Cancelled My Tracker Did I REALLY Screw up?

Hairymilo

Hi, has anyone who is coming off their fixed rate with UB at the end of the month received a letter from UB yet outlining the choice of new rate's etc

I have not received any correspondence to date.. I would have imagined the letter would have come out sooner than a fortnight before a payment so that they have time to update there systems!

phormium

Don't know where the letter is but it won't have any impact on their systems, the fixed rates will finish and the mortgage will revert to whatever was in original contract, this will happen regardless of whether or not a letter goes out and regardless of what you pick to go to after fixed. If for example you were intending taking a fixed rate again if offered the account would still revert to variable and then would be amended to your new fixed chosen. So no letters going out won't have any impact on UB, it does however delay your option of picking an alternative to what the account naturally reverts too if that is what you want.

Are you due to revert to tracker?

clarsax

Friend coming off a 5 year fixed from UB. From original documentation I knew he was going to roll into a tracker +1.15
His fixed rate ended end july so anticipating a letter; he got his annual statement on Thursday and on Friday the long awaited letter arrived advising that his fixed rate was coming to an end. This doesn't end til 31/8, so it'll be the September pmt that is reduced (by €600!!!)

So, don't be too worried if a letter hasn't arrived yet

Hairymilo

Yeah Im in the same boat Clarsax, much like several of the people who kindly posted on this thread to share their same plight :-(.

So he got a letter on Friday... I should also receive the same letter this week then! Cant believe the 5 years are finally up... actually I can...its been a 5 year nightmare lol!!!

Phormium, thanks for your post also...yes I am due to come back onto Tracker + .85% but Im going through the ringer with them regarding other serious issues.. I wouldnt put it past them to try and do me out of what is rightfully mine!

I read one of the case study's on the Financial Ombudsman's latest report for 2011. The complainant was to come off their 3 yr fixed rate last August ie 31/08/2011 but the bank in question (not mentioned but I know its UB as the Ombudsman quoted some of the text from the complainants Original Offer of Advance that the complainant signed when he drew down the mortgage and its identical to my UB offer of advance and Lucy's and Ronan's etc) tried to shaft the complainant out of his tracker. In the end the Ombudsman upheld the complainants right to the tracker as the banks information was too misleading and not definitive enough..

Roll on September!!!!!

peteb2

clarsax wrote: »

Friend coming off a 5 year fixed from UB. From original documentation I knew he was going to roll into a tracker +1.15
His fixed rate ended end july so anticipating a letter; he got his annual statement on Thursday and on Friday the long awaited letter arrived advising that his fixed rate was coming to an end. This doesn't end til 31/8, so it'll be the September pmt that is reduced (by €600!!!)

So, don't be too worried if a letter hasn't arrived yet

Did it say it the Fixed Rate Agreement that he would be going back on to it? If not I wouldnt be so sure!

phormium

It should be automatic that the mortgage reverts to the rate specified on the original loan offer but I have come across several cases with UB where the rate it reverted to was not the tracker customer was entitled to. Customers kicked up and got the tracker back, it is like someone is altering these accounts when they mature in the hope that they get away with it and the customer doesn't challenge it or notice. So while it should happen automatically you need to double check it when fixed ends.

Hairymilo

As phormium said... These accounts are no doubt being manually altered/managed in the hope the customer does not notice the difference. As a collective were talking 100s of millions of Euro in losses to the banks that offered these mortgages. Its very much in their interest to micro manage their mortgage books manually on a daily basis. In fact its imperative for them to do so!

Wots your situation Peteb2?

peteb2

UB deny that the wording is such that the customer should be back on a tracker. They'll state that that the Home Loan Rate mentioned in an offer of advance is an SVR as they say it is noted in the conditions that any change in the rate will be announced in the paper.

