Free Immigration Is In The Irish Constitution!

Mena

INIS now. And as per my post "up until this ruling".

zuroph

token101 wrote: »

He was driving!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'Guo was arrested for failing to produce a valid passport or other equivalent documents.'

A valid document would surely have included his driving licence would it not?

token101 wrote: »

They didn't assume him guilty! And they didn't assume him innocent either, they erred on the side of caution and detained him. I totally agree that bringing him home and getting the passport would be the way to do it, but maybe theres a reason they couldn't do that? Protocol maybe? I'd be totally against arresting the guy or making him embarrassed in any way but Gardai have a job to do and he should know that and be responsible and carry some ID. Like we all should. It's common sense really.

:rolleyes:

randylonghorn

CreepingDeath wrote: »

The only people against id cards are people with something to hide.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

But illegal immigrants, tax dodgers etc, are the types that would worry about this sort of system.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Sounds like you've something to hide.

Your constant bullying tactics of implying that anyone who has reservations about mandatory ID cards must have something to hide or be involved in some kind of illegal or nefarious tactics are doing absolutely nothing to further your case; in fact, they serve well to harden the attitudes of those of us who have absolutely nothing to hide but who believe in liberty as a principle and distrust Big Brother state schemes less because of the intent behind them, which is often legitimate enough, but because their implementation and enforcement tends usually to be left to small-minded and power-obsessed individuals in the system who thrive on the authority it gives them to stick their noses into other peoples lives and give them grief.

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Ireland is a soft touch, and needs to toughen up, especially in country collapsing recession.

Hmmm, that sounds like a familiar mantra, historically speaking.

sdonn wrote: »

I'm of the opinion that this movement of people who object to everything the state/gardaí do - asking for your name, asking for ID, other general civil disobedience etc etc are hippies with no idea of how life works, no idea that crime exists, no respect for anyone but themselves and with their heads up their uneducated arses.

I'm of the opinion that the group of people who see the erosion of civil liberties and the introduction of greater police powers and state control as the solution to all problems are neo-fascists with no respect for liberty, equality, fraternity or the rights of the individual, no respect for anyone but themselves and with their heads up their uneducated arses.

Ridiculous, OTT statement?

Yes, probably.

More so than your statement above?

Nope.

And as a postscript, many of those who feel the need to at least scrutinise closely any proposals for mandatory state ID cards and similar measures are very well educated, especially in the field of history.

southsiderosie

CreepingDeath wrote: »

And there's a difference between stopping someone with a strong Irish accent who has no licence with them, and stopping someone with a foreign accent.

There's far too many unlicensed and uninsured foreign nationals on the road, and it's the guards who have to pick up the body parts and inform the next of kin.

There was an episode of the Irish show "customs," who caught a Polish motor cyclist outside my estate, uninsured.

So I'm absolutely all for increased motor checkpoints, and anti-immigration teams raiding foreign restaurants as seen on British TV.

Ireland is a soft touch, and needs to toughen up, especially in country collapsing recession.

Ok, now you are mixing in Poles, who have a right to live and work in Ireland as EU citizens. This has NOTHING to do with national ID laws. Increased motor checkpoints would not necessarily help the guards with illegal immigration because there is no national id card. All they can check for is proper driving papers - a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE.

southsiderosie

token101 wrote: »

Whatever the case is about his licence, the point is pretty simple. Asking someone who looks and more than likely sounds ethnically different to prove he is a citizen isn't an unreasonable request. When you're talking about enforcing immigration law, which is a Garda's job, when someone is obviously foreign, be it accent, skin colour, whatever, it's common sense to be allowed to ask their immigration status. To suggest it's racist or whatever else is ridiculous.

token101 wrote: »

How are the gardai supposed to enforce immigration law at all if they cant even ask where the person is from? Do we take everyones word? Leaving aside legislation, he surely has responsibilities, like us all, as a citizen? Like the responsibility to assist the Gardai? There is no legislation requiring you to assist the Gardai but it's a responsibility as a a citizen.

