Has anyone tried those 20% alcohol kits? (Legal!)

Darkginger

I'm just starting off my first one of these - it produces 5 litres of plain 20% liquor, but by fermenting, not distilling (which is how it's legal), and then you add flavourings to make it like half-strength vodka, whiskey, or numerous other spirits.

Just wondered if anyone has experience with these kits? I'm doing it for fun really, but if you've got any hints about ending up with a palatable brew, I'd love to hear them. Planning on getting 4 bottles of 'vodka' and 2 bottles of 'whiskey' out of this first attempt. If it's awful, I suppose I can bury it in Diet Coke or something!

foghlu

Never tried them myself but have been tempted to give them a go for the laugh, if it tastes like crap just make a nice big bowl of punch with it

Look forward to hearing how you get on with it though!!

Darkginger

Will do - this morning, it's started bubbling in a BIG way - lots of fermentation going on in there - watch this space - it's supposed to take 3 weeks to ferment out, so I'll report back then

BeerNut

I've been fascinated by these as well. So what comes in the kit?

Darkginger

You get a sachet of yeast nutrient, one of Bentonite and a turbo yeast to start the whole thing off, then stabiliser, activated carbon, and 3 stages of finings to purify and clear the stuff at the end. It could well be cheaper to buy these separately, but for a first go, I wanted it all there, as simply as possible. Once it's made, you need to buy a flavouring pack (each one does 2 bottles worth for under €2) to make it into your 'spirit' of choice - there's a huge variety of these to choose from - everything from French brandy to absinthe (I'm going for 4 bottles of 'vodka' and 2 'whiskey').

The only other expense is the 1.63 kg of sugar.

BeerNut

So are there any fermentables in the kit, or is it just all your own sugar?

Darkginger

Nope, that's it - you add your own sugar and off it goes. Looks like beige sludge at the moment, but I have high hopes!

jimi_t2

Darkginger wrote: »

Nope, that's it - you add your own sugar and off it goes. Looks like beige sludge at the moment, but I have high hopes!

Could you (theoretically) double up on your sugar and get 40% ABV?

Darkginger

I wish But I don't think it's possible since the high alcohol level would kill off the yeast well before it got to 40%. As far as I know, there aren't many (any?) yeasts out there that will ferment to much over 20%.

BeerNut

I think this stuff is about as high as you can go: 25% ABV. My guess is that the kit contains a champagne yeast or variation thereof.

oblivious

BeerNut wrote: »

I think this stuff is about as high as you can go: 25% ABV. My guess is that the kit contains a champagne yeast or variation thereof.

It’s a variation of distilling yeast believe, but produces some higher ester an such and hence why the activated carbon is there to scrub out the off flavours.

oblivious

Darkginger wrote: »

The only other expense is the 1.63 kg of sugar.

Just check it’s not glucose instead of table sugar some of those yeast do require simple glucose to hit the 25% levels

enda1

Out of interest, in a slightly related point, has anyone ever tried freeze-distilling?

It shouldn't be illegal I guess cause its not about boiling, but the infrastructure involved* I guess is out of scope of even the most adventurous amateur.

*Unless you want the cheap and cheerful freezer technique. But I guess a constant mixing slusher with cooling circuit which can go down to close to alcohol freezing point could be more successful (pure)?

Degsy

Made a batch of it recently..it was Vodka fruit shot or something..i tweaked the recipie so i used more sugar,more water and left it to ferment for longer(the recipies predisposes no prior knowledge and quite a lot of wastage).
Anyway,i got just over 6 litres and it tastes like vodka and redbull..pretty fecking strong too..i would estimate at least 20% abv.

Good fun and good drink too!

BeerNut

enda1 wrote: »

It should be illegal I guess cause its not about boiling

Do you mean "shouldn't"? Anyway the law says very very little about what's legal and what isn't when it comes to distilling. From my reading of it, illicit freeze-distilling is exactly as illegal as any other method. Why would boiling make a difference?

enda1

BeerNut wrote: »

Do you mean "shouldn't"? Anyway the law says very very little about what's legal and what isn't when it comes to distilling. From my reading of it, illicit freeze-distilling is exactly as illegal as any other method. Why would boiling make a difference?