Came off a fixed in 2008 after being on a tracker and was placed on SVR. Obviously in light of recent threads and such I decided to write to the bank and see what they said. Which was the above basically. Problem being that everything is being viewed on a case-by-case basis. I have a friend with the exact same documentation as me in the same position as me. Both of us have written to the FSO with final response letters. Before a need for an adjudication came UB wrote to her and told her they would give it back and 250 quid for her trouble. However, me, they have decided to fight toot and nail. And i will end up having to wait for an adjudication from the FSO and may not get it back! Go figure! So I wouldnt take anything with them as a given!

ronan45

Well Hello again its the OP here with an update!

Well its been a long 5 years and finally got my letter today.

I rang the bank and asked for some help to go through the letter which I told UB i was having difficulty figuring out.

So the lady said no problem and before long Of course i was bamboozled by APR This . LTV that.
(ill admit i am awful at maths and figures etc)

The conversation went like this

Me: Hmm this is quite complicated probably best for me to just go back to what I had before i fixed, keep it simple ya know, What was I on before the 5 year fixed period, Ill go with that one I was happy with that!

UB REP: Let me check that for you sir.............. Hmmm I cant find it on the system, its not coming up on my system.

Long story short no-one was available to tell me what my interest rate was before i fixed in 2005.......
The girl is getting the "other department to send me a letter with that information in it"

Crikey these banks are not very advanced are they lol

Theres been some great success stories here and i think the future is looking bright. Ill Update you lads and lassies as i get more information.

:cool:

Ronan

ronan45

Hairymilo wrote: »

Hi, has anyone who is coming off their fixed rate with UB at the end of the month received a letter from UB yet outlining the choice of new rate's etc

I have not received any correspondence to date.. I would have imagined the letter would have come out sooner than a fortnight before a payment so that they have time to update there systems!

Just today got mine Hairymilo, Whats your story, Did you fix from a tracker?

ronan45

phormium wrote: »

It should be automatic that the mortgage reverts to the rate specified on the original loan offer but I have come across several cases with UB where the rate it reverted to was not the tracker customer was entitled to. Customers kicked up and got the tracker back, it is like someone is altering these accounts when they mature in the hope that they get away with it and the customer doesn't challenge it or notice. So while it should happen automatically you need to double check it when fixed ends.

Hi Phormium, I have been digging out old UB paperwork. I found 2 letters from 2006 and 2007. Both of which say and i quote from Both

27th March 2006
Dear Ronan
We wish to advise you that the European Central Bank rate has increased by 0.25% with effect from 8th March 2006. Your new rate is 3.65
As the interest rate payable on the above mortgage account is a tracker rate linked to the European Central Bank, your monthly repayments will increase.


Am i right or am i wrong thats Definitly a tracker Mortgage right? Crikey Im even beginning to doubt myself lol. Has me demented lol

On todays Letter it says Any borrowings you have on this fixed rate will automatically roll to the STANDARD VARIABLE RATE DEFAULT (APR 4.7%)
Alternatively you might choose a new variable or fixed rate, or Other variable rate (Disc Variable/ Flexible Variable. )

Hairymilo

Hi Ronan,

Yes I too fixed from a tracker of Ecb +.85% like u 2 i think? Havent time to re read the past 5 pages again but I distinctly remember u me and Lucy were on the exact same mortgage!

Just in the door and I too received my option letter which is 7 pages long! Mine is almost identical to yours ie

"Any borrowings you have on this fixed rate will automatically roll to the STANDARD VARIABLE RATE DEFAULT (APR 4.7%)
Alternatively you might choose a new variable or fixed rate, or Other variable rate (Disc Variable/ Flexible Variable. )"

The only difference with mine is that mine reads slightly different from "Alternatively you might... etc.

Mine states in full and I quote word for word....

"Dear Customer(s)

The fixed rate period on your mortgage is coming to an end on 31/08/2012, so now its time to start thinking about your next mortgage deal. Any borrowings you have on this fixed rate will automatically roll to the Standard Variable Rate Default Option (APR 4.7%). Your monthly repayment on this rate is included in the table overleaf.

