Record numbers of Irish people are joining the British army.

cyrusdvirus

Manic Moran wrote: »

Seriously, is there anyone still in the British Army who was around in 1972? You might as well say that one shouldn't join the Irish Army as they are responsible for the Ballyseedy Massacre.

NTM

Well said Manic, but the main difference is that Bloody Sunday was a civil rights march, and the murder of unarmed civilians, whereas Ballyseedy was the murder of unarmed prisoners.

This is why people still bring up things like Bloody Sunday, probably in much the same way the Kent State shootings would be brought up in your adopted homeland. There really is nothing in the recent history of a western state where events like these have happened, and therefore they are always going to be simmering just under the public conciousness.

Utrinque Paratus

gatecrash wrote: »

Well said Manic, but the main difference is that Bloody Sunday was a civil rights march, and the murder of unarmed civilians, whereas Ballyseedy was the murder of unarmed prisoners.

This is why people still bring up things like Bloody Sunday, probably in much the same way the Kent State shootings would be brought up in your adopted homeland. There really is nothing in the recent history of a western state where events like these have happened, and therefore they are always going to be simmering just under the public conciousness.

quote
there really is nothing in the recent history of a western state where events like these have happened,

.....Actually many western states have had such incidents. Many alot worse.

The Paris massacre of 1961 refers to a massacre in Paris on 17 October 1961, during the Algerian War (1954–62). Under orders from the head of the Parisian police, Maurice Papon, the French police attacked an illegal but peacefulI][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"]citation needed[/URL][/I demonstration of some 30,000 pro-FLN Algerians. Two months before, FLN had decided to increase the bombing in France and to resume the campaign against the pro-France Algerians and against the rival Algerian nationalist organization called MNA in France. After 37 years of denial, the French government acknowledged 40 deaths in 1998, although there are estimates of over 200.[1]

cyrusdvirus

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

.....Actually nearly every western state has had such incidents. Many alot worse.

The Paris massacre of 1961 refers to a massacre in Paris on 17 October 1961, during the Algerian War (1954–62). Under orders from the head of the Parisian police, Maurice Papon, the French police attacked an illegal but peacefulI][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"]citation needed[/URL][/I demonstration of some 30,000 pro-FLN Algerians. Two months before, FLN had decided to increase the bombing in France and to resume the campaign against the pro-France Algerians and against the rival Algerian nationalist organization called MNA in France. After 37 years of denial, the French government acknowledged 40 deaths in 1998, although there are estimates of over 200.[1]

The Paris massacre was even further back than Bloody Sunday or Kent State, 10 years...

suppose i should really have added the word relatively, as in the relatively recent history of most western states.

And i'm no IRA apologist, i think my views on any terrorist organisation ahve been made quite clear on these here fora...

Fratton Fred

gatecrash wrote: »

The Paris massacre was even further back than Bloody Sunday or Kent State, 10 years...

suppose i should really have added the word relatively, as in the relatively recent history of most western states.

And i'm no IRA apologist, i think my views on any terrorist organisation ahve been made quite clear on these here fora...

the famine was even further back but that gets rolled out pretty regularly.

Oh_Noes

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

LondonIrish90 dont waste your time, this guy is just another barstool republican with a very big chip.

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

This comment shows in abundance your levels of ignorance, hatred, and cowardice.

Also, rather strange how your countrymen (who no doubt would be ashamed to have any association with a complete idiot like you)

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the famine was even further back but that gets rolled out pretty regularly.

So, name calling and stating that something happened 39 years ago is the argument is the response?

Nice thread.

Fratton Fred

Oh_Noes wrote: »

So, name calling and stating that something happened 39 years ago is the argument is the response?

Nice thread.

I'm just curious to know what the cut off point is. 40 years, 50 years or never.

I would be very surprised if any army anywhere in the world has not been implicated in some form of atrocity.

gizmo555

Manic Moran wrote: »

Seriously, is there anyone still in the British Army who was around in 1972? You might as well say that one shouldn't join the Irish Army as they are responsible for the Ballyseedy Massacre.

NTM

Hmmm . . . everyone who was involved at Ballyseedy, which took place almost half a century before Bloody Sunday, is long since dead. On the other hand, the Chief of the General Staff of the British Army as recently as 2006, Michael Jackson, was present on Bloody Sunday as an officer of the Parachute Regiment.

Not really a good comparison, IMO.

Utrinque Paratus

gizmo555 wrote: »

Hmmm . . . everyone who was involved at Ballyseedy, which took place almost half a century before Bloody Sunday, is long since dead. On the other hand, the Chief of the General Staff of the British Army as recently as 2006, Michael Jackson, was present on Bloody Sunday as an officer of the Parachute Regiment.

Not really a good comparison, IMO.