How are they supposed to enforce immigration law when the law does not require natives to carry any form of identification that proves they are a citizen?

How do you not see that this is where the hole in the law is?

The idea that someone is 'obviously foreign' in a country with 15 years of mass immigration and naturalization does not make sense, especially in a city like Dublin. Have you walked around Capel street lately?

Making assumptions about where people are from and their citizenship based on their appearance in this day and age is, frankly, stupid.

Amhran Nua

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The High Court has just struck out a law which requires foreigners to show, on request, a passport at the airport when entering the country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0325/breaking31.html



Thank goodness the Constitution writers got something right.
Let them all in!

How many threads have you started on this now? I mean really, customs officials shouldn't be allowed to ask for passports? The last person I heard yapping on about this blubbering crap was an American who also wouldn't speak out against corruption in government in case she "might get a job with them someday".

My wife is a Filipina. I love Filipinos in general, they are a marvellous people. But I don't think all 80 million of them should be let into the country. I don't think anyone sane honestly would. Which leaves us with the pressing question of just how far over the line of sanity you are, my friend.

I'm thinking a few cans short of the shelf of beans is a good place to start.

virmilitaris

I have no idea if an Irish passport and/or citzenship is necessary for an irish driving license but i can't imagine it is. I have a japanese and a korean driving license and I'm not a citizen of either. All I needed document wise was to prove my age and show them I was in the country legally I.e show my visa.

enda1

zuroph wrote: »

The chinese guy in question wasnt charged with failure to produce a driving licence when pulled over, which would suggest that he DID provide Identification at the time, just not his passport, which, as an Irish citizen, he wasn't obligated to carry with him.

Irish guy?

biko

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Which leaves us with the pressing question of just how far over the line of sanity you are, my friend.

Disagreeing with you =/= insanity. Don't push that agenda.

upandcumming

I really hate you UsernameInUse...

CreepingDeath

southsiderosie wrote: »

Increased motor checkpoints would not necessarily help the guards with illegal immigration because there is no national id card.

That's my whole point, just in reverse. :rolleyes:

If we all had national id cards, then it would help the State in all manner of law enforcement and fraud prevention for everyone regardless of nationality.

matrim

enda1 wrote: »

Irish guy?

Wouldn't Chinese guy also be an accurate description as he would still be a Chinese citizen. Just cause he got Irish citizenship doesn't remove his being Chinese. Maybe Chinese-Irish guy would be better as that covers both.

Does your drivers license include nationality? If it does, could it be possible that he got his drivers license before his Irish citizenship, therefore his license would state his nationality as Chinese and the Garda would have a valid reason to presume the person wasn't an Irish citizen.

enda1

matrim wrote: »

Wouldn't Chinese guy also be an accurate description as he would still be a Chinese citizen. Just cause he got Irish citizenship doesn't remove his being Chinese. Maybe Chinese-Irish guy would be better as that covers both.

Does your drivers license include nationality? If it does, could it be possible that he got his drivers license before his Irish citizenship, therefore his license would state his nationality as Chinese and the Garda would have a valid reason to presume the person wasn't an Irish citizen.

I don't know if China allows dual citizenship, nor in fact if he is/was ever Chinese. Though judging by his name, yes it looks Chinese.

Just from the facts in the article, all we can be sure of is that he's an Irish guy.

EDIT: According to wiki, you lose your Chinese citizenship if you acquire another one.

matrim

enda1 wrote: »

I don't know if China allows dual citizenship, nor in fact if he is/was ever Chinese. Though judging by his name, yes it looks Chinese.

Just from the facts in the article, all we can be sure of is that he's an Irish guy.

Just took a look back at the article. I had thought it stated he was originally Chinese but it doesn't. Although give that it says

who arrived in Ireland in 1997 and acquired citizenship in 2003

It's safe to assume he's not originally an Irish citizen

Freddie59

mike65 wrote: »

Damn coloureds and thier pesky Irishness eh, Still one wouldn't expect the Turnips of Templemore to have any wit about this sort of thing.

