Just had a baby? Welcome to the 1950s.

dan_d

Not a parent (I've said it before!), but a woman!

I am however, an engineer. Therefore I've spent the last 10 odd years of my life almost solely in the company of men. 5 of them on a building site.

In my house, house work is shared. He cleans toilets, I clean toilets. I hang pictures and put furniture together, he puts washes on and hoovers the house. Admittedly, as I've been unemployed the last while, I've taken on the bulk of the housework - mainly due to boredom!But when I'm back at work, I wholly expect him to pitch in.The way I see it, he lives here too, he makes as much (and more!) of a mess as I do, therefore he can clean up too. Also helps make him appreciate how much effort it is to clean a house...:p. I do find that I would be more tuned in to what's going on around the house, that I'll pick things up as I walk around and tidy, etc, but in so far as I can, we split it all up.At least 60-40!!

While on site, I did not differentiate.I did not try to keep up with the lads - I'd ask for help if something heavy needed lifting , etc,etc...but other than that, I did not believe in playing the poor little girl card - and more importantly I was never, ever treated that way.I expected to be treated in exactly the same way as any men I was working with.

I find this article interesting because my one dread about (hopefully) future motherhood is that I don't want to be "just a mammy". Kids, great. But I'm a person too.I want to have my own life too, my own friends, job and interests. It doesn't have to high-powered and corporate, but it does have to be something I'm interested in.I don't want to become one of those people who does nothing but talk constantly about their child in the (often misguided) belief that everyone else in the room is as interested in their offspring as they are. There are no 2 ways about it, that mothers take the brunt of child rearing and house cleaning. But....why can't they ask for help? Insist on help? How much of it do they bring on themselves by simply suffering in silence (so to speak) and becoming resentful? Why can't they open their mouth and say "well look, I've done XYZ, can you please take a turn to allow me to do ABC"? At least try for a compromise, some sharing of the work.

I have sympathy, but at the same time there's no use in someone like this complaining while not trying to do anything about it.

iguana

Macros42 wrote: »

I resemble that remark

It works the other way too. If there's a nail to be hammered to hang a picture on or grass to be cut the expectation is that the man will do it. That's a societal thing and women are just as guilty as men in that regard.

I do all those things in my house and my husband probably does most of the cooking.

Daisy M

dan_d wrote: »

Not a parent (I've said it before!), but a woman!

I am however, an engineer. Therefore I've spent the last 10 odd years of my life almost solely in the company of men. 5 of them on a building site.

In my house, house work is shared. He cleans toilets, I clean toilets. I hang pictures and put furniture together, he puts washes on and hoovers the house. Admittedly, as I've been unemployed the last while, I've taken on the bulk of the housework - mainly due to boredom!But when I'm back at work, I wholly expect him to pitch in.The way I see it, he lives here too, he makes as much (and more!) of a mess as I do, therefore he can clean up too. Also helps make him appreciate how much effort it is to clean a house...:p. I do find that I would be more tuned in to what's going on around the house, that I'll pick things up as I walk around and tidy, etc, but in so far as I can, we split it all up.At least 60-40!!

While on site, I did not differentiate.I did not try to keep up with the lads - I'd ask for help if something heavy needed lifting , etc,etc...but other than that, I did not believe in playing the poor little girl card - and more importantly I was never, ever treated that way.I expected to be treated in exactly the same way as any men I was working with.

I find this article interesting because my one dread about (hopefully) future motherhood is that I don't want to be "just a mammy". Kids, great. But I'm a person too.I want to have my own life too, my own friends, job and interests. It doesn't have to high-powered and corporate, but it does have to be something I'm interested in.I don't want to become one of those people who does nothing but talk constantly about their child in the (often misguided) belief that everyone else in the room is as interested in their offspring as they are. There are no 2 ways about it, that mothers take the brunt of child rearing and house cleaning. But....why can't they ask for help? Insist on help? How much of it do they bring on themselves by simply suffering in silence (so to speak) and becoming resentful? Why can't they open their mouth and say "well look, I've done XYZ, can you please take a turn to allow me to do ABC"? At least try for a compromise, some sharing of the work.

I have sympathy, but at the same time there's no use in someone like this complaining while not trying to do anything about it.