So what, he was simply an adjutant on the ground, he was not directly involved with the Support Company who believed they had come under sniper fire.

danbohan

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

So what, he was simply an adjutant on the ground, he was not directly involved with the Support Company who believed they had come under sniper fire.

of course many of the nazis hung by the british after the war could say they were only there as adjutant capacity as well .

Utrinque Paratus

danbohan wrote: »

of course many of the nazis hung by the british after the war could say they were only there as adjutant capacity as well .

Only an idiot would compare the Nazis with the British army.:rolleyes:

But at least you have now given your game away.

32_4_1

just another sad example of what this country and its people have become. bending over backwards to defend the british army after the massacre of its own people.

sometimes i wish our ancestors never did fight for freedom because they've just been disgraced again and again by future generations. not only by future governments, but by the easily manipulated citizens. the levels of revisionism by its own people in defence of the british army and loyalists has been ridiculous over the last 10 years. but hey for pointing this out, i guess im just another barstool republican.....the modern cliché churned out by modern day west brit revisionists

danbohan

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

Only an idiot would compare the Nazis with the British army.:rolleyes:

But at least you have now given your game away.

true , apologizes to all nazis out there !

32_4_1

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

Only an idiot would compare the Nazis with the British army.:rolleyes:

But at least you have now given your game away.

why. the effect of british oppression is still felt all over the world especially in south africa. i think you meant to say, in the greater scheme of things, only an idiot would compare 12 years of nazi terrorism to countless hundreds by the british army.....the record holders for the most deaths to innocent civilians all over the world

Utrinque Paratus

danbohan wrote: »

true , apologizes to all nazis out there !

Actually, it just totally defeats your argument.

danbohan

Utrinque Paratus wrote: »

Actually, it just totally defeats your argument.

if for once posters like you made an effort to be constructive and to accept that many attrocitys were carried out by the british army in northern ireland and elsewhere then perhaps we would not have these arguments at all , would we

Fratton Fred

32_4_1 wrote: »

why. the effect of british oppression is still felt all over the world especially in south africa. i think you meant to say, in the greater scheme of things, only an idiot would compare 12 years of nazi terrorism to countless hundreds by the british army.....the record holders for the most deaths to innocent civilians all over the world

Exaggerate much?

32_4_1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exaggerate much?

no, not really

danbohan

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Exaggerate much?

denial much ?

Fratton Fred

32_4_1 wrote: »

no, not really

So let me get this right. You and Dan think the British army are responsible for more civilian deaths than Nazi Germany? Would you care to back that up?

Remembering of course 6m people were killed in the holocaust alone.

danbohan

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So let me get this right. You and Dan think the British army are responsible for more civilian deaths than Nazi Germany? Would you care to back that up?

Remembering of course 6m people were killed in the holocaust alone.

well lets see fred , afghanstian , india , africa , australia, ireland , america , etc etc where your armys occupied and murdered the natives over several centurys , i imagine mass murder one of the very few occasions where the english actually beat the germans

Fratton Fred

danbohan wrote: »

well lets see fred , afghanstian , india , africa , australia, ireland , america , etc etc where your armys occupied and murdered the natives over several centurys , i imagine mass murder one of the very few occasions where the english actually beat the germans

You really are nothing more than a wind up merchant are you.

danbohan

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You really are nothing more than a wind up merchant are you.

so you say fred , so are you going to tell us your armies did not mass murder the natives in those countrys ? . what baffles me is the inability of english people to see what has been carried out throughout history in their name and yet the are very quick to attack (and rightly so) the germans /nazis for their hideous crimes

Fratton Fred

The British army carried out many atrocities, no one could ever deny that, but it never engaged in the systematic slaughter on an industrial scale that the nazis did, it is a joke to claim otherwise.

PatsytheNazi

Dilan Shaggy Pinkeye wrote: »

I remember coming across some statistic saying that at the time of the American Civil War, 42% of the British armed forces were Irish born. As this was post-famine, I found it hard to believe.

Can anyone put me right?

It's possible, economic conscripts. As soon as training was finished Irish regiments were sent to the far side of the world while English regiments etc, were brought into the country. The reason been, that they didn't want the possibility of insubordinate Irish with guns in their hands in their own country just in case they might turn them on their occupiers some day.

Fratton Fred

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

It's possible, economic conscripts. As soon as training was finished Irish regiments were sent to the far side of the world while English regiments etc, were brought into the country. The reason been, that they didn't want the possibility of insubordinate Irish with guns in their hands in their own country just in case they might turn them on their occupiers some day.

Was that actually the case or is it an assumption?

Manic Moran

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You really are nothing more than a wind up merchant are you.

Now, now, Fred. You need to at least put a productive comment in there.

That said, the claim does warrant some investigation. One cannot discount the fact that over several decades of Empire, a substantial amount of people were killed by the British. Whether or not that is greater than a single decade of NDSP rule (or Pol Pot, or Stalin or whatever) is another matter entirely.