Yeah - it's more the kind of thing you would expect from the police state just across the water. Something the Irish have suffered at the hands of for years.

source

southsiderosie wrote: »

All they can check for is proper driving papers - a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ISSUE.

Incorrect, Checkpoints are set up to detect crime, A Garda can ask for a driving licence, if you don't have it, it is an offence, and if they suspect you to be in violation of legislation, can ask your name and address, if they believe you to be lying they can arrest.

If they reasonably suspect you to be guilty of another offence then they can invoke powers under other Acts (not necessarily road traffic Acts), for example, drugs, immigration, theft Acts etc etc etc

virmilitaris wrote: »

I have no idea if an Irish passport and/or citzenship is necessary for an irish driving license but i can't imagine it is. I have a japanese and a korean driving license and I'm not a citizen of either. All I needed document wise was to prove my age and show them I was in the country legally I.e show my visa.

Citizenship is not required to obtain an Irish Driving Licence. Anyone who sits the test can get a licence. There are many refugees who have full driving licences, It is also possible to exchange a foreign licence for an Irish one once you're from the EU or a recognised State. A driving licence has nationality written on it. People generally don't change their driving licence until they have to renew it.....or it falls apart. Chances are (and i'm only presuming here) that this person's driving licence still said nationality: Chinese. Which would lead to the Garda asking for a GNIB card or passport, failure to have this being an offence, would lead to the driver being arrested. Alternatively he didn't have his licence on him and said he was Irish, (again presuming) Garda didn't believe him and arrested as he had no licence or GNIB card.

To those in this thread who think that this person's word should be taken over documentary proof, Say a Garda stops a person who matches the description of the suspect in an assault case, they ask the person a few questions they say that they are not involved. Do you take his word or ask for proof. Seeing as you only have his word to go on.

Everybody in this thread is guessing what happened based on the story, none of us know exactly what happened. I firmly believe that if national ID cards were in place then this wouldn't have be an issue.

zuroph

foinse wrote: »

To those in this thread who think that this person's word should be taken over documentary proof, Say a Garda stops a person who matches the description of the suspect in an assault case, they ask the person a few questions they say that they are not involved. Do you take his word or ask for proof. Seeing as you only have his word to go on.

Everybody in this thread is guessing what happened based on the story, none of us know exactly what happened. I firmly believe that if national ID cards were in place then this wouldn't have be an issue.

So the guy fitted the suspect profile of "looking a bit foreign". Sarahs got slightly slanty eyes, should we haul her in and have a look at her passport? Paul McGrath, haul him in every time he gets pulled for speeding? Anyone with an american accent? Thats a pretty wide net the gardaí are casting these days. what if he's a white american with an irish accent, dont suspect him? Its too broad an assumption to be making. A bit more tact could have been used if the guy was claiming to be a citizen,m as he didnt need to carry his passport. bring him to get it, ask him to produce it in his own time.

source

zuroph wrote: »

So the guy fitted the suspect profile of "looking a bit foreign". Sarahs got slightly slanty eyes, should we haul her in and have a look at her passport? Paul McGrath, haul him in every time he gets pulled for speeding? Anyone with an american accent? Thats a pretty wide net the gardaí are casting these days. what if he's a white american with an irish accent, dont suspect him? Its too broad an assumption to be making. A bit more tact could have been used if the guy was claiming to be a citizen,m as he didnt need to carry his passport. bring him to get it, ask him to produce it in his own time.

So ask a suspected illegal immigrant (lets face it that's what he was in the eyes of the Garda at the time) to head away about his business and please come back and prove to me you're Irish. That's not how it works, We don't tell suspected bank robbers that they're suspects and to come back when they can prove they weren't involved. The crimes are different but the procedure is the same. If someone is suspected of something then they are arrested, questioned and once their innocence/ guilt is proven then the appropriate action is taken.

It's easy to sit here on the internet and pick apart an incident that happened, Gardai have to think on their feet, and make their minds up based on the evidence presented to them at that moment in time. The Garda was well within his rights to do what he did, as the law was behind him.