While I understand you taking on more of the housework due to been unemployed and having more time to fill, I hope that when you return to employment you slip back into your old and very fair routine easily, I think some men can really get spoiled easily.
As regards your dread of just been mammy, who cares how other people see you, if you become known to some people as so and sos mam dont stress, you know who you are, who cares what anybody else thinks.
Something I have noticed is that full time working mums tend to do more of the kid talk than non working mums, my own opinion is that they possibly feel they have to prove themselves to be a interested caring mum to others, if I am right it is a pity that anyone should feel the need to do so.

pickarooney

I would dearly love to give up half the hours of my boring job that I get no stimulation from in order to spend it with my children. I'm sure a lot of fathers feel the same way but this is not an option with employers, the loss of income notwithstanding.

Wantobe

I think there's an interesting difference made by an earlier poster between the early months/years and later on with a toddler or young child. Women are tied physically and 'legally' to very young babies by virtue of breastfeeding/doctors appts and maternity leave. This can be a stifling and abrupt change to someone who might previously have been very independent and career- minded. But things level out later on as long as both spouses/parents see themselves as having equal responsibility.

I'm lucky, I feel, that my husband takes equal responsibility with our children and does not regard this as doing me a favour ( and yes, I shouldn't say I'm lucky but it's the truth of how I feel about it)- I know other women whose husbands regard anything to do with the children as their wife's responsibility and think nothing of going for a few pints after work with the lads a few days a week. I don't really understand how those women put up with it or why they would assume that role but then no-one really understands the dynamics of another person's relationship.

Daisy M

Wantobe wrote: »

I think there's an interesting difference made by an earlier poster between the early months/years and later on with a toddler or young child. Women are tied physically and 'legally' to very young babies by virtue of breastfeeding/doctors appts and maternity leave. This can be a stifling and abrupt change to someone who might previously have been very independent and career- minded. But things level out later on as long as both spouses/parents see themselves as having equal responsibility.

I'm lucky, I feel, that my husband takes equal responsibility with our children and does not regard this as doing me a favour ( and yes, I shouldn't say I'm lucky but it's the truth of how I feel about it)- I know other women whose husbands regard anything to do with the children as their wife's responsibility and think nothing of going for a few pints after work with the lads a few days a week. I don't really understand how those women put up with it or why they would assume that role but then no-one really understands the dynamics of another person's relationship.

What always makes me laugh is when men make a reference to them babysitting if their wife/partner goes out, when do we ladies ever refer to minding our own children as babysitting?:D

bourgie

metrovelvet wrote: »

Honestly what I think it does is point out how feminism sold women down the river.

While it promised the fulfillment of dreams on the horizon, emancipation from the shackles of the kitchen and the nursery, it couldn't deliver. But dreaming is a a dangerous activity.

I totally agree that nothing has changed. It may even be worse.

One of the basic underpinnings of feminism is that for centuries "women's work" (housework, child-raising) was done for free, allowing men to pursue the “more important” paid work. At the end of the day, someone has to take care of the **** and string beans. The kind of feminism I understand says there is no reason why it is only the woman in a relationship who looks after that side of things, it should also be up to the partner. That's equality Feminism was never about enabling women to have a high flying career and be a full time housekeeper and primary child carer, while your male partner just contributes the pay pack.

I think it can be hard for women to stop the "maternal gatekeeping" and also get rid of this notion that men can't change nappies / wash the dishes / look after a small baby. And to let go and trust your partner to take as good care of your children as you do. Equally, it is time for more men to play a full role in childminding/household tasks especially if both are working.

I didn't have the luxury of a long maternity break, both because of HR rules and finances. My husband took two months paternity leave (unpaid) and looked after our baby. We both work but he does more of the child-minding and housework Mon - Fri because his job is more flexible than mine, with less of a commute. Ok, he does more lawn mowing / putting up shelves than me and I bake more cakes, but housework is divided as equally as possible. I don't know how women whose partners "wouldn't think" of putting on a wash cope with working full time and having kids. They “don’t think” because they get away with not doing so.

If I have any advice to give to my daughter it will be don't get involved with a bloke who isn’t prepared to pull his weight in the house. If he's the kind of guy who expects someone else to unload the dishwasher and hang out the washing, don't have kids with him, or if you do, expect a life of relentless housework regardless of whether you do paid work or not.

There are two issues in this article – one is her difficulty with being a full time carer when her baby is small (which is par for the course I think) and the other is the fact that for (the majority?) of women, they are expected to continue to be the main carer and housecleaner in the family when they return to work. Personally I think the next big step for feminism and a general improvement in family life is for more men to step up to the mark and start looking after 50% of the **** and string beans, especially if both partners work full time.