But on the third hand, this general topic has been done before. If you guys can't get back onto the topic of why Irish people are currently joining the British Army, as opposed to bringing up decades-old incidents, I'm going to just lock the thread.

NTM

Topper Harley

Dilan Shaggy Pinkeye wrote: »

I remember coming across some statistic saying that at the time of the American Civil War, 42% of the British armed forces were Irish born. As this was post-famine, I found it hard to believe.

Can anyone put me right?

Do you mean the American War of Independence rather than the Civil War because the War of Independence was before the famine.

Trooperboyo

Has anyone have any idea if Irish citizens are still mainly signing up to the RIR and IG regs or is there an increase in joining other units, Rifles, PARA, RAF reg ect, or even the RAF or Royal Navy/RM?

LondonIrish90

Trooperboyo wrote: »

Has anyone have any idea if Irish citizens are still mainly signing up to the RIR and IG regs or is there an increase in joining other units, Rifles, PARA, RAF reg ect, or even the RAF or Royal Navy/RM?

I know that there has been a bit of a drive to get more Irishmen into the Royal Irish and Irish Guards in particular due to the top brass being a bit dismayed at how English they had become.

Manic Moran

gatecrash wrote: »

This is why people still bring up things like Bloody Sunday, probably in much the same way the Kent State shootings would be brought up in your adopted homeland.

They don't, though. There's a surprising amount of people who have no association between Kent State and the military. (And even fewer who know the actual details of what happened, beyond Guardsmen shooting at students).

Bloody Sunday is much more ingrained into the Irish psyche than Kent State is in the American one.

NTM

32_4_1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The British army carried out many atrocities, no one could ever deny that, but it never engaged in the systematic slaughter on an industrial scale that the nazis did, it is a joke to claim otherwise.

instead the brits just murdered left, right and centre anywhere they went. and they went a lot further around the world than the nazi's for a far far far far far far etc longer period of time. but hey, keep defending the brits. they ever only had our interests first

delta-boy

I think its great, as I've said already, it shows that some of my generation and a little bit over are saying "f*ck the stereotypes and live life our way".
I am going to go and say I've already been threatened to my face, both passively and forcefully by both close relatives and a scrap with a friend over it one Friday.

Has this put me off, f*ck no its not, yes, our beloved ancestors (who I have 110% respect for) fought and gained partial independence from the British Empire but they fought that for that freedom so it gives me (that future generation) to spend our lives of how we see fit, we arent living in Commie land here, nor Home of the Brave, but a general, intelligent and democratic view is needed when your son/daughter/friend plans to join the British Army.

I or others shouldnt be scorned for wanting to follow a dream.

RMD

I don't want so stir things up, but of the "bar stool Republicans" here, how many of you think the IRA in it's various forms are a noble bunch? Would be interesting to see.

32_4_1

RMD wrote: »

I don't want so stir things up, but of the "bar stool Republicans" here, how many of you think the IRA in it's various forms are a noble bunch? Would be interesting to see.

who thinks the british army are a noble bunch?

32_4_1

delta-boy wrote: »

I think its great, as I've said already, it shows that some of my generation and a little bit over are saying "f*ck the stereotypes and live life our way".
I am going to go and say I've already been threatened to my face, both passively and forcefully by both close relatives and a scrap with a friend over it one Friday.

Has this put me off, f*ck no its not, yes, our beloved ancestors (who I have 110% respect for) fought and gained partial independence from the British Empire but they fought that for that freedom so it gives me (that future generation) to spend our lives of how we see fit, we arent living in Commie land here, nor Home of the Brave, but a general, intelligent and democratic view is needed when your son/daughter/friend plans to join the British Army.

I or others shouldnt be scorned for wanting to follow a dream.

you respect them, but are going to join the army im which your ancestors died at the hands off? thats some show of respect

effluent

32_4_1 wrote: »

you respect them, but are going to join the army im which your ancestors died at the hands off? thats some show of respect

And blowing up your fellow countryman is?

RMD

32_4_1 wrote: »

who thinks the british army are a noble bunch?

I never said the BAF are a noble bunch, they certainly aren't after their history, as I've asked though out of the "barstool Republican" group do any of you hold the IRA in a noble regard?

flash1080

What are "bar stool republicans"? Are they republicans who don't use physical force to end the British occupation of the 6 counties?

effluent

flash1080 wrote: »

What are "bar stool republicans"? Are they republicans who don't use physical force to end the British occupation of the 6 counties?

Not necessarily, I think it implies that people with those views so strong against join the British army would not dare say it face to face with an Irishman serving in the British army because they are too scared so they vent their fustration over the internet or with a group of like minded people in a pub without the chance of hearing a different opinion

p1akuw47h5r3it

delta-boy wrote: »

I think its great, as I've said already, it shows that some of my generation and a little bit over are saying "f*ck the stereotypes and live life our way".
I am going to go and say I've already been threatened to my face, both passively and forcefully by both close relatives and a scrap with a friend over it one Friday.

