be loved by the Irish public. He will be accepted and liked but never loved because he is a complete knob.

Do you know him personally?

I don't really get the Keane hate tbh.

Would it be better to have a "really nice" centre forward who didn't score goals?

Yakult

"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. "

tallaghtmick

MrStuffins wrote: »

Whether or not Keane is the best player in the world or not, those who slag him off as "a waste of space" etc are just partaking in sereve clownery!

He's probably the best player we have and has been since roy Keane retired. He's also the best striker this country has ever seen!

He scored the winning goal yesterday and has scored a large number of game winning goals.............

But yeah, a waste of space :rolleyes: I'm just waiting for someone to mention his missus!

as i said before hes like marmite,people will either love him or hate him:pac:

Pauleta wrote: »

He has been a fine player but the chap is a complete knob. He will never be loved by the Irish public. He will be accepted and liked but never loved because he is a complete knob.

rarnes1 wrote: »

Do you know him personally?

I don't really get the Keane hate tbh.

Would it be better to have a "really nice" centre forward who didn't score goals?

a lot of the keane is a knob stuff came from when he started his career,he once dropped a drink on my sister laughed and walked away,in the same club he once skipped the whole que was told to get back and que up he stormed off.A lot of fans dont like how he always blames his team mates with his finger wagging and hands in the air stuff Personaly im not his biggest fan for that but hes a good striker for us and id never begrudge that.

master-t

I couldn't give a *** what any player is like personally, I don't hang around with them. What I care about is how good a player they are and what they offer the team.

People saying player A is a knob, a tool etc are not really seeing the point.

Roy Keane......was a complete and utter tool according to many, many sources. But, he was a natural winner and a quality player for Ireland. That is all I care about.

We are joint top of the group - yet, we still have negative posts about this was crap, that was crap. It was said in an earlier post, if people don't realise the position we are in, for a country of our size.....then you are living in a dreamland.

Pauleta

master-t wrote: »

I couldn't give a *** what any player is like personally, I don't hang around with them. What I care about is how good a player they are and what they offer the team.

People saying player A is a knob, a tool etc are not really seeing the point.

Roy Keane......was a complete and utter tool according to many, many sources. But, he was a natural winner and a quality player for Ireland. That is all I care about.

We are joint top of the group - yet, we still have negative posts about this was crap, that was crap. It was said in an earlier post, if people don't realise the position we are in, for a country of our size.....then you are living in a dreamland.

I was the one who referred to him being a knob but i also stated he has been a fine player. Ive been turned off the national team of recent years. Ireland are better off with Keane but from my personal view, i cant wait until the likes of himself and Dunne retires because they are very unlikable.

master-t

Pauleta wrote: »

I was the one who referred to him being a knob but i also stated he has been a fine player. Ive been turned off the national team of recent years. Ireland are better off with Keane but from my personal view, i cant wait until the likes of himself and Dunne retires because they are very unlikable.

Well, I don't think I was singleing you out there personally Pauleta, but I take your point.

I have just heard a lot of people saying he is a tool etc but I can't see how / why that matters as long as he delivers as much as possible.

Dunne? That's a first. Don't see it.

tallaghtmick

master-t wrote: »

Dunne? That's a first. Don't see it.

agreed,absolute gent from personal experience

Pauleta

tallaghtmick wrote: »

agreed,absolute gent from personal experience

I dont think the current Villa management team, Martin O'Neill and Brian Kerr would agree.

oconnon9

Pauleta wrote: »

I was the one who referred to him being a knob but i also stated he has been a fine player. Ive been turned off the national team of recent years. Ireland are better off with Keane but from my personal view, i cant wait until the likes of himself and Dunne retires because they are very unlikable.

Laughable comment to be fair.

The man is a hero. Gotta love his honesty & work ethic. Always gives 100%. He's up there with Given & Duff as the most respected players in the squad. He should be the captain.

Sergio

oconnon9 wrote: »

Laughable comment to be fair.

The man is a hero. Gotta love his honesty & work ethic. Always gives 100%. He's up there with Given & Duff as the most respected players in the squad. He should be the captain.

I couldnt agree more.

Also ive nothing personal against robbie keane.I just think he is overated as a player.There is no doubt he has scored plenty of important goals for ireland over the years but i think his work ethic on the pitch is shocking at times.His body language says it all,throwing his hands up in the air when things dont go his way and hes constantly rolling around on the grass.
Compare him to Kevin Doyles work ethic and attitude on the pitch always chasing down defenders and looking to win the ball and be positive with it.

Pauleta

oconnon9 wrote: »

Laughable comment to be fair.

The man is a hero. Gotta love his honesty & work ethic. Always gives 100%. He's up there with Given & Duff as the most respected players in the squad. He should be the captain.

:pac: Have you seen him lately. He's been overweight since the season started and nearly got thrown out of Villa because of his drinking.

master-t

Pretty sure Dunne is not on his own to be 'thrown out' at Villa. Just ask Dunne, Collins, Young, Pires, Gabby, Petrov.