Alternatively you might choose a new variable or fixed rate. To help you make an informed decision the table below outlines the advantages and disadvantages of the default Standard Variable Rate compared to other variable and fixed rate mortgages."

Ronan can u please confirm if my wording is exact or otherwise to yours please?

Peteb2, your situation compared to your friend sounds brutal but I am not at all surprised!! I have had so many sleepless nights with the pure stress of dealing with this bank. There is no consistency whatsoever!! As you said every case is being dealt with on a case by case basis, the reason being there are so many poor misfortunate "sheep" out there that dont know how to spot what there entitled to or are afraid to go up against the bank as it truly is an exhausting process speaking from my intolerable experience unfortunately!

There's only a handful of people posting on this thread but Im positive there are hundreds if not thousands of other people out there that dont realise they can successfully fight for their Tracker back as they are entitled to it. The wording in our Original Offer Of Advance is too misleading and vague! It clearly states that our "flexible Homeloan Rate is for the life of the mortgage" ...in my case 40 years :-o!!

Peteb2... go to the financial Ombudsman's web page and trawl through his report for 2011.. Its a long document but in there there are 2 or 3 case studies on trackers from im nearly positive UB. They were upheld!

Now the only difference between the court of law and the powers of the ombudsman is that the court of law can make a finding or uphold a ruling with regard to previous cases heard in the courts ie with ref to Connolly V's The State" (for illustrative purposes only) a ruling can be made etc With regard to the ombudsman unfortunately this is not the case... every complaint is on a case by case basis with apparent no reference to previous rulings... In the forward of the Ombudsman's report he makes reference to this as still an obstacle if my recollection is correct?? Sorry people, dont have time to re read it before I post this... but I would advise everyone of u to make the time to read the boring dribble and educate ourselves with regard to this situation just in case we do have to go to the ombudsman!!

Its well worth it as were all stuck with these bloody mortgage's for life, better be on a low rate tracker than a high rate variable as thats the only way the market is going due to the massive losses forcast into the future of Irish Banking! They will jack up the rates 1st chance they get!

Last thing.. Keep your UFirst current a/c's open at all costs!!!!!! U are not entitled to your tracker back if u closed this a/c!!!! EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hairymilo

Pete,

Just re read your post there

"Came off a fixed in 2008 after being on a tracker and was placed on SVR. Obviously in light of recent threads and such I decided to write to the bank and see what they said. Which was the above basically. Problem being that everything is being viewed on a case-by-case basis. I have a friend with the exact same documentation as me in the same position as me. Both of us have written to the FSO with final response letters. Before a need for an adjudication came UB wrote to her and told her they would give it back and 250 quid for her trouble. However, me, they have decided to fight toot and nail. And i will end up having to wait for an adjudication from the FSO and may not get it back! Go figure! So I wouldnt take anything with them as a given!"

Can you elaborate on your dealings with the FSA or Ombudsman or the OMAN for short... Oman I need your help lol... Cheesy i know!!

What are they like to deal with? Did u have a meeting or is all correspondance written etc How long have u been in this process for, how long can it take etc? Cheers Peteb2!

ronan45

Hairmilo

Here is a copy of my first page

Dear Customer,


The fixed rate period on your mortgage is coming to an end on 31/08/2012, so now its time to start thinking about your mortgage deal. Any borrowings you have on this fixed rate will automaticaly roll to the Standard Default Option (APR 4.7%). Your monthly repayment on this rate is included in the table overleaf.

Alternatively you might choose a new variable or fixed rate. To help you make an informed decision the tabel below outlines the advantages and disadvantages of the dafault Standard Variable Rate compared to other variable and fixed rate mortgages.