Yes shouldn't of course. Sorry.

Cause I thought the law was about the safety point, meaning the volatile airborne flammable agent and high pressure situation leading to rooves being blown off houses!

Of course if it is illicit it is illegal, by definition.

My query is whether or not it is illicit/illegal!

BeerNut

enda1 wrote: »

Cause I thought the law was about the safety point

Nope. It's about tax. It's Revenue that will prosecute you, not the Health & Safety Authority.

enda1 wrote: »

Of course if it is illicit it is illegal, by definition.

My query is whether or not it is illicit/illegal!

Apologies: I used "illicit" as shorthand for "without a licence". Brewing beer without a licence ("illicit brewing", I guess) is not illegal. Sloppy language use on my part.

Distillation without a licence is illegal. The law says nothing (AFAIK) about methods.

the beer revolu

BeerNut wrote: »

Nope. It's about tax. It's Revenue that will prosecute you, not the Health & Safety Authority.

Apologies: I used "illicit" as shorthand for "without a licence". Brewing beer without a licence ("illicit brewing", I guess) is not illegal. Sloppy language use on my part.

Distillation without a licence is illegal. The law says nothing (AFAIK) about methods.

So the likes of Tactical Nuclear Penguin and their ilk are not beer as distillation has been used?
Would they need a separate licence to produce this beer?

BeerNut

the beer revolu wrote: »

So the likes of Tactical Nuclear Penguin and their ilk are not beer as distillation has been used?

This has nothing to do with the definition of beer. TNP is beer in the UK 'cos, AFAIK, if you call it beer it's beer. In Ireland anything over 28% ABV, regardless of the production method, is taxed as a spirit. It can probably still be called beer from a labelling point of view, though. Our labelling laws are woefully lax.

the beer revolu wrote: »

Would they need a separate licence to produce this beer?

I don't think so. Scottish law is funny about stuff like this, and easier-going than the rest of UK and certainly Ireland. It was distilled at an ice-cream factory which, AFAIK, is not licensed. Though I'd say in Scotland you get licences to distill in Christmas crackers.

rubadub

Darkginger wrote: »

Just wondered if anyone has experience with these kits? I'm doing it for fun really, but if you've got any hints about ending up with a palatable brew,

I would try it without the flavouring first, any vodka or whiskey flavourings I tasted were manky, they were sort of trying to emulate a cheap & nasty vodka. Many would define vodka as a clear tasteless, odourless spirit -so it should be devoid of flavouring, after charcoaling your "neutral wine" will have little flavour so I would not add any back, unless it is to make liquers, which work well. If making liquers do not add anywhere near the sugar they recommend, it is usually far too much and ends up sickly, -you can always add more sugar but not take it back out.

Darkginger wrote: »

You get a sachet of yeast nutrient, one of Bentonite and a turbo yeast to start the whole thing off, then stabiliser, activated carbon, and 3 stages of finings to purify and clear the stuff at the end. It could well be cheaper to buy these separately, but for a first go,

It would be far cheaper, I have gotten turbo yeasts myself, which usually do 5 gallon batches up to 18% or maybe 20%. The last few % take a long time, I got some to 22% before. Aswell as being quicker there are less nasties/congeners produced at lower %, premium distiller yeasts will usually go to just 14%, there have been a lot of developments in the past decade or so on these yeasts, they do reckon they can get them to go higher and higher as they develop them more. I got some prototype distiller yeasts sent to me for testing by one company and they were very good.

You can fine out your finished wine and preferably properly polish it with wine filters. Then you can pass it through charcoal granules (I bought large bags of them), in these kits you usually get charcoal powder which is NASTY stuff, do NOT DROP IT!!!, it will not wash off. The charcoal granules adsorb (not absorb) the nasties and off smells/tastes and if the wine you process is crystal clear then you can "reactivate" the charcoal by heating it and you can resuse it.