That Section of law has now been declared unconstitutional because of the wording of the section. Until that has been rectified Gardai cannot use that section. The Garda did from my reading of the article and experience, everything right. It is not fair or right to pick him and his actions apart now when circumstances have changed.

UsernameInUse

foinse wrote: »

We don't tell suspected bank robbers that they're suspects and to come back when they can prove they weren't involved.

Actually, we do. It has gotten to the stage now where there are procedures in place to criminalise you if you even think about committing a crime.

And where are our civil liberties? They're being eroded away day after day. The Declaration of Independence assumed power to the individual, now the Declaration of Human Rights presumes power to the State. It is clear we have entered the era of 'Community' and left behind Freedom.

source

Usernameinuse, i'm not going to engage with you on this thread except to explain that your last post was incorrect. Also you're posts display a high level of paranoia which I think are more suited to conspiracy theory forum. In the last 8 pages you haven't added one constructive comment to the thread, you only rubbish others posts and spout paranoid babbling's about the state taking control.

Of and I can tell you for a fact that no we do not just let them go and come back when they prove their innocent. We arrest and conduct an investigation. they are then released on bail which restricts their movements until their court case and with big cases like that it is usually a judge that makes that decision no the Gardai.

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

It has gotten to the stage now where there are procedures in place to criminalise you if you even think about committing a crime.

There's a difference between "thinking" and planning.
There are various offences for planning to perform a crime, eg. planning to commit robbery/murder/terrorist attacks.
They are completely valid crimes, and it's up to the prosecution to show a clear intention to go through with those acts.

Nobody can criminalise you for "thinking" about committing a crime.
I'm thinking about beating you over the head with a blunt instrument right now... ring up the guards and try to have me arrested.

UsernameInUse wrote: »

And where are our civil liberties? They're being eroded away day after day. The Declaration of Independence assumed power to the individual, now the Declaration of Human Rights presumes power to the State. It is clear we have entered the era of 'Community' and left behind Freedom.

Give me an example of one thing in Ireland that have not got the "freedom" to perform today. Anything...

zuroph

foinse wrote: »

So ask a suspected illegal immigrant (lets face it that's what he was in the eyes of the Garda at the time) to head away about his business and please come back and prove to me you're Irish. That's not how it works, We don't tell suspected bank robbers that they're suspects and to come back when they can prove they weren't involved. The crimes are different but the procedure is the same. If someone is suspected of something then they are arrested, questioned and once their innocence/ guilt is proven then the appropriate action is taken.

why was he suspected? Thats what we have an issue with here.

UsernameInUse

CreepingDeath wrote: »

Give me an example of one thing in Ireland that have not got the "freedom" to perform today. Anything...

Why don't you do a little research for yourself.
http://www.iccl.ie

campaigns to safeguard the right to private life in Ireland in accordance with Article 8 (right to private and family life) of the European Convention on Human Rights. Current laws protect some aspects of privacy but neglect others. The ICCL is conducting ongoing research on the gaps present in Ireland’s privacy regime. We are also actively calling for the introduction of better safeguards of privacy in Ireland in the areas of data protection, surveillance and biometric identity.

Apt example, considering you're the one banging on about ID Cards.. :rolleyes:

source

zuroph wrote: »

why was he suspected? Thats what ewe have an issue with here.

Only the Garda that stopped him knows the answer to that question, everything everybody has said in this thread about the whys and why nots of this case are hypothetical,

I have given an example of something that I have personally seen as being the cause of someone being arrested under this section. Almost identical case except for the person's nationality. Under section 12 it was down to the person to prove he was legally in the country. It was not for the Garda to prove he wasn't. If I lived in lets say China, or a Middle Eastern Country, where I look and sound different to the locals, and I was to take citizenship of that country. I would be damn sure to carry documents that proved that I was supposed to be there.

I heard a figure before but don't have a link for it, for every legitimate immigrant there are 10 illegitimate immigrants, be that persons sneaking into the country, or refugees for whom a deportation order exists.