Why don't more men take unpaid parental leave? It's not just for women and as I understand it, it’s available in Ireland. Employers wouldn't like it? Well, they're not keen on women having babies either, nor are they keen on us leaving on time, or asking for 80% but somehow it is only expected that women ask for this and put up with the employers moaning about the cost of employing childbearing women. Loss of money? Most women I know do a couple of months unpaid maternity leave anyway. Plus more and more women earn the same or similar to their partners at the point of having children so it’s not as if there is always a huge difference in who is not being paid.

My husband says the best thing he ever did was take those two months off. It was a tough slog and a steep learning curve but he loves his family and I really believe that we have a pretty balanced life only because he is willing to step outside the stereotype of the working father. We both win.

Semele

Fittle wrote: »

I think her use of such high-falluting words as 'self-abnegation' (wtf is that) and 'unacknowledged servitude' ruins the article.
She should just have said she struggles with parenting sometimes, as most of us do:rolleyes:

What? Why? Would her article be more sympathetic if it was "dumbed down"? Maybe that's just how she's used to expressing herself. I fail to see the point of your comment at all- if anything it just confirms her point that being educated/intellectual and being a mother are seen as mutally incompatible.

pickarooney

bourgie wrote: »

[I think it can be hard for women to stop the "maternal gatekeeping" and also get rid of this notion that men can't change nappies / wash the dishes / look after a small baby.

All joking aside, are there really people who believe this rubbish? Why would anyone go out with, much less have a family with someone they considered/knew to be so utterly incompetent?

metrovelvet

pickarooney wrote: »

All joking aside, are there really people who believe this rubbish? Why would anyone go out with, much less have a family with someone they considered/knew to be so utterly incompetent?

So they can control them.

Daisy M

metrovelvet wrote: »

So they can control them.

Do you really think so? That would be a really scary basis for any relationship.
Pickarooney I completely empathise with you re your job and wishing you had the choice to work less hours, I remember when my first child was 18mths and leaving my boring full time job due to the fact it wasnt paying me to work, people used to presume I missed it and was bored at home, I found that amazing spending extra time with my son was way more interesting than what I had been working at. Now I guess if I was someone who had f a career that I loved and was interested in, it may have a been different.
Tbh I think that any rational person knows that life will have to change when they have kids, figureing out that caring for another person 24hrs a day will require changes is not exactly rocket sience. I doubt there are many couples who thought that having a baby would not effect either one or both of their work commitments and that there would not be a temendous amount of work and compromise involved in the raising of their family.

Iwannahurl

bourgie wrote: »

I think it can be hard for women to stop the "maternal gatekeeping" and also get rid of this notion that men can't change nappies / wash the dishes / look after a small baby. And to let go and trust your partner to take as good care of your children as you do. Equally, it is time for more men to play a full role in childminding/household tasks especially if both are working.

pickarooney wrote: »

All joking aside, are there really people who believe this rubbish? Why would anyone go out with, much less have a family with someone they considered/knew to be so utterly incompetent?

In fact there is research suggesting that such "gatekeeping" is common. I recall reading something about this several months ago, but I can't recall the details now so I am unable to find the newspaper article or the original research paper.

The research was done by a US professor of social science, IIRC, and one of its conclusions was that some women who work full-time outside the home still regard housework and childcare as their domain. Rather than let their partner get on with it and do it their own way (eek?) some women may take a managerial approach to housework in addition to doing their day job. This may work in some relationships, but IMHO it could also lead to stress and conflict in both partners. There are no easy answers and no hard and fast rules -- there are big social patterns but every relationship also has its own twist.

Rebecca Asher discusses this in her Guardian article:

Mothers who begrudge their partners' lack of involvement, especially in the gruelling early stages of child-rearing, can pull up the drawbridge when it comes to the rewards. Helen, a full-time mother from Oxford, admits that she now feels territorial about her relationship with her daughter. "There was this long period of time when my partner wasn't interested at all in doing anything, and now that our daughter is much more fun, he's more interested in spending time with her. So there's a bit of, like, 'Actually, you can't do that. You can't ignore her for however many months when you think she's a bit boring and then suddenly decide that you want to spend time with her, but only when it suits you.'"