A lot of alcopops are netural wines with flavours added, like mad-dog 20/20, while smirnoff ice has spirits added, -this means lower duty on wine based ones. Same goes for fake baileys drinks, some have little or no whiskey in them, just these processed neutral wines.

oblivious wrote: »

It’s a variation of distilling yeast believe, but produces some higher ester an such and hence why the activated carbon is there to scrub out the off flavours.

Actually pure sugar brews are very pure congener wise and this is why distillers use them, they have bare trace amounts of methanol produced, while beer or cider would have a lot more. There will always be off flavours, in general the lower the brew temp the better.

Freeze distillation is illegal here AFAIK, this one law dates to 1937, probably has some newer terms too.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1937/en/si/0095.html

"Distiller" means a person who manufactures spirits in Saorstát Éireann whether by distillation or any other process and "distillery" means the entered premises of a distiller.

EDIT: also found this, I always saw 22% mentioned on duty free forms.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/act/pub/0008/sec0043.html

a) in subsection (1) of section 73 by substituting the following for the definition of “spirits”:


“ ‘spirits’ means any product which exceeds 1.2% vol and which is—


(a) distilled ethyl alcohol,


(b) an alcoholic beverage the full alcohol content of which is the result of a process of distillation,


(c) any other product falling within CN Code 2207 or 2208, even when such product forms part of a product which is not an alcohol product, or


(d) any beverage exceeding 22% vol,


and includes any such product which contains a nonalcoholic product, whether in solution or not;”,

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1975/en/si/0307.html

In addition to any other duty which may be chargeable, there shall be charged, levied and paid on spirits distilled or manufactured by any other process whatsoever in the State or imported into the State a duty of excise at the several rates specified in the second column of the First Schedule to this Order together with, in the case of immature spirits that have not been warehoused or have been warehoused for less than three years, an additional duty of excise at the several rates specified in the third column of that Schedule and so in proportion, in the case of both duties, for any less quantity:

Freeze distillation is not great anyway, there was a recent enough discovery on how to separate alcohol very easily & safely but I won't be posting about it!

Darkginger

If by some accidental miracle I produce something that's over 22% - I guess I'll just have to drink the evidence! Thanks for the advice about flavourings - I'll see what it's like without any to start off with. This is not a brew I was planning on sampling straight - I was intending to use it in mixed drinks - and if it's a success, then next time I'll be buying the ingredients in larger packs, individually. If not, I guess it's back to the mead!

BeerNut

Darkginger wrote: »

If by some accidental miracle I produce something that's over 22% - I guess I'll just have to drink the evidence!

I think it's still legal as long as it isn't distilled.

rubadub

BeerNut wrote: »

I think it's still legal as long as it isn't distilled.

Seems a weird grey area, when they made the law they probably thought you could never ferment above 22% and so set it as a limit as a foresight to people doing some odd method of separation like the "any other process" catch-all. I can't find the homebrew laws for Ireland, I found the US ones which have limits to how much you can brew

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Is_homebrewing_legal_in_the_United_States%3F

The current federal limit on homebrewing beer is 100 gallons for a single adult, or 200 gallons for a household with two or more adults..

individual states are free to pass their own laws limiting or even forbidding homebrewing. In Utah, for example, homebrewing used to be completely illegal, but this changed in March of 2009

Found there is a 23% turbo yeast out there, on one forum a lad described the brew

Second day of fermenting. Never had anything go as ferocious. The lid on the fermenter is moving up and down as the pressure builds up
quickly then releases as 1 large burst. No overflow from froth even
though I only have 3cm gap from surface of liquid to lid. Temperature
of mash at 23 Celsius, ambient 8 Celsius. Looks good up to now, might
have to take blanket off fermenter if temp goes up any more. Will
report back Friday ish.