Without being able to ask who is who, it is impossible for Gardai to find illegal immigrants. Unfortunately Illegal immigrants don't tend to come from places like USA, they come from countries like The Far East, The Middle East, Africa, These people have a physical difference from the majority white Irish born Irish citizens. It's not racial profiling to ask a Chinese person for proof of their claim that they are Irish citizens. It is common sense.

zuroph

foinse wrote: »

Only the Garda that stopped him knows the answer to that question, everything everybody has said in this thread about the whys and why nots of this case are hypothetical,

I have given an example of something that I have personally seen as being the cause of someone being arrested under this section. Almost identical case except for the person's nationality. Under section 12 it was down to the person to prove he was legally in the country. It was not for the Garda to prove he wasn't. If I lived in lets say China, or a Middle Eastern Country, where I look and sound different to the locals, and I was to take citizenship of that country. I would be damn sure to carry documents that proved that I was supposed to be there.

I heard a figure before but don't have a link for it, for every legitimate immigrant there are 10 illegitimate immigrants, be that persons sneaking into the country, or refugees for whom a deportation order exists.

Without being able to ask who is who, it is impossible for Gardai to find illegal immigrants. Unfortunately Illegal immigrants don't tend to come from places like USA, they come from countries like The Far East, The Middle East, Africa, These people have a physical difference from the majority white Irish born Irish citizens. It's not racial profiling to ask a Chinese person for proof of their claim that they are Irish citizens. It is common sense.

So you say we cant conclude that it was because he looked different, then go on to argue that its fine because he looked different?

IF the person was legally obliged to carry proof then well and good, but he wasnt. get the law changed, dont punish the person. And in such a way too, 3 hours of detention and forcing his wife to take time out too.

zuroph

and are you saying that the gardaí wont go after an illegal immigrant from certain places as much as those from other places? By your rational, the Gardaí are obliged to defend against illegal immigration, Why shouldnt they detain every american accent the pull driving who claims to live here?

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Why don't you do a little research for yourself.
http://www.iccl.ie

wrote:

campaigns to safeguard the right to private life in Ireland in accordance with Article 8 (right to private and family life) of the European Convention on Human Rights. Current laws protect some aspects of privacy but neglect others. The ICCL is conducting ongoing research on the gaps present in Ireland’s privacy regime. We are also actively calling for the introduction of better safeguards of privacy in Ireland in the areas of data protection, surveillance and biometric identity.

Apt example, considering you're the one banging on about ID Cards.. :rolleyes:

I asked for an example, you have not provided one.

You're the one trying to convince people to jump on to the hysteria bandwagon, and now you're expecting others to do research for your side of the argument ?

You sound like someone with no life experience, fresh out of college with that idealistic naive mentality.

source

zuroph wrote: »

and are you saying that the gardaí wont go after an illegal immigrant from certain places as much as those from other places? By your rational, the Gardaí are obliged to defend against illegal immigration, Why shouldnt they detain every american accent the pull driving who claims to live here?

No I'm saying that from experience illegal immigrants tend to come from countries that are less well off than our own, seeking a better life for themselves. Americans don't fall into this category.

zuroph wrote:

So you say we cant conclude that it was because he looked different, then go on to argue that its fine because he looked different?

That's putting words into my mouth, I said that only the Garda knows what happened at the side of that road on that day, and that everything anybody says in this thread is surmising. I also gave you an example of a very similar incident, except in the case I observed the driver was here illegally.

zuroph wrote:

IF the person was legally obliged to carry proof then well and good, but he wasnt. get the law changed, dont punish the person. And in such a way too, 3 hours of detention and forcing his wife to take time out too.

For some offences Gardai can detain you for as long as it takes them to complete their duties, ie a Garda can hold you at the side of the road for as long as it takes them to complete their duties. A Garda can hold someone for as long as they need to identify a person. While you might not agree with it, it's the law and it's there for a reason.

UsernameInUse

CreepingDeath wrote: »

I asked for an example, you have not provided one.

You're the one trying to convince people to jump on to the hysteria bandwagon, and now you're expecting others to do research for your side of the argument ?

You sound like someone with no life experience, fresh out of college with that idealistic naive mentality.