Granted Collins and Dunne got p*ssed up on a week away, but it is a known fact they senior players at Villa hate Houllier. Nothing to with drinking really.

Dunne is a quality defender and got his career back on track after his early City days of drink.

gustavo

master-t wrote: »

Granted Collins and Dunne got p*ssed up on a week away, but it is a known fact they senior players at Villa hate Houllier. Nothing to with drinking really.

So it's alright to do it if you don't like the manager?

master-t

gustavo wrote: »

master-t wrote: »

Granted Collins and Dunne got p*ssed up on a week away, but it is a known fact they senior players at Villa hate Houllier. Nothing to with drinking really.
/QUOTE]

So it's alright to do it if you don't like the manager?

You are carefully selecting quotes of what I said.

No, it isn't. I said granted they got drunk (btw, the whole team were drinking, just so happened these two had a rant at the coaches) but they then appologised for. This turmoil at Villa has been going on since before Christmas - not since the other week when Dunne put on weight and hit the booze. :pac:

Pauleta

master-t wrote: »

Pretty sure Dunne is not on his own to be 'thrown out' at Villa. Just ask Dunne, Collins, Young, Pires, Gabby, Petrov.

Granted Collins and Dunne got p*ssed up on a week away, but it is a known fact they senior players at Villa hate Houllier. Nothing to with drinking really.

Dunne is a quality defender and got his career back on track after his early City days of drink.

He disliked the last coach as well. It seems like training doesnt agree with him.

oconnon9

Pauleta wrote: »

He disliked the last coach as well. It seems like training doesnt agree with him.

I don't think any of the villa players are happy with Houllier, and it would be no suprise to see him get the boot in the summer regardless of whether Villa stay up or not.

You questioned Dunne's likeability, the point people are trying to make is that everyone likes & respects Dunne. Just because he has a tendency to go off the rails doesn't mean the public won't like him. There is just so much to admire in the big guy. Paul McGrath was notorious for struggling thorugh an alcoholic addiction, missing training, getting sent home etc. He is probably one of the most likeable Irish people of all time. They still chant his name.

I have never heard any fan from any club or country have a bad word to say about Richard Dunne, and I doubt I ever will.
(Apart from your good self of course )

parker kent

Colinboy wrote: »

Compare him to Kevin Doyles work ethic and attitude on the pitch always chasing down defenders and looking to win the ball and be positive with it.

And compare their goalscoring records. You need both types of players in the team. Players who run themselves into the ground are much more abundant than 46 goal International strikers. Especially in a country where Robbie Keane has scored twice as many goals for the national team than any other player we have had, let alone his goal-shy, current team mates.

oconnon9 wrote: »

I have never heard any fan from any club or country have a bad word to say about Richard Dunne, and I doubt I ever will.
(Apart from your good self of course )

What about Everton where he left under a cloud? (said cloud may have been caused by a Guinness fueled fart :pac:) Or Man City where he had numerous problems throughout? Ask Kevin Keegan if you disagree. Or his problems with Brian Kerr?

Sure he turned his career around at Man City, but he went through a long period of being a terrible professional before that happened. And given his antics at Villa this season, that may be happening again. Granted there are problems in general at Villa, but he is not blameless. Drink, poor training/fitness and a bad attitude have been his biggest problems since he was a teenager.

He is a very good defender and deserves the praise he gets from many here, but lets not by myopic and ignore the flaws. He should have been a Champions League defender given his ability, size and power.

oconnon9

parker kent wrote: »

What about Everton where he left under a cloud? (said cloud may have been caused by a Guinness fueled fart :pac:) Or Man City where he had numerous problems throughout? Ask Kevin Keegan if you disagree. Or his problems with Brian Kerr?

Sure he turned his career around at Man City, but he went through a long period of being a terrible professional before that happened. And given his antics at Villa this season, that may be happening again. Granted there are problems in general at Villa, but he is not blameless. Drink, poor training/fitness and a bad attitude have been his biggest problems since he was a teenager.

He is a very good defender and deserves the praise he gets from many here, but lets not by myopic and ignore the flaws. He should have been a Champions League defender given his ability, size and power.

I agree he has had his problems with management & undoubtedly is not a model pro by any means in the way he carries himself sometimes. But a poster questioned his likeability among the fans and this amazed me. I have never heard any fan have a bad word to say about Richard Dunne. I listened to an interview he gave after the Ireland-Russia match after we'd been taken apart by a skilled Russian side; what I loved was his honesty. He never tried to reach for excuses blah blah referee made a mistake; his message was simple.. We weren't good enough, we let ourselves and the fans down but we have to move on and look forward from here. I think that's what every fan wants to hear.

As i said previously, I think Dunne is up there with Duff, Given & Doyle as the most popular players in the current Irish squad.