This kind of "maternal gatekeeping" can leave some fathers feeling discouraged, even depressed, and many talk of the pressure not to put a foot wrong. Matt says, "My wife is quite controlling. She gets upset if things aren't the way she wants them, so she takes on a lot of the responsibility, but resents it at the same time."

Bob echoes this: "It's considered desirable for me to be more involved, equally involved, with all aspects of childcare, but my opinion doesn't seem to be respected. It can be demoralising as a father if you feel your opinion is not seen as valid."

By the time my child was 12 months old, we were all more than ready for me to return to work. I saw that my son was keen to branch out into new environments and widen his circle of friends. I was certain that my husband wanted a change from my foul temper and demands that he do more, and yet do things exactly as I would. And I was definitely ready to earn my own money, rebuild a social life and have a place in "the world" again.

Daisy M

Iwannahurl wrote: »

In fact there is research Bob echoes By the time my child was 12 months old, we were all more than ready for me to return to work. I saw that my son was keen to branch out into new environments and widen his circle of friends.

Thats some 12mth old bloody hell I thought mine learning to walk at that age was a major achievement!:D
Btw I wannahurl I know thats a quote from the author not you.

bourgie

pickarooney wrote: »

All joking aside, are there really people who believe this rubbish? Why would anyone go out with, much less have a family with someone they considered/knew to be so utterly incompetent?

You would think so, wouldn't you! You should have a look at some of the Irish parenting boards outside boards. There are a lot of 1950s marriages out there, with the men spending all their free time on with their mates, down the pub and not doing any housework because "god love him, he wouldn't be able to find the cooker / iron properly / can't really see dirt / would let the children eat sweets all day". It is amazing but it appears to happen a lot and both partners are culpable.

I nicked maternal gatekeeping from the article but I definitely think it is valid in many ways. I know my husband got (rightly )annoyed with me when I'd get home from work and criticise how he'd been looking after the kids all day when all that was wrong was that he hadn't done things exactly how I'd like them. I definitely tried to project manage him. You do have to step back and respect how your partner does things. I'm talking about minor differences in parenting styles here, rather than big issues.

3DataModem

I believe that one of the greatest cons ever perpetrated has been convincing women that "work" is more important than "parenting".

Parenting can be a lonely, thankless, difficult grind. Work is immediately rewarding, renumerated, social and exciting, and gives a percieved status.

So we have convinced ourselves that work is somehow more important... but the real truth is it is just easier to go to work than stay at home with babies/toddlers.

ash23

3DataModem wrote: »

So we have convinced ourselves that work is somehow more important... but the real truth is it is just easier to go to work than stay at home with babies/toddlers.

Thats a bit misguided in fairness.
I work full time. I also stayed at home full time when my daughter was a baby, going back to work part time when she was 18 months and full time when she was 3.
I found being a stay at home parent easier in terms of getting things done, getting to the post office, the bank etc. I had time to go and get my grocery shopping. I wasn't constantly racing from A to B. I had time to cook meals, to plan what we were having for dinner. Life was slower paced and more leisurely. I could take her to the park and enjoy sunny days.
However I was lonely and I was bored and money was tight. I came to the conclusion that being at home full time wasn't for me.

Now I race from A to B, chasing my tail. If I have to pick up a parcel at the PO it's like a military operation getting from work to the PO without being too late for it closing and not being late collecting my daughter from creche. Ihave to balance sick days and school plays, doctors appts and dentist visits with my job, all the while trying to not look like I'm taking loads of time off and that I'm working just as hard as my childless counterparts which has caused issues. When she was smaller I was given a warning about the number of days I had to go home when she was sick. In my last job it was frowned upon not to stay late and work overtime. I left and luckily am working somewhere which expects you to go home at quitting time.
On the plus side I find it rewarding in a way that I personally didn't find when I was at home.

There are pros and cons to each but I wouldn't think that either is necessarily easier overall.In my dream scenario I'd work 8 to 3, term time.

metrovelvet

3DataModem wrote: »

I believe that one of the greatest cons ever perpetrated has been convincing women that "work" is more important than "parenting".

Parenting can be a lonely, thankless, difficult grind. Work is immediately rewarding, renumerated, social and exciting, and gives a percieved status.

So we have convinced ourselves that work is somehow more important... but the real truth is it is just easier to go to work than stay at home with babies/toddlers.