You've rubbished a position which has not been pursued in any instance in this thread. You, for one, are assuming I am 'jumping on the hysteria bandwagon' and second, 'expect others to do research regarding my side of the argument'. Fictitiously, you are claiming that I have stated that I have a) jumped on a 'bandwagon' and b) trying to force something down your throat. Neither of which, entertains me. I have merely obtained, through logical thought, my position where I find it of great inconvenience to justify oneself to others for a "law" which I have not broken.

The same with the unfortunate guy in this situation. He has not broken a law, and yet, is continued to be hassled for what reason, is for the individual to decide. The Garda is obviously not well rehearsed in these situations to the point in which he doesn't acknowledge that he is walking on thin ice - yet, it is through his actions that we can claim that the "law" makes rights for some at others expenses. This goes back to the age old debate of Rights. Who has a right and where do they come from?

I assume (I hate to) that you're a communitarian, seeing ID Cards as a greater good. But by attempting to eliminate individual responsibility for a concept of collective responsibility, you're coercion undermines what you think you support - you're erasing the distinction among individuals and what each individual values or supports. So, it is not a greater good.

As far as civil liberties go, it may not be as obvious for you to see i.e - we don't have mass amounts of enforcement on our streets. However, does this constitute that our civil liberties are being eroded - of course not. It's far more subtle and I oppose any inclination to conclude my posts would be far better suited to the Conspiracy Forum as I don't proclaim that some entity is planning our downfall - that would be naive. Of course, it's collectivism discarding them, it is us, not one or few. And it is us, because we have sacrificed freedom for security.

Predator_

UsernameInUse wrote: »

The High Court has just struck out a law which requires foreigners to show, on request, a passport at the airport when entering the country.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0325/breaking31.html



Thank goodness the Constitution writers got something right.
Let them all in!

Left wing idiocy right there. Ireland for the Irish.

Mena

Predator_ wrote: »

Left wing idiocy right there. Ireland for the Irish.

Yeah, turf out the goddamned multinationals, who the feck needs em.

Predator_

Mena wrote: »

Yeah, turf out the goddamned multinationals, who the feck needs em.

:rolleyes:
Who said anything anything about multinational corporations?

Mena

Predator_ wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Who said anything anything about multinational corporations?

They're not Irish. Feck em out!

Right?

Predator_

Mena wrote: »

They're not Irish. Feck em out!

Right?

Never said that. I dont have a problem with a certain percetage being foreign. I think thats a reasonable position to be in.
Its far left clowns like yourself that want complete open boarders that have the extreme view. But I would bet my life that if you had to compete against these foreigners for work you would be singing a different tune.

Mena

Predator_ wrote: »

Never said that. I dont have a problem with a certain percetage being foreign. I think thats a reasonable position to be in.
Its far left clowns like yourself that want complete open boarders that have the extreme view. But I would bet my life that if you had to compete against these foreigners for work you would be singing a different tune.

Ah ok, so it's "Most of Ireland for the Irish" then. Gotcha.

However, I am curious as to what led you to label me as 1 ) a "far left clown" and 2 ) an open borders advocate.

As for you last sentence, I tuk yer jawb. (I'm foreign).

Donkey Oaty

Mena wrote: »

(I'm foreign).

Reported.

Predator_

Mena wrote: »

Ah ok, so it's "Most of Ireland for the Irish" then. Gotcha.

However, I am curious as to what led you to label me as 1 ) a "far left clown" and 2 ) an open borders advocate.

As for you last sentence, I tuk yer jawb. (I'm foreign).

Well then you have no right to interfere in such an important issue as immigration. Advocate open boarders in your own country and be grateful your here.

Mena

Predator_ wrote: »

Well then you have no right to interfere in such an important issue as immigration. Advocate open boarders in your own country and be grateful your here.

I'm not advocating open borders. As for being grateful... lol?

Nodin

Mena wrote: »

.............

As for you last sentence, I tuk yer jawb. .......

Took his job? How is McDonalds these days, btw?

Nodin

The gentleman in question was on the 6 news, btw. Somebody might link the section when it becomes available....