Fixed rate: ADVANTAGE:-
* your monthly repayments will not change for the set fixed period which makes budgeting easier.
* Even if there is an increase in the ECB base rate ur monthly repayments will not change.
DISADVANTAGE:-

* you wil not benefit if there is a reduction in the ECB base rate.
*if you redeem a fixed rate mortgage prior to the end of the agreed term, a fixed rate breakage fee will be applied.
*thre is a limit on the amount of overpayments/lump sum payments u can make wihout incurring a fixed rate breakage fee.

Standard variable rate: ADVANTAGE:-
*ur rate may decrease if general market rates decrease.
*there is no early repayment charge if u pay ur mortgage off early.
*u can make unlimited regular overpayments or lump sum repayments without incurring any early repayment charge.*by making overpayments or lump sum repayments u will save interests on ur mortgage as well as reducing its term.

DISADVANTAGE:-
*as ur rate is not linked to the ECB base rate, ur ratecan increase at any time even if there is no change in the ECB base rate.
*if the ECB base rate decreses ur rate may not decrease.

OTHER VARIABLE RATE (DISC VARIABLE/FLEXIBLE VARIABLE)
ADVANTAGE:-
*ur rate may decrese i general market rates decrease.
*there is no early repayment charge if u pay ur mortgae off early.
*u can make unlimited regular overpayments or lump sum repayments withour incurring any early repayment charge.
*by making overpayments or lump sum repayments u will save interest on ur mortgage as well as reducing its term.

Disadvantage same as standard variable rate.

peteb2

Harymilo, I would have to look back at all the documenation to tell the time frames. Roughly speaking I started writing to the bank in March. Stupidly i allowed myself to go back and forth a little with them. But got the final response off UB and then wrote to the Oman (if thats what you want to call them) in April enclosing the completed complaint form.
They ask if you want to go to arbitration. I said no.
They then compile what they consider is your complaint and send a copy of their question to the bank for their response. The bank are then given twenty days to respond. At which point the Oman writes back with the response to let you know. You can then make a further submission or await adjudication from the Oman.

Ladylouth

Have been following this thread for a while now as we are in the same boat. Took out a tracker in September 2005, fixed at 4.95percent five years ago and got our letter today. Rang today to ask why tracker rate not offered as one of our options and was told that my complaint would be referred to the Complaints Dept and they will get back to me within a week, so here we go..... We did take financial advice and believe we should be offered a tracker rate now. The UB guy I spoke to today said that his understanding was that when you sign up to fixed you lose tracker. Will keep posting how this goes.

ronan45

Ladylouth wrote: »

Have been following this thread for a while now as we are in the same boat. Took out a tracker in September 2005, fixed at 4.95percent five years ago and got our letter today. Rang today to ask why tracker rate not offered as one of our options and was told that my complaint would be referred to the Complaints Dept and they will get back to me within a week, so here we go..... We did take financial advice and believe we should be offered a tracker rate now. The UB guy I spoke to today said that his understanding was that when you sign up to fixed you lose tracker. Will keep posting how this goes.

Welcome aboard ladylouth:) keep us up to date

Hairymilo

Peteb2 thanks for being frank with your dealings with the Ombudsman! Thinking now the Oman name has definately gotta go...too much of a creepy "Omen" vibe to it... lets just call him by his original title end of story...Apologies!

Welcome to the "tracker gang" Ladylouth.. keep us posted, as we will u ;-).

If you get anywhere with this shower in a week I will personally make a sizable donation to charity!!!! They are full of if's and but's and excuses!! Dont lose sleep this week.... they will no doubt try and drag it out to try and tire u!! Ive been through the ringer with them 4 7 months now... Think Xmas unless u really wanna get nasty, u seem to have to provoke them to get anywhere ie get loud and dirty otherwise they will not react!!!

You only need reference this thread to know what to expect!!!

Best of luck!!!!!!!

Sincerely

Milo

Hairymilo

Ronan,

Just seen your message now after I seen Peteb2's! Sorry!