Has this put me off, f*ck no its not, yes, our beloved ancestors (who I have 110% respect for) fought and gained partial independence from the British Empire but they fought that for that freedom so it gives me (that future generation) to spend our lives of how we see fit, we arent living in Commie land here, nor Home of the Brave, but a general, intelligent and democratic view is needed when your son/daughter/friend plans to join the British Army.

I or others shouldnt be scorned for wanting to follow a dream.

I agree with most of what you say however I wouldn't have much respect for Eamon DeVelera and the other 1916 rebels.

32_4_1 wrote: »

you respect them, but are going to join the army im which your ancestors died at the hands off? thats some show of respect

But surely they died to give us the chance to do what we want with our lives, no?

32_4_1

effluent wrote: »

And blowing up your fellow countryman is?

like who? the uda/uvf with the help of inside intelligence from british security forces which include the british army?

32_4_1

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say however I wouldn't have much respect for Eamon DeVelera and the other 1916 rebels.

But surely they died to give us the chance to do what we want with our lives, no?

is that what you tell yourself to reassure yourself its ok?

delta-boy

32_4_1 wrote: »

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I agree with most of what you say however I wouldn't have much respect for Eamon DeVelera and the other 1916 rebels.



is that what you tell yourself to reassure yourself its ok?

We dont have to reassure ourselves, we know that its okay.

32_4_1

delta-boy wrote: »

32_4_1 wrote: »

We dont have to reassure ourselves, we know that its okay.

then why continue to recycle to same old cliché.

anyway good luck on joining the army who are the main problem of all 3rd world countries problems, who continue an illegal presence in your own country, and who are currently fighting illegal wars for self gain while commiting war crimes

p1akuw47h5r3it

32_4_1 wrote: »

delta-boy wrote: »

then why continue to recycle to same old cliché.

anyway good luck on joining the army who are the main problem of all 3rd world countries problems, who continue an illegal presence in your own country, and who are currently fighting illegal wars for self gain while commiting war crimes

What same old cliche?

And can you give me a reliable soruce that the BA are continuing an "illegal presence in my country" pls. I'm from the republic of Ireland just so you know.

RMD

32_4_1 wrote: »

then why continue to recycle to same old cliché.

anyway good luck on joining the army who are the main problem of all 3rd world countries problems, who continue an illegal presence in your own country, and who are currently fighting illegal wars for self gain while commiting war crimes

What is to gain from Afghanistan? Would you rather let the Taliban have control of the country? I noticed you didn't give any reply on my question on whether you support the IRA or not, are you trying to dodge the tricky questions?

32_4_1

RMD wrote: »

What is to gain from Afghanistan? Would you rather let the Taliban have control of the country? I noticed you didn't give any reply on my question on whether you support the IRA or not, are you trying to dodge the tricky questions?

No. but i will accept there was a need for them at the start of the troubles for quite a few years as the forces who were supposed to be protecting the people, were the same forces attacking the people

32_4_1

DanDan6592 wrote: »

32_4_1 wrote: »

What same old cliche?

And can you give me a reliable soruce that the BA are continuing an "illegal presence in my country" pls. I'm from the republic of Ireland just so you know.

the cliche along the lines of i dont care what people think, and that i dont need to reassure myself. yet these same people spend most of their time going out of their way to tell people that they dont care.

anyway i see the revisionists are back out. of course, conform to the british division of your country and argue their side. your doing your country so proud ha. that is britain incase your wondering

and whats a "republic of" ireland.

p1akuw47h5r3it

32_4_1 wrote: »

DanDan6592 wrote: »

the cliche along the lines of i dont care what people think, and that i dont need to reassure myself. yet these same people spend most of their time going out of their way to tell people that they dont care.

anyway i see the revisionists are back out. of course, conform to the british division of your country and argue their side. your doing your country so proud ha. that is britain incase your wondering

and whats a "republic of" ireland.

We don't go out of our way to say that, we say it if we need too.

The only revisionist seems to be you. Now can you give me a source to back up your claim, yes or no?

Oh ye, the Republic of Ireland, it's the country I live in. What you never heard of it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland

http://www.iol.ie/~dluby/republic.htm:

The Republic of Ireland (Gaelic �ire), republic comprises of about five-sixths of the island of Ireland.

Fratton Fred

32_4_1 wrote: »

delta-boy wrote: »

then why continue to recycle to same old cliché.

anyway good luck on joining the army who are the main problem of all 3rd world countries problems, who continue an illegal presence in your own country, and who are currently fighting illegal wars for self gain while commiting war crimes

What illegal occupation/wars are they involved in? What war crimes are they commiting?