It might be easier to do that, if you have someone else around to share the pitfalls of it with, like to take turns if the child is sick, doctors appointments, etc.

If you don't then you'll probably get fired anyway unless you have a forgiving boss.

Not to mention showing for work chronically sleep deprived in the early years.

Wantobe

3DataModem wrote: »

Work is immediately rewarding, renumerated, social and exciting, and gives a percieved status.

Not always true though- where my children go to school there's a bit of status going the other way around- ie we're doing well enough to be able to afford for one of us to stay at home...:rolleyes: This is the land of the suvs and mpvs, designer sunglasses and outfits are de rigeur. The one time I had a day off and went down to the gym when my children were in school it was full of 'yummie mummies'.

I think women in general are self critical anyway- if we're sahms, we resent career women, if we're career women we feel guilty and jealous of sahms.

I've been both, now working but a lot of the time wish I could be a sahm, especially now both of our children are at school.:D

pickarooney

Going back towards the OP a bit - one thing I think most, if not all new parents underestimate is the way time seems to take on a whole new meaning with children.

On your own you can plan a list of 20 things to do in a day and get them done. With a child the hours just sort of seep away as you constantly gather, pack, dress, change, cajole and command. Getting a few groceries becomes a two-hour expedition, hoovering the floor takes eight times as long as the wee'uns plug out the cable every 5 seconds and splill everything within reach onto the bit you just cleaned. A quick meal is most of the evening... At the end of the day you have trouble understanding, much less explaining where all the time went. You're exhausted and you've only 'done' two things (while 7-level multitaksing).

Iwannahurl

Wantobe wrote: »

Not always true though- where my children go to school there's a bit of status going the other way around- ie we're doing well enough to be able to afford for one of us to stay at home...:rolleyes: This is the land of the suvs and mpvs, designer sunglasses and outfits are de rigeur. The one time I had a day off and went down to the gym when my children were in school it was full of 'yummie mummies'.

I think women in general are self critical anyway- if we're sahms, we resent career women, if we're career women we feel guilty and jealous of sahms.

I've been both, now working but a lot of the time wish I could be a sahm, especially now both of our children are at school.:D

Perhaps the generic term should be SAHP?

As a (poor) SAHP myself, I am aware of the varied advantages of being in paid employment. Keenly aware, in fact, since I have no money, no status, no work-related social life, no work-related intellectual or problem-solving challenges, no sizeable chunk of time when I'm not with one or both of the kids.

Since our oldest goes to a creche 5 days a week, my OH tells me I'm lucky and possibly in a rare position. That's true, and the two together are more than twice as much work, but one child still takes up all your time (OK, so I'm typing this while she sits on the floor pulling all the story books off the shelf). By the way, both my parents are dead and all my siblings emigrated many years ago. My partner now has only one surviving parent, who happens to have a job and who lives 5-hours drive away. A sister who lives nearby has a toddler herself. Therefore no extended family to help out, as Rebecca Asher had.

Talking about (lamenting) the challenging details of ones own domestic arrangements is probably a personal thing best discussed with ones partner. But the multitude of individual domestic arrangements do not occur in a social vacuum and that's where the personal definitely becomes political.

Frequently when I am out and about during the day with my 18-month-old daughter I see groups of women in their 30s and 40s. They are plainly enjoying some leisure time, usually walking, chatting, shopping, having coffee and the like. I doubt very much that they are unemployed and just passing the time. It is reasonable to conclude that they are mothers whose children are now in primary or secondary school, leaving them with several child-free, though not work-free, hours during the day. They don't look stressed, care-worn, sleep-deprived and miserably idle. They are well-dressed, fit (many of them), healthy, active, and blooming where they are planted.

Presumably the drudgery years are behind them, and they no longer have snotty, whinging, crud-encrusted, hyperactive, mini-vandals gnawing at their heels. Friends who had children earlier tell us that it gets better (though no doubt others who started even earlier are saying "wait until they're teenagers") and that does keep me going.

Perhaps Rebecca Asher wrote her book (burning even more midnight oil) right in the middle of the really stressful early years of parenting. No doubt she was right about many of the social issues, and indeed she supported her arguments with evidence. But maybe her perspective will be a bit different in a few years?