Donkey Oaty

Mena wrote: »

As for being grateful... lol?

He has a point, Mena.

You are taking advantage of us by expressing an opinion.

There is no way that any Irish person would live in another country and assume anything other than undying loyalty to that country's people and that government's domestic and foreign policy.

Mena

I'll just climb back into my box so... :pac:

Donkey Oaty

Mena wrote: »

I'll just climb back into my box so... :pac:

You have learned a valuable lesson here, stranger, which is this: do not meddle in our self-pitying culture.

Nodin

27 mins 57 secs in.

http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2011/0328/6news.html#

CreepingDeath

UsernameInUse wrote: »

I assume (I hate to) that you're a communitarian

You're arguing against what could be described as a mild form of racism, but you've a label for everyone and every political viewpoint on the thread. Writing them off with single word descriptions. :rolleyes:

UsernameInUse wrote: »

I oppose any inclination to conclude my posts would be far better suited to the Conspiracy Forum as I don't proclaim that some entity is planning our downfall - that would be naive.

So you post a load of waffling politics on After Hours instead ?

Are you affiliated with the "Migrant Rights Centre of Ireland" or any non-national supporting group ?

The introduction of the CAB, eroded the rights of possession.
The state were able to confiscate cash and property from criminals who could not justify where they got it.
Did you fight with the same intensity (ie. posting anonymously on the internet) about that?

token101

zuroph wrote: »

and are you saying that the gardaí wont go after an illegal immigrant from certain places as much as those from other places? By your rational, the Gardaí are obliged to defend against illegal immigration, Why shouldnt they detain every american accent the pull driving who claims to live here?

Well if they can't provide any evidence of what they're doing here then they should be inquisitive at least. And for all you know they do. But lets be honest, if that happened, who'd care? It wouldn't make the news thats for sure and if it did they wouldn't be calling it ethnic profiling. Even the woman in the migrant centre said that Gardai weren't to know. But they need legislation asap. But until it comes, and it could be years knowing Ireland, the Gardai have to be allowed to do their job, otherwise there's not much point in even having immigration laws.

Nodin

token101 wrote: »

Well if they can't provide any evidence of what they're doing here then they should be inquisitive at least. ...........

Do other Irish citizens have to provide "evidence of what they're doing here"?

token101

Nodin wrote: »

Do other Irish citizens have to provide "evidence of what they're doing here"?

FFS HOW DO YOU KNOW IF THEY ARE A CITIZEN OR NOT? Thats the entire point I'm making! It's a cops job to be inquisitive and the day you start legislating against that and calling it 'profiling' is a bad day for everyone. How far do you go with that one? Are cops not even allowed to make judgement calls anymore? Bottom line is if you look Irish and sound Irish and have ginger fcuking curls, then the cops should be allowed to ask you for a passport or evidence of your residency in this country, but they probably won't. That's common sense. But if you look Chinese and have a Chinese accent, or if you have an American accent or an Aussie accent or whatever, surely the Gardai should be allowed simply to check your status if they judge it necessary. That's not racism. It's common sense. Does that even exist anymore?

And as an aside, no ones ever asked why this particular guy got pulled over in the first place. It could have been a million different reasons! Tax, insurance, broken lights, anything! Everyone seems to assume it was racism on the part of the Gardai out to get this guy. Which just goes to show how much faith we place in the Gardai and, in a broader context, in our civil service. That's an indictment of Irish society.

southsiderosie

foinse wrote: »

I firmly believe that if national ID cards were in place then this wouldn't have be an issue.

I agree. But they are not. And since citizens are not required to carry proof of nationality, once the driver said he was an Irish citizen, that should have been the end of it.

This case has been handled so stupidly that now people are far more aware of this loophole than they would have been otherwise.

K-9

southsiderosie wrote: »

I agree. But they are not. And since citizens are not required to carry proof of nationality, once the driver said he was an Irish citizen, that should have been the end of it.

This case has been handled so stupidly that now people are far more aware of this loophole than they would have been otherwise.

Since when should a Guard take anybody at their word?