Yes I can confirm my text reads identical to yours word 4 word!!! They are tarring everybody with the same brush it seems... If we could get Lucy back online or someone else that has gone through this arduous process we may have an ace in the pocket!! Save us alot of time and most importantly of all stress which means more sleep for us all at night which u cannot put a price on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ill pick up with u tomorrow!!

Ps Ronan... Your role playing today on the phone,... I will most definately adopt tomorrow lol! Very cute but it just shows what we are all reduced to!! The Banks level....ie havin to side wind like a snake to avoid detection!!!! It's a game o cat and "very intelligent" mouse from where im lookin!!

Goodnight Jerry lol!

phormium

They are definitely messing with the accounts so and amending them so they dont automatically roll to tracker like they should. I seriously doubt there was anything in the stuff you signed for fixed rate that made it clear you would lose your tracker, ask for a copy of the fixed rate amendment you signed to see where it says that. I doubt it will, it was not an issue back then.

Contacted Lucy to get her back to help!!! Hopefully she will respond.

greenman09

I remember having a customer in querying this exact thing rates came down and he wasn't on a tracker. Saying he was owed this and that and who he was gonna complain to etc. got the paperwork he signed and he'd signed for SVR as at the time it was cheaper by a mere 30e per month. Nothing could be done for him and he remained paying whatever the bank set the rate at. In terms of the few I've read here good luck with it.

Ladylouth

Thanks Ronan and Milo for your messages. Milo, I have dealt with this shower before so if I hear from them in a week it's miracle season for sure! Will keep in touch.

peteb2

In relation to Lucy her documentation was the same as everyone elses and the bank relented before it went as far as the Ombudsman having to make an adjudication (stand to be corrected). And as they do it without any admission of liability there is no precedent and therefore no light she can shine on the matter unfortunately.

ronan45

phormium wrote: »

They are definitely messing with the accounts so and amending them so they dont automatically roll to tracker like they should. I seriously doubt there was anything in the stuff you signed for fixed rate that made it clear you would lose your tracker, ask for a copy of the fixed rate amendment you signed to see where it says that. I doubt it will, it was not an issue back then.

Contacted Lucy to get her back to help!!! Hopefully she will respond.

Phormium a copy of the Text for the Fixed rate agreement we would have all signed. Now the part that may need attention is highlighted. Were all your fixed rate forms worded as such.?


A fixed rate mortgage guarantees the rate on your mortgage will remain unchanged for the fixed rate period, although your payments may alter if you receive. tax relief at source.


You should bear in mind that if, within the fixed rate period, you are considering discharging your mortgage, lodging capital payments to reduce your mortgage, or transferring your mortgage to a different product, you will incur a charge equal to six months interest at the fixed rate or the variable home loan rate, whichever is higher, on any amount prepaid.


If, within three months of redeeming a fixed rate mortgage, you drawdown a new mortgage with ulster bank ireland limited on the same fixed rate terms then, where the amount of drawkown equals or exceeds the amount redeemed the full charge will be refunded, where the drawdown is for a lesser amount than the amount redeemed the refund will be on a pro rata basis.


the fixed rates currently available are:
4.65% * fixed rate until 31/08/2009 (apr 5.2%)
4.65% * fixed rate until 31/08/2010 (apr 5.2%)
4.95% * fixed rate until 31/08/2012 (apr 5.2%)

the above apr's are based on a typical mortgage of .......


At the end of the fixed period: ulster bank Ireland limited may offer to continue the advance for such a period and at such a fixed rate as it may decide. It may also offer alternative available products. If such offer is made and you elect to accept then you must do so in writing, your acceptance to be signed by all parties to the mortgage and to be received by ulster bank Ireland limited if no such offer is made or if an offer is made no acceptance received as prescribed above, then, from the day following the expiry of any option selected above, the ulster bank home loan rate shall apply in accordance with General Condition 2 of the offer of advance originally accepted by you being the Bank's general conditions relating to advances by ulster bank ireland limited house mortgages section, which varies the interest rate, and the said general conditions relating to the advances shall be construed accordingly.