Perhaps it's the stress that is the primary cause of the conflict. If we can be a bit more forgiving of ourselves and each other, and remember why we're putting ourselves to all this bother, maybe the practical solutions to domestic strife will come easier?

ash23

I remember the moment when I realised what my life was going to be like as a mother. My daughter was about 2 weeks old. I'd been home from hospital 3 days and my mother had gone home. I was alone, me and baby.
And I needed to have a shower...........

Ended up with baby in her seat in the bathroom while I had the quickest shower on record.
Just trying to solve the puzzle of "what will I do with her while I need a few minutes?" made me realise that this was it now, my life, my free time, my grooming habits, all had to revolve around a squirming mass of chub who couldn't even hold her own head up.

And as the years pass, it gets easier in some respects. She can get in and out of the car. She can dress herself.
But she needs nearly as much attention. The issues are less physical in terms of wiping noses and lifting etc. But they can be more complex, dealing with issues like self esteem, bullying, crushes, b*tchy "friends" and (god help us all) the opposite sex. And thats just the tweens. Then you're into sex, drugs, alcohol........dreading it!

Having older kids has it's own set of issues. In fact, I actually feel more guilty about being away from my child now than I did when she was a baby/toddler.
I do have more leisure time now than when she was a tot and I don't look like a shambles from sleep deprivation so from the outside it can look easier with older kids. But you really just swap one type of stress and joy for another.

Moonbeam

I have a good job a 2 year old and a 9 week old and I have to say I find it so much easier being at home with them then going out to work with 1 of them.
I don't have much of a social life,have wonderful grandparents but they don't live very near,have good friends though it is rare that I see them. The thought of going back to work is awful,I love where I work and only work a 3 day week so really do have the best of both worlds and still find it tiring.

Daisy M

I am just wondering if this book has given any of the up sides of parenting, I would imagine that if it doesnt it would create a bit of anxiety in anyone who was thinking about becoming a parent and wanting to become as informed as possible.
Personally while there are times I find been a parent hard I really feel that I have been blessed to be able to be a mother to my children, just been their mother is a huge source of happiness to me I am hugely proud of them and I would never go back and do anything different had I the choice.

metrovelvet

ash23 wrote: »

I remember the moment when I realised what my life was going to be like as a mother. My daughter was about 2 weeks old. I'd been home from hospital 3 days and my mother had gone home. I was alone, me and baby.
And I needed to have a shower...........

Ended up with baby in her seat in the bathroom while I had the quickest shower on record.
Just trying to solve the puzzle of "what will I do with her while I need a few minutes?" made me realise that this was it now, my life, my free time, my grooming habits, all had to revolve around a squirming mass of chub who couldn't even hold her own head up.

And as the years pass, it gets easier in some respects. She can get in and out of the car. She can dress herself.
But she needs nearly as much attention. The issues are less physical in terms of wiping noses and lifting etc. But they can be more complex, dealing with issues like self esteem, bullying, crushes, b*tchy "friends" and (god help us all) the opposite sex. And thats just the tweens. Then you're into sex, drugs, alcohol........dreading it!

Having older kids has it's own set of issues. In fact, I actually feel more guilty about being away from my child now than I did when she was a baby/toddler.
I do have more leisure time now than when she was a tot and I don't look like a shambles from sleep deprivation so from the outside it can look easier with older kids. But you really just swap one type of stress and joy for another.

I half agree with you. Yes different ages, different challenges, but I have to say now that my child is three and a half, getting some decent sleep has made a huge difference to being able to even cope with the day ahead of you.

Moonbeam

I couldn't cope with one child if I didn't get sleep,I could cope with 10 if I had a good nights sleep.
It makes a huge difference.

flowerchild

I find it very challenging, and my experience is much better than most.

I have a husband that did all night time care, from the get-go, who has done vitually all nappies and who does all household washing. We share care, and it is not him 'helping out', it is a real division of the (big) job.

I went back to work when the little ones were 5 weeks old and it was hard, but I liked being able to see/work with other adults as well as nurture/love my little ones.

I am lucky enough to work for myself so I have lots of autonomy but sometimes I am away thousands of km from my family just to earn money and I miss them. But I keep on thinking that this is a choice and anything can be put on the table as an option and talked through. So I feel like my life is tough but within control.

Parenting has a lot of drudgery, but so do most jobs. There is rarely a role that is without a downside.

I think one of the less emphasised areas of sexism is the immense pressure on men to be 'good earners' for their families. Some stay in jobs they hate, I am sure, in order to do the right thing by their families. Some work many long hours of unpaid overtime to secure their job in a tight economy, and then get criticised when they get home.