This Irish site has it cheap enough
http://www.homebrewwest.ie/alcotec-23-turbo-yeast-743-p.asp

The new Alcotec 23% turbo yeast is based around a completely new class of recipes containing activated carbon, present during fermentation. Together with new yeast strains and a different kind of trace minerals, we are now able to make more alcohol from a fermentation than ever before. With the new Alcotec 23% turbo pure, it is now possible to break the magical 20% alcohol barrier by fermentation alone.

I guess the carbon must take out some nasties which would otherwise be toxic to the yeast.

BeerNut

rubadub wrote: »

I can't find the homebrew laws for Ireland

The only one I know of is:

Finance Act 1992 wrote:

91.—(1) Subject to compliance with any conditions the Commissioners see fit to impose, the duty of excise imposed by section 90 shall not be charged or levied on beer—

(a) not exceeding 0.5% vol.;

(b) produced in the State by a private brewer, provided that the said beer is brewed by the said brewer solely for his own domestic use.

(2) (a) Beer brewed by a private brewer shall not be sold or offered for sale by any person.

(b) A person who contravenes the provisions of paragraph (a) of this subsection shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to an excise penalty of £1,000.

(3) Any beer in respect of which an offence was committed under subsection (2) and any vessels, utensils and materials for brewing in the possession of a private brewer in respect of which such an offence was committed shall be liable to forfeiture.

Technically, if anyone else drinks your homebrew outside your house, you're breaking the law :rolleyes:

Darkginger

Reporting back, as promised - it's taken this long for fermentation to stop, (almost a month, started 28.3.11) so today I got to add the stabiliser and liquid carbon. Finings tomorrow, then 3 days later we should have something to taste. It's a nasty black liquid at the moment, but am following instructions and agitating it every few hours. Roll on Wednesday!

Devi

How did it fair out Darkginger?

Thinking about getting one of these myself.

Darkginger

Well... it kinda hit a snag at the clearing stage - I followed the instructions and siphoned it into another demi-john, bunged in the liquid carbon stuff, and added finings (this after 5 weeks fermentation as opposed to the 3 claimed, it seemed to have stopped).

At this point it started off fermenting again, throwing all the added charcoal into a state of suspension. It's been sitting there failing to clear for a while now - though it is *gradually* clearing from the top downwards. I might add the wine finings I didn't use on the wine if it's not significantly clearer by Tuesday, or I might just leave it.

Either way, I have faith that it will become drinkable at some point, and I'll let you know how the tasting goes if I'm not blinded in the process

Degsy

Darkginger wrote: »

Well... it kinda hit a snag at the clearing stage - I followed the instructions and siphoned it into another demi-john, bunged in the liquid carbon stuff, and added finings (this after 5 weeks fermentation as opposed to the 3 claimed, it seemed to have stopped).

At this point it started off fermenting again, throwing all the added charcoal into a state of suspension. It's been sitting there failing to clear for a while now - though it is *gradually* clearing from the top downwards. I might add the wine finings I didn't use on the wine if it's not significantly clearer by Tuesday, or I might just leave it.

Either way, I have faith that it will become drinkable at some point, and I'll let you know how the tasting goes if I'm not blinded in the process

Ant news or updates?

I'm starting a turbo-yeast brew today.

sharingan

BeerNut wrote: »

Technically, if anyone else drinks your homebrew outside your house, you're breaking the law :rolleyes:

oooo ... scary.

I used to bring my home brew to the street festival of the galway races, for general consumption ...

Saruman

And yet, if you invited loads of people over to your house for free homebrew, it might be classed as a sibín.

Darkginger

Oo, hello, had forgotten about this thread - I have to say it turned out pretty damn horrible with a very weird kind of synthetic sweet taste to it - but I also have to admit that we drowned it in Diet Coke and had a very entertaining evening as a result Someone gave me another kit to make Sambucca-flavoured 22% stuff - that was a Christmas gift, and I've yet to start it! Maybe tomorrow...