If you wish to transfer to one of the fixed rates above, please tick the box opposite your chosen fixed rate, sign the declaration below (must be signed by all borrowers), and return it to us immediately.


I/We have read the information above regarding early repayment/conversion to another product within the fixed rate period, and the process at expiry of the fixed rate, and request transfer of my/our mortgage to the fixed rate indicated above.


signed dated


signed dated


*The fixed rates above are subject to availability and may be withdrawn at any time, without prior notice.
WARNING: YOUR HOME IS AT RISK IF YOU DO NOT KEEP UP PAYMENTS ON THE MORTGAGE OR OTHER LOAN SECURED ON IT.

ronan45

Ladylouth wrote: »

Thanks Ronan and Milo for your messages. Milo, I have dealt with this shower before so if I hear from them in a week it's miracle season for sure! Will keep in touch.

What i find remarkable is There is no-one in UB that can tell me what mortgage Rate I was on even before I fixed.It has to be on their computer screen it just has to be. (even though i know it was a tracker)
It looks like all our letters came out at once.

Gas thing is, if i had never made this thread and took on face value what i was told by 4 UB staff members. I would have just let it roll to the SVR.
Many thanks to all the other peeps on here. Thanks Carlywogs!

Well its 9.52 and I am now about to ring UB and put it to them that it should revert to the tracker mortgage. Oh and I might just record the conversation.... Only fair as they allways record mine !
Report back in a minute

ronan45

the ulster bank home loan rate shall apply in accordance with General Condition 2 of the offer of advance originally accepted by you

Does anyone have a copy of their original Home loan and what is this condition?
I ordered a copy of the original HOME LOAN OFFER OF ADVANCE and by accident on purpose they sent me my a copy of my FIXED RATE AGREEMENT.......

ronan45

So I rang and was told 100% No chance I would go back to tracker rate.
She said to check the FIXED RATE Agreement and she could send me a copy of that if i didnt have it. In that it states you will go back to standard variable.

It just so happened I have my file in my paw and ask her if she can tell me where excatly it says that on the Fixed rate agreement.
It doesnt say that. With that he told me to send a letter into customer relations which I am about to do

phormium

That exactly says it there in my opinion, the loan should revert to whatever is on the original loan offer, the thing is not to accept anything that comes out on the letter. Once you accept one of those then all bets are off. If you did nothing the loan should go back to tracker if that is what you originally had specified on your loan offer. But it seems they are being amended and not going to original tracker on maturity.

Anyone find a copy of their loan offer?

I have a copy here of a loan offer from June 2005, it is for a Current Account Mortgage which also carried a tracker rate, this mortgage was never fixed or anything but just for example, on the second page under Specific Loan Offer Condition it states ' The interest rate for this loan will not exceed the european central bank rate plus 1.29% subject to the rate adjustment period allowable as set out in the general terms and conditions'

It is a line something similar to that you need to find on your original loan offers, if UB are slow about finding you a copy try your solicitor who might still have a copy on file, assuming you didn't keep your own copy, always keep your own copy!!!

martingriff

ronan45 wrote: »

About 4 years ago I cancelled my tracker and switched to a 5 year fixed, which is nearly over. I heard on the radio that trackers will be loss making for their full duration. Did i Just throw away about 85,000 Euro?
If the ECB go up to say 5% the tracker must go up to reflect that also. But in that case the other banks with the variables may be giving out 8% etc. Was that a HUGE screw up on my part?
Im gonna Puke lol :eek:

If only we we can see into the future however if all the extra you had paid in the last 5 years you could have put in a saving account and now used it on your mortgage you would have saved a lot in interest

phormium

Yes but to be fair no one had a crystal ball, sometimes you win with a fixed rate, sometimes you don't, that's the risk you take.