And many women do gatekeep. I was shocked how many mothers in my mothers group would criticise their husbands, laugh at them even, for how badly they changed nappies/fed babies etc. It became a source of power that as jealously guarded.

My four year old turns to his dad when he is really upset. Sometimes that is confronting, but I just remind myself how special that is, for my husband, and for all men. They can be as nurturing as the next person. Just give them a structured opportunity to do it, and personal encouragement and support.

My husband and I parent slightly differently, and I think that is fine. It's good for kids to know that everyone isn't the same and to understand that from early on.

So in many ways I agree with the article. But I see the gender issues from a different angle.

metrovelvet

^ Women judge each other on the same things though don't they?

I only went to those toddler groups two or three times. I found them intolerably dull, with talk of nappies and sterilising and sudocreme. Jesus Christ.

Doesnt anyone want to talk about Anna Karenina?

I had to watch Desperate Housewives just to follow a conversation. I'd welcome a few dads in there so I could escape the nappy talk.

The gatekeeping-never noticed it too much myself. But in Ireland, once you become a mother your identity is eclipsed by it, so any threat to that, to it being appopriated, is going to be met with slander.

At the same time, there are a lot of men who hide behind the 'women are better at those things' to get out of doing anything.

I REALLY shouldn't have to say you are lucky FC, I shouldnt have to say it, that you had so much support, it should be par for the course, but unfortunately, I do have to say you are lucky.

wolfpawnat

I gave up my college degree and as a result my career to have my child, daddy still has a bit of a social life (not a huge one, not near what he used to have) and I don't ever really want to go out. Daddy is still studying his degree. We chose him to continue as it is the more financially viable option in the long run.

I get depressed some days and I feel that I am missing out on the fun times that I should be having on my age, I am jealous at himself for being in college and getting a career and I get upset that I have not seen the girlies in forever but 90% of the time I would not change it for anything.

I made the decision to continue my pregnancy and not put the child up for adoption so it was my choice to have this lifestyle, if the person who is referred to in the OP did not want to sacrifice her career, she should not have had a child, parents have to sacrifice for their children and most of the time it is the mother that has to do this. It has always been the way, since the time of the hunter gathers pre 2000BC, mothers are naturally (supposedly) the more nurturing parent and yes society still expects us to be the ones to, but that is just the way things are!

As they say, the person in the OP needs to build a bridge and get over it!

wonderfulname

Wow, that's a lot of very big decisions to have to take all at once. I have to say I'm very respectful of how selfless you seem to have been in your choices.

I don't agree that women are naturally the more nurturing parent, dads can be incredibly nurturing too! But yeah our society does put it into mens heads that being too nurturing is emasculating, you'll never see a house-husband on television who isn't a whipped little choir boy, its unfortunate, I bet the more uptight guys would be happier if they could let loose.

Get daddy to stay in tomorrow night and go out even for an hour or two, or just during the day if he's not working, nothing wrong with a coffee and a chat.

wolfpawnat

wonderfulname wrote: »

Wow, that's a lot of very big decisions to have to take all at once. I have to say I'm very respectful of how selfless you seem to have been in your choices.

I don't agree that women are naturally the more nurturing parent, dads can be incredibly nurturing too! But yeah our society does put it into mens heads that being too nurturing is emasculating, you'll never see a house-husband on television who isn't a whipped little choir boy, its unfortunate, I bet the more uptight guys would be happier if they could let loose.

Get daddy to stay in tomorrow night and go out even for an hour or two, or just during the day if he's not working, nothing wrong with a coffee and a chat.

He is a great dad, they play sports together and generally have me f-ing and blinding while playing soccer in doors/ wrestling on made beds etc, but no way will daddy allow little man give him a kiss goodnight or anything.

He only goes out about once a month now and to be honest I love the night to myself to watch dvd's etc, since I cannot watch them with the little fella during the day. I still get out and go for coffee, but I choose not to go on nights out. I get to the hair dressers and the like and if I were to say I want to go to the gym, as long as daddy has his study done he would gladly look after the child.

I just accepted the consequences of my decision, many people think they can have a child and still have the carefree life. Many people can still continue a large proportion of the life they had before, but don't expect constant weekend nights out and restaurant dinners if you want to be a hands on parent. Something has to give and it should not be the child!